I honestly have no clue why this hasn’t been implemented yet.
Thieves scream “L2P!” when you can’t avoid their 8k backstabs. Why don’t they get revealed when I tactically block their attack? They are able to spam backstab with zero consequence until my shield stance runs out causing the backstab to land.
The same thing occurs with mace’s counterblow or offhand sword’s reposte. You time it perfect, block his backstab, he doesn’t get revealed, and then he instantly hits you again with the backstab.
If someone has aegis, the thief can strip it by backstabbing and not being revealed, then just backstabbing again. Why?
There is ZERO argument against implementing reveal on block. The only one I would be “I don’t want to think about what I’m doing as a thief. I just want to spam my number 1 until it lands.”
Change Aegis so that it only lasts 3 secs when activated and put a 4 seconds cooldown on it after every succesfull block and we can start discussing about a “reveal” debuff change.
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
Change Aegis so that it only lasts 3 secs when activated and put a 4 seconds cooldown on it after every succesfull block and we can start discussing about a “reveal” debuff change.
Hey, while we’re at it, let’s give Aegis-applying skills a 4 second cooldown!
Change Aegis so that it only lasts 3 secs when activated and put a 4 seconds cooldown on it after every succesfull block and we can start discussing about a “reveal” debuff change.
Hey, while we’re at it, let’s give Aegis-applying skills a 4 second cooldown!
Deal!
(bad comparison is bad)
Right? Having to juke a single class (with one of the lowest HP pools) because of aegis isn’t the end of the world, its not like you cant go into stealth after that 4 seconds is up about a million times.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
yeah and why on the earth I have 3 secs (4 if traited) for position myself right behind my target (cos we know that BS will cause weak dmg otherwise, right?), while my target can have Aegis pre-casted ages before. Where is the skill on blocking my backstab with a pre-casted autoblock skill?
Not talking about that “heavy stealth” thieves cannot contest any point in tPvP, they are just annoying but not usefull at all.
Also it is a long time I don’t see an 8k BS dmg from a thief in tPvP, where almost everyone is specced for survive. And it is not a glass cannon thief I have to worry about when facing the enemy team in tPvP.
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
…
Not talking about that “heavy stealth” thieves cannot contest any point in tPvP, they are just annoying but not usefull at all.
…
Eh. Disagree. Resisting the urge to go on an off-topic rant though.
Using blocks to counter stealth would be one way to at least allow some counter-play. I like the idea.
Are you disagreeing that a point cannot be contested while in stealth?
that’s why we see so many havey stealth thieves in tPvP right? S\D thieves rely so much on stealth true??
And glass cannon Backstab thieves are not heavy stealthers, they just rely on an heavy dmg burst combo like every other glass cannon spec.
Btw for not going out of topic, here people are complaing that thieves should be revealed more often? I agree, just give thieves better out of stealth option like every other class has and I will be so happy to play a non stealth thief that can actually contest or decap some point in tourny
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
Change Aegis so that it only lasts 3 secs when activated and put a 4 seconds cooldown on it after every succesfull block and we can start discussing about a “reveal” debuff change.
I haven’t really played Guardian much so I don’t know how easily accessible Aegis is but if it’s an issue, maybe change Aegis to cause a miss instead of block and only allow blocks to cause Revealed. The OP has a good point in my opinion.
Why does this keep coming up, even in the thief forums this was there for awhile. It is a bad idea.
I am going to give you an example on why this is a bad idea.
“A thief sees a mesmer, the thief uses black powder to burst, and the mesmer uses chaos storm and instantly gets aegis, thief uses his burst, and is revealed.”
Guardians are like the one class that have aegis all the time, but why would a thief fight a bunker guardian, ever? I would be okay with this if revealed was brought down to 3s, but seeing as that wouldn’t really effect anything, this still remains a bad idea. I understand that stealth needs a direct counter but this only effects thieves.
So, I ask why this change?
“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock
Because if you blind,block or evade other classes burst they usually can’t just burst you again. People think this should be how it works with every class.
Because if you blind,block or evade other classes burst they usually can’t just burst you again. People think this should be how it works with every class.
Well, a good thief should try to position themselves to get behind an enemy player, this eats time on stealth. And normally the backstab will be near the end, or at the end of stealth. So, if you have aegis, and it backstab is blocked that’s more time, if you dodge it and turn around thats even more time, and the thief is out of stealth.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to just play against stealth, and not sit there and let the thief hit.
“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock
I don’t understand why it is so hard to just play against stealth, and not sit there and let the thief hit.
While I can see issues with Aegis blocks causing revealed (or anything that can spam blocks), the OP referenced the “mace’s counterblow or offhand sword’s reposte” which I think counts as “playing against stealth”.
Because if you blind,block or evade other classes burst they usually can’t just burst you again. People think this should be how it works with every class.
Well, a good thief should try to position themselves to get behind an enemy player, this eats time on stealth. And normally the backstab will be near the end, or at the end of stealth. So, if you have aegis, and it backstab is blocked that’s more time, if you dodge it and turn around thats even more time, and the thief is out of stealth.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to just play against stealth, and not sit there and let the thief hit.
It has nothing to do with not being able to beat a thief but rather just continuity in how the game is played. Thief’s probably would have to be compensated somehow due to having a tougher time landing there burst on good players but that doesn’t detract from the argument. The point is a thief’s can backstab after backstabbing into a block but a warrior(or any class really) can’t eviscerate till its off cooldown.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to just play against stealth, and not sit there and let the thief hit.
While I can see issues with Aegis blocks causing revealed (or anything that can spam blocks), the OP referenced the “mace’s counterblow or offhand sword’s reposte” which I think counts as “playing against stealth”.
Yes, it does. However if he actually did everything in his power to avoid getting hit by a backstab, he would have avoided it. I mean 8k damage is a lot so he is most likely not a bunker might not have a shield, and easy access to protection.
Because if you blind,block or evade other classes burst they usually can’t just burst you again. People think this should be how it works with every class.
Well, a good thief should try to position themselves to get behind an enemy player, this eats time on stealth. And normally the backstab will be near the end, or at the end of stealth. So, if you have aegis, and it backstab is blocked that’s more time, if you dodge it and turn around thats even more time, and the thief is out of stealth.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to just play against stealth, and not sit there and let the thief hit.
It has nothing to do with not being able to beat a thief but rather just continuity in how the game is played. Thief’s probably would have to be compensated somehow due to having a tougher time landing there burst on good players but that doesn’t detract from the argument. The point is a thief’s can backstab after backstabbing into a block but a warrior(or any class really) can’t eviscerate till its off cooldown.
Uh, well Backstab is on the auto attack, thats is why it’s spammable. I would argue it could cost 1 initiative so its not technically free but does not tax you any initiative. But again, if the OP literally does everything in his/her own power to just avoid it, it does not happen, if anyone does.
“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock
Yes, it does. However if he actually did everything in his power to avoid getting hit by a backstab, he would have avoided it. I mean 8k damage is a lot so he is most likely not a bunker might not have a shield, and easy access to protection.
The thief was dumb enough to try to stab him when he had his mace block up, why is the thief not suppose to be punished for his terrible play like every other class that bursts into a block?
To me it seems just like all those Guardians just want to press 1 button and stay safe, without dodging, without moving, without doing anything while they cannot see their target.
Do you know what?
I’ll start asking things too so I can just enter stealth and be safe without any kind of effort:
If realy Aegis, like it is in the current state, would ever be a counter to stealth:
-I want thieves to be invulnerable while in stealth
-I want those freaking channelled skills to stop following the thieves while in stealth
-I want the revealed debuff to be towned down to 3 secs again in pvp
-I want to constest point in sPvP even when stealthed
and I could go over and over with my requests..
or I can just play my class like it is now and learn to adapt to every situation I encounter instead of calling for nerfs everytime someone outclass me.
good night all and good luck with this topic
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
Yes, it does. However if he actually did everything in his power to avoid getting hit by a backstab, he would have avoided it. I mean 8k damage is a lot so he is most likely not a bunker might not have a shield, and easy access to protection.
The thief was dumb enough to try to stab him when he had his mace block up, why is the thief not suppose to be punished for his terrible play like every other class that bursts into a block?
Didn’t I already describe this? Regardless, if the thief waits or he receives revealed he is going to be out of stealth. The mace block lasts 3 3/4s, that’s longer than an average stealth. Stealth from refuge is 8-10 I believe. But, why would you let that happen?
“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock
Didn’t I already describe this? Regardless, if the thief waits or he receives revealed he is going to be out of stealth. The mace block lasts 3 3/4s, that’s longer than an average stealth. Stealth from refuge is 8-10 I believe. But, why would you let that happen?
The guardian mace is that but the warrior (which the op is) is 1.5s. Pretty sure both blocks only stop one attack anyways and end premature when they do block. Still besides the point. We are talking about continuity, if the dev’s want they can make bs unblockable but drop stealth if the target evades. That just makes sense to me of how the game should be .
Edit:
Mini Ken said it best
“I just blocked his attack, but I have no idea where he is.” How does that make any sense whatsoever?
You trying to kick us while we’re down?
Thats a low blow.
….but…I …kind of actually agree. The thing is however the Thief is not in a place where we can tbh really take these sort of hits. That’s just real tea. If things were improved and reworked simultaneously no problem but no offense to Anet their style of updating so far doesn’t really show that as a possible option. With the thief in this state, I have to ask if there’s actually a practical balance reason for this change or is it just in the name of design. As far as I can tell there is no beneficial balance reason for this given the thiefs current state, so it’s just a “feel good” idea.
It makes sense for the game to play like this, just like it makes sense for channeled attacks to gtfo when you enter stealth. But well if you look at stealth in spvp this makes sense, but isn’t anything necessary for balance. Maybe long term, but given that nerfing quickness was a good idea long term in September and bringing back quickness skills took about two months. S/D buff took something like 4/5 months after it fell into disuse. Eh colour me disinterested in the idea.
Yep, this is one of the dumbest things in the game. Thieves always say how easy it is to avoid backstab and that a good player has plenty of ways to avoid it. And that’s true, there are a lot of ways to avoid backstab. But none of them matter. The thief just sits there and spams 1 until it lands with zero punishment. Skillful use of evade and block mean nothing.
And this crap about “well if you just avoid them for long enough they unstealth and then die super duper easy!!!” Do you seriously expect anyone to buy that? Have you actually tried fighting a d/p thief? If the first 10 backstab attempts don’t land, no problem, they have infinite stealth. Even /d thieves can stealth fairly reliably. And all thieves have easy access to stealth in utilities.
Even if you outlast the initial stealth, it means nothing because the thief can either stay in stealth indefinitely (kitten d/p), or just restealth in four seconds (four seconds where they WON’T be letting you hit them).
This is the problem with thieves. It isn’t their overall power level, it’s that they are so incredibly coddled by the game mechanics and stealth.
This needs to get fixed. I say fixed bc it’s completely broken.
I’ve always thought it was dumb from the moment I made my Thief that I was allowed to just spam the stealth attack over and over through blocks until it finally hits.
I don’t think theifs need any adjustments/nerfs (aside from s/d damage being toned down some would be ok) but it would add some counter play and interactivity if blocks/evades during an attempted attack revealed the thief.
Proud GW2 Esports Guild Admin and Coach. Whisper me for duels, help, or guild invites.
Everyone who does not think this is a legitimate change has simply not played against good thieves.
It is. You know how common it is for thieves of all skill levels to eat the dodge or an egis? It’s a significance change to performance overall and you’re well aware of that. However given how the quickness nerf was handled and the time it took to remedy that. You think the profession can afford a design fix atm?
The only way block/reveal would apply reveal is if the backstab broke through the block/aegis.
This is balanced already. I lose my basi venom and assassin signet to a good aegis/block more than once in a game. That’s punishment enough for failing a burst. There’s no need to reveal a thief. Should warriors get disarmed for 4s if they don’t block anything with shield stance? No, that’s just silly.
Because if you blind,block or evade other classes burst they usually can’t just burst you again. People think this should be how it works with every class.
Well, a good thief should try to position themselves to get behind an enemy player, this eats time on stealth. And normally the backstab will be near the end, or at the end of stealth. So, if you have aegis, and it backstab is blocked that’s more time, if you dodge it and turn around thats even more time, and the thief is out of stealth.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to just play against stealth, and not sit there and let the thief hit.
You don’t need to be behind. Just being from the side is enough as the actual arc for backstab is very generous, just like it is for the ranger’s crossfire which also supposedly requires flanking.
The only way block/reveal would apply reveal is if the backstab broke through the block/aegis.
This is balanced already. I lose my basi venom and assassin signet to a good aegis/block more than once in a game. That’s punishment enough for failing a burst. There’s no need to reveal a thief. Should warriors get disarmed for 4s if they don’t block anything with shield stance? No, that’s just silly.
They are effectively disarmed for the duration of shield stance… while your thief gets to use his defensive mechanic not only defensively but offensively as well as having a much lower recharge on it.
I’m curious, so should I, as a thief, get revealed when I use any shortbow ability because they all have projectile paths that should ‘show’ where the thief is? Should shooting a clusterbomb instantly reveal me before it lands? Should surprise shot reveal me before it hits? Should scorpion wire trigger revealed even if it doesn’t hit a player character after being stutter step juked? Should shadowstep’s return?
Because if ‘knowing where the thief is’ is the criteria for getting a revealed debuff, every single one of those should.
But lets say that’s not the case, and its just the stealth attacks in slot one. That means these skills are the ones effected:
Surprise Shot
Backstab
Sneak Attack
Tactical Strike
The Ripper
Deadly Strike
Venomous Knife
Are people kittening about surprise shot not revealing on block? Sneak attack? Harpoon? Deadly strike? Venomous Knife? The ripper?
No, people are kittening about Tactical strike and Backstab. Note how both of those are the ones with the back-specific hit conditions. Start juking into facestabs and use aegis to kill basi.
I’m curious, so should I, as a thief, get revealed when I use any shortbow ability because they all have projectile paths that should ‘show’ where the thief is? Should shooting a clusterbomb instantly reveal me before it lands? Should surprise shot reveal me before it hits? Should scorpion wire trigger revealed even if it doesn’t hit a player character after being stutter step juked? Should shadowstep’s return?
Because if ‘knowing where the thief is’ is the criteria for getting a revealed debuff, every single one of those should.
But lets say that’s not the case, and its just the stealth attacks in slot one. That means these skills are the ones effected:
Surprise Shot
Backstab
Sneak Attack
Tactical Strike
The Ripper
Deadly Strike
Venomous Knife
Are people kittening about surprise shot not revealing on block? Sneak attack? Harpoon? Deadly strike? Venomous Knife? The ripper?
No, people are kittening about Tactical strike and Backstab. Note how both of those are the ones with the back-specific hit conditions. Start juking into facestabs and use aegis to kill basi.
Sure, why not.. And while we’re at it, make it so that when a Mesmer casts a phantasm in stealth it reveals them too. The answer to what you asked is yes…. Attacking while in stealth by using aoes and non-damage attacks is (I’d assume a bug and/or bad design) because any single target attack reveals you. No one wants to get attacked by an invisible target… there’s no counter play to that.
Thieves are the worst designed class in the game; Perma stealths, all of their attacks are spammy which gives really overpowered effects, so many of their attacks are spammable evades, they’re too kitten squishy BECAUSE of all of the cheesy set ups, if they weren’t they’d be useless, so yes. There isn’t much good about thieves, INCLUDING, yes you guys are too passively squishy…
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
What rank is the OP? 12? Seriously, shield block/aegis in conjunction with stealth end skills is balanced. What you are asking is a nerf to thief, again.
What rank is the OP? 12? Seriously, shield block/aegis in conjunction with stealth end skills is balanced. What you are asking is a nerf to thief, again.
I’m quite high on the leaderboards, and I really don’t have many issues fighting thieves but I can agree that thieves have WAY too much reward for their risk… miss? np keep spamming. Thieves are horribly built, it doesn’t matter what rank you play at.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
What rank is the OP? 12? Seriously, shield block/aegis in conjunction with stealth end skills is balanced. What you are asking is a nerf to thief, again.
I think kitten near everyone who plays this game (except for cheese mode thieves) would be perfectly fine with thieves getting some buffs in exchange for their stealth mechanics getting significantly reduced.
What rank is the OP? 12? Seriously, shield block/aegis in conjunction with stealth end skills is balanced. What you are asking is a nerf to thief, again.
I think kitten near everyone who plays this game (except for cheese mode thieves) would be perfectly fine with thieves getting some buffs in exchange for their stealth mechanics getting significantly reduced.
and weapon evades.
However, while I agree thieves need better defense passively and less stealth/evades. You have to also realize many of you thieves who cry about “thieves are too squishy” are running berserker… Yeah, they’re all like that. o.O Most zerkers don’t have spammable ccs, stealths and blinds…
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Stealth is a broken and awful mechanic that should’ve never made into a serious pvp game in the first place. Anet has to come up with something less cheesy to help thiefs…
And of course stealth isn’t the only cheesy thing in the game, but it’s what we’re talking about right now, so I won’t mention all the other stuff…
Make stealth break on ANY skill use and remove/limit the stackability via combo fields/finishers.
There. Balanced.
Or better, remove stealth altogether.
If you let it break on every skill, only shadow refuge would provide a longer stealth then ~5s. Not bad imho, you just dont need to balance the stackability since you use mostly a skill in stealth to stack.
yeah and why on the earth I have 3 secs (4 if traited) for position myself right behind my target (cos we know that BS will cause weak dmg otherwise, right?), while my target can have Aegis pre-casted ages before. Where is the skill on blocking my backstab with a pre-casted autoblock skill?
where is the brain? hit target to remove aegis then stealth? where has brain gone
yeah and why on the earth I have 3 secs (4 if traited) for position myself right behind my target (cos we know that BS will cause weak dmg otherwise, right?), while my target can have Aegis pre-casted ages before. Where is the skill on blocking my backstab with a pre-casted autoblock skill?
where is the brain? hit target to remove aegis then stealth? where has brain gone
I already do this mate, every time.. do not come here and try to teach me how to play my thief.
But where is the skill on activaing Aegis at the right time, when I can just activate it and forget about it?
as I said make Aegis only lasts 3 seconds (4 if traited), just like every stealth skill, give it 4 secs of cooldown after a succesfull block and then we can talk about how to change the reveal debuff for the thief.
it’s too easy to come here and make false statements ( 8k BS and perma stealth thief don’t go together mate), or just scream for unjustified nerfs on an already nerfed class (of course talking about tPvP not WvW), without looking at the matter from the thief point of view.
Thieves cannot contest while in stealth, they are not like engis that can easily decap points even if they don’t kill the bunker, or immortal 1v1 BM rangers.
A perma stealth thief is not a glass cannon thief and even if the build might seem OP in an 1v1 situation, that kind of build takes too long for killing anyone that is not specced glass, and in a tourney situation that is just a waste of time during which the enemy team still make points holding the base.
If you raise up your damage a bit, then your survivability will drop down drastically as a thief and even then you will need support for killing everyone not specced as a glass cannon.
have you ever wonder why the most common spec in tourneys is S\D? not because of stealth, but because it is the only spec that can give to the thief some survivability (with dodges) without relying heavily on stealth and stealth hp regen.
if a party of 5 heavy stealther d\p thieves meets a party of 5 bunker guardians, try to guess who will make more points capping and holding bases for the Whole match while those thieves try to land their bs and then stealth again for survive.
Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!
There is no skill involved in blocking attacks from stealth. You CAN’T see them! How does someone so skilled evade a stealth attack? Come one! Use your brains.
I play thief manily and I’m all up for this change!
If it’s obvious someone is blocking or will block because of aegis you should switch target, switch priorities or just wait.
On the other hand, aegis lasts too long right now.
Why does this keep coming up, even in the thief forums this was there for awhile. It is a bad idea.
I am going to give you an example on why this is a bad idea.
“A thief sees a mesmer, the thief uses black powder to burst, and the mesmer uses chaos storm and instantly gets aegis, thief uses his burst, and is revealed.”
Guardians are like the one class that have aegis all the time, but why would a thief fight a bunker guardian, ever? I would be okay with this if revealed was brought down to 3s, but seeing as that wouldn’t really effect anything, this still remains a bad idea. I understand that stealth needs a direct counter but this only effects thieves.
So, I ask why this change?
Guardians have aegis all the time..
Virtue of courage with 20 trait point assigned gives instant A.o.E aegis on 75 second cool down
Retreat gives aegis for 24 seconds on a 48 second cool down if traited for 20% cool down reduction on shouts.
Guardians can gain an extra aegis when their health drops below 50% (No stated internal cool down in description) If you go down that trait line to master trait passives.
They can also gain aegis when rallied from down state via virtue of courage being renewed (If you go down that trait line enough to adept level.)
So in theory they can have up to 3 if they carry specific skills and traits in the right trait lines. However they can only renew 2 of them every 75 seconds..and an outside one if they get rally.
It is not over powered in any way, and it is far from the truth of your original statement. Just say’n.
yeah and why on the earth I have 3 secs (4 if traited) for position myself right behind my target (cos we know that BS will cause weak dmg otherwise, right?), while my target can have Aegis pre-casted ages before. Where is the skill on blocking my backstab with a pre-casted autoblock skill?
where is the brain? hit target to remove aegis then stealth? where has brain gone
I already do this mate, every time.. do not come here and try to teach me how to play my thief.
But where is the skill on activaing Aegis at the right time, when I can just activate it and forget about it?
as I said make Aegis only lasts 3 seconds (4 if traited), just like every stealth skill, give it 4 secs of cooldown after a succesfull block and then we can talk about how to change the reveal debuff for the thief.
You sir, are definitely not a pro player. Do you know cd of aegis skills? Hm? I’ll say it. 90/70 seconds. And if it is 70 seconds, it means that there are much more ways to use guard’s F3 than blocking backstabs. ~4 seconds of stability or/and stunbreaker. If you want to NERF AEGIS (lold) then appropriate change to stealth would be increasing revealed duration to 60 seconds. Problems?
HoT is just a cash grab.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.
