Guild Wars 2

Hi i am Ender and this is my opinion on bunker comp. By Bunker comps i am talking about double warr cheese support staff ele bunker guard and insert class here.

Bunker comps are not fun to watch on a stream and not fun to play against. They rely on cycling into points holding neuts until they can gain a cap and killing people out of attrition.

Comps like this kill the game because players don’t feel like they are getting outplayed, just getting outcomped. Teams like Kpz and Apex while they do have good players on it many of the matches they win with such disparaging scores are more reflective of their comp rather than their players. The fact that Kpz put together their comp the day before the tournament and beat the best team in the game that wasn’t running a kitten comp Outplayed by Children says a lot about the current state of conquest. When the casters were casting ToL they kept speaking of coordinated burst to kill people. This statement is false and let me explain why

YOU cannot burst a bunker
thats why they are called bunkers
When a team is full of bunkers they just sustain each other, so any balanced comp will lose against it. The only comp i can think of that would beat it would be mesmer, power necrox2 , thief and insert x power class here. Even then they would have to outplay the bunker comp to the 9th power.

This bunkers and asuras problem really kill the mood for ToL.

When I watched the ToL EU, it was fun because of all the rotation and fun combat.
On ToL NA, it’s just a bunch of people poking each other. They don’t win by rotation (which is fun to watch). They won using bunkers and asuras.

Such a shame.

P.S: this game has no dismissing return for CC. 2 hambow is too strong.

Just to emphasize this point me and aero bursted apex’s staff ele in best of 8 to 10% health and then immediately healed to full, you can watch the vod if u want its at the beginning, prtty depressing

I agree. Watching condi-bunkers/sustained fighters whack away at each other to no avail is not fun to watch and not fun to play. Imo it’s infact the exact opposite of what Guild Wars 2 combat set out to achieve when they originally designed it.

It was supposed to be about “active combat”, reading and anticipating your opponents moves and reacting accordingly. This is just simply not the case in this bunker-meta where duels last minutes, not seconds and players die to attrition, not targeted burst.

To me it’s just a sign that defense scales too well when you stack multiple effect and the down-sides just aren’t there. Especially when you add in team-effects it’s too easy to reach a point where nothing dies and the relative ease of reviving compared to finishing really exasperates the issue.

But contrary to what you might instinctively do, I think Bunker Guardians, rather than condition bunkers enable this type of play. If ANet wants to shift the meta away from such game-play they’d best start by nerfing the bunker-Guardian support and sustain.

better than watching “some1” run a known bug in a featured tournament.

Me and my guild were messing around with a burst comp and we had some success vs bunker comps. We were mostly messing around but when we got serious we won most of our games. I was running what I’m calling The Bunker Buster which is essentially a new version of what Warriors ran at the start of the game. You can only use the big burst once every minute but it can instantly kill squishy targets and get bunkers down to below 25%. We also had a Meditation guard and a Warrior running something similar to me.

So long as we were smart with our rotations 2 of us were able to blow up any tough target very quickly. It’s not an easy team to run and you probably noticed my build is really vulnerable after the initial burst but I could see running a support Ele and a bunker guard with it being really solid. Of course I have no idea how this would work at “high level” play.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Me and my guild were messing around with a burst comp and we had some success vs bunker comps. We were mostly messing around but when we got serious we won most of our games. I was running what I’m calling The Bunker Buster which is essentially a new version of what Warriors ran at the start of the game. You can only use the big burst once every minute but it can instantly kill squishy targets and get bunkers down to below 25%. We also had a Meditation guard and a Warrior running something similar to me.

So long as we were smart with our rotations 2 of us were able to blow up any tough target very quickly. It’s not an easy team to run and you probably noticed my build is really vulnerable after the initial burst but I could see running a support Ele and a bunker guard with it being really solid. Of course I have no idea how this would work at “high level” play.

Soo are you still thinking about quitting? Are warriors still in a bad place in this “Condi-Meta”? Just looking for hyperbolic advice I just see people talking about double War comps so I am confused by your previous expert warrior perspective.

Buff boon stripping on necro/mes

Can someone explain why NOBODY pulled out a decap engie to out-cheeze this comp? Decap engie can easily OWN 2 bunkers and keep a point neuted, or capped vs. 1 by playing a better player vs. point role.

If they are gonna go tanky, no condis, no burst, I fail to see how this build wouldn’t own.

Also, people weren’t playing very well against the staff eles. Save interrupts for ether renewal. If you ’rupt that, you win. S/P thief would be IDEAL in these roles:

1. HEAVILY punish them when they try to group res.
2. Interrupt ANY heal (like ether renewal, healing breeze) with either S3 or P4 if NOT covered by stab.
3. Save that traited steal to interrupt the heal that is covered by stab. You don’t have to get max-burst at the start of the fight, just apply steady pressure to force a heal, THEN burst!

Bunker staff ele is very weak to focus-fire, you just have to have the right specs. Also, something like power ranger going “pew pew pew pew” from the side (after magnetic aura) is incredibly annoying.

Corrupt boon on that stab-covered heal = GG.

oZii.2864:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Me and my guild were messing around with a burst comp and we had some success vs bunker comps. We were mostly messing around but when we got serious we won most of our games. I was running what I’m calling The Bunker Buster which is essentially a new version of what Warriors ran at the start of the game. You can only use the big burst once every minute but it can instantly kill squishy targets and get bunkers down to below 25%. We also had a Meditation guard and a Warrior running something similar to me.

So long as we were smart with our rotations 2 of us were able to blow up any tough target very quickly. It’s not an easy team to run and you probably noticed my build is really vulnerable after the initial burst but I could see running a support Ele and a bunker guard with it being really solid. Of course I have no idea how this would work at “high level” play.

Soo are you still thinking about quitting? Are warriors still in a bad place in this “Condi-Meta”? Just looking for hyperbolic advice I just see people talking about double War comps so I am confused by your previous expert warrior perspective.

I just don’t take the game seriously as far as competition goes anymore. I just run with guildies using odd comps and we just decided “we hate bunkers, let’s run crazy burst.” I still see plenty of MM’s, Condi/pushback Engis, Spirit Rangers, and other builds that are just plain boring to fight. In our group if you’re condi, expect to be bursted down first even if it’s not the best option. People call Warrior a “passive” class almost purely because we don’t generally press a button to heal yet I see so many specs that can be boiled down to “put red circles on another small circles” or “let the AI do it.” Those seem much more passive than 90% of Warrior specs, especially mine which doesn’t even use Healing Signet.

BurrTheKing.8571:

oZii.2864:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Me and my guild were messing around with a burst comp and we had some success vs bunker comps. We were mostly messing around but when we got serious we won most of our games. I was running what I’m calling The Bunker Buster which is essentially a new version of what Warriors ran at the start of the game. You can only use the big burst once every minute but it can instantly kill squishy targets and get bunkers down to below 25%. We also had a Meditation guard and a Warrior running something similar to me.

So long as we were smart with our rotations 2 of us were able to blow up any tough target very quickly. It’s not an easy team to run and you probably noticed my build is really vulnerable after the initial burst but I could see running a support Ele and a bunker guard with it being really solid. Of course I have no idea how this would work at “high level” play.

Soo are you still thinking about quitting? Are warriors still in a bad place in this “Condi-Meta”? Just looking for hyperbolic advice I just see people talking about double War comps so I am confused by your previous expert warrior perspective.

I just don’t take the game seriously as far as competition goes anymore. I just run with guildies using odd comps and we just decided “we hate bunkers, let’s run crazy burst.” I still see plenty of MM’s, Condi/pushback Engis, Spirit Rangers, and other builds that are just plain boring to fight. In our group if you’re condi, expect to be bursted down first even if it’s not the best option. People call Warrior a “passive” class almost purely because we don’t generally press a button to heal yet I see so many specs that can be boiled down to “put red circles on another small circles” or “let the AI do it.” Those seem much more passive than 90% of Warrior specs, especially mine which doesn’t even use Healing Signet.

The game could really do for some GvG leagues, community ran or otherwise. Allow them to set their own rules, and times.

Could have fun stuff like 4 month long leagues with specific rule sets and have matches every weekend with prize pools for the teams with specific ladder ranks.

TTPvP and just some leaderboards, and the occasional officially ran tourney like ToL is getting really stale.

100% agree…………………………………….

Zepidel.5349:

BurrTheKing.8571:

oZii.2864:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Me and my guild were messing around with a burst comp and we had some success vs bunker comps. We were mostly messing around but when we got serious we won most of our games. I was running what I’m calling The Bunker Buster which is essentially a new version of what Warriors ran at the start of the game. You can only use the big burst once every minute but it can instantly kill squishy targets and get bunkers down to below 25%. We also had a Meditation guard and a Warrior running something similar to me.

So long as we were smart with our rotations 2 of us were able to blow up any tough target very quickly. It’s not an easy team to run and you probably noticed my build is really vulnerable after the initial burst but I could see running a support Ele and a bunker guard with it being really solid. Of course I have no idea how this would work at “high level” play.

Soo are you still thinking about quitting? Are warriors still in a bad place in this “Condi-Meta”? Just looking for hyperbolic advice I just see people talking about double War comps so I am confused by your previous expert warrior perspective.

I just don’t take the game seriously as far as competition goes anymore. I just run with guildies using odd comps and we just decided “we hate bunkers, let’s run crazy burst.” I still see plenty of MM’s, Condi/pushback Engis, Spirit Rangers, and other builds that are just plain boring to fight. In our group if you’re condi, expect to be bursted down first even if it’s not the best option. People call Warrior a “passive” class almost purely because we don’t generally press a button to heal yet I see so many specs that can be boiled down to “put red circles on another small circles” or “let the AI do it.” Those seem much more passive than 90% of Warrior specs, especially mine which doesn’t even use Healing Signet.

The game could really do for some GvG leagues, community ran or otherwise. Allow them to set their own rules, and times.

Could have fun stuff like 4 month long leagues with specific rule sets and have matches every weekend with prize pools for the teams with specific ladder ranks.

TTPvP and just some leaderboards, and the occasional officially ran tourney like ToL is getting really stale.

The map design really hurts TPvP if you ask me. It needs to have larger capture points and the ability for 2 players to cap over 1 tanky enemy, at a slower speed of course. They could also do with more interesting environmental mechanics just not on the level of Skyhammer. Something like destructible graves on Foefire that can be used to break LoS. Just minor things that spice things up without cheesey insta-kills like falling to your death. I think a TF2 stlye capture point mode would also be worthwhile as well. It would make things more focused and therefore easier to stream and if the zones are large then you could actually tell wtf was going on.

The fact that there is STILL no GvG is pretty nuts. I mean, PvP in general was such a huge part of GW1 the lack of variety in GW2 still surprises me.

You are talking about Apex not just bunker comps…. You do what ever you have to do to win. It doesn’t matter how you do it as long as you do it. I’m a Champion.

Oh Oh 1 more thing the group of players on Apex have always and i mean always been doing good in Gw2 in dps comps, semi tanky comps, BUNKERS COMPS you name it we have always been on top.

To die in 2 seconds is better?

Like if were to play to make “You guys” Happy we could run 5 dps and yeah it’s awesome and it’s better to watch but that doesn’t win games.

Sadly its really amusing how just a few tournaments ago Staff ele was looked down on and with the new patch, Eles support gained a 10% buff to heals, and “now its over powered” because of the Monk runes. But some really don’t understand that the monk runes are actually worse in terms of survival since Dwyana is better. A Staff ele is not a tank build with 1,659 toughness and 13,805 HP.
If you are going to sit there and talk about my staff ele build, Get it straight first. The build is SUSTAIN, not tank. As for the people who don’t agree get a team together, run the same comp as APeX, We’ll see you in team queue to show that it isn’t the comp that makes the player, its’ the skills of them.

Tupi.2967:

To die in 2 seconds is better?

Full glass builds should not ever die in 2 seconds, every class as far I know has active mitigation that glass builds rely on that if used you will never die that fast even if you have 0 toughness and 10k hp.

mesmer can chain 5 seconds of invun? on top of blink, decoy, portal… the only way you die in two seconds is if you are terrible

Thief has blind and stealth, teleports….

Warriors have 4 sec invuln

Glass vs Glass fights usually last like 8-10 seconds, most of the time no one dies and someone disengages before they die, to meet back up with their team as your shouldn’t ever be playing 1v1 john rambo in full zerk.

QtHman.6502:

Like if were to play to make “You guys” Happy we could run 5 dps and yeah it’s awesome and it’s better to watch but that doesn’t win games.

Run 5 shatter mes, that would be so fun to watch, and the other team wouldn’t ever have any boons

So much complaining omy keep it coming and maybe you’ll win a tourny

QtHman.6502:

Oh Oh 1 more thing the group of players on Apex have always and i mean always been doing good in Gw2 in dps comps, semi tanky comps, BUNKERS COMPS you name it we have always been on top.

You forgot to mention about being on top at EXPLOITING BUGS (in this ToL).

December.3946:

QtHman.6502:

Oh Oh 1 more thing the group of players on Apex have always and i mean always been doing good in Gw2 in dps comps, semi tanky comps, BUNKERS COMPS you name it we have always been on top.

You forgot to mention about being on top at EXPLOITING BUGS (in this ToL).

Can you name 1 of the bugs that we exploited since you know so much?

Use your heads a little and 1 up them instead of complain.

QtHman.6502:

December.3946:

QtHman.6502:

Oh Oh 1 more thing the group of players on Apex have always and i mean always been doing good in Gw2 in dps comps, semi tanky comps, BUNKERS COMPS you name it we have always been on top.

You forgot to mention about being on top at EXPLOITING BUGS (in this ToL).

Can you name 1 of the bugs that we exploited since you know so much?

Morfeus knows.

That’s what i thought.

QtHman.6502:

That’s what i thought.

Are you saying you knew your teammate was exploiting a bug?

He’s saying you dont know what you’re talking about

December.3946:

QtHman.6502:

That’s what i thought.

Are you saying you knew your teammate was exploiting a bug?

No i’m saying that i knew you wasn’t gonna be able to answer my question since you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Kevin.5610:

Sadly its really amusing how just a few tournaments ago Staff ele was looked down on and with the new patch, Eles support gained a 10% buff to heals, and “now its over powered” because of the Monk runes. But some really don’t understand that the monk runes are actually worse in terms of survival since Dwyana is better. A Staff ele is not a tank build with 1,659 toughness and 13,805 HP.
If you are going to sit there and talk about my staff ele build, Get it straight first. The build is SUSTAIN, not tank. As for the people who don’t agree get a team together, run the same comp as APeX, We’ll see you in team queue to show that it isn’t the comp that makes the player, its’ the skills of them.

Could you please share your build? :P

I like making things up when i lose/suck also December can we be frands n have story time? :O

QtHman.6502:

Oh Oh 1 more thing the group of players on Apex have always and i mean always been doing good in Gw2 in dps comps, semi tanky comps, BUNKERS COMPS you name it we have always been on top.

I wasn’t insulting nor making derogatory remarks against the players on Apex. I was complaining about the fact that Bunky comps are NOT fun to play against or i would assume fun to play. I am upset about the fact that Bunky/sustain comps in general take less skill than burst and are more rewarding than high burst comps because the amount of errors you can make and be punished are far less than that of a burst comp.

I like getting outplayed and seeing what I can improve upon, Its always entertaining to watch a great play unfold by an enemy team and say “kitten .” I like learning from mistakes
Not fun to fight over a node where your enemy out sustains you and brainlessly spams aoe on point, its just not.

I understand you have a moto to win and do whatever it takes, i am not taking away from that. This is addressed to Anet to nerf stupid Bunky sustain builds. Its silly that a tanky warrior can get 25 stacks of might and still have 3k toughness.

QtHman.6502:

December.3946:

QtHman.6502:

That’s what i thought.

Are you saying you knew your teammate was exploiting a bug?

No i’m saying that i knew you wasn’t gonna be able to answer my question since you don’t know what you’re talking about.

The forum prohibits me from revealing a bug. If you talk to Morfeus, I am sure he’ll be glad to let you know.

And it’s “You weren’t”* by the way.

QtHman.6502:

December.3946:

QtHman.6502:

That’s what i thought.

Are you saying you knew your teammate was exploiting a bug?

No i’m saying that i knew you wasn’t gonna be able to answer my question since you don’t know what you’re talking about.

He was talking about Healing Breeze.

December.3946:

QtHman.6502:

December.3946:

QtHman.6502:

That’s what i thought.

Are you saying you knew your teammate was exploiting a bug?

No i’m saying that i knew you wasn’t gonna be able to answer my question since you don’t know what you’re talking about.

The forum prohibits me from revealing a bug. If you talk to Morfeus, I am sure he’ll be glad to let you know.

And it’s “You weren’t”* by the way.

Thank you for the Grammar check

Can you please present evidence of Ellusive using such exploit?
Seems like you just admitted exploiting a bug!

I can understand the frustration when scissors run into rock but the complaining about it doesn’t help.

To say any team, but the team that won was the “best team” is simply not true. You could argue that mechanically some teams are better than others but that is only considering one aspect of the game. Just having some of the best Solo queue players doesn’t mean the team will be great.

I agree with Hman on this, which takes a page straight from David Sirlin’s “Playing to Win.” (Any young gamer who hasn’t read this should take the time to do so)

Apex Prime has not broken any rules in the tourney. They want to win, and thus play to win, even at the cost of possibly a more enjoyable game and their reputation in the community. It’s their choice, and if we can’t beat them and refuse to play such a comp at those costs, then that lies on us.

I’m not defending Apex. I too am really quite frustrated at playing such a bunker comp. Believe me, 2k back stabs were just heartbreaking to watch. I hope anet takes a look at this tourney and possibly make some changes based off these results in the next patch.

My point is…we can’t blame Apex for using a composition or exploiting supposed bugs. They aren’t breaking any rules…bugs are really on anet’s end and there was no mention of that on Blu’s end. I hope and believe this is what my teammates ender and physics are trying to say.

Sadly for you guys we had a Dev make sure that it wasn’t bugged and it was working as intended so you can make all the comments that you want.

And I’m done talking on the forums I’m not about to go and make a drama fest here for no reason pm if you guys want to keep going at it.

How is Healing Breeze bugged? You guys are aware that it received a stealth buff last patch so now it scales better with Healing Breeze, right?

The tooltip is still incorrect, but the skill itself is working as intended. We even spoke to a developer about it and he said it did not seem to be overhealing.

Aeroxe.8140:

Apex Prime has not broken any rules in the tourney. They want to win, and thus play to win, even at the cost of possibly a more enjoyable game and their reputation in the community. It’s their choice, and if we can’t beat them and refuse to play such a comp at those costs, then that lies on us.

I’m not defending Apex. I too am really quite frustrated at playing such a bunker comp. Believe me, 2k back stabs were just heartbreaking to watch. I hope anet takes a look at this tourney and possibly make some changes based off these results in the next patch.

My point is…we can’t blame Apex for using a composition or exploiting supposed bugs. They aren’t breaking any rules…bugs are really on anet’s end and there was no mention of that on Blu’s end. I hope and believe this is what my teammates ender and physics are trying to say.

Thank you Aeroxe.

Willson.8170:

Just to emphasize this point me and aero bursted apex’s staff ele in best of 8 to 10% health and then immediately healed to full, you can watch the vod if u want its at the beginning, prtty depressing

you do realize he has a tiny health pool, no armor… and lots of healing power, OF COURSE it’s not hard to burst him down, and it’s not hard to get a nearly full heal.

Also, take a look at the approximate armor/health ratios on APeX members:

Morfeus – 2400 armor on Guardian
Hman – 2500 armor on Warrior
Chubbs Z – 2500 armor, 13800 hp on Elementalist
Anas Tarcis – 3000 armor, 26000 hp on Warrior
Nnight – 2400 armor on Ranger

One legitimate bunker in Tarcis, two supports, two damage.
But yeah, 5 bunkers.. right.

It’s like getting into a LoL tourney and whining about how teams that don’t play 5 AD carries are boring to watch. It’s ridiculous.

Don’t know why I have to reiterate this so many times

Not insulting apex
I am frustrated with bunker comps
Anet please nerf bunkers specifically ham bow/sustain specs
Make players have a choice between being bunky and doing damage 25stack might warrior that hits for 5k on a squishy target while having 3k toughness is op.
Kinda proves the point that the game is imba when the two teams in the finals had nearly the exact same comp.
Once again not insulting and trying to degrade the skill and coordination of apex, they are very good. I am just frustrated with the comp.

I think it’s just too easy to get might. It allows tanky specs to actually do damage, both condi and direct.

I apologize for pointing fingers. Healing Breeze apparently has a hidden effect that the tooltip does not display.

No worries we’re all good <3

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

I think it’s just too easy to get might. It allows tanky specs to actually do damage, both condi and direct.

Mesmer has some really good boon removal, but I don’t think there was even a single mesmer in any of the ToL finals or semi finals. Devs seem to want to make gs 3 a 2 or 3 boon removal from 1, which would add even more on top of what we have with sword auto, our utilities, and shatter stripping.

I really enjoyed the finals, it was exciting. Especially the 3 cap that sealed the deal at the end. Y’all act like apex did something wrong and stole something. You gotta understand from a players perspective, if it wins games, we will use it, simple. These guys aren’t playing to “give a good show” the show is on anet’s part. The players play to win and win at any costs even if it means running unconventional builds.

Congrats to apex, I’m hoping they have more qualifier tournaments and ToL In Months to follow.

SgtJanitor.3164:

Also, take a look at the approximate armor/health ratios on APeX members:

Morfeus – 2400 armor on Guardian
Hman – 2500 armor on Warrior
Chubbs Z – 2500 armor, 13800 hp on Elementalist
Anas Tarcis – 3000 armor, 26000 hp on Warrior
Nnight – 2400 armor on Ranger

One legitimate bunker in Tarcis, two supports, two damage.
But yeah, 5 bunkers.. right.

It’s like getting into a LoL tourney and whining about how teams that don’t play 5 AD carries are boring to watch. It’s ridiculous.

Where can I see the specs and gear?

All of this represents the problem with NA as I have mentioned plenty of times.

First of all I would like to explain the fact that bunker is a vague term and automatically puts the mentality of “tanky” into many peoples minds. So what is the true meaning of bunker? Bunker is someone who can take a lot of by having high toughness/armor and some sort of sustain.

None of us are bunkers besides essentially Tarcis based on that definition. You guys are confusing sustain and peeling for one another with boons and healing as bunkers. I have the same amount of toughness on my healing spec as I do my dps spec. You guys focus to much on QQing as opposed to seeing whats really happening in front of you. For example, Ender made a post about how he and Aeroxe Bursted our ele to 8% within a second and was instantly back to full. Well yes…..he has low hp and low toughness so you can do that, but we saw it coming and I used cds to heal him + he used his heal. I had to sacrafice cd’s and you guys were to mad about how hes back at full rather then realizing what just happened.

As far as our comp:

Chubbsz- mained ele since hes has been in playing team que at a high level

Hman- Been playing warrior since day 1 until HB got nerfed but its still his main class

Tarcis- Played warrior since day 1 and hardly any other class

Me- Played Guardian since day 1 and others but mostly guardian

Nnight- plays any class he feels we need to succeed.

Essentially all our classes we are playing and our comp was made because we’ve been playing them as our main since day 1. Our comp also came around by building it to what we deemed necessary and luckily it fit our main classes. If you really want all of us to be on our main class, Nnight could go back to warrior but you guys would QQ about triple warrior. We’ve played less sustained comps and still were on top for a while and even ran a terrible comp in the trap ranger/ele meta and still won games 500-xx.

My point is our classes got buffed and we run what is best and built our comp based on what everyone was best at. No one in our team plays theif, so thats why we don’t have a theif. But why belittle ourselves to make you guys happy, and allow other teams to have an easier chance of winning when we REALLY want to win. Nthx. If this was a tourney for a million dollars, I’m sure everyone would run the most optimal thing.

As far as the HB remark……………I don’t think you realize how dumb your rationalization is lol. First of all, I have been running HB since the day before the vVv tourney and I have vods to prove it. I ran it because of shelter is a selfish heal and I hate selfish builds. I wanted to be able to peel better for my teammates as I came into teamfights or in skirmishes. Shelter is useless if you not getting focused. There are other things I thought about when I decided to use it but I also heard it was getting scaled better with healing power + the initial heal when they gave a preview of the upcoming balance patch. SO MAYBE if you weren’t so blinded you would’ve realized it too rather than making false accusations……This is the problem with you and NA in general. Im done. Try again next time.