Guild Wars 2

1. Just to cut through the bs a little here, I am discussing sustain and bunker comps which I have stated nearly 2 times before so take the courtesy to read carefully what i say instead of hastily replying.

2. If you think the comp you were running isn’t broken and unhealthy for the game in general than we can have a chat in game when i get back in 2 weeks

3. No one likes to see sustain/bunkers fight, at least no one I know

4. I understand you want to win, and i am not insulting your team mechanically you guys are very good on rotations. I am trying to put the point out there that comps like yours shouldn’t exist, it shuts down condition and balanced comps.

Willson.8170:

1. Just to cut through the bs a little here, I am discussing sustain and bunker comps which I have stated nearly 2 times before so take the courtesy to read carefully what i say instead of hastily replying.

2. If you think the comp you were running isn’t broken and unhealthy for the game in general than we can have a chat in game when i get back in 2 weeks

3. No one likes to see sustain/bunkers fight, at least no one I know

4. I understand you want to win, and i am not insulting your team mechanically you guys are very good on rotations. I am trying to put the point out there that comps like yours shouldn’t exist, it shuts down condition and balanced comps.

I saw what was posted and read all of it. But at the same time do you realize how selfish you sound. I said we all main the classes you saw since day one and used what we could to our advantage. Now you are saying this comp shouldn’t exist and they should get rid or comp because we were taking advantage of what our classes are good at? Lol i just dont even………

I am pretty sure that if time and effort is put into looking for a way to beat their comp, especially now that it’s out for the public to see, it will happen.

The sustain, tankiness, and overall damage of a warrior is op. I don’t care what you have been running since “day 1” doesn’t change the fact that bunker/sustain is op, and should be nerfed accordingly if you want your comp to remain op and everyone to run it to be successful like kPZ then just say so

the finals had nearly mirror comps, takes a blind man not to notice that something was wrong, esp since most of the skirmishes were uninteresting and consisted of who got decaps faster and bunkered down nodes. If you call that top notch pvp then I invite you to come watch paint dry with me

Willson.8170:

the finals had nearly mirror comps, takes a blind man not to notice that something was wrong, esp since most of the skirmishes were uninteresting and consisted of who got decaps faster and bunkered down nodes. If you call that top notch pvp then I invite you to come watch paint dry with me

And what I am saying is you need to stop QQing and figure out how to deal with it. Because we already know how to counter it if we really wanted to and have the coordination to do it. When you build the comp you know the ins and outs and a lot of people who want to copy our comp don’t have the same mechanical skill. Therefore if we wanted to go burst and counter the weakness we most definitely could. People just need to figure it out.

There is no counter to a bunker comp... Any other comp will lose to it and 2 bunker comps fighting each other will end at time limit...

Condis are not the answer bunkers can be immune to condis for longer then desirable and can cleanse and outheal condis easily.

Also with the nerf to larcenous strike bunkers got buffed indirectly.
Bunker specs need to be soften to allow some counter play to it, as it is, is god mode.

As for the "show" they put up for viewers... All I can say is: ZZZzzz...

Yeah there was something wrong, no one bothered to utilize boon strip necros and mesmers , you dont bother to exhaust all options just rather cry nerf its so sad really

Lopez.7369:

Inscrutable.8347:

I am pretty sure that if time and effort is put into looking for a way to beat their comp, especially now that it’s out for the public to see, it will happen.

Every top-level player already knew of their comp before this tournament. That’s why almost everyone expected Apex to win.

Either way, ppl have to take time out and actually plan their team comps and analyze them instead of just plugging stuff in and hoping it works.

I see Apex like the Tim Duncan San Antonio Spurs of NA right now. They are incredibly boring to watch but until people figure out how to beat their halfcourt game they’re going to dominate.

Lopez.7369:

Inscrutable.8347:

I am pretty sure that if time and effort is put into looking for a way to beat their comp, especially now that it’s out for the public to see, it will happen.

Every top-level player already knew of their comp before this tournament. That’s why almost everyone expected Apex to win.

So what I find funny is when our fifth member, Hman, was MIA for quite some time, we replaced him with an engineer for the time being, who goes by the name of Hiba. We didn’t even run double warrior and had 1 warrior 1 engi 1 staff ele 1 guard and 1 spirit ranger. PEOPLE STILL QQ and just assumed we were bunkers because the amount of sustain we gave each other and peels we gave each other with blasting water fields and using heals for one another. I don’t see any other team doing this…….at all when it comes to blasting.

But this reiterates my point. People are so blinded by the fact we peel for each other quite well to where they just assume we are bunkers. We had ONE WARRIOR and literally the same comp as GF but instead of a theif, we had a staff ele. Yet because we had a staff ele(when everyone said ele sucked), everyone just assumed bunker. Our warrior didnt even run soldiers like every other hambow did, and yet people still said bunker. Its quite sad lol. Its bascially like this………..if you peel well for your teammates and have no theif/mesmer, you have a bunky comp. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

lilz shorty.1879:

Willson.8170:

the finals had nearly mirror comps, takes a blind man not to notice that something was wrong, esp since most of the skirmishes were uninteresting and consisted of who got decaps faster and bunkered down nodes. If you call that top notch pvp then I invite you to come watch paint dry with me

And what I am saying is you need to stop QQing and figure out how to deal with it. Because we already know how to counter it if we really wanted to and have the coordination to do it. When you build the comp you know the ins and outs and a lot of people who want to copy our comp don’t have the same mechanical skill. Therefore if we wanted to go burst and counter the weakness we most definitely could. People just need to figure it out.

You are still missing my point. Warriors and sustain is fundamentally broken, doing good damage, having great survivability + being tanky is op. Adding other sustain classes that compliment each other is just absurd to fight. When 3/4 teams in semifinals ran 2 warriors it highlights something fundamentally wrong with balance. I don’t care if there is a “counter comp” to it even if it exists, if you are talking about power necros your comp can still easily deal with that.

Sunshine.5014:

This bunkers and asuras problem really kill the mood for ToL.

When I watched the ToL EU, it was fun because of all the rotation and fun combat.
On ToL NA, it’s just a bunch of people poking each other. They don’t win by rotation (which is fun to watch). They won using bunkers and asuras.

Such a shame.

P.S: this game has no dismissing return for CC. 2 hambow is too strong.

I agree. Snow Monkey did beat KPz on Forest due to rotations though.

I think hammer on warrior either needs longer cds on the 5 and 4 or decrease the knockdown time. I think ele’s are over the top right now. They’re virtually unkillable in 1v1s. I think they need an increase on their cd’s.

Willson.8170:

lilz shorty.1879:

Willson.8170:

the finals had nearly mirror comps, takes a blind man not to notice that something was wrong, esp since most of the skirmishes were uninteresting and consisted of who got decaps faster and bunkered down nodes. If you call that top notch pvp then I invite you to come watch paint dry with me

And what I am saying is you need to stop QQing and figure out how to deal with it. Because we already know how to counter it if we really wanted to and have the coordination to do it. When you build the comp you know the ins and outs and a lot of people who want to copy our comp don’t have the same mechanical skill. Therefore if we wanted to go burst and counter the weakness we most definitely could. People just need to figure it out.

You are still missing my point. Warriors and sustain is fundamentally broken, doing good damage, having great survivability + being tanky is op. Adding other sustain classes that compliment each other is just absurd to fight. When 3/4 teams in semifinals ran 2 warriors it highlights something fundamentally wrong with balance. I don’t care if there is a “counter comp” to it even if it exists, if you are talking about power necros your comp can still easily deal with that.

So first of all as you may know, they all ran two warriors, including GF because of us. We did not run 2 warriors because we thought it would be OP and uncounterable. Secondly, they are WARRIORS and are supposed to do damage while being hard to kill. Thats the point and always has the point of any warrior class. The thing that makes it op/annoying is the CC and damage it does in 3 skills. CC + damage is like god mod when you have no stability.

Trying to make up for the fact that there is no holy trinity is essentially what we tried to do and use the skills that could accommodate for that as best as possible because thats basically what GW2 promotes. There is no actual healer but there are definitely ways to make it seem like there is. This is why its so hard to kill them and I see no issue with it really. If healers were actually in the game then there would be no weakness to the comp and I would agree that having sustained with warriors is just op. But everything has a weakness. And no I was not thinking a power Necro comp.

So….you agree with my point that warriors should be nerfed with sustain in line with burst/condi classes

Thank you very much

I don’t think their sustain is the issue. I think its their CC + damage with just 3 skills on one weapon.

So NA has finally realised how lame the bunkering is? Maybe that means anet will take action as they always tend to react to NA and not EU.

Bunkering has been lame and killing the game for about 8-9 months on EU. It is why I basically quit which was a snowball reaction from the fact EVERYONE I used to play seriously with (about 12 months ago) basically quit or just wanted to mess around.

Cheese mode are imo the team who perfected the bunker comp on EU. To be honest, in PUGs we would get farmed by ANYONE running this bunkery comp. There was just such an uphill battle that we couldn’t win and it wasnt just due to skill because I have lost to some terrible teams purely due to comp, whilst beating some really good players who didnt have a bunker comp.

The game is skill-less and dull to play and watch. Most games last too long on stream. People dying is rare and when they do die it has little effect on the game because a team cannot push their advantage to try and secure middle on legacy. Instead getting a kill just means they try to decap far or go back to hold close. Because nobody can kill anyone.

It has been this way for a while and it is quite simply the absolute worst PvP experience possible. This is why everyone quit. Sorry anet.

No amount of balancing fixes the fact that the meta for this game is still mostly undeveloped. When there are such disparities in team comps at the highest levels of play, that’s not a balance issue. If it were a balance issue, everyone would be running the same teams. Instead, the disparity in team comps is an issue of the players not understanding the meta and what the optimal team comp is.

I’m not saying I have the answer, but it’s more on us as players to figure out the game than it is for anet to just nerf whoever built the better team.

Before we get too excited about one comp, let’s brainstorm some ways to counter it:

1. Out-rotating and constantly pushing 3 points – This is what kPz did when they were winning – used their thief to make a 2v1 that they could quickly win, then holding on 2v1 elsewhere by a tanky player who could stand up to pressure from a couple bunkers for quite a while. When they got out of this rhythm, they slipped.
2. Boon-strip + coordination – Take away those boons and bunkers can melt. This is one reason shatter mesmers became so popular and why the old TP comp had a dps ele + shatter mesmer – they could coordinate to spike down targets with boon strip, CC, and burst. Maybe sigil of nullification should be looked at, or your necro should take boon-strip wells. Mesmer brings a LOT to the table with boon-strip + map control + burst, they just need to be protected by someone else (see sizer + helseth, or shad + misha, or even the old phantaram + xeph back in the day).
3. Decap strats – Decap engie laughs at your solo bunker trying to hold a point when there isn’t a thief or heavy condi-pressure class to force him away.
4. Your input….

Kevin.5610:

Sadly its really amusing how just a few tournaments ago Staff ele was looked down on and with the new patch, Eles support gained a 10% buff to heals, and “now its over powered” because of the Monk runes. But some really don’t understand that the monk runes are actually worse in terms of survival since Dwyana is better. A Staff ele is not a tank build with 1,659 toughness and 13,805 HP.
If you are going to sit there and talk about my staff ele build, Get it straight first. The build is SUSTAIN, not tank. As for the people who don’t agree get a team together, run the same comp as APeX, We’ll see you in team queue to show that it isn’t the comp that makes the player, its’ the skills of them.

Since the theorycrafting is coming from someone who does wvw a lot. Realize ele + ranger drops 3 water fields. Each warrior has 2 low cooldown blast finishers. That can be 6k+ aoe heal on a low cooldown.

APeX just has better synergy and peel for each other better than any other team. Period.

the only salt was the salt apex was spitting out in map chat the entire pregame
day can confirm

confirm/deny the existence

i can pastarino the ss’s but they’d get my post removed because of how BM they were

Blood Moon.8017:

the only salt was the salt apex was spitting out in map chat the entire pregame
day can confirm

confirm/deny the existence

i can pastarino the ss’s but they’d get my post removed because of how BM they were

We ain’t the ones QQuing bro No salt around here.

Let me be the 1st to say and certainly not the last, IF I may say so myself, Ender you are the epitome of an excellent Shatter Mesmer worth being called a Champion Illusionist. You excel above and beyond many others, BUT after your performance in that tourney , it was sub par to say the least. You want to call yourself an illusionist, you have so many utility skills and traits at your disposal. For starters; null field, staff instead of GS, mantra of resolve, mantra of concentration, mirror of anguish trait, healing phantasms, healing mantras, time warp, feedback. But instead You chose the glassiest spec possible. Playing shatter is fun and it deals great bursts.
I know off hand not being able to just burst someone can be frustrating but that doesn’t mean your enemy is cheesing because they chose more survivability than you did. They played it smart as you didn’t. You took blink decoy and portal and moa(which when you did use your elite[which seemed out of panic], your team failed to capitalize on that skill) which is, lets face it, extremely standard. The spec you ran allows you be hard to catch while still maintaining consistent damage, but when that damage is mitigated how did that work for you?
Being a champion (anything) means soo much more than just being able to play high skill cap (blank), you could’ve easily Retraited/Respec’d between matches or even before the match itself to allow yourself more survivability. Granit the match might not be as “Fun” because you didn’t 80-0 someone…. But rewards/stakes were high and some people chose a much safer approach. AND nothing is wrong with that.
Being a tpvp player yourself, you should’ve picked up on what others were doing, playing it safe. You lacked personal condition clear for 1 and you basically brought nothing to team fights, other than boonstrips because people were a bit tankier than you had anticipated.

Furthermore…

For a long time Ele in general was and has been swept under the rug, no tpvp teams even touched Ele besides ApeX. This game lacks a dedicated support class, so Anet broke support amongst all the classes which are favored between Guardian and Staff Ele. Staff ele isn’t cheese, it has an extremely high skill cap to master and this tourney just proves the “viableness” of a good ele in all its forms. Mesmer is a mage too and has great support utility as well. You chose not to use those utilities which is a click away.

If you think playing 1 way of a class will guarantee you a win, you are dead wrong & if you think because that spec didn’t work it’s automatically other peoples fault, your wrong again.

2 warriors is front line, which is an important aspect of the game, for PvE, WvW and PvP. The healing signit was previously nerfed, so they aren’t bunker. celestial amulet, Zerker amulet and soldier. You got focused and outplayed, you didn’t have the sustain to keep on fighting. You Chose a glass spec. Lastly Instead of saying another comp is cheese cause they beat you to the punch line through well played fights. Instead of trying to deconstruct the winners comp, maybe you should look at your own teams comp and therein lies the problem(s).

I disagree. All matches were fun to watch, especially the last one. Why?
Because it truly came down to player skill and team synergy. Both teams were running nearly identical team comps.

The 1v1’s at the side points were interesting to watch.
The team fights were great. They presented to the audience the effectiveness of playing unselfish builds. With the longer, more sustained fights, it should prove to the PvP community how important it is to be a team player.

I would have liked to see a team running 1-2 necros make it to the finals. Oh well, we’ll have to wait for now

I’ve never understood why ppl don’t run more support in their team comps. If you go too offensive and it doesn’t work you get three capped, which takes a lot more work to recover from than it would have if you had a more sturdy foundation in your team.

I agree that bunker comps are extremely boring to watch and very, very easy to play. Also, instead of nerfing hambows, they buffed them with the new runes and extra sigils. And now they are not doing anything about it.

I havent had a change to watch any ToL but from what I read lots of the top EU teams ran more burst specs?

lilz shorty.1879:

You are still missing my point. Warriors and sustain is fundamentally broken, doing good damage, having great survivability + being tanky is op. Adding other sustain classes that compliment each other is just absurd to fight. When 3/4 teams in semifinals ran 2 warriors it highlights something fundamentally wrong with balance. I don’t care if there is a “counter comp” to it even if it exists, if you are talking about power necros your comp can still easily deal with that.

There’s a lot of micro analysis that’s required in order to disect the weaknesses of your team comp.

The strengths of the comp cover up the weaknesses that the professions normally have individually, as well as weaknesses that would normally be there in other comps.

Admiting that you feel you’re able to follow the holy trinity is actually part of the perceived problem. The holy trinity in concept is a perfect composition that can’t be beat by anything other than another comp utilizing the trinity. The holy trinity would out heal any other comp.

From the outside looking in, the strengths of your comp require the opponents playing a non-bunkery comp play nearly perfectly when coordinating spikes. Whereas your comp is low risk and high reward, because you will either widdle the opposition down over time or they are forced to retreat and you gain a point.

Y’all are so bunkery, it’d be hard to spike you down. Condi’s are very ineffective, so at a conceptual level there’s no option but to run a bunkery comp to counter your bunkery comp. It seems like a team would have to specifically build to counter you, instead of comps at large being able to counter your comp via matchups and rotation.

There’s a reason that what was pretty much the same comp made it to the finals from both sides of the tourny, and that’s because general team comps are at a disadvantage vs the bunkery comp.

Blood Lord.5687:

Let me be the 1st to say and certainly not the last, IF I may say so myself, Ender you are the epitome of an excellent Shatter Mesmer worth being called a Champion Illusionist. You excel above and beyond many others, BUT after your performance in that tourney , it was sub par to say the least. You want to call yourself an illusionist, you have so many utility skills and traits at your disposal. For starters; null field, staff instead of GS, mantra of resolve, mantra of concentration, mirror of anguish trait, healing phantasms, healing mantras, time warp, feedback. But instead You chose the glassiest spec possible. Playing shatter is fun and it deals great bursts.
I know off hand not being able to just burst someone can be frustrating but that doesn’t mean your enemy is cheesing because they chose more survivability than you did. They played it smart as you didn’t. You took blink decoy and portal and moa(which when you did use your elite[which seemed out of panic], your team failed to capitalize on that skill) which is, lets face it, extremely standard. The spec you ran allows you be hard to catch while still maintaining consistent damage, but when that damage is mitigated how did that work for you?
Being a champion (anything) means soo much more than just being able to play high skill cap (blank), you could’ve easily Retraited/Respec’d between matches or even before the match itself to allow yourself more survivability. Granit the match might not be as “Fun” because you didn’t 80-0 someone…. But rewards/stakes were high and some people chose a much safer approach. AND nothing is wrong with that.
Being a tpvp player yourself, you should’ve picked up on what others were doing, playing it safe. You lacked personal condition clear for 1 and you basically brought nothing to team fights, other than boonstrips because people were a bit tankier than you had anticipated.

Oh Lawd, I agree that he should have maybe brought nullfield instead, but everything else you just said there was kitten. 20/20/0/0/30 is the only viable mesmer spec in tpvp at this time (20/20/30 is debatable). If he was not going to run glass, what would he run? Condi mesmer lololol? Shatter Mesmer burst is the only thing we can run.

Perhaps they could have coordinated burst more, who knows. But please dun act like mesmers can really run anything else.

Shockwave.1230:

lilz shorty.1879:

You are still missing my point. Warriors and sustain is fundamentally broken, doing good damage, having great survivability + being tanky is op. Adding other sustain classes that compliment each other is just absurd to fight. When 3/4 teams in semifinals ran 2 warriors it highlights something fundamentally wrong with balance. I don’t care if there is a “counter comp” to it even if it exists, if you are talking about power necros your comp can still easily deal with that.

There’s a lot of micro analysis that’s required in order to disect the weaknesses of your team comp.

The strengths of the comp cover up the weaknesses that the professions normally have individually, as well as weaknesses that would normally be there in other comps.

Admiting that you feel you’re able to follow the holy trinity is actually part of the perceived problem. The holy trinity in concept is a perfect composition that can’t be beat by anything other than another comp utilizing the trinity. The holy trinity would out heal any other comp.

From the outside looking in, the strengths of your comp require the opponents playing a non-bunkery comp play nearly perfectly when coordinating spikes. Whereas your comp is low risk and high reward, because you will either widdle the opposition down over time or they are forced to retreat and you gain a point.

Y’all are so bunkery, it’d be hard to spike you down. Condi’s are very ineffective, so at a conceptual level there’s no option but to run a bunkery comp to counter your bunkery comp. It seems like a team would have to specifically build to counter you, instead of comps at large being able to counter your comp via matchups and rotation.

There’s a reason that what was pretty much the same comp made it to the finals from both sides of the tourny, and that’s because general team comps are at a disadvantage vs the bunkery comp.

I 100% agree with you. But all I am saying is we are not the ones to blame and it is possible to beat us and counter us lol. But yes its unfortunate that we happen to be lucky where our main classes happen to work so well together and create this comp. We needed a strat and a comp because we did not have the mobility of a thief.

lilz shorty.1879:

Shockwave.1230:

lilz shorty.1879:

You are still missing my point. Warriors and sustain is fundamentally broken, doing good damage, having great survivability + being tanky is op. Adding other sustain classes that compliment each other is just absurd to fight. When 3/4 teams in semifinals ran 2 warriors it highlights something fundamentally wrong with balance. I don’t care if there is a “counter comp” to it even if it exists, if you are talking about power necros your comp can still easily deal with that.

There’s a lot of micro analysis that’s required in order to disect the weaknesses of your team comp.

The strengths of the comp cover up the weaknesses that the professions normally have individually, as well as weaknesses that would normally be there in other comps.

Admiting that you feel you’re able to follow the holy trinity is actually part of the perceived problem. The holy trinity in concept is a perfect composition that can’t be beat by anything other than another comp utilizing the trinity. The holy trinity would out heal any other comp.

From the outside looking in, the strengths of your comp require the opponents playing a non-bunkery comp play nearly perfectly when coordinating spikes. Whereas your comp is low risk and high reward, because you will either widdle the opposition down over time or they are forced to retreat and you gain a point.

Y’all are so bunkery, it’d be hard to spike you down. Condi’s are very ineffective, so at a conceptual level there’s no option but to run a bunkery comp to counter your bunkery comp. It seems like a team would have to specifically build to counter you, instead of comps at large being able to counter your comp via matchups and rotation.

There’s a reason that what was pretty much the same comp made it to the finals from both sides of the tourny, and that’s because general team comps are at a disadvantage vs the bunkery comp.

I 100% agree with you. But all I am saying is we are not the ones to blame and it is possible to beat us and counter us lol. But yes its unfortunate that we happen to be lucky where our main classes happen to work so well together and create this comp. We needed a strat and a comp because we did not have the mobility of a thief.

I’m not blaming you, and no one should be honestly. You did what the game allowed. It’s just pretty obvious, that the comp does a lot to negate skilled plays done by the opposing comps.

As a side note though, this comp with a thief instead of ranger should have won. There were so many opportunities for SupCutie to outrotate that were very noticeable, not that I’d necessarily have done better. Caed did an excellent job at this on Kylo though in the previous round.

Blood Lord.5687:

Let me be the 1st to say and certainly not the last, IF I may say so myself, Ender you are the epitome of an excellent Shatter Mesmer worth being called a Champion Illusionist. You excel above and beyond many others, BUT after your performance in that tourney , it was sub par to say the least. You want to call yourself an illusionist, you have so many utility skills and traits at your disposal. For starters; null field, staff instead of GS, mantra of resolve, mantra of concentration, mirror of anguish trait, healing phantasms, healing mantras, time warp, feedback. But instead You chose the glassiest spec possible. Playing shatter is fun and it deals great bursts.
I know off hand not being able to just burst someone can be frustrating but that doesn’t mean your enemy is cheesing because they chose more survivability than you did. They played it smart as you didn’t. You took blink decoy and portal and moa(which when you did use your elite[which seemed out of panic], your team failed to capitalize on that skill) which is, lets face it, extremely standard. The spec you ran allows you be hard to catch while still maintaining consistent damage, but when that damage is mitigated how did that work for you?
Being a champion (anything) means soo much more than just being able to play high skill cap (blank), you could’ve easily Retraited/Respec’d between matches or even before the match itself to allow yourself more survivability. Granit the match might not be as “Fun” because you didn’t 80-0 someone…. But rewards/stakes were high and some people chose a much safer approach. AND nothing is wrong with that.
Being a tpvp player yourself, you should’ve picked up on what others were doing, playing it safe. You lacked personal condition clear for 1 and you basically brought nothing to team fights, other than boonstrips because people were a bit tankier than you had anticipated.

Furthermore…

For a long time Ele in general was and has been swept under the rug, no tpvp teams even touched Ele besides ApeX. This game lacks a dedicated support class, so Anet broke support amongst all the classes which are favored between Guardian and Staff Ele. Staff ele isn’t cheese, it has an extremely high skill cap to master and this tourney just proves the “viableness” of a good ele in all its forms. Mesmer is a mage too and has great support utility as well. You chose not to use those utilities which is a click away.

If you think playing 1 way of a class will guarantee you a win, you are dead wrong & if you think because that spec didn’t work it’s automatically other peoples fault, your wrong again.

2 warriors is front line, which is an important aspect of the game, for PvE, WvW and PvP. The healing signit was previously nerfed, so they aren’t bunker. celestial amulet, Zerker amulet and soldier. You got focused and outplayed, you didn’t have the sustain to keep on fighting. You Chose a glass spec. Lastly Instead of saying another comp is cheese cause they beat you to the punch line through well played fights. Instead of trying to deconstruct the winners comp, maybe you should look at your own teams comp and therein lies the problem(s).

There’s just so much ignorance, malice, and general stupidity in this post that I don’t even know where to start. This is a team game, and Ender was playing well in the tournament of legends. You cannot single him out and place Elusive’s loss on his behalf. Honestly, it seems like you are trolling, because I refuse to believe that really anyone can be this…well….I’ll just pretend I didn’t read this.

Aeroxe.8140:

There’s just so much ignorance, malice, and general stupidity in this post that I don’t even know where to start. This is a team game, and Ender was playing well in the tournament of legends. You cannot single him out and place Elusive’s loss on his behalf. Honestly, it seems like you are trolling, because I refuse to believe that really anyone can be this…well….I’ll just pretend I didn’t read this.

1st off who are You? troll? oh. Just OH. Secondly, I had to grab a tissue or two because I simply could not contain the tears rolling down my face from reading your post. Absolutely hysterical.
Your failed attempt to not only criticize my post which was meant to enlighten Ender on other aspects of Mesmer gameplay as I was merely responding to his QQ post about the false accusation of bunker classes in the ToL, not to single him out and make it seem like he was the sole reason why Team Elusive lost. Because he isn’t the reason they lost, it was their comp and frankly being outplayed. But you, whoever you are, took it so far as to try and belittle me. But let me assure you, you are the ignorant individual here. You lack basic knowledge on the Mesmer class in its entirety. Furthermore giving out detailed utility information and trait options just shows how fluent(for the lack of a better word) I am in the class. So ignorance and stupidity is more so on your end.. You speak of malice which derives from attempting to do harm to another. Which again, I can assure you was not the intention. & to be fair, I’ll just pretend I never took the time to actually explain and respond to you. #donions

I still remember a dev saying that if they saw two of one class being run then it’s too strong. It’s been sooo many months that people have run 2x war though, so I guess they forgot.

I’ll be concerned when bunker comps are at the top of the EU scene, where there are actually teams that have the communication, teamwork, and dedication to play at a higher level.

Not saying NA players are bad, but the teams clearly are less refined and practiced together.

Blood Lord.5687:

Aeroxe.8140:

1st off who are You? troll? oh. Just OH. Secondly, I had to grab a tissue or two because I simply could not contain the tears rolling down my face from reading your post. Absolutely hysterical.

I’m not convinced you even watched the games from Saturday. Aeroxe is the thief from Elusive. Furthermore the things you’re suggesting for Ender to do to “help” against Apex are some of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen written on these forums, and believe me these forums have seen some kitten.

You should stop, you’re embarrassing yourself and your guild.

Ozie.4176:

Blood Lord.5687:

Aeroxe.8140:

1st off who are You? troll? oh. Just OH. Secondly, I had to grab a tissue or two because I simply could not contain the tears rolling down my face from reading your post. Absolutely hysterical.

I’m not convinced you even watched the games from Saturday. Aeroxe is the thief from Elusive. Furthermore the things you’re suggesting for Ender to do to “help” against Apex are some of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen written on these forums, and believe me these forums have seen some kitten.

You should stop, you’re embarrassing yourself and your guild.

Listen to this man, he is the most fabulous canadian NA.

Lopez.7369:

Stronger condition builds would speed up the game by countering the bunker builds, which would make it bad to run four or five bunkers.

I don’t know what game people are playing in which condition bunkers are a thing. There are currently zero condition builds in the finals, unless you count spirit ranger.

“Condi-Bunker” might be the wrong expression because when we use that term we mainly think of Engineers and Necromancers, maybe PU Mesmers, who can apply a large number of conditions while still being very tanky.

“Bunkers who deal a significant amount of their damage via conditions” might be more accurate as it includes Hambows and all the other conditions that are spammed around by various effects.

I guarantee that if we saw a damage-breakdown of all the ToL fights, the Burning condition would be dealing by far the most damage.

And the “problem” with conditions was never their raw DPS, but just how abundant and unavoidable they are in combat, being constantly applied by everything from pets over illusions to auto-attacks and various fields. They are untelegraphed and impossible to avoid reliably.

It is conquest after all. You want a thief to hold your close point? I don’t think think you do. Untill Anet decides to give us 1vs1 / 2vs2 / 3vs3 annihilation game mode(no respawning) we won’t see a shift in the current meta.

But wouldn’t it just take a comp with a thief to keep it 5v4 vs that apex comp? I mean where’s the mobility?

Congrats to Apex. Just watched the Vod’s and well done. Doing what needs to be done to win is what counts in the end honestly and they did it well.

Bunkers in solo queue are essentially what healers were for GW1 random arenas. You either have them or you lose.

I recently started doing arenas, since the rewards update, and for a while it was fun. Most people on the lower ranks just play to have fun and the few bunkers were bad at it.

Then I started moving up in the leaderboards, all the way to the top 100. And oh god so many bunkers. I’ve had matches where barely anyone dies, people just stand on the points repeatedly healing themselves, hoping the other guy will accidentally step out of the circle.

But the sad thing is that it works, I rarely see the team with the most bunkers lose. Its just so viable since they have no counters, other than that 1 specific build in that 1 specific class.

When your team encounters a fully tanked out bunker in mid and you have none, you’re pretty much kittened. You either ignore mid completely and be forced to split on opposite sides of the map, while having to fight right in front of the enemy spawn. Or you dedicate 2-3 players to waste time killing the bunker, while the rest of your team is outnumbered and outcapped. Either way you lose.

You’re telling me the meta for this game is boring? WHATTTTTTT nooooo way stop it. :^)

Since when?//1/111

There are many EU teams who play with 2-3 Burst classes, these teams will just destroy any bunker comp because they can just 1v2 a guy get to the other side of the map instantly and 1v2 again, bunker comp is not even good in EU.

What can you even do to stop bunkers?

Anet for some, I’m sure unforgivable reason, decided to not separate PvE from PvP in the sequel to the only MMORPG to ever do it, and is what made that game so great. And on top of PvE there is an almost complete and separate meta for the unwashed masses in STPvP and hotjoins which make up the majority of the PvPers in GW2.

A change to condition/power specs could turn the PvE meta upside down. Having no trinity means the classes that have the best offensive buffs and offensive damage are only considered good, with the exception of guardians for things like aegis on some harder content, but again they have to be running full zerk anyways. The ele and warrior pvers would have a tushy tantrum.

And it could absolutely destroy the game for low level solo que, do you remember the river nile of tears for d/d thief cnd precasting? Or the current PU mesmers being “unkillable gods” (weird we didn’t see any of them in ToL). These are the type of people anet is worried about kittening off. If you increase DPS output for certain specs scrubs will be getting isntagibbed more and the QQ will be uncontrollable, if you nerf bunkers those people will feel like they have less of a crutch to survive and the same crap will happen.

We were doomed the second anet decided to remove the trinity, every “Timmy” in this game expects everything to balanced 1v1, meaning we get what we have now. Boring uninspired bunkers vs bunkers meta with 5 hour long fights.

Wow can we stop using the term “Bunker Comp” you guys are talking about a composition that didn’t exist in this tourny, how many times do they have to explain they are all built to support each other. No one other than tarcis was running anything close that could be consider bunker.

The worst thing about this whole confusion was the shout caster’s inability to truly see what made APEX so strong, rotations, player mechanics, group support, organization. Instead all we heard out of their mouths were sighs and bunker comp bunker comp it’s this bunker comp, bunker meta etc etc…..

The word to describe what can’t be unwatched

Boring

Whether or not you want to call all of Apex bunkers is up to you. The bottom line is, if two classes (guard and staff ele) can sustain a team in out numbered fights is unbalanced.. idc if your blasting your fields and peeling for each other… you should still lose that fight….now comes the question “how do you beat this comp?” Since they probably won’t Nerf it… beating this comp is relatively simple… you could say just out rotate, but since they are so hard to kill, they can rotate poorly and slow, and still get to the fight in time…. the real success of Apexs comp is tarcis aka 1v1 hero…..you have to play three points to beat them, GF showed us that when they got 500-50 by kpex… so I say it here, if you have someone who can consistently beat tarcis, you will win the game as long as you can simply sustain on the other points which unfortunately will require something close to a mirror comp… the second strategy which we(outplayed by children) tried on legacy is simply setting up fights from the beginning, that you know you can win.. for instance nos(necro) and (engi) pushed far at start, because we knew we could 2v2 anyone on their team .. meanwhile we set up a 2v2 on home because we knew they would push chubbz and knight, so we left our other engi and our ele there to fight them, and leaving the two guards on mid… we won both our 2v2s and then clapses mid to secure a 3 cap, by setting up our fights we were able to win all of them…. this opener alone gave us a 150 point lead and should have been enough to beat them… however they set up there fights off respawn and ended up coming back and winning on a lord rush 500-480, due to the fact we played terribly towards the end… so tldr don’t let them choose fights at start, or 1v1 slay tarcis. -backpack

Blood Lord.5687:

Aeroxe.8140:

There’s just so much ignorance, malice, and general stupidity in this post that I don’t even know where to start. This is a team game, and Ender was playing well in the tournament of legends. You cannot single him out and place Elusive’s loss on his behalf. Honestly, it seems like you are trolling, because I refuse to believe that really anyone can be this…well….I’ll just pretend I didn’t read this.

1st off who are You? troll? oh. Just OH. Secondly, I had to grab a tissue or two because I simply could not contain the tears rolling down my face from reading your post. Absolutely hysterical.
Your failed attempt to not only criticize my post which was meant to enlighten Ender on other aspects of Mesmer gameplay as I was merely responding to his QQ post about the false accusation of bunker classes in the ToL, not to single him out and make it seem like he was the sole reason why Team Elusive lost. Because he isn’t the reason they lost, it was their comp and frankly being outplayed. But you, whoever you are, took it so far as to try and belittle me. But let me assure you, you are the ignorant individual here. You lack basic knowledge on the Mesmer class in its entirety. Furthermore giving out detailed utility information and trait options just shows how fluent(for the lack of a better word) I am in the class. So ignorance and stupidity is more so on your end.. You speak of malice which derives from attempting to do harm to another. Which again, I can assure you was not the intention. & to be fair, I’ll just pretend I never took the time to actually explain and respond to you. #donions

Well, here we go….

I’ll be extremely clear. I understand that this person is not representative of Apex and thus I will still hold Apex in a high regard. Anyways, here’s what I think of your thread Blood Lord:

1) You are singling Ender out and trying to belittle him. As much as you deny so, I still 100% believe that you are targeting Ender.
2) You are trying to defend Apex because you represent Apex. (lol…)

Now here is why I think these are so:

a) You believe that this thread is personally against apex because it gives off the impression it is a qq post. This is actually understandable, considering this post was made after a loss in the tourney and thus seems like a qq post. But if you actually took the time to read the last few pages in this thread, Apex and Elusive have settled that this is not a qq post. Either you are ignorant of the past few pages, or just stupid. This reason is by far the most probable

b) To a lesser extent, you didn’t even know who I was. Because you didn’t even know that I was the thief who played for team Elusive (I was mentioned many times by Blu and Sireph during the shoutcast), you have shown that you were solely focused on Ender during the matches. That may be due to the twitch chat (which is as we all know is 100% correct in all regards), or your own personal desire to boost your own ego as a mesmer.

c) You mention Ender not bringing out other utilities to help him sustain himself and any team support because he wanted to have “fun”. Understand that builds are not selected individually, but as a team altogether. We decided to have Ender go full burst because we believed that to beat Apex, we needed to go full burst. However, the true mistake was still having our 2 engis run condi. The fact that you ignored this whole team aspect and based it all on Ender really goes to show that you have something against the guy.

Also, you cannot base Ender’s choice on build because he wanted to have “fun”. You have no premise or logical reasoning towards that other than your own personal opinion. Therefore, you are trying to trash on Ender.

d) You are just trying to defend Apex. You lack any true knowledge of tPvP, and I can tell by looking at these particular things you said. I’m sure even your own guildies would be baffled and disagree:
1)2 Warriors are essential to be a “frontline” in every game mode
2)Mesmers are “mages” like eles, and thus have great support
3)Warriors are no longer tanky because of the massive healing signet nerf

e) You are extremely patriotic to Apex. You claim Apex was the first team to use staff ele and take great pride in that. You also claim that we were just “outplayed and focused” and that Apex was very smart. I’m not denying these things, but you really emphasize these points, showing that you desire to defend your guild merely because you represent it.

f) You mention Ender at least 10 times in your post, and never mention the team except for our comp one time at the end. Other than that, the whole post itself is directed against Ender and puts blame on him.

g)You claim to me that you you are extremely fluent with mesmer because you know the basic utilities (lol), and that I lack any basic knowledge of the class. I don’t understand where you came up with that, other than your own personal bias. Therefore, a possible reason why you are hating on ender is to again, boost your own ego.

That sums up some of the stuff. I can add more if you like, but you would be an idiot to not see that this is enough. For future Apex members coming into this forum, just keep in mind that this not a post directed against Apex.