Guild Wars 2

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Pyriall.1683:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh please, crybabies. Condi damage is so freaking cheesy ….. you can go full tank and still have condi damage. A viable power build would need power AND precision and in most cases even ferocity which makes you instant glass cannon, as in … you get focused for a second and you die.

Meanwhile, to be viable condi DPSer all the stats you need to stack are, wait for it —-————- condi damage. That’s all there is to this braindead gameplay. It has no risk in it. Just reward.

Talk about spamming all you want, but spamming autoattack on a thief/DH and spamming AA on necro are 2 different things.

Oh what was that? Retaliation doesn’t hit back when you attack through condis? Ahh … cool. Meanwhile glass thieves kill themselves on targets with retalionation up.

I can totally see how condition damage is balanced. amirite?

I can’t tell if you are serious and have just never played a PvP match before or if you are just trolling…

I’m curious if you actually read what he wrote.

We can go through it step by step if that would help your comprehension:

1. You can go full tank and still have condition damage. True, but you can also do this with power, it is called solider gear. Both only increase 1 of 3 possible stats needed to do damage. (power/precision/ferocity) and (CD/expertise/precision). Of course condition builds also get between 40-50% of their damage from power so they actually need 5 stats to max out damage, which they can’t ever do. (see after match necro stats)

2. He claims that going glass canon makes him die under focus fire as a power build but somehow doesn’t as a condition build… If I equip Zerker gear and then switch to viper gear my vitality and toughness are the same so I have no idea what he is talking about. 2 points he is just plain wrong about.

3. AA on thief and DH are different than Necro. Well this is true. Necro AA can’t crit the main damage portion while thief and DH’s can meaning every necro AA will do ~2000 damage (over 5 seconds) while thief and DH will do 2000-5000 instantly. Another disadvantage to condition users… really starting to doubt he’s ever stepped into PvP…

4. retaliation doesn’t hit condition users…. Well now i’m sure he’s never stepped into PvP. Retaliation hits someone every time my necro does an attack just like it does for every other class. If I swing my scepter 3 times on necro I get 3 hits of retaliation. If I swing my daggers 3 times on thief I get 3 hits of retaliation. The difference being that after 3 swings and 3 seconds of fighting the thief has done 10,000 damage while the necro has only done 2000 with another 8000 if the target does nothing for the next 10 seconds.

5. He is correct they are not balanced, they are very different with an inherent disadvantage to condition specs which is why only 3 of the current 11 meta builds are condition while the other 8 are power or healing based.

Hope that helps you understand better

1. Good job on misrepresenting what was said. He said as a condition build you can build for durability as well “tank”. Where as to play a viable power build you give up the survivability that you can play with the tanky/condition build. NO, soldier gear doesn’t exist in this form of pvp. When was the last time you actually played spvp?

2. Referencing the speed at which you die to focus fire.

3. I will differ to the OP on this one. I don’t know what he meant.

4. He point blank states, “retaliation doesn’t hit back through condis” Every damage application of the condition is not affected by retaliation. This is true. Retaliation affects punishes power builds more.

5. The majority of the meta builds are built around conditions. Either application or a serious amount of cleansing.

babazhook.6805:

The real issue with Condition builds is the same as it is with power builds. There might be certain individual attacks that are “overtuned”. Some suggest COR does too much damage. Some suggest True shot does too much damage. Some suggest DH traps does too much damage. Some suggest vault does too much damage. While offering no opinion on each of these skills when one debates whether are not the damge too high on these attacks, we do not conclude that “all power attacks are too powerful and power needs to be toned down”. We address each of these skills individually.

The same applies to Conditions and the fallacy of the argument that “Conditions need to be toned down” is made evident , as others have pointed out, that only a small handful of classes can make truly competitive Condition builds. If it was as bad as claimed than those would be the only builds we see.

Agreed 100%. But for some reason when a condition damage attack hits you, the first reaction is “omfg condis” but if someone hits you with something like Gunflame, Trueshot, DH traps, Vault, etc. etc. people QQ the specific skill and “omfg power dmg” doesn’t even get mentioned, no matter how broken the attack. I think with condi attacks, most people don’t even know what skill hit them. For example, Soul Spiral hits someone and they scream “omg the condis!”… well.. it’s a specific, high damage attack that hit you, not “omg random spam condis”.

And for those saying power Revenant has bad survivalbility… what? I’d say that at times, it feels like it has better survivalbility than a Reaper. Dodge, dodge, evade, dodge, evade, dodge, block, evade, dodge, block, evade, dodge. Essentially you can be completely immune to damage (if you wanted) for a really, really long time and that’s with a glassy amulet or any amulet for that matter. So when people say “yeah you can build condi and still be tanky”… in a way that’s true, but the power specs nowadays (when compared to a commonly used condi spec – Reaper) have a TON of damage immunity or mitigation so it doesn’t matter if you’re squishy, you can still tank like it’s nothing. I can easiiillyyy tank a point with a Revenant against 2 enemies for quite some time with a fairly glassy amulet.
On top of that, on average, my damage output seems higher with a power Revenant (end of game statistics) then with Reaper. And even then, a chunk of Reaper damage is actually power (if you check your end of game statistics).

Wolfric.9380:

Currently reapers are strong and mesmers can also realy hurt with condies.
But yesterday again i did see what a revenenat can do… Niffel due to some reason only the revenant an i (hybrid ele) reached mid. Usually bad but we downed one per 5 seconds. The damage was extreme. This 2:3 was over in about 20 seconds and it was power damage. Power damage especially in focus fire is superior unless you shoot into invuls or reflects …
And yes bring a strategy against condies or live that you might die on it. Its good that we don´t have only power viable (at least in a few classes). This brings diversity.

I usually dont have a problem with condies compared to raw power burst in pvp and WvW. I think what most people can’t handle well is the fast re-application of them. Though With experience and knowing the classes/builds you are fighting helps a crap-ton. There’s also the misconception of thinking you shouldn’t or can’t be hard countered. Know your build’s limitations is a ltp issue.

I like that it’s a mixed meta of power and condi(though most is power atm) . It encourages diversity and strategy on who and when you fight. And smart players check the other team’s comp and builds accordingly(usually).

I’d point out that Condi damage is pretty much the only thing Mesmer has going for it. I can’t speak for the other classes, but I’m guessing there are one or two others that are heavily reliant on condi.

Uncle Dalty.8327:

Please for the love of god put a cap on the amount of dmg per sec you can take from condi… just like gw1. torment and confusion can go over a bit if moving or attacking… but other than that the condi pressure is just stupid. condi is just mindless spam and the payoff is absurd. Thanks

I think specifically nerfing the builds that are very strong is probably better. I don’t like nerfing general things just because some builds associated with it are too strong, it has to many implications and could hurt build-diversity.

Also, I never got the “mindless spam” argument. It really has nothing to do with conditions at all. Good players will have to adjust which skill to use when just like on any other build.

I’ve told at end season 1 what will happen if they nerf the ele this way, that condi dmg will rule, and condi/hybrid Reaper will be insane; nobody listened, or the sneaky ones knew and prepared for it.
In the past there were no slow, torment, chill dmg, you could land a very few condi on the opponent, only fire and confusion was nasty, but now, I can easily give 8-9 different condis on an opponent, he can give me the same ammount, but know what, I have 3 different skills that give back the condis on me on my opponent/’s…
Until PvE is not separated from PvP it will remain the same, every time, no mater what they change; ANET only sees PvE, no mater what…

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Shala.8352:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh please, crybabies. Condi damage is so freaking cheesy ….. you can go full tank and still have condi damage. A viable power build would need power AND precision and in most cases even ferocity which makes you instant glass cannon, as in … you get focused for a second and you die.

Meanwhile, to be viable condi DPSer all the stats you need to stack are, wait for it —-————- condi damage. That’s all there is to this braindead gameplay. It has no risk in it. Just reward.

Talk about spamming all you want, but spamming autoattack on a thief/DH and spamming AA on necro are 2 different things.

Oh what was that? Retaliation doesn’t hit back when you attack through condis? Ahh … cool. Meanwhile glass thieves kill themselves on targets with retalionation up.

I can totally see how condition damage is balanced. amirite?

Power needs Precision and ferocity.
Conditions need duration and expertise.

Power/precision/crit damage values are increased with might and fury and ferocity.

Condition values are increased with might to reach a hard ceiling of damage and stacks. Their values don’t increase with precision or fury or ferocity.

All you have successfully proven is that conditions are still weak and need to be buffed so their values also increase with fury or any other value metric.

No one got a critical hit condition damage for 7k. No condition user ever hit for 3.5k on a critical auto attack.

No one ever had their physical damage over written by someone else’s weak physical damage.

Thanks for highlighting conditions need a buff.

Well done. Good argument.

If they don’t need precision and ferocity, then they need less stats XD XD.
And no you don’t need expertise, cuz actualy skills are so bad balanced that they already give an insane amount of seconds of condi, that’s why your argument about “they need to be stack in order to do dmg” totaly crash, because is not hard to reach 25 stack of poison if every time you hit with skills/random aoe you put 10 seconds of 5 stack of poison!!!
Also you don’t need expertise, since condi dmg is bursty! you are not gonna do a DoT, you are gonna do a burst!!! no need expertise for a burst!!!

We can argue all you want, condi players will never admit how easy and braindead their gameplay is compared to power dps builds, men this is a noobfriendly game, thats why we have condi so OP, to help noobs.

And to answer the post aboves, i don’t need any toghness to counter a power dps if i am power dps too, instead i cant counter a condi player without condi cleanser (wich are never high enough, and unbalanced between classes) even if i am a power dps, because the condi player will be tanky as hell while still beeing able to do the dmg.

Also the retalation/weakness/protection/dmg reduction argument is so so obvious that it’s useless repeating it for thousand times, if condi players and Anet balance team don’t get it at the first sight, then we cant avoid their blindness.

Welcome to your new purchase of gw2.
“Those tanky as hell condi players.”
There is 9 amulets in PvP that have the toughness stat. 7 of them are power or healing based. 2 are condi based.

I think the what you mean to say is, “Those tanky as hell power users.”

There is only one rune that affects condi stat and toughness. Undead runes.
There Is 9 runes that affect toughness and vitality.

Every thing your rambling on about just isn’t supported by any evidence.

“they spam conditions…” power users also make pretty effective use of ‘spamming attacks’ as well.

The fact is, if your dying over and over again to conditions, its time you changed, rather than you insist everything else change.

The only ‘tanky as hell’..and “condi spam” build out there is warrior berserker..and if there is any profession that really doesn’t deserve any further nerfs its warrior.

Maybe your talking about evade spam thief?..which is far from tanky.
Maybe your talking about chrono phantasm..which is far from tanky..
Maybe your taking about chill reaper..which is far from tanky…

Any which way, there is no ‘tanky as hell’ condition builds apart from berserker, and lets face it..do we see them dominating the game?…exactly.

You’re just angry because you think condition stacking is for ‘noobs’..yet in the same sentence keep making references to dying to these same noobs. See where I am going with this?..if your dying to conditions, that you feel ‘have been spammed’ by ‘noobs’ that speaks more about where you’re at then anything else.

Before any match starts players can swap to hoelbrak, svanir, generosity, swap to cleansing traits etc etc..it not like options are limited in how to approach this.

However its only of benefit to you if you make use of this and alter your build to accommodate match where you can see there is 2 or more tradition condition users.

Power dmg based amulet are 2, none of them have toghness: marauder and berserker. The other are called tank amulets. If you consider soldier or paladin as power dps amulet, you should know you can’t kill anything with those amulets in any duels. Maybe in group fight you can kill with target focusing, but still if you run those amulets you are a tank, and the funny thing is that you still need cleanser or even your 3k armor will evaporate to condi dmg.
Now if you instead watch at mercenary amulet, you will notice it has condi cap dmg + toghness.
I don’t get why you cant get such a simple thing: condi dmg = power + precision + ferocity. How is it so hard to understand?

Shala.8352:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Shala.8352:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh please, crybabies. Condi damage is so freaking cheesy ….. you can go full tank and still have condi damage. A viable power build would need power AND precision and in most cases even ferocity which makes you instant glass cannon, as in … you get focused for a second and you die.

Meanwhile, to be viable condi DPSer all the stats you need to stack are, wait for it —-————- condi damage. That’s all there is to this braindead gameplay. It has no risk in it. Just reward.

Talk about spamming all you want, but spamming autoattack on a thief/DH and spamming AA on necro are 2 different things.

Oh what was that? Retaliation doesn’t hit back when you attack through condis? Ahh … cool. Meanwhile glass thieves kill themselves on targets with retalionation up.

I can totally see how condition damage is balanced. amirite?

Power needs Precision and ferocity.
Conditions need duration and expertise.

Power/precision/crit damage values are increased with might and fury and ferocity.

Condition values are increased with might to reach a hard ceiling of damage and stacks. Their values don’t increase with precision or fury or ferocity.

All you have successfully proven is that conditions are still weak and need to be buffed so their values also increase with fury or any other value metric.

No one got a critical hit condition damage for 7k. No condition user ever hit for 3.5k on a critical auto attack.

No one ever had their physical damage over written by someone else’s weak physical damage.

Thanks for highlighting conditions need a buff.

Well done. Good argument.

If they don’t need precision and ferocity, then they need less stats XD XD.
And no you don’t need expertise, cuz actualy skills are so bad balanced that they already give an insane amount of seconds of condi, that’s why your argument about “they need to be stack in order to do dmg” totaly crash, because is not hard to reach 25 stack of poison if every time you hit with skills/random aoe you put 10 seconds of 5 stack of poison!!!
Also you don’t need expertise, since condi dmg is bursty! you are not gonna do a DoT, you are gonna do a burst!!! no need expertise for a burst!!!

We can argue all you want, condi players will never admit how easy and braindead their gameplay is compared to power dps builds, men this is a noobfriendly game, thats why we have condi so OP, to help noobs.

And to answer the post aboves, i don’t need any toghness to counter a power dps if i am power dps too, instead i cant counter a condi player without condi cleanser (wich are never high enough, and unbalanced between classes) even if i am a power dps, because the condi player will be tanky as hell while still beeing able to do the dmg.

Also the retalation/weakness/protection/dmg reduction argument is so so obvious that it’s useless repeating it for thousand times, if condi players and Anet balance team don’t get it at the first sight, then we cant avoid their blindness.

Welcome to your new purchase of gw2.
“Those tanky as hell condi players.”
There is 9 amulets in PvP that have the toughness stat. 7 of them are power or healing based. 2 are condi based.

I think the what you mean to say is, “Those tanky as hell power users.”

There is only one rune that affects condi stat and toughness. Undead runes.
There Is 9 runes that affect toughness and vitality.

Every thing your rambling on about just isn’t supported by any evidence.

“they spam conditions…” power users also make pretty effective use of ‘spamming attacks’ as well.

The fact is, if your dying over and over again to conditions, its time you changed, rather than you insist everything else change.

The only ‘tanky as hell’..and “condi spam” build out there is warrior berserker..and if there is any profession that really doesn’t deserve any further nerfs its warrior.

Maybe your talking about evade spam thief?..which is far from tanky.
Maybe your talking about chrono phantasm..which is far from tanky..
Maybe your taking about chill reaper..which is far from tanky…

Any which way, there is no ‘tanky as hell’ condition builds apart from berserker, and lets face it..do we see them dominating the game?…exactly.

You’re just angry because you think condition stacking is for ‘noobs’..yet in the same sentence keep making references to dying to these same noobs. See where I am going with this?..if your dying to conditions, that you feel ‘have been spammed’ by ‘noobs’ that speaks more about where you’re at then anything else.

Before any match starts players can swap to hoelbrak, svanir, generosity, swap to cleansing traits etc etc..it not like options are limited in how to approach this.

However its only of benefit to you if you make use of this and alter your build to accommodate match where you can see there is 2 or more tradition condition users.

Power dmg based amulet are 2, none of them have toghness: marauder and berserker. The other are called tank amulets. If you consider soldier or paladin as power dps amulet, you should know you can’t kill anything with those amulets in any duels. Maybe in group fight you can kill with target focusing, but still if you run those amulets you are a tank, and the funny thing is that you still need cleanser or even your 3k armor will evaporate to condi dmg.
Now if you instead watch at mercenary amulet, you will notice it has condi cap dmg + toghness.
I don’t get why you cant get such a simple thing: condi dmg = power + precision + ferocity. How is it so hard to understand?

They do understand….they simply prefer to fake ignorance

What’s that? Weakness doesn’t affect condi damage? Awww :c Those power builds are spewing such nonsense.

I mean … your low power attacks are reflected by retaliation so its fair amirite. Totally neglecting the fact that its one thing getting the turnaround of 200 damage and its a whole different story to eat the turnaround of 2-3k damage, which btw is your only source of damage.

As a power build you cant stab twice and run away waiting for condis to tick down the enemy while you recover from the retal return. Well take this attribute reduce and -66% power output. Oh, your enemy had protection too? Well F you power user! Go cri for balance!

OH BUT PLS … THE RESISTANCE BOON EXISTS. Now, let’s neglect the fact that only 2-3 classes can apply it …. and let’s focus on the fact that it is a corruptable boon c:

In other news, Gw2 is trying to be an esport. However condition damage is incredibly boring to watch. You do some bogus attacks and start kiting while applying minimum pressure and poof, your target backpedals.

Ever wondered why there is no such concept as condition damage in true esport games? Weakening conditions (through slows or damage neutralization) are perfectly fine, so is CC and hell even CC-lock mechanics because they require effort and timing.

Don’t you dare tell me it’s hard to land conditions. If you do, you can go ahead and uninstall the game because that means you are terribad and your opinion means jack.

Blade & Soul is doing bad but still has a better esport scene without pouring hundreds of thousands of dollars And the combat there is basically who can CC lock better. Nothing spectacular, but fun to watch nonetheless. On a bad day it has more viewers than Gw2 on pro league day :c

Personally I’d like to see more effect from weakness, immobilization, cripple, chill and taunt rather than some artificial burns and poisons and loltorment.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I mean … your low power attacks are reflected by retaliation so its fair amirite. Totally neglecting the fact that its one thing getting the turnaround of 200 damage and its a whole different story to eat the turnaround of 2-3k damage, which btw is your only source of damage.

Retaliation’s damage scales of the boon’s source not the attacker. I could hit someone for 100 or 50k and still get the same amount reflected.

As a power build you cant stab twice and run away waiting for condis to tick down the enemy while you recover from the retal return. Well take this attribute reduce and -66% power output. Oh, your enemy had protection too? Well F you power user! Go cri for balance!

A power build also doesn’t have to wait to for it’s damage since everything is frontloaded. While condi builds have to wait on their condis.

Also your CC argument is a joke. Condi classes don’t intrinsically have more CC.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh please, crybabies. Condi damage is so freaking cheesy ….. you can go full tank and still have condi damage. A viable power build would need power AND precision and in most cases even ferocity which makes you instant glass cannon, as in … you get focused for a second and you die.

Meanwhile, to be viable condi DPSer all the stats you need to stack are, wait for it —-————- condi damage. That’s all there is to this braindead gameplay. It has no risk in it. Just reward.

Talk about spamming all you want, but spamming autoattack on a thief/DH and spamming AA on necro are 2 different things.

Oh what was that? Retaliation doesn’t hit back when you attack through condis? Ahh … cool. Meanwhile glass thieves kill themselves on targets with retalionation up.

I can totally see how condition damage is balanced. amirite?

Power needs Precision and ferocity.
Conditions need duration and expertise.

Except nobody uses duration and expertise ever. The one stat (condition damage) alone is as strong as power+precision+ferocity together.

That said, I think some of the conditions are balanced: confusion and torment seem in a good spot, because they do not damage you a lot all the time. Confusion requires you to stop using skills, torment requires you to stop moving. These are things that can be countered and therefore are good for strategic play. Poison is also a good example: decreases heals when applied, so promotes strategic play (e.g. first cleansing the poison, then healing up). Imo, the permanent tick damage on poison, confusion and torment could even be decreased to 0, so long as their other effect is more effective.

The problem is with conditions like bleed, burn, chill that do excessive amounts of damage and do not have counterplay other than condi cleanse.

If all conditions worked as a ‘conditional’ rather than a ‘damager’ that would add a whole new dimension to the combat.

Crinn.7864:

Ravenmoon.5318:

I mean … your low power attacks are reflected by retaliation so its fair amirite. Totally neglecting the fact that its one thing getting the turnaround of 200 damage and its a whole different story to eat the turnaround of 2-3k damage, which btw is your only source of damage.

Retaliation’s damage scales of the boon’s source not the attacker. I could hit someone for 100 or 50k and still get the same amount reflected.

As a power build you cant stab twice and run away waiting for condis to tick down the enemy while you recover from the retal return. Well take this attribute reduce and -66% power output. Oh, your enemy had protection too? Well F you power user! Go cri for balance!

A power build also doesn’t have to wait to for it’s damage since everything is frontloaded. While condi builds have to wait on their condis.

Also your CC argument is a joke. Condi classes don’t intrinsically have more CC.

What argument about CC. I like CC. It’s better than some bogus chill/burn/etc damage <o> CC abilities are a lot better balanced than condi damage abilities.

And yes even though retal scales with the one having the boon the formula uses power. Every condi build today uses mercenary, which gives power, among other things.

Ravenmoon.5318:

What argument about CC. I like CC. It’s better than some bogus chill/burn/etc damage <o> CC abilities are a lot better balanced than condi damage abilities.

Nevermind misread.

Although the fact that you think CC lock is somehow related is esports is amusing.

Crinn.7864:

Ravenmoon.5318:

What argument about CC. I like CC. It’s better than some bogus chill/burn/etc damage <o> CC abilities are a lot better balanced than condi damage abilities.

Nevermind misread.

Although the fact that you think CC lock is somehow related is esports is amusing.

Do watch some Blade & Soul PvP
Or even Dota 2. There are certain classes with key CC abilities that can win you the game.

Crinn.7864:

Ravenmoon.5318:

I mean … your low power attacks are reflected by retaliation so its fair amirite. Totally neglecting the fact that its one thing getting the turnaround of 200 damage and its a whole different story to eat the turnaround of 2-3k damage, which btw is your only source of damage.

Retaliation’s damage scales of the boon’s source not the attacker. I could hit someone for 100 or 50k and still get the same amount reflected.

As a power build you cant stab twice and run away waiting for condis to tick down the enemy while you recover from the retal return. Well take this attribute reduce and -66% power output. Oh, your enemy had protection too? Well F you power user! Go cri for balance!

A power build also doesn’t have to wait to for it’s damage since everything is frontloaded. While condi builds have to wait on their condis.

Also your CC argument is a joke. Condi classes don’t intrinsically have more CC.

With the way chill, confusion and torment work right now on mesmer and necro…I’d say that your statement is purely a lie. The idea that “condi builds have to wait on their condis” was correct in pre-hot GW2…definitely not now.

If condition dmg is a bigger isse than power dmg, then why

do most scrapper use bulwark gyro instead of elixier c?
do most druids use protective ward and SoS instead of EB and SotR?
do most (all?) meta builds not stack as much condi cleanse as possible?
is power rev even meta?

Power seems sometimes weak, because many builds invest heavily into defense against power. Otherwise we could all skillfully oneshot each other.

Edit: I really wonder how you all manage to get those incredibly high condi ticks. If i die to condis (which of course happens) it is usually 2-3k ticks at max. Often lower. That’s the dmg powerbuilds can do with autoattacks. The only really bursty condi builds are burn guard and burn engi (and maybe mistrust condi mesmer – the meta build is not bursty though) and both are not meta.

yes some condis are applied as the known condi bomb. If you don´t play perfect attention or have important cleaners on cooldown this hits nearly like a burst and the hard thing is then when its combined with a lot cover conditions. I know why the stack limits where removed but it hurts. I like it how it is but i feel the necro is out of control here. The reson is not that its fightable in good teams, it is to much in random teams and forces condi removal.
I can handle it. I don´t press ready immidiately. I look at the oposing team first and bring condi defence if needed …. Multiple necros are still very hard because they tend to whipe my team ….

UmbraNoctis.1907:

If condition dmg is a bigger isse than power dmg, then why

do most scrapper use bulwark gyro instead of elixier c?
do most druids use protective ward and SoS instead of EB and SotR?
do most (all?) meta builds not stack as much condi cleanse as possible?
is power rev even meta?

Power seems sometimes weak, because many builds invest heavily into defense against power. Otherwise we could all skillfully oneshot each other.

Edit: I really wonder how you all manage to get those incredibly high condi ticks. If i die to condis (which of course happens) it is usually 2-3k ticks at max. Often lower. That’s the dmg powerbuilds can do with autoattacks. The only really bursty condi builds are burn guard and burn engi (and maybe mistrust condi mesmer – the meta build is not bursty though) and both are not meta.

Go power shiro, i’ll go condi mes. I’ll tie my hand behind my back. Name the time. I prefer the place to be the middle of foefire or quarry at foefire or henge of niflhel. If condis were fine you’d have at least 1 build that would shut me down.

If you can’t find that build your point is numb

I’ve never played necro in my life but i’m willing to try spamwich or w/e is jazz now.

Even if you have legit point in saying that necro needs a rework (you are not saying it though) the fact that 2-3 necros stacked against power builds completely obliterate them with application and reapplication forcing you to rotate and possibly fight against a hardcounter or rotate even further.

Don’t you bring WvW in this discussion. There’s a WvW subforum. Good luck there. The issue PvP players have is that condi builds are able to tank a capture point while being very good at dishing out damage forcing you to backpedal and thus decap you even or forbid you a point.

WvW is completely different pie… you can mix and match gear and foods to mostly negate condi and make it the joke it needs to be.

I’ll admit, I haven’t played WvW in awhile but i remember shortbow/sword ranger being cancer and that nobody ran wvw without lemongrass soup, whch makes conditions kind of trivial. You don’t have this in spvp. And your stats are generally lower.

For instance, I used to play valkyrie thief and I hardly lost to other thieves or otherwise power builds. However, valkyrie thief in pvp is kind of .. meh :/

So what? Condi mes wins vs power rev? No surprise. Rev is still meta despite being weak vs condis. (I would lose vs anything with rev, because i suck at playing it. I wouldn’t mind dueling you with ranger though)
You don’t answer my questions btw …

I think i never lost a match against 3+ necros with a more power focused team. They don’t stack that well. I still think they should get nerfed, just like many other builds.

And i never said anything about wvw (ppl are crying there about condis as much as in pvp – no difference)

UmbraNoctis.1907:

So what? Condi mes wins vs power rev? No surprise. Rev is still meta despite being weak vs condis.

It wouldn’t have mattered if you were the greatest revenant in existence. Even then you might not die due to kiting but you’ll leave the capture point which is all i need anyway. Meanwhile, I’m far from the greatest mesmer It’s just what I used to climb up the ladder because thief was ineffective. It was a lot easier on mesmer even though I have about a thousand of games on thief and I consider myself good on it. My girlfriend was switching druid/necro depending on enemy team comp. We needed truly terrible teammates to lose these games. I hardly died, even in loss.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

(I would lose vs anything with rev, because i suck at playing it. I wouldn’t mind dueling you with ranger though)

I’m willing to try your druid with a necro (a class i’ve never played)

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I think i never lost a match against 3+ necros with a more power focused team. They don’t stack that well.

What do you mean by ‘more power focused team’? Because against 3 necs your revenants would fall flat on their faces most of the time. Even the mallyx ones. An ele could trip the scales but people hardly play ele good these days. I usually am teamed with bad eles that don’t sustain teammates.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And i never said anything about wvw (ppl are crying there about condis as much as in pvp – no difference)

Hmm my bad then. I thought you were talking about WvW in previous posts of yours. Probably I confused you.

EDIT: And to answer your questions, it’s better to bring defense because condi cleanse abilities are bad and have awful utility. 50% damage reduction AoE with 15 second uptime and daze trumps condi to boon convert, unless you are chilled but this is very conditional. And well, if there are necros they’ll probably instantly convert those converted boons back into conditions.

I’ve never played druid but I suspect protective ward has a better utility against random damage against whatever else you said.

On the explanation of bulwark….once you use elixir c you forget about that utility for about 40 seconds in which time you eat power and condition damage

With bulwark … there’s nothing a necro can do to convert your non existing boons so in a way it even lowers application. And it is on a 20 second cooldown.

Perhaps if elixir c was buffing my whole team with resistance too and anet rework resistance into non-convertible boon, maybe every engi under the sun will pick elixir C. Oh and a lowered cooldown will surely help.

EDIT 2: Not to mention that most condi cleanse abilities cancel 1-3 conditions completely on random and that makes them utterly useless. Skills like shadow step on a thief a great because they strip everything, but majority of condi cleanse is partial, on high cooldown and no other utility. It can’t be compared to stun breaker type skills that come from power countering abilities.

Supreme.3164:

With the way chill, confusion and torment work right now on mesmer and necro…I’d say that your statement is purely a lie. The idea that “condi builds have to wait on their condis” was correct in pre-hot GW2…definitely not now.

This is so hilarious wrong.

I can get on almost any power class hit 1 button and instantly hit someone for 5k+.

To do that on a condi class I have to apply several condis and then wait for the condis to tick several times.

Compared to power damage (which is INSTANT) condi damage is delayed no matter how you spin it.

And if you have a problem with reapers and condi mesmers, you should write a thread about reapers and condi mesmers.
But of course you have to be completely unreasonable and instead try and get every single condi build in the game gutted despite the fact that the majority of condi builds in this game are underpowered.

yep ist two builds. And very funny but i have the feeling that a warrior, which is considered trash, can kill both builds with ease ….
I am bad with worrior but getting better. Guess i dig him out and try …

Ravenmoon.5318:

[…]
On the explanation of bulwark….once you use elixir c you forget about that utility for about 40 seconds in which time you eat power and condition damage[…]

Elixier C (traited) is a full cleanse every 32 seconds + additional aoe cleanse every 20 seconds which is pretty strong. Boon corruption isn’t really an argument against it, because you will have boons on you almost all the time anyways. Some other condi clear skills and traits are far from being bad either, they aren’t used, because other stuff like defense against power dmg is more important.

Btw, we can duel anytime, just /w ingame.

Ravenmoon.5318:

If you can’t find that build your point is numb

Hoelbrak+elixir C engie

I think, he meant power rev builds only. Not sure if power rev can beat condi mes unless there is a big difference in player skill. Luckily pvp isn’t about 1vs1 only, so those poor revs doesn’t have to worry too much about filthy condi mesmer and necros.

Crinn.7864:

Supreme.3164:

With the way chill, confusion and torment work right now on mesmer and necro…I’d say that your statement is purely a lie. The idea that “condi builds have to wait on their condis” was correct in pre-hot GW2…definitely not now.

This is so hilarious wrong.

I can get on almost any power class hit 1 button and instantly hit someone for 5k+.

To do that on a condi class I have to apply several condis and then wait for the condis to tick several times.

Compared to power damage (which is INSTANT) condi damage is delayed no matter how you spin it.

In my memory the only dd skill that can reach 5k+ dmg despite all the protection/toughness in game would be…precision strike and the skill is made up 3 projectiles with flying animation, enough to dodge some of them even at close distance ( 180 radius min ) and the range is 600

And despite all this, the hard mitigation of direct dmg is never ending where once you run out of cd, you’re kittened against condi

The main problem is amount of condies applied in single instance and secondary problem is lack of hard mitigation

Against power you have :
-Toughness
-protection
-retaliation
-weakness

Which not only are offered in abundance but also ready available to 80% of professions

Now against condition we have only:
-condi clear
-resistance

The first is not given in abundance and often linked to hefty CD , also only capable to clear 1-2 condis at time, the second is very rare and therefore easily corruptible.

I don’t think it’d be fair to propose the reintroduction of traits like diamond skin or automated response, I recognize that the proposal would be more out of spite than necessity.

At this point I believe it’d be great to increase the amount of skills that offer resistance, specifically just to warrior and in such quantities that seeing a warrior in the enemy team may suggest stacked necro teams to reroll or run the risk of being defeated easily

I can think of many skills, that can hit for more than 5k. Not everyone has perma protection and other dmg reducing stuff. And not every condi cleanse is on high cooldown and removes only 1-2 condis.

And what would keep those almost “unkillable” bruiser/bunker builds in check, if we nerf the only things that can counter them? Currently condi necro/mes is kinda necessary to deal with scrapper/ele/rev beause those are just as op in their own department.

Retaliation doesn’t protect you from dmg.

Increasing resistance aviability would nerf all non necro condi builds more than necros, because they can’t get rid of the boon. And high uptime of total immunity against anything is not good for the game imo.

The way I see it is that condi damage limits the amount of builds available for people to play. Its almost impossible to be affective without some form of condition clear. For example, I played fresh air ele one match and a necro beat me by constantly applying just chill.

Sure people are playing bunkers that fight vs power, but you hardly see anyone playing straight dps these days because being vulnerable to condi damage and power damage is a huge disadvantage.

Mesmers can kill you by pretty much making you attack and move. Forcing you to have no condition clears. Necros can kill you simply by spamming chill.

If condi is not stronger than power than how come you don’t see power necros and shatter mesmers? Its easier to kill a bunker with condis than it is with power.

FrownyClown.8402:

The way I see it is that condi damage limits the amount of builds available for people to play. Its almost impossible to be affective without some form of condition clear. For example, I played fresh air ele one match and a necro beat me by constantly applying just chill.

Just like it is impossible to be effective without defense against power burst, CC and stuff like that. As a fresh air ele a thief or rev can destroy you just as easily. And just look at power revs. They are weak vs condis, yet one of the strongest builds out there. Lack of build diversity is not a condi issue. It is more a powercrep/elite spec issue.

FrownyClown.8402:

If condi is not stronger than power than how come you don’t see power necros and shatter mesmers? Its easier to kill a bunker with condis than it is with power.

Why don’t we see condi engis, or condi eles or condi guards and less condi revs than power revs if condi dmg is stronger than power dmg?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I can think of many skills, that can hit for more than 5k. Not everyone has perma protection and other dmg reducing stuff. And not every condi cleanse is on high cooldown and removes only 1-2 condis.

And what would keep those almost “unkillable” bruiser/bunker builds in check, if we nerf the only things that can counter them? Currently condi necro/mes is kinda necessary to deal with scrapper/ele/rev beause those are just as op in their own department.

Retaliation doesn’t protect you from dmg.

Increasing resistance aviability would nerf all non necro condi builds more than necros, because they can’t get rid of the boon. And high uptime of total immunity against anything is not good for the game imo.

And what keep mesmer and necro in check?
At the moment there is nothing keeping these two in check in a 1vs1 scenario, they’re great both in 1vs1 and teamfights, this allows stacking at all levels of play saves ESL where rotations are the norm and not the a rarity

Time and time again in the past, any build that could be beaten only by coordinated team effort has been nerfed.

It was the same story with :
turret engi-d/d ele-spirit ranger-shoutbow etc etc
All these builds were “relatively” weaker at ESL level where they appeared more fair to fight against, but at the lower end?….it was certainly not as easy.

Atm we need a 1v1 hardcounter with an equal low skill floor which would make it more accessible to the masses, the same that use mesmer and necro.

I believe that the “rock paper scissor” balance i the only achievable one in GW2, too late for anything else, it would require massive changes at the foundations

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I can think of many skills, that can hit for more than 5k. Not everyone has perma protection and other dmg reducing stuff. And not every condi cleanse is on high cooldown and removes only 1-2 condis.

And what would keep those almost “unkillable” bruiser/bunker builds in check, if we nerf the only things that can counter them? Currently condi necro/mes is kinda necessary to deal with scrapper/ele/rev beause those are just as op in their own department.

Retaliation doesn’t protect you from dmg.

Increasing resistance aviability would nerf all non necro condi builds more than necros, because they can’t get rid of the boon. And high uptime of total immunity against anything is not good for the game imo.

Power builds keep other power builds in check. For example, last year before the June nerf nobody was running power because thief was shredding every and any power build with few strikes. It sounds easier to pull of than it sounds but thieves had 2-3 viable builds and all of them were heavy hitters with good “sustain” and basically panic strike meant death. In retrospect, Immobilize is hugely ignored these days because of random “movement abilities cancel immobilizing conditions” kind of traits. Brought to you by #Gw2HoT

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And high uptime of total immunity against anything is not good for the game imo.

Like the mesmer’s double block + distortion + well of precognition?

I get it Power has no counter play amirite?

I would make warrior a hardcounter to reaper. A trait like immue to chill for warriors (not a corruptable resistance).
Or smite evil for guard that deals double damage against a shroud ^^.
Woot warrior is back and necro has to watch out ….
Agaisnt a mesmer i think warrior is already top… Just don´t miss the mesmer and hit a clone…

Which power builds are going to keep revs, scrapper, ele and druid in check? Thieves? Warriers? DHs? Those classes aren’t viable for good reasons, and those reason are not (only) condis. Nerfing only one part of the most op builds and nerfing already weak builds on top of it will lower build diversity even more. Condi builds are part of the game and should have their place just like power builds, bunker, support and whatever else. Power only would be the opposite of diversity.

Btw, nobody running power back then is wrong. Power rifle engi, hambow war, medi guard, just to mention few old meta builds. Many glass cannon builds were not viable because of thief, but not all power builds have to be full glass.

And i don’t get, where i said, there is no counter to power? Actually i think there is too much of pretty much everything – condis and boons, burst and dmg negation, passive defensive procs and random offensive procs, cc and stab and so on. That’s why i think, more powercreep in form of resistance spam is bad.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Which power builds are going to keep revs, scrapper, ele and druid in check? Thieves? Warriers? DHs? Those classes aren’t viable for good reasons, and those reason are not (only) condis. Nerfing only one part of the most op builds and nerfing already weak builds on top of it will lower build diversity even more. Condi builds are part of the game and should have their place just like power builds, bunker, support and whatever else. Power only would be the opposite of diversity.

Btw, nobody running power back then is wrong. Power rifle engi, hambow war, medi guard, just to mention few old meta builds. Many glass cannon builds were not viable because of thief, but not all power builds have to be full glass.

And i don’t get, where i said, there is no counter to power? Actually i think there is too much of pretty much everything – condis and boons, burst and dmg negation, passive defensive procs and random offensive procs, cc and stab and so on. That’s why i think, more powercreep in form of resistance spam is bad.

You keep running in circles like somebody who runs out of arguments…
More or less people here are asking for something to keep in check reaper and mesmer, we’re not even advocating anymore for any nerf of sort but the point is if you want hardcounter to exist in gw2, it’s logical to expect a hardcounter for all classes…noty just power

And I want to be precise, we don’t need “just” a hardcounter, we need a counter to condi meta build that requires same level of skill floor

The counter will be ofc hardcountered by power specs, this to force rotations on all sides and stopping chronocondi/reapers far pushers from dominating the scene as nobody can currently keep the point against them 1vs1

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Which power builds are going to keep revs, scrapper, ele and druid in check? Thieves? Warriers? DHs? Those classes aren’t viable for good reasons, and those reason are not (only) condis. Nerfing only one part of the most op builds and nerfing already weak builds on top of it will lower build diversity even more. Condi builds are part of the game and should have their place just like power builds, bunker, support and whatever else. Power only would be the opposite of diversity.

See … this is broken logic. Condi damage should be additional damage over time, not the only freaking tool. More control abilities like weakness and cripple could or would slowdown power blowouts and will bring a more fun experience.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Btw, nobody running power back then is wrong. Power rifle engi, hambow war, medi guard, just to mention few old meta builds. Many glass cannon builds were not viable because of thief, but not all power builds have to be full glass.

Rifle engi had really hard time against thief back then, actually most people complaining about how OP stealth was were probably engineers. Hambow didn’t exist last june, lets face it. Shoutbow was outplaying the power warrior. Hambow was a joke to thief, unless the thief tripped and went into CC lock. S/D thief ate hambows for breakfast mind you, Because of superior evade frames. Also I can see power shatter as the perfect counter for power shiro if ANet has the balls to revert the power shatter nerf they did. And yeah I forgot about medi guard, this build was a real ham. True true

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And i don’t get, where i said, there is no counter to power? Actually i think there is too much of pretty much everything – condis and boons, burst and dmg negation, passive defensive procs and random offensive procs, cc and stab and so on. That’s why i think, more powercreep in form of resistance spam is bad.

Condi needs more counter play, things other than wasting utility slot on cleansing only 1 condition when you have super high application.

And as I said in my previous post, most condi cleanses are bad utilities. With the exception of shadow step, which actually does something other than cleansing. It’s an actual utility. Although the decent cooldown makes it a little bit ~~~ meh to fight versus condi build. It’s a good 50 seconds base cooldown. A condi user is perfectly capable of reapplying everything back within those 50 seconds and then some. The only way a thief could beat condi ranger back in the day was thanks to the ability they steal from them, which didnt have a cooldown back then. Now it does. And the fight is a bit difficult.

Actually … I think it would be fine if weakness and protection could’ve been used as condition counterplay.

Or something more interesting like might cancelling out weakness or protection cancelling out weakness. Regen cancelling out poison. I’ve always found it funny to see a crippled guy with swiftness. It makes no sense whatsoever

Condi necro already gets countered by focus fire and rotations/mobility. (And i’m sure, certain builds can counter them 1vs1 – they might be not meta though because 1vs1 counter to necro is not mandatory enough to even out their weaknesses) As i already said, i haven’t had too much problems against teams with multiple necros (soloQ). (And necros pushing far are usually the first ones who die …). Idk about mesmer, so far i’m not worried too much about them. Probably because those mesmer players weren’t that great.
But i’m totally fine with a hard counter to condi necro/mes who has its own counter. But then why is every one talking about nerfing (deleting) condis in general? That’s two different things …

Ravenmoon.5318:

See … this is broken logic. Condi damage should be additional damage over time, not the only freaking tool. More control abilities like weakness and cripple could or would slowdown power blowouts and will bring a more fun experience.

Power builds don’t need additional dmg from condis, why would you even use them, if they can’t do things on their own? Let’s be honest. You don’t like condi builds. That’s fine. But that doesn’t justify the deletion this entire playstyle.

Ravenmoon.5318:

And as I said in my previous post, most condi cleanses are bad utilities. With the exception of shadow step, which actually does something other than cleansing. It’s an actual utility. Although the decent cooldown makes it a little bit ~~~ meh to fight versus condi build.

I can think of many decent condi cleanse abilities. And not only skills but also traits can offer condi remove. Often passive, so you don’t even have to think about it. (Thief can remove condis frequently through dodging or sitting in stealth – and yes, you have to trait for it, but you don’t get anything else for free either).

Btw i have read quite often that daredevil counters condi reaper. I don’t play neither of those classes, so i can’t say for sure if it is true, but since necos don’t have much defense against burst and dd can avoid getting hit quite well, it might work.

Ravenmoon.5318:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

If condition dmg is a bigger isse than power dmg, then why

do most scrapper use bulwark gyro instead of elixier c?
do most druids use protective ward and SoS instead of EB and SotR?
do most (all?) meta builds not stack as much condi cleanse as possible?
is power rev even meta?

Power seems sometimes weak, because many builds invest heavily into defense against power. Otherwise we could all skillfully oneshot each other.

Edit: I really wonder how you all manage to get those incredibly high condi ticks. If i die to condis (which of course happens) it is usually 2-3k ticks at max. Often lower. That’s the dmg powerbuilds can do with autoattacks. The only really bursty condi builds are burn guard and burn engi (and maybe mistrust condi mesmer – the meta build is not bursty though) and both are not meta.

Go power shiro, i’ll go condi mes. I’ll tie my hand behind my back. Name the time. I prefer the place to be the middle of foefire or quarry at foefire or henge of niflhel. If condis were fine you’d have at least 1 build that would shut me down.

If you can’t find that build your point is numb

I’ve never played necro in my life but i’m willing to try spamwich or w/e is jazz now.

Even if you have legit point in saying that necro needs a rework (you are not saying it though) the fact that 2-3 necros stacked against power builds completely obliterate them with application and reapplication forcing you to rotate and possibly fight against a hardcounter or rotate even further.

Don’t you bring WvW in this discussion. There’s a WvW subforum. Good luck there. The issue PvP players have is that condi builds are able to tank a capture point while being very good at dishing out damage forcing you to backpedal and thus decap you even or forbid you a point.

WvW is completely different pie… you can mix and match gear and foods to mostly negate condi and make it the joke it needs to be.

I’ll admit, I haven’t played WvW in awhile but i remember shortbow/sword ranger being cancer and that nobody ran wvw without lemongrass soup, whch makes conditions kind of trivial. You don’t have this in spvp. And your stats are generally lower.

For instance, I used to play valkyrie thief and I hardly lost to other thieves or otherwise power builds. However, valkyrie thief in pvp is kind of .. meh :/

Just to clarify, i don’t know what’s the situation on NA servers, but in EU most of the so called “hardcore wvw guilds” are raiding with condi builds, especialy in GvG. This is because in wvw you can have even more unbalanced stats combination (Trailblazer’s,Dire and co.) and they are so able to put heavy dmg without needing to concentrate it at the same moment with a stunlock/immobilize chain, while still having a very high sustain.
So maybe yes in eb blob fights you can still run zerker, but thats because the number of players is so high that you can kite back while being hurt, you don’t need to put constant pressure like an outnumbered avoc group.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Condi necro already gets countered by focus fire and rotations/mobility. (And i’m sure, certain builds can counter them 1vs1 – they might be not meta though because 1vs1 counter to necro is not mandatory enough to even out their weaknesses) As i already said, i haven’t had too much problems against teams with multiple necros (soloQ). (And necros pushing far are usually the first ones who die …). Idk about mesmer, so far i’m not worried too much about them. Probably because those mesmer players weren’t that great.
But i’m totally fine with a hard counter to condi necro/mes who has its own counter. But then why is every one talking about nerfing (deleting) condis in general? That’s two different things …

Everything is countered by focus fire, how is this a valid argument? Thing is, there needs to be a class or better yet bunch of classes that are better than a single other build. Because otherwise it leads to comp > rotations > team > player skill type of play. And I would like to be able to pick and win my fights. I can hardly do this against comps with mixed condi and power builds and sustain. Infact it’s highly likely im being shutdown on every corner. I might not be dying but forcing me to backpedal every few minutes is not nice. And I tend to dodge the heavy hitters, while my opponents straight up eat backstabs and don’t give 2 cents about. Thus … i made mesmer and now I am the one who doesn’t give 2 cents about the nearby teef. All of my dps is AoE, i don’t give a rats kitten where he’s hiding at in stealth.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Ravenmoon.5318:

See … this is broken logic. Condi damage should be additional damage over time, not the only freaking tool. More control abilities like weakness and cripple could or would slowdown power blowouts and will bring a more fun experience.

Power builds don’t need additional dmg from condis, why would you even use them, if they can’t do things on their own? Let’s be honest. You don’t like condi builds. That’s fine. But that doesn’t justify the deletion this entire playstyle.

It adds pressure, but not the kind of pressure that kills you. And maybe a damage cap is overkill but base duration and intensity should be really low. It’s idiotic to have just one power up stat and wreck everyone stepping through.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Btw i have read quite often that daredevil counters condi reaper. I don’t play neither of those classes, so i can’t say for sure if it is true, but since necos don’t have much defense against burst and dd can avoid getting hit quite well, it might work.

In 1v1 yeah the thief has upper hand through CCs and nullification of initial condi burst through shadow step. However, place the thief in a teamfight against reaper and something else that has aoes (god forbid a second reaper) and the thief is backpedalling

Some classes/builds can deal with focus better than necro, that’s what i’m talking about. And now you are talking about thief being weak, but that is not a condi issue either. And many condi builds are even weaker than some thief builds, why do you want to nerf those too?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Some classes/builds can deal with focus better than necro, that’s what i’m talking about. And now you are talking about thief being weak, but that is not a condi issue either. And many condi builds are even weaker than some thief builds, why do you want to nerf those too?

Since the beginning of this thread you have proven that you shouldn’t really speak on this topic any further.

Supreme.3164:

In my memory the only dd skill that can reach 5k+ dmg despite all the protection/toughness in game would be…precision strike and the skill is made up 3 projectiles with flying animation, enough to dodge some of them even at close distance ( 180 radius min ) and the range is 600

Let’s be fair. I can use a rev hammer auto attack and sit at the back and score instant 1.5k -2k auto attacks. With quickness, that’s on average around 3k damage per second. Mix in Shiro heal air/blood sigils and the damage goes even higher. That’s on average 5k damage per second. Sword auto attack? Same deal.

Hammer #2 can reach 5k, AoE, from a distance. Unrelenting Assault can reach 5k. Surge of the Mists can reach 5k, AoE. Precision Strike, Equilibrium+Hydromancy can reach 4kish, Facet of Elements can reach 5k through a few pulses…
So saying you can easily do 5k damage instantly with a power build is very realistic and yes, many/most of those are AoE.

Supreme.3164:

Against power you have :
-Toughness
-protection
-weakness

Now against condition we have only:
-condi clear
-resistance

Actually, vitality is to condi as toughness is to power damage. Having 20k hp as opposed to 13k hp – which one will die quicker to condis? 13k hp.

Another point – might actually scales better with power attacks. Having 25 might with a power build makes a much bigger difference, imo. Might = increased power which then scales with critical damage, vuln, and damage modifiers so the effect magnifies. Condi dmg? Still condi damage, nothing increasing them further, only vuln.

And this still doesn’t explain the fact that all of the power builds can run fairly glassy amulets and STILL have insane tankyness… so it doesn’t even matter if they ran glassy, they’re still very tanky.

MethaneGas.8357:

Actually, vitality is to condi as toughness is to power damage. Having 20k hp as opposed to 13k hp – which one will die quicker to condis? 13k hp.

Works the same way with power dmg tho, this point is kidna meh

Idk why condi plebs keep bringing that vitality and focus fire is the counterplay to condition damage ….

Same stat counters power builds too with the exception that there is toughness too. Back when hambow was a thing I found it kinda hard to fight these guys because my thief at the time was used to 2-shot people, but those wretched warriors had 20k hp and this more time to shred me. The stunlock hype was real

And focus fire can kill any build under the sun.

Both points are moot points and you should stop make yourself look stupid by using it. Logic … use it.

And if revenant hammer was as kitten as people describe it, why is it … nobody in their right mind uses hammer?