Guild Wars 2

Woops, wrong account. That is me however.

Moisttowlete.8074:

So your burst combo is.

Signet + Venom -> Black Powder + Heartseek -> mid air steal -> into backstab?

also since you play a roamer, how do you feel about Signet of Shadows. Just started fulfilling the roamer roll for my group and that extra speed feels so nice for getting around the map. But cant tell yet if that damage loss is too extreme to justify it.

That is full combo, I don’t use it unless I know that they don’t have stun breaks – otherwise you will never hit backstab.

SoS is good, find which you like better and use it. Infiltrator’s Signet is another viable alternative. Find a play-style, refine it, and use what fits that play-style.

Moisttowlete.8074:

Also can anyone answer, I’ve been watching your videos. Can you hit backstab from a distance and “steal step” to target and still get the backstab trigger?

Yes.

Narcarsis.5739:

Moisttowlete.8074:

So your burst combo is.

Signet + Venom -> Black Powder + Heartseek -> mid air steal -> into backstab?

also since you play a roamer, how do you feel about Signet of Shadows. Just started fulfilling the roamer roll for my group and that extra speed feels so nice for getting around the map. But cant tell yet if that damage loss is too extreme to justify it.

That is full combo, I don’t use it unless I know that they don’t have stun breaks – otherwise you will never hit backstab.

SoS is good, find which you like better and use it. Infiltrator’s Signet is another viable alternative. Find a play-style, refine it, and use what fits that play-style.

That is a question that was always lurking in my mind while watching your vids ( and jumper’s, before he quit).

y u no haste ?

Isn’t it a better choice overall ?

It seems that only in NA thieves use kitten signet , in EU it’s a feast of haste, stealth clipping, thieves ( me being one of them).

What is the logic behind choosing ths signet over haste ?

Mrbig.8019:

That is a question that was always lurking in my mind while watching your vids ( and jumper’s, before he quit).

y u no haste ?

Isn’t it a better choice overall ?

It seems that only in NA thieves use kitten signet , in EU it’s a feast of haste, stealth clipping, thieves ( me being one of them).

What is the logic behind choosing ths signet over haste ?

Haste is an all in. While it has it’s fair share of usefulness in situations (stomps, res, damage) it comes with severe drawbacks. The issue with haste is that is drains your endurance and leaves you with no defensive whatsoever. You can’t dodge, you either burn your initiative on bursting someone with haste or you hasted disabling shot and burn through it all before your haste even ends.

If I see a thief with haste it’s incredibly easy to avoid heartseekers through an immobilize, chill, cripple, evade (shortbow 3), daze, stun. However on his end he eats a my entire burst with Assassin’s Signet and no way to dodge it. With signet you gain your damage bonus, do your additional damage, have no adverse side effects, and do so with a shorter cooldown (all while keeping initiative). I see no benefit to running haste over Assassin’s Signet due to the trade offs. It’s an all in ability that is easily countered and punished verses a safer yet just as effective damage boost.

That being said the X point trait in Critical Strikes (called Critical Haste) is amazing. Half the CD for half the duration yet no negative drawbacks. Just keep track of the CD on it (30 seconds) and you won’t have any issues with RNG.

Just as a side note; people have tried to Haste stealth clip bug me and I can ShS out and have a free kill due to their lack of endurance.

Advice to people having trouble with it: Watch your HP bar, don’t wait for something to pop up next to your dead body.

Mrbig.8019:

Narcarsis.5739:

Moisttowlete.8074:

So your burst combo is.

Signet + Venom -> Black Powder + Heartseek -> mid air steal -> into backstab?

also since you play a roamer, how do you feel about Signet of Shadows. Just started fulfilling the roamer roll for my group and that extra speed feels so nice for getting around the map. But cant tell yet if that damage loss is too extreme to justify it.

That is full combo, I don’t use it unless I know that they don’t have stun breaks – otherwise you will never hit backstab.

SoS is good, find which you like better and use it. Infiltrator’s Signet is another viable alternative. Find a play-style, refine it, and use what fits that play-style.

That is a question that was always lurking in my mind while watching your vids ( and jumper’s, before he quit).

y u no haste ?

Isn’t it a better choice overall ?

It seems that only in NA thieves use kitten signet , in EU it’s a feast of haste, stealth clipping, thieves ( me being one of them).

What is the logic behind choosing ths signet over haste ?

Haste only works if you can catch someone unexpected and they have no stunbreakers nor fast reaction time.

Haste is bad for backstab for these reasons:

1 – Stunbreaker, especially when fighting another thief…if they shadowstep away, you are not going to catch them no matter how many heartseekers you spam. That is because haste makes your heartseekers travel distance drastically decrease and you end up looking like you are doing it in 1 spot.

2 – If you mess up your combo, you will have 0 endurance, and it won’t regenerate for another 4 seconds. If someone stunbreaks and/or blocks your haste combo, you’re pretty much dead unless you shadowstep away and shadow refuge or something because you won’t be able to dodge anything. 2 things that kill thieves the most – no initiative, and no dodges.

3 – Sin signet (for example) gives you 90 power on passive which means you get more dmg on ANYTHING you do including when you’re using shortbow. And when you pop it, you get 15% more dmg on 5 hits that follows it. Our d/p combo is BP -> HS -> Steal ->BS – (#1 or HS) That’s exactly 5 attacks, which is perfect for the signet’s use. Obviously as you play you’ll learn to use the signet in other formats, but that’s the typical usage. I’ve tested this, and with sin signet, your full d/p combo is rougly 3-5k more damage than if you don’t use it. That is a big difference in ending someone’s life or them living and getting away.

Hope that helps!

narcarsis.5791:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Narcarsis.5739

With the D/P Backstab build, how are you consistently getting into position without any sort of speed boost (Fleet shadow, SoS)? (As a side-note – the spec I run should also have an additional second of stealth thanks to MwS, but according to testing by another player on the boards, MwS is currently bugged and does not affect stealth gained by BP->HS)

I’m currently running D/P (25/15/30/0/0) with Devourers,SoS,Shadowstep and Basilisk. Good players tend to keep moving and dodging whenever I enter stealth; even with SoS, there are times where I have to decide quickly if I want to just let stealth drop or try for a front stab. Basically, what are you doing against players who know what to expect when you enter stealth?

For the backstab, patience and deception are your friends. Be patient with your burst and pressure them to use their defensive CDs (stun breaks, dodge rolls, etc). Once they’re gone burst them.

Positioning is something you’ll learn as time goes on. Think more vertically than horizontally. Get high ground and be patient, only go in for a kill when you can secure it.

P.S. I will not quit this game. And I’m always willing to answer questions – Through this post preferably.

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

@amaterasu & caed

I see.

I still prefer haste for its overall usefulness ( stomps and rez mostly, sometimes i use it simply for those ones), especially since when i miss the burst, i usually gtfo anyway, unless the situation requires me in.

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Overall it’s just a matter of tastes,and i can agree the signet can be better in certain situations ( for istance, when your burst fails to kill your opponent and he still has invuln/stunbreakers up) and worse in other ones ( like when your opponent already used his stunbreakers/invulns).

evilapprentice.6379:

narcarsis.5791:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Narcarsis.5739

With the D/P Backstab build, how are you consistently getting into position without any sort of speed boost (Fleet shadow, SoS)? (As a side-note – the spec I run should also have an additional second of stealth thanks to MwS, but according to testing by another player on the boards, MwS is currently bugged and does not affect stealth gained by BP->HS)

I’m currently running D/P (25/15/30/0/0) with Devourers,SoS,Shadowstep and Basilisk. Good players tend to keep moving and dodging whenever I enter stealth; even with SoS, there are times where I have to decide quickly if I want to just let stealth drop or try for a front stab. Basically, what are you doing against players who know what to expect when you enter stealth?

For the backstab, patience and deception are your friends. Be patient with your burst and pressure them to use their defensive CDs (stun breaks, dodge rolls, etc). Once they’re gone burst them.

Positioning is something you’ll learn as time goes on. Think more vertically than horizontally. Get high ground and be patient, only go in for a kill when you can secure it.

P.S. I will not quit this game. And I’m always willing to answer questions – Through this post preferably.

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

Positioning comes with experience and learning to observe the other player. Backstab’s “back” range is pretty lenient…you could pretty much hit someone from the side and it’ll count as back…

What you need to do is learn not to approach the backstab combo from the front…even if you so much as dodge roll, rotate your camera a bit, then do the combo…you’re probably going to hit them from the side.

SoS does definitely help with positioning, but with experience and learning how to position yourself, you’re not going to need it.

evilapprentice.6379:

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

If you’re only using backstab for damage then that’s your problem. You have other skills that do considerable damage on a far more consistent and less restrictive basis. Use backstab for burst, not consistent DPS. Wear someone down then burst them, or burst someone then pressure them to death (the latter tends to work better in most situations as people are forced to be on the defensive rather then counter burst you). You have innumerable amounts of gap closers. No one should ever escape you. If they manage to break distance don’t underestimate surprise shot/clusters. Don’t put yourself in poor positions because you want to get a backstab off.

Mrbig.8019:

@amaterasu & caed

I see.

I still prefer haste for its overall usefulness ( stomps and rez mostly, sometimes i use it simply for those ones), especially since when i miss the burst, i usually gtfo anyway, unless the situation requires me in.

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Overall it’s just a matter of tastes,and i can agree the signet can be better in certain situations ( for istance, when your burst fails to kill your opponent and he still has invuln/stunbreakers up) and worse in other ones ( like when your opponent already used his stunbreakers/invulns).

Shadowshot only works if the person is within 900 range…shadowstep is 1200 and from experience, I pretty much always nail the 1200 range unless i am in a tight space and have nowhere to go…

Also stomping with haste is a waste imo…so many classes could get their cc off before you can haste stomp. Blackpowder and the occasional shadowstep/steal stomp is plenty of options to stomp. I personally would never use haste since its on a 60s cd.

Mrbig.8019:

@amaterasu & caed

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Overall it’s just a matter of tastes,and i can agree the signet can be better in certain situations ( for istance, when your burst fails to kill your opponent and he still has invuln/stunbreakers up) and worse in other ones ( like when your opponent already used his stunbreakers/invulns).

Always ShS on Z axis, if not then use the 1200 range on the ability. You can’t shadowshot past 900 range. I don’t have an issue with haste thieves unless I have no ShS… and then it’s G_G no matter what they use.

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

narcarsis.5791:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Narcarsis.5739

With the D/P Backstab build, how are you consistently getting into position without any sort of speed boost (Fleet shadow, SoS)? (As a side-note – the spec I run should also have an additional second of stealth thanks to MwS, but according to testing by another player on the boards, MwS is currently bugged and does not affect stealth gained by BP->HS)

I’m currently running D/P (25/15/30/0/0) with Devourers,SoS,Shadowstep and Basilisk. Good players tend to keep moving and dodging whenever I enter stealth; even with SoS, there are times where I have to decide quickly if I want to just let stealth drop or try for a front stab. Basically, what are you doing against players who know what to expect when you enter stealth?

For the backstab, patience and deception are your friends. Be patient with your burst and pressure them to use their defensive CDs (stun breaks, dodge rolls, etc). Once they’re gone burst them.

Positioning is something you’ll learn as time goes on. Think more vertically than horizontally. Get high ground and be patient, only go in for a kill when you can secure it.

P.S. I will not quit this game. And I’m always willing to answer questions – Through this post preferably.

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

Positioning comes with experience and learning to observe the other player. Backstab’s “back” range is pretty lenient…you could pretty much hit someone from the side and it’ll count as back…

What you need to do is learn not to approach the backstab combo from the front…even if you so much as dodge roll, rotate your camera a bit, then do the combo…you’re probably going to hit them from the side.

SoS does definitely help with positioning, but with experience and learning how to position yourself, you’re not going to need it.

Ok. Again, I get that. I’m not claiming to be perfect at it, but I understand the concept and generally try to position like that. Thank you for explaining, but that’s not my point.

For people who are moving at your speed or faster than you (which counts everyone not crippled/chilled when you aren’t running SoS/Fleet and dont have swiftness), and that know to move away from the position they saw you stealth at, how do you expect to ever get behind (or even in melee range) of that player? When I was running with Refuge over SoS (again, 25/15/30/0/0), people moving faster than base speed who knew how to play were generally a hard counter to BP→HS stealth entirely, because it was impossible for me to catch up with them (as long as they were moving generally away from me) without using shadowstep or steal. Switching to shortbow was generally the answer, but that’s not optimal in alot of situations. If they were close, there was the option of using HS without a target, so you shot past them and got a chance for the BS when they moved past you, but that’s not a perfect solution either.

I’d love to run Refuge over SoS in my build, I’m just wondering if there’s something I’m missing.

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

narcarsis.5791:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Narcarsis.5739

With the D/P Backstab build, how are you consistently getting into position without any sort of speed boost (Fleet shadow, SoS)? (As a side-note – the spec I run should also have an additional second of stealth thanks to MwS, but according to testing by another player on the boards, MwS is currently bugged and does not affect stealth gained by BP->HS)

I’m currently running D/P (25/15/30/0/0) with Devourers,SoS,Shadowstep and Basilisk. Good players tend to keep moving and dodging whenever I enter stealth; even with SoS, there are times where I have to decide quickly if I want to just let stealth drop or try for a front stab. Basically, what are you doing against players who know what to expect when you enter stealth?

For the backstab, patience and deception are your friends. Be patient with your burst and pressure them to use their defensive CDs (stun breaks, dodge rolls, etc). Once they’re gone burst them.

Positioning is something you’ll learn as time goes on. Think more vertically than horizontally. Get high ground and be patient, only go in for a kill when you can secure it.

P.S. I will not quit this game. And I’m always willing to answer questions – Through this post preferably.

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

Positioning comes with experience and learning to observe the other player. Backstab’s “back” range is pretty lenient…you could pretty much hit someone from the side and it’ll count as back…

What you need to do is learn not to approach the backstab combo from the front…even if you so much as dodge roll, rotate your camera a bit, then do the combo…you’re probably going to hit them from the side.

SoS does definitely help with positioning, but with experience and learning how to position yourself, you’re not going to need it.

Ok. Again, I get that. I’m not claiming to be perfect at it, but I understand the concept and generally try to position like that. Thank you for explaining, but that’s not my point.

For people who are moving at your speed or faster than you (which counts everyone not crippled/chilled when you aren’t running SoS/Fleet and dont have swiftness), and that know to move away from the position they saw you stealth at, how do you expect to ever get behind (or even in melee range) of that player? When I was running with Refuge over SoS (again, 25/15/30/0/0), people moving faster than base speed who knew how to play were generally a hard counter to BP->HS stealth entirely, because it was impossible for me to catch up with them (as long as they were moving generally away from me) without using shadowstep or steal. Switching to shortbow was generally the answer, but that’s not optimal in alot of situations. If they were close, there was the option of using HS without a target, so you shot past them and got a chance for the BS when they moved past you, but that’s not a perfect solution either.

I’d love to run Refuge over SoS in my build, I’m just wondering if there’s something I’m missing.

Hey, I have an answer but I’ll let caed answer this, because I feel like I’m hijacking his thread (sorry caed!)

But just 1 more note…if you’re not using refuge in your bar, you’re missing out a lot. It sucks to be pigeonholed, but there is no denying that shadowstep + refuge is pretty much 100% necessary in tpvp.

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

@caed & amaterasu

The issue with SS is that there’re tons of terrain impairments that usually you won’t get the full range , unless you’re in open areas.

Sometimes you need to turn your camera AND use shadowstep in order to get the full range, because you’re in tiny places in the first place.

Moreover, not every class is a thief. Sometime they can’t get away from you ( altough they used a stunbreaker) and it that case, the 100% dps increase from haste is wonderful ( against necros, rangers, balanced stance warriors, bunker guardians and eles AFTER mistform, for example).

Haste and sin signet are simply different.

Sin signet is better to have your steal-stab dealing more damage, but haste is better in tons of other situations ( i usally haste stomp after using BPS anyway, to avoid their down CC to hit in any case).

I indeed understimated sin signet, and this conversation helped me to re-evaluate it, but, as i said before, it’s a matter of tastes.

Personally, i prefer haste.

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

narcarsis.5791:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Narcarsis.5739

With the D/P Backstab build, how are you consistently getting into position without any sort of speed boost (Fleet shadow, SoS)? (As a side-note – the spec I run should also have an additional second of stealth thanks to MwS, but according to testing by another player on the boards, MwS is currently bugged and does not affect stealth gained by BP->HS)

I’m currently running D/P (25/15/30/0/0) with Devourers,SoS,Shadowstep and Basilisk. Good players tend to keep moving and dodging whenever I enter stealth; even with SoS, there are times where I have to decide quickly if I want to just let stealth drop or try for a front stab. Basically, what are you doing against players who know what to expect when you enter stealth?

For the backstab, patience and deception are your friends. Be patient with your burst and pressure them to use their defensive CDs (stun breaks, dodge rolls, etc). Once they’re gone burst them.

Positioning is something you’ll learn as time goes on. Think more vertically than horizontally. Get high ground and be patient, only go in for a kill when you can secure it.

P.S. I will not quit this game. And I’m always willing to answer questions – Through this post preferably.

I get all that. My point is, alot of builds are based around high endurance regen, or high mobility… Some people even use their 25% Movement signets. Mobility and endurance are very important in this game, and most classes that have access to high mobility/endurance regen tend to take it, and they’re generally not based on CD’s (and when they are, they’re generally very short CD’s). I Don’t see how a spec without some sort of movement speed buff (SoS, Fleet shadow) can reliably position backstabs against players running those types of specs who understand how a thief works.

Positioning comes with experience and learning to observe the other player. Backstab’s “back” range is pretty lenient…you could pretty much hit someone from the side and it’ll count as back…

What you need to do is learn not to approach the backstab combo from the front…even if you so much as dodge roll, rotate your camera a bit, then do the combo…you’re probably going to hit them from the side.

SoS does definitely help with positioning, but with experience and learning how to position yourself, you’re not going to need it.

Ok. Again, I get that. I’m not claiming to be perfect at it, but I understand the concept and generally try to position like that. Thank you for explaining, but that’s not my point.

For people who are moving at your speed or faster than you (which counts everyone not crippled/chilled when you aren’t running SoS/Fleet and dont have swiftness), and that know to move away from the position they saw you stealth at, how do you expect to ever get behind (or even in melee range) of that player? When I was running with Refuge over SoS (again, 25/15/30/0/0), people moving faster than base speed who knew how to play were generally a hard counter to BP->HS stealth entirely, because it was impossible for me to catch up with them (as long as they were moving generally away from me) without using shadowstep or steal. Switching to shortbow was generally the answer, but that’s not optimal in alot of situations. If they were close, there was the option of using HS without a target, so you shot past them and got a chance for the BS when they moved past you, but that’s not a perfect solution either.

I’d love to run Refuge over SoS in my build, I’m just wondering if there’s something I’m missing.

Not sure what to say, the issue lies in what I’ve said before. Positioning, patience, and ability use. You shouldn’t only be backstabbing people, you do it when you know you can land it. Otherwise you’re dumping a lot of initiative into stealth for nothing. The reason D/P is better than D/D is partly because every skill on your weapon set [1-5] is useful, you just need to figure out what to use in each situation you encounter. Don’t rely on backstab as consistent damage because you won’t be able to hit every one, use it for spike when you know it will land (again, the patience/positioning). Thrill of the Crime will give you the necessary swiftness to ensure your backstabs, as well as adding to your burst with Fury (not to mention Mug). Don’t confine yourself to using certain abilities because they do “more damage” on the tooltip (not accusing you of this, however it sounds like you’re not using other abilities).

Anyway, overall I haven’t experienced an issue with landing backstab because of swiftness.

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

nothing stops you to use Shadowshot again after he dodges.

If you did everything right, you should have 8+ ini after the burst, assuming you didn’t do it after HoS or shadow refuge ( in that case, you have full ini).

Anyway, i’m curious about builds for spirit watch.

I’ve found S/P venom share to have more viability in there. Still somehow worse than having another ele or ranger, but somehow viable.

Mrbig.8019:

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

nothing stops you to use Shadowshot again after he dodges.

If you did everything right, you should have 8+ ini after the burst, assuming you didn’t do it after HoS or shadow refuge ( in that case, you have full ini).

Anyway, i’m curious about builds for spirit watch.

I’ve found S/P venom share to have more viability in there. Still somehow worse than having another ele or ranger, but somehow viable.

I found the opposite true, spirit watch is largely based on capping points. I rarely find myself with my teammates as priority is back capping.
Also (again), ShS is 1200 range, Shadow Shot is 900. You won’t kill someone who doesn’t biff their ShS.

Mrbig.8019:

@caed & amaterasu

The issue with SS is that there’re tons of terrain impairments that usually you won’t get the full range , unless you’re in open areas.

Sometimes you need to turn your camera AND use shadowstep in order to get the full range, because you’re in tiny places in the first place.

Moreover, not every class is a thief. Sometime they can’t get away from you ( altough they used a stunbreaker) and it that case, the 100% dps increase from haste is wonderful ( against necros, rangers, balanced stance warriors, bunker guardians and eles AFTER mistform, for example).

Haste and sin signet are simply different.

Sin signet is better to have your steal-stab dealing more damage, but haste is better in tons of other situations ( i usally haste stomp after using BPS anyway, to avoid their down CC to hit in any case).

I indeed understimated sin signet, and this conversation helped me to re-evaluate it, but, as i said before, it’s a matter of tastes.

Personally, i prefer haste.

You’re right, not every class is a thief, but every class has a cc that could eat up the whole haste combo following the backstab (ele-mist form, mes – distortion, war – endure pain/shield stance, guard – renewed focus, etc, etc, etc) Even necros can just deathshroud and fear you since you’re not going to have stability. Then what? No dodges, and if you don’t have refuge or your stealth gets interrupted, you’re dead.

That’s why, it’s important to SB them or pressure them and try to make them blow invuln. Also note that people are paranoid of backstabs…if you come out of stealth with a regular backstab, they might just take the bait and blow their invuln right away…leaving you with your steal untouched for the true combo.

It just comes down to preference, but I personally think draining all your endurance for 4s only to have them slowly regen isn’t smart unless you want to run and refuge everytime you miss your big combo…dodges are so important. The only way to counter this is if you use sig of agility as well and use that right after haste, but that’s not smart neither because as I said, shadowstep + refuge is pretty much a must.

Narcarsis.5739:

Mrbig.8019:

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

nothing stops you to use Shadowshot again after he dodges.

If you did everything right, you should have 8+ ini after the burst, assuming you didn’t do it after HoS or shadow refuge ( in that case, you have full ini).

Anyway, i’m curious about builds for spirit watch.

I’ve found S/P venom share to have more viability in there. Still somehow worse than having another ele or ranger, but somehow viable.

I found the opposite true, spirit watch is largely based on capping points. I rarely find myself with my teammates as priority is back capping.
Also (again), ShS is 1200 range, Shadow Shot is 900. You won’t kill someone who doesn’t biff their ShS.

repost ( i’ve written it up in the comment above)

-The issue with SS is that there’re tons of terrain impairments that usually you won’t get the full range , unless you’re in open areas.
Sometimes you need to turn your camera AND use shadowstep in order to get the full range, because you’re in tiny places in the first place.-

An example would be on khylo, when you’re on the windows spamming with the shortbow and the enemy thief caught you EXACTLY after you were turning the camera behind ( it usually screws up, and using shadowstep is a mess).

The same on trebuchet.

There are tons of situations like this, and in these situations is pretty hard to pull off a full 1200 range shadowstep.

The pain grows since a hastened combo requires even more reflexes, and in these situations maybe you won’t be able to both avoid the burst and escape at 1200 range.

And, as i said before, not every class is a thief.

A ranger using lightining reflexes will be caught by your SS, same for a mesmer using blink or phase retreat or an ele using lightning flash.

Mrbig.8019:

Narcarsis.5739:

Mrbig.8019:

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

nothing stops you to use Shadowshot again after he dodges.

If you did everything right, you should have 8+ ini after the burst, assuming you didn’t do it after HoS or shadow refuge ( in that case, you have full ini).

Anyway, i’m curious about builds for spirit watch.

I’ve found S/P venom share to have more viability in there. Still somehow worse than having another ele or ranger, but somehow viable.

I found the opposite true, spirit watch is largely based on capping points. I rarely find myself with my teammates as priority is back capping.
Also (again), ShS is 1200 range, Shadow Shot is 900. You won’t kill someone who doesn’t biff their ShS.

repost ( i’ve written it up in the comment above)

-The issue with SS is that there’re tons of terrain impairments that usually you won’t get the full range , unless you’re in open areas.
Sometimes you need to turn your camera AND use shadowstep in order to get the full range, because you’re in tiny places in the first place.-

An example would be on khylo, when you’re on the windows spamming with the shortbow and the enemy thief caught you EXACTLY after you were turning the camera behind ( it usually screws up, and using shadowstep is a mess).

The same on trebuchet.

There are tons of situations like this, and in these situations is pretty hard to pull off a full 1200 range shadowstep.

The pain grows since a hastened combo requires even more reflexes, and in these situations maybe you won’t be able to both avoid the burst and escape at 1200 range.

And, as i said before, not every class is a thief.

A ranger using lightining reflexes will be caught by your SS, same for a mesmer using blink or phase retreat or an ele using lightning flash.

This all comes down to positioning. Don’t get caught in kitten positions.

Amaterasu.6280:

Mrbig.8019:

@caed & amaterasu

The issue with SS is that there’re tons of terrain impairments that usually you won’t get the full range , unless you’re in open areas.

Sometimes you need to turn your camera AND use shadowstep in order to get the full range, because you’re in tiny places in the first place.

Moreover, not every class is a thief. Sometime they can’t get away from you ( altough they used a stunbreaker) and it that case, the 100% dps increase from haste is wonderful ( against necros, rangers, balanced stance warriors, bunker guardians and eles AFTER mistform, for example).

Haste and sin signet are simply different.

Sin signet is better to have your steal-stab dealing more damage, but haste is better in tons of other situations ( i usally haste stomp after using BPS anyway, to avoid their down CC to hit in any case).

I indeed understimated sin signet, and this conversation helped me to re-evaluate it, but, as i said before, it’s a matter of tastes.

Personally, i prefer haste.

You’re right, not every class is a thief, but every class has a cc that could eat up the whole haste combo following the backstab (ele-mist form, mes – distortion, war – endure pain/shield stance, guard – renewed focus, etc, etc, etc) Even necros can just deathshroud and fear you since you’re not going to have stability. Then what? No dodges, and if you don’t have refuge or your stealth gets interrupted, you’re dead.

That’s why, it’s important to SB them or pressure them and try to make them blow invuln. Also note that people are paranoid of backstabs…if you come out of stealth with a regular backstab, they might just take the bait and blow their invuln right away…leaving you with your steal untouched for the true combo.

It just comes down to preference, but I personally think draining all your endurance for 4s only to have them slowly regen isn’t smart unless you want to run and refuge everytime you miss your big combo…dodges are so important. The only way to counter this is if you use sig of agility as well and use that right after haste, but that’s not smart neither because as I said, shadowstep + refuge is pretty much a must.

That goes up with your skillz

A good thief won’t let the burst to be eaten by an invuln. If it happens, you screwed up, be it with sin signet or with haste, and you should leave immediately.

If my burst fails , and i need to stay melee, i use bps and try to tank as much as i can, swapping to shortbow when i need to go out, or simply using SS to put up enough distance and bait their burst simply to shadow retreat back ( if they don’t, i simply run away and gg).

Once you get used to haste, your playstyle changes according to it.

As i said, it’s simply different.

Narcarsis.5739:

Mrbig.8019:

Narcarsis.5739:

Mrbig.8019:

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

If a thief shadowsteps away, a single shadowshot will kill him, as long as the burst crit, ( no point in using HS) unless he shadowsteps in Z axis ( in that case, GG you uberrobot).

Flaw is after shadowstep he can dodge, preventing the shot from warping, HiS and if you try to follow with your SS, he’s free to generally warp back before you finish pursuit.
There is also the delay before the actual hit of Shadowshot, which you can warp inbetween and since HiS doesn’t get canceled, it isn’t untypical for the burst to fail to conjure a kill.

You don’t have any changes you make for Spirit Watch Caed or you just decided to roll the exact same?

nothing stops you to use Shadowshot again after he dodges.

If you did everything right, you should have 8+ ini after the burst, assuming you didn’t do it after HoS or shadow refuge ( in that case, you have full ini).

Anyway, i’m curious about builds for spirit watch.

I’ve found S/P venom share to have more viability in there. Still somehow worse than having another ele or ranger, but somehow viable.

I found the opposite true, spirit watch is largely based on capping points. I rarely find myself with my teammates as priority is back capping.
Also (again), ShS is 1200 range, Shadow Shot is 900. You won’t kill someone who doesn’t biff their ShS.

repost ( i’ve written it up in the comment above)

-The issue with SS is that there’re tons of terrain impairments that usually you won’t get the full range , unless you’re in open areas.
Sometimes you need to turn your camera AND use shadowstep in order to get the full range, because you’re in tiny places in the first place.-

An example would be on khylo, when you’re on the windows spamming with the shortbow and the enemy thief caught you EXACTLY after you were turning the camera behind ( it usually screws up, and using shadowstep is a mess).

The same on trebuchet.

There are tons of situations like this, and in these situations is pretty hard to pull off a full 1200 range shadowstep.

The pain grows since a hastened combo requires even more reflexes, and in these situations maybe you won’t be able to both avoid the burst and escape at 1200 range.

And, as i said before, not every class is a thief.

A ranger using lightining reflexes will be caught by your SS, same for a mesmer using blink or phase retreat or an ele using lightning flash.

This all comes down to positioning. Don’t get caught in kitten positions.

That’s true, but it happens

Don’t say it doesn’t, i used to watch your streams and it also happened to you sometimes, altough your positioning is usually very good ( i remember that video where that war killed both you and your teammate who came to ress you on the windows on khylo, with you screaming OMG THAT WAR PWNS, be careful, and then he died too to him lol).

All i want to say is that there’re situations when your positioning isn’t 100% accurate, and you’re putting yourself at risk. In these situations, you’re not sure to be able to pull a full 1200 range shadowstep, and a shadowshot will be able to hit you and finish you off.

And anyway, it works 100 % of the times with other classes, since their teleports are all 900 range aside necro wurm.

Main point being if you haste your chance for survival against good players drops dramatically, even with good positioning – I don’t see any justification for the trade off in the grander scheme of things. Also there are times where you can afford to give up positioning in order to pick up kills (when you have people to pick you up when you go down).

I might also add I used to have incredibly bad positioning compared to now. It only improved (consistently) about a month ago.

Narcarsis.5739:

Main point being if you haste your chance for survival against good players drops dramatically, even with good positioning – I don’t see any justification for the trade off in the grander scheme of things. Also there are times where you can afford to give up positioning in order to pick up kills (when you have people to pick you up when you go down).

I might also add I used to have incredibly bad positioning compared to now. It only improved (consistently) about a month ago.

The trade off is more damage.

The hastened combo allows you to use a HS in the same time span of a non-hastened steal stab ( or a shadowshot, if your opponent teleports away).

With full crits, it’s a 20 k + damage combo, a lot more than a sin signet empowered steal-stab.

If your opponent can’t escape, you can haste spam 1 for huge damage, too.

You can haste ress and haste stomp.

It still is quickness on demand, it can come in handy in various situations, as you also said, not only for damage.

sin signet is damage only.

The trade off exists, it only matters if it is worthy or not.

I believe it’s worthy, but i will give sin signet another chance.

Maybe i’ll take my words back, who knows

hey caed its kurayamikara or kura tree just want to say im so happy you are putting up a guide to get some new thieves at least on the right track ! keep it up id love to see more thieves up near the top.

Mrbig.8019:

The trade off is more damage.

The hastened combo allows you to use a HS in the same time span of a non-hastened steal stab ( or a shadowshot, if your opponent teleports away).

With full crits, it’s a 20 k + damage combo, a lot more than a sin signet empowered steal-stab.

If your opponent can’t escape, you can haste spam 1 for huge damage, too.

You can haste ress and haste stomp.

It still is quickness on demand, it can come in handy in various situations, as you also said, not only for damage.

sin signet is damage only.

The trade off exists, it only matters if it is worthy or not.

I believe it’s worthy, but i will give sin signet another chance.

Maybe i’ll take my words back, who knows

Steal stab is instant, saying anything more than steal/stab (even hasted) is faster than steal/stab alone is a lie. Good players will get their CDs off before you haste them down. The timing on a hasted heartseeker is 3/8th of a second – longer than the time needed for me to ShS or others to use defensives. There are things you can do with Haste that you can’t do with Sin Sig (Res, Stomp, Cap buffs, etc). However doing any of those things as a thief, with no endurance, is a death wish.

no SD love at all? im very surprised to hear most top thieves dont even try it

inf stike gives you the best mobility in game, blinking in an out, combing with stealth from cnd makes seriously hard to track .i use 10/30/30/0/0 with citadel runes x5, divinity x1..means when i stealth i heal and cleanse conditions, this boosts ur survival 10 fold.

damage is insane, fs hits for almost as much as backstab.. and sword auto is extremely potent. all while ur target is dazed.

dont like the way things are going or get stunned, blink out with inf strike. like SP, its the perfect counter to other thieves, just make sure shadow return is always up

not saying its a better build to yours, but i think youll b surprised.

bomber.1540:

no SD love at all? im very surprised to hear most top thieves dont even try it

inf stike gives you the best mobility in game, blinking in an out, combing with stealth from cnd makes seriously hard to track .i use 10/30/30/0/0 with citadel runes x5, divinity x1..means when i stealth i heal and cleanse conditions, this boosts ur survival 10 fold.

damage is insane, fs hits for almost as much as backstab.. and sword auto is extremely potent. all while ur target is dazed.

dont like the way things are going or get stunned, blink out with inf strike. like SP, its the perfect counter to other thieves, just make sure shadow return is always up

not saying its a better build to yours, but i think youll b surprised.

I know very well that it’s a strong build, however I kill other thieves with my spec more than they kill me. In that aspect my build does more for my team because I can also burst down other targets. S/D is sustain damage very low burst and in a team fight with stability almost absolutely useless.

Dear Narcarsis,

I don’t know if it’s me, but your links about your specializations on your guide I can’t access. The links you posted at the beginning of this thread.

Skumbag.8465:

Dear Narcarsis,

I don’t know if it’s me, but your links about your specializations on your guide I can’t access. The links you posted at the beginning of this thread.

Copy/Paste instead of clicking. They will work.

Oh okay my bad kitten img src="/include/images/smilies/sad.png" />

Which one do you prefer to use out of them all just d/d for burst and helping with team objectives?

Skumbag.8465:

Which one do you prefer to use out of them all just d/d for burst and helping with team objectives?

I play D/P burst. It’s what I enjoy playing and what I’ve refined.
D/D Burst is inferior, D/D bleeds aren’t viable in competitive play, and Venom Share require an extremely coordinated team to use effectively. S/D is hard countered by stability (if it was easier to land the boon strip on S/D 3 then that wouldn’t be as true but it hardly hits). P/D bleed is worse than D/D bleed. S/P burst is heavily countered by retaliation. P/P has no mobility, coupled with haste you have no defense and are a sitting duck.

Oh okay thank you.

Caed, how have your builds changed since the recent patch hit Mug and Shortbow?

I really enjoy playing your D/P build, but what are you thoughts on the S/D changes?

Congrats on your Rank #1 NA, btw.

Your new build is impressive, brah.

Stop blowing your own trumpet and stick this in the Thief forum where it belongs please…

Enough hero worship already.

fishybill.6908:

Stop blowing your own trumpet and stick this in the Thief forum where it belongs please…

Enough hero worship already.

what’s your point

this is a good tPvP thief guide.

tPvP

PvP

*looks up at the subforum, then down, then up again, i’m on a horse *

Needs tankier builds.

Like this good ol’ chap. Always worked well for me.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUmiP3eS6E95EB3Dna0m6fAs9MuqVB-TgAg0CnIwRhjDHDOScs4A

What are the combos you use on the d/p thief?