Guild Wars 2

No Man.4180:

meow one twenty.4376:

No Man.4180:

no not all mobile builds/classes have blink or teleport.

Well, Mesmers/Eles/Thieves have blinks. Rangers/Warriors/Engineers have leaps that ignore Chill, so I didn’t include them. Guardians aren’t mobile so they don’t count. Oh, and Revs are Revs.

leaps “ignore” chill? maybe help dodge the skill but no they don’t just ignore any condi.
im not too sure on teleports though from what i read Mesmer teleports do not remove conditions, nor does the thiefs teleport removes conditions nor too the ele teleport.
i mean they might also help dodge/evade the chill skill but they dont ignore any condi.

Yes, leaps ignore chill and cripple. All movement skills ignore those.

No Man.4180:

meow one twenty.4376:

No Man.4180:

no not all mobile builds/classes have blink or teleport.

Well, Mesmers/Eles/Thieves have blinks. Rangers/Warriors/Engineers have leaps that ignore Chill, so I didn’t include them. Guardians aren’t mobile so they don’t count. Oh, and Revs are Revs.

leaps “ignore” chill? maybe help dodge the skill but no they don’t just ignore any condi.
im not too sure on teleports though from what i read Mesmer teleports do not remove conditions, nor does the thiefs teleport removes conditions nor too the ele teleport.
i mean they might also help dodge/evade the chill skill but they dont ignore any condi.

He is referring to a semi recent change where movement skills aren’t effected by chill.

meow one twenty.4376:

I think it presents a problem when in a 20 second fight, Chill is the largest contributor to death in just damage (at a rate of 900 damage/second), that doesn’t even include how much of an impact it would have in a longer fight with the cooldown increase and movement impairment… you know, the previous primary reason for applying Chill.

Well, it’s a grandmaster on a condition with lots of counters, so it has to be strong. Another thing that has to be calculated is that the 900 damage a second is not all deathly chill only. Some of it is might, some of it is vulenrability and some of it is target the weak and maybe some other condition boosters (like sigil of bursting). So yeah if you invest that amount in it you should get some return. On its own in a rabid with nightmare runes it does only 615 damage/second.

Tim.6450:

meow one twenty.4376:

I think it presents a problem when in a 20 second fight, Chill is the largest contributor to death in just damage (at a rate of 900 damage/second), that doesn’t even include how much of an impact it would have in a longer fight with the cooldown increase and movement impairment… you know, the previous primary reason for applying Chill.

Well, it’s a grandmaster on a condition with lots of counters, so it has to be strong. Another thing that has to be calculated is that the 900 damage a second is not all deathly chill only. Some of it is might, some of it is vulenrability and some of it is target the weak and maybe some other condition boosters (like sigil of bursting). So yeah if you invest that amount in it you should get some return. On its own in a rabid with nightmare runes it does only 615 damage/second.

First, as proven by many Grandmasters, a Granmaster doesn’t have to be strong. I think it should be, but it shouldn’t be a soft CC, cooldown increase, and strongest damage dealer all wrapped up in one.

Second, every condition and skill that does damage factors in Might, Vuln, and gear. What kind of a point are you trying to make?

meow one twenty.4376:

Tim.6450:

meow one twenty.4376:

I think it presents a problem when in a 20 second fight, Chill is the largest contributor to death in just damage (at a rate of 900 damage/second), that doesn’t even include how much of an impact it would have in a longer fight with the cooldown increase and movement impairment… you know, the previous primary reason for applying Chill.

Well, it’s a grandmaster on a condition with lots of counters, so it has to be strong. Another thing that has to be calculated is that the 900 damage a second is not all deathly chill only. Some of it is might, some of it is vulenrability and some of it is target the weak and maybe some other condition boosters (like sigil of bursting). So yeah if you invest that amount in it you should get some return. On its own in a rabid with nightmare runes it does only 615 damage/second.

First, as proven by many Grandmasters, a Granmaster doesn’t have to be strong. I think it should be, but it shouldn’t be a soft CC, cooldown increase, and strongest damage dealer all wrapped up in one.

Second, every condition and skill that does damage factors in Might, Vuln, and gear. What kind of a point are you trying to make?

Out of curiosity, how often is Chill the most damage with a Chillmancer? What % of the overall damage is it? It sort of seems like it being the “strongest damage dealer” is being taken as an objective fact, but it was sort of just anecdotally thrown into the mix. One of the main benefits that it has is that once Chill is on, it’s ticking nicely, as opposed to Burn and Bleed which need to build a few stacks to start rolling. However, I’d argue with all of the cleansing that can and does happen, a condi class like Chillmancer having access to a pressuring condition that can be applied while they build back up is one of the few ways to keep condi viable, outside of condi burst builds. Especially since building those stacks back up as a Necromancer can take some time.

Also, if the Chillmancer has his/her might stripped, odds are that chill is going to start ticking for much less. Like with any build, if you let the class get high stacks of might, the fight is going to become hard.

The idea that chill shouldn’t do damage also feels sort of arbitrary to me. It seems like a nice bridge for a condi spec to feel viable against cleansing, while also not allowing the Necro to spam up all of their Chill at once to stack 3600 damage/tick or anything crazy. It’s just steady, attrition-based play.

If they were to nerf the damage, what do you think would be an appropriate amount to nerf it by? The amount of damage it does against other players is going to depend a lot on cleanse timings and build. It just seems to me like there’s so much counter for chill in the game, if t’s that big of an issue that it’s destroying the meta, why not build against it? Is it bad if the meta has to be concerned about a chill-based condi spec?

Cogbyrn.7283:

meow one twenty.4376:

Tim.6450:

meow one twenty.4376:

I think it presents a problem when in a 20 second fight, Chill is the largest contributor to death in just damage (at a rate of 900 damage/second), that doesn’t even include how much of an impact it would have in a longer fight with the cooldown increase and movement impairment… you know, the previous primary reason for applying Chill.

Well, it’s a grandmaster on a condition with lots of counters, so it has to be strong. Another thing that has to be calculated is that the 900 damage a second is not all deathly chill only. Some of it is might, some of it is vulenrability and some of it is target the weak and maybe some other condition boosters (like sigil of bursting). So yeah if you invest that amount in it you should get some return. On its own in a rabid with nightmare runes it does only 615 damage/second.

First, as proven by many Grandmasters, a Granmaster doesn’t have to be strong. I think it should be, but it shouldn’t be a soft CC, cooldown increase, and strongest damage dealer all wrapped up in one.

Second, every condition and skill that does damage factors in Might, Vuln, and gear. What kind of a point are you trying to make?

Out of curiosity, how often is Chill the most damage with a Chillmancer? What % of the overall damage is it? It sort of seems like it being the “strongest damage dealer” is being taken as an objective fact, but it was sort of just anecdotally thrown into the mix. One of the main benefits that it has is that once Chill is on, it’s ticking nicely, as opposed to Burn and Bleed which need to build a few stacks to start rolling. However, I’d argue with all of the cleansing that can and does happen, a condi class like Chillmancer having access to a pressuring condition that can be applied while they build back up is one of the few ways to keep condi viable, outside of condi burst builds. Especially since building those stacks back up as a Necromancer can take some time.

Also, if the Chillmancer has his/her might stripped, odds are that chill is going to start ticking for much less. Like with any build, if you let the class get high stacks of might, the fight is going to become hard.

The idea that chill shouldn’t do damage also feels sort of arbitrary to me. It seems like a nice bridge for a condi spec to feel viable against cleansing, while also not allowing the Necro to spam up all of their Chill at once to stack 3600 damage/tick or anything crazy. It’s just steady, attrition-based play.

If they were to nerf the damage, what do you think would be an appropriate amount to nerf it by? The amount of damage it does against other players is going to depend a lot on cleanse timings and build. It just seems to me like there’s so much counter for chill in the game, if t’s that big of an issue that it’s destroying the meta, why not build against it? Is it bad if the meta has to be concerned about a chill-based condi spec?

How often is Chilled the main source of damage on a Chillmancer? Everytime. Typically by a significant margin. The screenshot was a short fight with multiple Reapers and the DD, and I use Relentless Pursuit and Hoelbrak. The problem is Chilled isn’t functioning as an attrition like it did before the buff, the damage was manageable and only really hurt when the person was close to losing. That was much more befitting.

Yes, Might makes things do more damage, thank you for pointing that out. I especially like Corrupting Might and Stability, but has less of an impact on the overall damage Chill will put out because of its continuous nature on the Reaper.

Meta? There isn’t even a real meta yet, it’s all a bunch of people complaining about DHs.

Revert Chill damage back to the way it was. Overall damage was around the same with a bigger snowball effect and it regains the attrition it was designed with.

meow one twenty.4376:

First, as proven by many Grandmasters, a Granmaster doesn’t have to be strong.

How many of these not so strong grandmasters are actually taken over their strong counterpart?

meow one twenty.4376:

I think it should be, but it shouldn’t be a soft CC, cooldown increase, and strongest damage dealer all wrapped up in one.

Well first, I think strongest damage dealer is subjective . It really depends on context, not only does it rely on your own build it also relies on the build of your foe.for example, you could fight a stealth thief with shadows embrace and it could easily be the strongest or you could fight a daredevil with unhindered combatant and it could be the weakest, so let’s rephrase that to a strong damage dealer.

In that case you could say that deathly chill is not something new we have a strong damage skills which also apply chill. They just use power damage instead of condition damage and therefor fall easier under the radar due the nature of the combat log.

meow one twenty.4376:

Second, every condition and skill that does damage factors in Might, Vuln, and gear. What kind of a point are you trying to make?

The thing is that you place 900 damage/second without any context gives it little meaning. it could be without stats or with 25 vuln,might,… .

meow one twenty.4376:

Cogbyrn.7283:

meow one twenty.4376:

Tim.6450:

meow one twenty.4376:

I think it presents a problem when in a 20 second fight, Chill is the largest contributor to death in just damage (at a rate of 900 damage/second), that doesn’t even include how much of an impact it would have in a longer fight with the cooldown increase and movement impairment… you know, the previous primary reason for applying Chill.

Well, it’s a grandmaster on a condition with lots of counters, so it has to be strong. Another thing that has to be calculated is that the 900 damage a second is not all deathly chill only. Some of it is might, some of it is vulenrability and some of it is target the weak and maybe some other condition boosters (like sigil of bursting). So yeah if you invest that amount in it you should get some return. On its own in a rabid with nightmare runes it does only 615 damage/second.

First, as proven by many Grandmasters, a Granmaster doesn’t have to be strong. I think it should be, but it shouldn’t be a soft CC, cooldown increase, and strongest damage dealer all wrapped up in one.

Second, every condition and skill that does damage factors in Might, Vuln, and gear. What kind of a point are you trying to make?

Out of curiosity, how often is Chill the most damage with a Chillmancer? What % of the overall damage is it? It sort of seems like it being the “strongest damage dealer” is being taken as an objective fact, but it was sort of just anecdotally thrown into the mix. One of the main benefits that it has is that once Chill is on, it’s ticking nicely, as opposed to Burn and Bleed which need to build a few stacks to start rolling. However, I’d argue with all of the cleansing that can and does happen, a condi class like Chillmancer having access to a pressuring condition that can be applied while they build back up is one of the few ways to keep condi viable, outside of condi burst builds. Especially since building those stacks back up as a Necromancer can take some time.

Also, if the Chillmancer has his/her might stripped, odds are that chill is going to start ticking for much less. Like with any build, if you let the class get high stacks of might, the fight is going to become hard.

The idea that chill shouldn’t do damage also feels sort of arbitrary to me. It seems like a nice bridge for a condi spec to feel viable against cleansing, while also not allowing the Necro to spam up all of their Chill at once to stack 3600 damage/tick or anything crazy. It’s just steady, attrition-based play.

If they were to nerf the damage, what do you think would be an appropriate amount to nerf it by? The amount of damage it does against other players is going to depend a lot on cleanse timings and build. It just seems to me like there’s so much counter for chill in the game, if t’s that big of an issue that it’s destroying the meta, why not build against it? Is it bad if the meta has to be concerned about a chill-based condi spec?

How often is Chilled the main source of damage on a Chillmancer? Everytime. Typically by a significant margin. The screenshot was a short fight with multiple Reapers and the DD, and I use Relentless Pursuit and Hoelbrak. The problem is Chilled isn’t functioning as an attrition like it did before the buff, the damage was manageable and only really hurt when the person was close to losing. That was much more befitting.

Yes, Might makes things do more damage, thank you for pointing that out. I especially like Corrupting Might and Stability, but has less of an impact on the overall damage Chill will put out because of its continuous nature on the Reaper.

Meta? There isn’t even a real meta yet, it’s all a bunch of people complaining about DHs.

Revert Chill damage back to the way it was. Overall damage was around the same with a bigger snowball effect and it regains the attrition it was designed with.

You know that screen shot shows a dps around 560 damage / second and you want it to be lower then that? Also revert chill damage to the previous version does lower the damage significantly. Even if you reimplemented the 50% boost and balanced the damage to make it do equal damage overall, it would actually lower it’s attrition and make it more burst.

NeXeD.3042:

No Man.4180:

meow one twenty.4376:

No Man.4180:

no not all mobile builds/classes have blink or teleport.

Well, Mesmers/Eles/Thieves have blinks. Rangers/Warriors/Engineers have leaps that ignore Chill, so I didn’t include them. Guardians aren’t mobile so they don’t count. Oh, and Revs are Revs.

leaps “ignore” chill? maybe help dodge the skill but no they don’t just ignore any condi.
im not too sure on teleports though from what i read Mesmer teleports do not remove conditions, nor does the thiefs teleport removes conditions nor too the ele teleport.
i mean they might also help dodge/evade the chill skill but they dont ignore any condi.

He is referring to a semi recent change where movement skills aren’t effected by chill.

I think throughout the thread it’s been well established that No Man has no idea what he’s talking about.

meow one twenty.4376:

How often is Chilled the main source of damage on a Chillmancer? Everytime. Typically by a significant margin. The screenshot was a short fight with multiple Reapers and the DD, and I use Relentless Pursuit and Hoelbrak. The problem is Chilled isn’t functioning as an attrition like it did before the buff, the damage was manageable and only really hurt when the person was close to losing. That was much more befitting.

Yes, Might makes things do more damage, thank you for pointing that out. I especially like Corrupting Might and Stability, but has less of an impact on the overall damage Chill will put out because of its continuous nature on the Reaper.

Meta? There isn’t even a real meta yet, it’s all a bunch of people complaining about DHs.

Revert Chill damage back to the way it was. Overall damage was around the same with a bigger snowball effect and it regains the attrition it was designed with.

That death breakdown strikes me as odd. First, as mentioned, Chill averaged 564 damage per tick. So over the course of 20 seconds, it did 10k damage. That’s attrition to me. It isn’t overly strong, but it’s consistent, and it adds up over time. You aren’t going to go burst someone down with your chill before they get any assistance. It’s a slow burn designed to make them feel the pressure.

Also, it says bleeding did 20 hits for 3000 damage. That’s 150 damage, on average, per tick. How does it add condition hits for condis that stack? I slapped a Carrion amulet on just now and put 2 stacks of bleeding on a golem, and it was ticking for 188. That means on average, this player you were fighting maintained fewer than 2 stacks of bleeding, and never applied torment or burning.

Also, the Thief hit you 3 times in what is at minimum, a 19 second fight.

It just sort of strikes me as odd, is all. And for a condition you can’t stack, 560 damage/sec doesn’t seem too bad to me.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, it says bleeding did 20 hits for 3000 damage. That’s 150 damage, on average, per tick. How does it add condition hits for condis that stack?

Combat slog shows the total ticks of a condition as a “hit,” not individual stacks.

So, regardless of how many stacks of bleeding there were, that breakdown shows 20 seconds of bleeding.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, it says bleeding did 20 hits for 3000 damage. That’s 150 damage, on average, per tick. How does it add condition hits for condis that stack?

Combat slog shows the total ticks of a condition as a “hit,” not individual stacks.

So, regardless of how many stacks of bleeding there were, that breakdown shows 20 seconds of bleeding.

Thanks, I thought that might be the case. And in that case, that feels like a very low amount of damage, if it’s averaging fewer than or roughly 2 stacks.

No Man.4180:

Deathly chill, bitter chill, toxic chill, chilling nova, shivers of dread, cold shoulder and chilling darkness all cause chill…. not sure why everyone is using strawman to misconstrue the slew of chill effects available to reaper.

Working as intended… Reaper couldn’t hit a parked car without it.

meow one twenty.4376:

-screenshot post-

You should have PrtScn button on the top right side of your keyboard.

Use it next time please.

And no, chill is fine as it is now.

Cogbyrn.7283:

meow one twenty.4376:

How often is Chilled the main source of damage on a Chillmancer? Everytime. Typically by a significant margin. The screenshot was a short fight with multiple Reapers and the DD, and I use Relentless Pursuit and Hoelbrak. The problem is Chilled isn’t functioning as an attrition like it did before the buff, the damage was manageable and only really hurt when the person was close to losing. That was much more befitting.

Yes, Might makes things do more damage, thank you for pointing that out. I especially like Corrupting Might and Stability, but has less of an impact on the overall damage Chill will put out because of its continuous nature on the Reaper.

Meta? There isn’t even a real meta yet, it’s all a bunch of people complaining about DHs.

Revert Chill damage back to the way it was. Overall damage was around the same with a bigger snowball effect and it regains the attrition it was designed with.

That death breakdown strikes me as odd. First, as mentioned, Chill averaged 564 damage per tick. So over the course of 20 seconds, it did 10k damage. That’s attrition to me. It isn’t overly strong, but it’s consistent, and it adds up over time. You aren’t going to go burst someone down with your chill before they get any assistance. It’s a slow burn designed to make them feel the pressure.

Also, it says bleeding did 20 hits for 3000 damage. That’s 150 damage, on average, per tick. How does it add condition hits for condis that stack? I slapped a Carrion amulet on just now and put 2 stacks of bleeding on a golem, and it was ticking for 188. That means on average, this player you were fighting maintained fewer than 2 stacks of bleeding, and never applied torment or burning.

Also, the Thief hit you 3 times in what is at minimum, a 19 second fight.

It just sort of strikes me as odd, is all. And for a condition you can’t stack, 560 damage/sec doesn’t seem too bad to me.

Attrition doesn’t happen in a 20 second fight. That’s a huge part of the problem, in both long and short fights Chilled is the largest damage dealer. Some may argue that attrition does happen because it is constantly there, but look at the Bleeding, that was constantly there as well.

All the “only 560 damage per tick” means is that they weren’t built around high Condi damage or that they didn’t have high stacks of Might or Vuln on me. Wasn’t “High stacks of Might and Vuln” one of your arguments before (you or Tim)? Here’s an example where your argument doesn’t even come up and you somehow think that makes my argument weaker? What about the “access to Chill durarion negation,” I have Relentless Pursuit and Hoelbrak. Condi clear? Proven that I can clear other Condi’s just fine by how low my Poison and Bleed is.

Why don’t you take a look at the uptime of Terror versus Chill to think about how much a non-stacking Condi should do. Obviously it should do more damage over the duration of a fight than Terror, but should it dominate the damage in 20 second fight?

And Tim, “strongest damage dealer” is not subjective. It’s an absolute claim, which is not something I do very often.

Tao, no and no. It isn’t an obviously problem thanks to DH’s and Scrappers, but it is a problem.

meow one twenty.4376:

Attrition doesn’t happen in a 20 second fight. That’s a huge part of the problem, in both long and short fights Chilled is the largest damage dealer. Some may argue that attrition does happen because it is constantly there, but look at the Bleeding, that was constantly there as well.

All the “only 560 damage per tick” means is that they weren’t built around high Condi damage or that they didn’t have high stacks of Might or Vuln on me. Wasn’t “High stacks of Might and Vuln” one of your arguments before (you or Tim)? Here’s an example where your argument doesn’t even come up and you somehow think that makes my argument weaker? What about the “access to Chill durarion negation,” I have Relentless Pursuit and Hoelbrak. Condi clear? Proven that I can clear other Condi’s just fine by how low my Poison and Bleed is.

Why don’t you take a look at the uptime of Terror versus Chill to think about how much a non-stacking Condi should do. Obviously it should do more damage over the duration of a fight than Terror, but should it dominate the damage in 20 second fight?

And Tim, “strongest damage dealer” is not subjective. It’s an absolute claim, which is not something I do very often.

Tao, no and no. It isn’t an obviously problem thanks to DH’s and Scrappers, but it is a problem.

20 seconds fight?
Takes a torch condi guardian to down you in less than 10 sec.
Takes TrapTorch Condi ranger to down you in less than 10 sec.
Takes BurnEngineer to down you in less than 10 sec.
For like half a year took Celeddele to down you in around 10 sec.

Burn hasn’t changed.

How come Chill is now the strongest damage dealer when it takes around 20 sec if not more to down someone?

Especially when you eagerly talk about might and vulnerability stacking while those Burn cases weren’t Might stacking dependent – except ele maybe?

Chill level is the same as Torment or Confusion.

The argument before regarding high stacks of might and vuln was that people are trying to balance the Necromancer damage around automatically having high stacks of might and vuln. Does that happen for other classes? Perhaps it’s a sensitivity, because it seems Necromancer is constantly balanced around these crazy ideal scenarios where something could be insane. Without the might and vuln, I argue that the damage isn’t too bad. I don’t think 560 damage/second is too bad.

Also, I have a hard time thinking that fight only lasted 20 seconds. If you were clearing condis, how could Bleeding have 100% uptime? And how could Chill? The Necro you were fighting must have been the most hyper-aware player to anticipate your cleanses to re-apply chill/bleed almost instantly, and you didn’t dodge a single application of chill.

You say they potentially weren’t built around high condi damage. What amulet has 900 condi damage instead of 1200, and no power baked in? You took what appears to be 0 direct damage from the Necromancer, which I find odd because everything that applies conditions does some form of damage. If they were a hybrid focusing on both condi and power, wouldn’t you have something else in that log? And why did a Thief only land 3 hits on you in a 20 second fight?

Further, if the Necro didn’t have chill, you would have played the fight such that the Necro did 5000 damage to you in 20 seconds. Does that not strike you as odd and extremely tame? If your cleansing is as on-point as you say, should that make Condi Necro as impotent as it apparently does? Or should they have a mechanism to maintain some level of pressure, while well-timed cleanses just remove the peaks and reset them to buy more time in a fight.

It’s possible that the trait needs a damage reduction, or rescaling of some sort. But this log smells incredibly funny, like something else is going on. It is raising more questions than it is answering.

Also, I’m going to do a rough sketch to map some Chill durations out. Note that you had -53% chill duration outside of shroud, and with Grenth runes and the Reaper line, a Necro can get +50% chill duration. So in effect, you’re negating their benefit.

Here are the sources of chill, their durations, and their cooldowns:

Sigil of Hydromancy – 2 seconds – 9 second cd
Runes of Grenth on being hit – 3 seconds – 30 second cooldown
Runes of Grenth on heal – 3 seconds – 10 second cooldown
Chilling Nova (crit on chilled target, chills adjacent targets) – ~2.5 seconds – 10 second cd
Staff #3 – 4 seconds – 16 second cooldown
Staff #5 (with Shivers of Dread) – ~3.5 seconds – 32 second cooldown
Focus #5 – 5 seconds – 20 second cooldown
Blinds like RS #2, Dagger #4 (if traited) – 2 seconds – 5 second ICD
Greatsword #5 – ~4.75 seconds – 30 second cooldown
RS #3 (with Shivers of Dread) – ~3.5 seconds – 20 second cooldown
RS #5 – ~1.5 seconds – 30 second cooldown

I might have missed some sources (whirling in the ice field adding little stacks of duration, for example), and I know cooldowns can be reduced via traits. However, if you just go down the line and assume you are getting hit by all of those (which you can’t, because there are 3 weapon sets involved), you’re looking at about 34.75 seconds of chill on you. That’s also ignoring the 5 “stack” limit on durations that might effect total, especially if one of the Necro’s allies applies Chill.

Greatsword and Focus would be maybe taken in hybrid builds, but then you’d have a source of direct damage on you I’d imagine, so those must not be involved in your log. That would ~9.75 potential seconds of chill, bringing the above estimate down to 25.75 seconds of chill, assuming you are hit by 1 instance of each (though it’s possible for some to hit multiple times).

That’s a lot of chill duration, but that’s also a build devoting runes, sigils, and traits to maximizing chill uptime. If the Necro’s chill duration is unopposed by runes/traits, it goes up another 50%. The entire build focuses around chill up-time, and the net result of their effort in damage? 560 damage per second.

Yes, chill provides other useful effects, but based on your log, the amount of damage a condi necro can output in bleeds/poisons over 20 seconds isn’t even really enough to threaten you to lose any life you can’t heal back up in that time almost without even trying to do anything.

I just don’t see how it’s doing too much damage. And I don’t see how your log is accurate.

EDIT – The fact that you took 0 torment and burning damage supports your hybrid note, and might mean they went with Greatsword. But why are there no other instances of Necro direct damage? That doesn’t tickle you as odd?

This thread is depressing.

People will not be satisfied until Necro is garbage tier again.

Tao.1234:

meow one twenty.4376:

Attrition doesn’t happen in a 20 second fight. That’s a huge part of the problem, in both long and short fights Chilled is the largest damage dealer. Some may argue that attrition does happen because it is constantly there, but look at the Bleeding, that was constantly there as well.

All the “only 560 damage per tick” means is that they weren’t built around high Condi damage or that they didn’t have high stacks of Might or Vuln on me. Wasn’t “High stacks of Might and Vuln” one of your arguments before (you or Tim)? Here’s an example where your argument doesn’t even come up and you somehow think that makes my argument weaker? What about the “access to Chill durarion negation,” I have Relentless Pursuit and Hoelbrak. Condi clear? Proven that I can clear other Condi’s just fine by how low my Poison and Bleed is.

Why don’t you take a look at the uptime of Terror versus Chill to think about how much a non-stacking Condi should do. Obviously it should do more damage over the duration of a fight than Terror, but should it dominate the damage in 20 second fight?

And Tim, “strongest damage dealer” is not subjective. It’s an absolute claim, which is not something I do very often.

Tao, no and no. It isn’t an obviously problem thanks to DH’s and Scrappers, but it is a problem.

20 seconds fight?
Takes a torch condi guardian to down you in less than 10 sec.
Takes TrapTorch Condi ranger to down you in less than 10 sec.
Takes BurnEngineer to down you in less than 10 sec.
For like half a year took Celeddele to down you in around 10 sec.

Burn hasn’t changed.

How come Chill is now the strongest damage dealer when it takes around 20 sec if not more to down someone?

Especially when you eagerly talk about might and vulnerability stacking while those Burn cases weren’t Might stacking dependent – except ele maybe?

Chill level is the same as Torment or Confusion.

The answer to everything you wrote here is that I am talking specifically about Reaper.

Cogbyrn.7283:

The argument before regarding high stacks of might and vuln was that people are trying to balance the Necromancer damage around automatically having high stacks of might and vuln. Does that happen for other classes? Perhaps it’s a sensitivity, because it seems Necromancer is constantly balanced around these crazy ideal scenarios where something could be insane. Without the might and vuln, I argue that the damage isn’t too bad. I don’t think 560 damage/second is too bad.

Also, I have a hard time thinking that fight only lasted 20 seconds. If you were clearing condis, how could Bleeding have 100% uptime? And how could Chill? The Necro you were fighting must have been the most hyper-aware player to anticipate your cleanses to re-apply chill/bleed almost instantly, and you didn’t dodge a single application of chill.

You say they potentially weren’t built around high condi damage. What amulet has 900 condi damage instead of 1200, and no power baked in? You took what appears to be 0 direct damage from the Necromancer, which I find odd because everything that applies conditions does some form of damage. If they were a hybrid focusing on both condi and power, wouldn’t you have something else in that log? And why did a Thief only land 3 hits on you in a 20 second fight?

Further, if the Necro didn’t have chill, you would have played the fight such that the Necro did 5000 damage to you in 20 seconds. Does that not strike you as odd and extremely tame? If your cleansing is as on-point as you say, should that make Condi Necro as impotent as it apparently does? Or should they have a mechanism to maintain some level of pressure, while well-timed cleanses just remove the peaks and reset them to buy more time in a fight.

It’s possible that the trait needs a damage reduction, or rescaling of some sort. But this log smells incredibly funny, like something else is going on. It is raising more questions than it is answering.

Also, I’m going to do a rough sketch to map some Chill durations out. Note that you had -53% chill duration outside of shroud, and with Grenth runes and the Reaper line, a Necro can get +50% chill duration. So in effect, you’re negating their benefit.

Here are the sources of chill, their durations, and their cooldowns:

Sigil of Hydromancy – 2 seconds – 9 second cd
Runes of Grenth on being hit – 3 seconds – 30 second cooldown
Runes of Grenth on heal – 3 seconds – 10 second cooldown
Chilling Nova (crit on chilled target, chills adjacent targets) – ~2.5 seconds – 10 second cd
Staff #3 – 4 seconds – 16 second cooldown
Staff #5 (with Shivers of Dread) – ~3.5 seconds – 32 second cooldown
Focus #5 – 5 seconds – 20 second cooldown
Blinds like RS #2, Dagger #4 (if traited) – 2 seconds – 5 second ICD
Greatsword #5 – ~4.75 seconds – 30 second cooldown
RS #3 (with Shivers of Dread) – ~3.5 seconds – 20 second cooldown
RS #5 – ~1.5 seconds – 30 second cooldown

I might have missed some sources (whirling in the ice field adding little stacks of duration, for example), and I know cooldowns can be reduced via traits. However, if you just go down the line and assume you are getting hit by all of those (which you can’t, because there are 3 weapon sets involved), you’re looking at about 34.75 seconds of chill on you. That’s also ignoring the 5 “stack” limit on durations that might effect total, especially if one of the Necro’s allies applies Chill.

Greatsword and Focus would be maybe taken in hybrid builds, but then you’d have a source of direct damage on you I’d imagine, so those must not be involved in your log. That would ~9.75 potential seconds of chill, bringing the above estimate down to 25.75 seconds of chill, assuming you are hit by 1 instance of each (though it’s possible for some to hit multiple times).

That’s a lot of chill duration, but that’s also a build devoting runes, sigils, and traits to maximizing chill uptime. If the Necro’s chill duration is unopposed by runes/traits, it goes up another 50%. The entire build focuses around chill up-time, and the net result of their effort in damage? 560 damage per second.

Yes, chill provides other useful effects, but based on your log, the amount of damage a condi necro can output in bleeds/poisons over 20 seconds isn’t even really enough to threaten you to lose any life you can’t heal back up in that time almost without even trying to do anything.

I just don’t see how it’s doing too much damage. And I don’t see how your log is accurate.

EDIT – The fact that you took 0 torment and burning damage supports your hybrid note, and might mean they went with Greatsword. But why are there no other instances of Necro direct damage? That doesn’t tickle you as odd?

Multiple Reapers. It wasn’t just one. A couple Chillblains, Marks of Blood, Reaper Marks, maybe even Terrify. There you have the Bleeding, Poison, Chilling with almost no direct damage and constant Chill/Bleeding even through Condi cleanse.

meow one twenty.4376:

The answer to everything you wrote here is that I am talking specifically about Reaper.

Ooh, so that’s how it works.

It doesn’t matter that there is something more powerful and it’s actually okay.

Specifically we have to throw Reaper into trash bin aye?

Well, sir, you have just lost a beer.

Tao.1234:

meow one twenty.4376:

The answer to everything you wrote here is that I am talking specifically about Reaper.

Ooh, so that’s how it works.

It doesn’t matter that there is something more powerful and it’s actually okay.

Specifically we have to throw Reaper into trash bin aye?

Well, sir, you have just lost a beer.

I don’t need your beer. I prefer whiskey.

When I look at damage I look at what is happening for each class individually. What is happening with Ele’s or Guardians (past or present) is irrelevant while I’m discussing the effects of Chilled in a vacuum of Reaper. Saying X is okay because Y does X*1.5 damage isn’t my thing, they could both be super overpowered. In the case of Chilled versus the previous metas Burning you are taking one feature and comparing it to another overpowered feature, one does all damage and the other does damage + cooldown increase + movement impairment.

I’m anti-powercreep. Not anti-Reaper, especially since I only use Reaper. Maybe if you actually cared about posts other than Reaper you would see that I’ve said that other classes need nerfing too for the sake of preventing powercreep.

meow one twenty.4376:

Cogbyrn.7283:

The argument before regarding high stacks of might and vuln was that people are trying to balance the Necromancer damage around automatically having high stacks of might and vuln. Does that happen for other classes? Perhaps it’s a sensitivity, because it seems Necromancer is constantly balanced around these crazy ideal scenarios where something could be insane. Without the might and vuln, I argue that the damage isn’t too bad. I don’t think 560 damage/second is too bad.

Also, I have a hard time thinking that fight only lasted 20 seconds. If you were clearing condis, how could Bleeding have 100% uptime? And how could Chill? The Necro you were fighting must have been the most hyper-aware player to anticipate your cleanses to re-apply chill/bleed almost instantly, and you didn’t dodge a single application of chill.

You say they potentially weren’t built around high condi damage. What amulet has 900 condi damage instead of 1200, and no power baked in? You took what appears to be 0 direct damage from the Necromancer, which I find odd because everything that applies conditions does some form of damage. If they were a hybrid focusing on both condi and power, wouldn’t you have something else in that log? And why did a Thief only land 3 hits on you in a 20 second fight?

Further, if the Necro didn’t have chill, you would have played the fight such that the Necro did 5000 damage to you in 20 seconds. Does that not strike you as odd and extremely tame? If your cleansing is as on-point as you say, should that make Condi Necro as impotent as it apparently does? Or should they have a mechanism to maintain some level of pressure, while well-timed cleanses just remove the peaks and reset them to buy more time in a fight.

It’s possible that the trait needs a damage reduction, or rescaling of some sort. But this log smells incredibly funny, like something else is going on. It is raising more questions than it is answering.

Also, I’m going to do a rough sketch to map some Chill durations out. Note that you had -53% chill duration outside of shroud, and with Grenth runes and the Reaper line, a Necro can get +50% chill duration. So in effect, you’re negating their benefit.

Here are the sources of chill, their durations, and their cooldowns:

Sigil of Hydromancy – 2 seconds – 9 second cd
Runes of Grenth on being hit – 3 seconds – 30 second cooldown
Runes of Grenth on heal – 3 seconds – 10 second cooldown
Chilling Nova (crit on chilled target, chills adjacent targets) – ~2.5 seconds – 10 second cd
Staff #3 – 4 seconds – 16 second cooldown
Staff #5 (with Shivers of Dread) – ~3.5 seconds – 32 second cooldown
Focus #5 – 5 seconds – 20 second cooldown
Blinds like RS #2, Dagger #4 (if traited) – 2 seconds – 5 second ICD
Greatsword #5 – ~4.75 seconds – 30 second cooldown
RS #3 (with Shivers of Dread) – ~3.5 seconds – 20 second cooldown
RS #5 – ~1.5 seconds – 30 second cooldown

I might have missed some sources (whirling in the ice field adding little stacks of duration, for example), and I know cooldowns can be reduced via traits. However, if you just go down the line and assume you are getting hit by all of those (which you can’t, because there are 3 weapon sets involved), you’re looking at about 34.75 seconds of chill on you. That’s also ignoring the 5 “stack” limit on durations that might effect total, especially if one of the Necro’s allies applies Chill.

Greatsword and Focus would be maybe taken in hybrid builds, but then you’d have a source of direct damage on you I’d imagine, so those must not be involved in your log. That would ~9.75 potential seconds of chill, bringing the above estimate down to 25.75 seconds of chill, assuming you are hit by 1 instance of each (though it’s possible for some to hit multiple times).

That’s a lot of chill duration, but that’s also a build devoting runes, sigils, and traits to maximizing chill uptime. If the Necro’s chill duration is unopposed by runes/traits, it goes up another 50%. The entire build focuses around chill up-time, and the net result of their effort in damage? 560 damage per second.

Yes, chill provides other useful effects, but based on your log, the amount of damage a condi necro can output in bleeds/poisons over 20 seconds isn’t even really enough to threaten you to lose any life you can’t heal back up in that time almost without even trying to do anything.

I just don’t see how it’s doing too much damage. And I don’t see how your log is accurate.

EDIT – The fact that you took 0 torment and burning damage supports your hybrid note, and might mean they went with Greatsword. But why are there no other instances of Necro direct damage? That doesn’t tickle you as odd?

Multiple Reapers. It wasn’t just one. A couple Chillblains, Marks of Blood, Reaper Marks, maybe even Terrify. There you have the Bleeding, Poison, Chilling with almost no direct damage and constant Chill/Bleeding even through Condi cleanse.

So multiple Reapers, in 20 seconds, did 3000 bleed damage, ~2200 poison damage, and a combined 10,000 chilled damage. And judging by the avg damage, Chill doesn’t tick for both reapers. So really, if they both spec for Chill damage, all they’re doing is securing 560 damage/tick on average at a higher up-time. Their chills don’t even stack.

I don’t understand the issue. The “constant bleeding” averaged 150 damage per tick. That’s peanuts. And this is two reapers?

Again. Does this combat log not look funny to you? Nothing about it adds up, and I feel it’s being used as part of the argument to say “look, this needs to be changed”.

It took two reapers and a Thief who did 9000 damage in 3 hits to bring you down in 20 seconds. And are you saying Chill damage needs to be nerfed? If anything, that demonstrated how you can’t really “cheese” the chill damage, because only one instance can be ticking at any given time.

But again. Am I going crazy? Does this damage log look weird to anyone else?

EDIT – And I prefer whiskey too. High-fives!

Nah, that log looks really weird period. That all looks like incidental damage when they were focusing someone else.

meow one twenty.4376:

I don’t need your beer. I prefer whiskey.

When I look at damage I look at what is happening for each class individually. What is happening with Ele’s or Guardians (past or present) is irrelevant while I’m discussing the effects of Chilled in a vacuum of Reaper. Saying X is okay because Y does X*1.5 damage isn’t my thing, they could both be super overpowered. In the case of Chilled versus the previous metas Burning you are taking one feature and comparing it to another overpowered feature, one does all damage and the other does damage + cooldown increase + movement impairment.

I’m anti-powercreep. Not anti-Reaper, especially since I only use Reaper. Maybe if you actually cared about posts other than Reaper you would see that I’ve said that other classes need nerfing too for the sake of preventing powercreep.

You broke your bubble with this post:

Multiple Reapers. It wasn’t just one. A couple Chillblains, Marks of Blood, Reaper Marks, maybe even Terrify. There you have the Bleeding, Poison, Chilling with almost no direct damage and constant Chill/Bleeding even through Condi cleanse.

Chill has the shortest duration as condition in game.

Movement impairing effect doesn’t affect skills such as

• teleports
• blinks
• shadowsteps
• leaps
• movement based skills(Rush, Whirlwind)

You’re complaining about being perma chilled by group of reapers.

Then perhaps you should create a complain thread about group of PU Condi Mesmers who perma stack Torment and Confusion?

How about group of P/D thieves stacking perma bleed, Immobilize, cripple and torment?

Just made a check up with 25 might you inflict ~831 damage per tick from Chill.

With max Vulnerability can go up to ~930 damage per tick from Chill.

25 might and 25 vulnerability for like 1k tick per second…

Considering cooldowns and how certain abilities are so long in casting – like Executioner’s Scythe or Chilled to the Bone.

Cryomancer is pretty much successful when you lock someone down and make no mistakes – which is by most cases only when your enemy is taken by surprise.

Focus abilities may work in WvW or from behind, but in 1v1 forget about landing this on decent player.

Making long story short:

Condition wise, engineer, guardian or even Warrior is tenfold more efficient and threatening than this little joke.