Guild Wars 2

Okay I just left PVP to write this up. This is actually my first post.
I was running through the battlefield and came across a Thief.

The guy vanished, hit me and BAM I was suddenly dying on the ground.

Now as this is my first post I am sure there have been others regarding “overpowered classes” and I just read through one of the developers saying “find a counter” before making that claim but I have to say…I can’t counter what happened when I was dead before I could react. I play sPVP primarily in this game and I was just floored at what happened.

Could a DEV even counter that?
I seriously doubt it.

Now I play a Thief occasionally, and personally I don’t think they are overpowered at all, I think there are certain combinations that can be made with a few Professions that are just undeniably unstoppable. There seriously needs to be some retooling if this is going to be the norm because I literally had 1 second to react. ONE SECOND between that fast attack and I was “fighting for my life”.

COME ON.

I have seen a few on Youtube that can drop health pretty quickly if utilized properly but NOTHING like what I just went through. Those attacks (Pistol/Sword for example) could at least be countered. This was just plain wrong. W-R-O-N-G.

It’s not even PVP.
It’s not even a fight.
Hell…it’s probably not even that hard to do because I am sure it wasn’t an exploit.

The point is that stuff like this takes the fun right out of the game. You expect some level of player versus player in PVP, not 2-3 button kills.

Who wants to play PVP like that anyway?
I wouldn’t even if I could.
It’s extremely cheap and without challenege.

So Devs, this isn’t a case of someone crying “OP!!!” just because they couldn’t stop a player, this is someone who has been PVPing since release and just came across a serious WTF moment. I even said that in PVP.

“Did I just die without even any time to react??!”

The Thief responded with a ‘<3’.

Yeah.

- H

All would be mended with a healer class to balance all others around..

Ritualist…please re-introduce ritualist and give it dedicated heal options.

That was just insane, though.
I didn’t have time to heal or anything.

I’ve literally never seen that before in GW2 PVP at all.

What class do you play?

I play every Profession.
All of them.

I level to 2 and go straight into PVP.
I do have one level 40 but that was my first toon.

Like I said, I love to PVP, but not if this is going to be happening.
It doesn’t matter which one I was playing.

I guess it went like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-udk3CEtc7E

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say he was on an elementalist :p

A healer profession won’t happen, a water ele is as close as we ever get to something like that. It’s more likely that they will just decrease the burst damage that can be done by some professions.

@OP
How much toughness and health do you have? Two seconds sounds a like it’s not much.

Another example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkmUEQpisC4 (at 28:48 specifically)

Ixal.7924:

I guess it went like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-udk3CEtc7E

HA!

That’s it. I am fairly certain.

Wow. That’s just insane.

I remember playing WoW years ago and having to deal with a tough Rogue, if this is going to be the norm, they’ve got NOTHING on a GW2 Thief.

Good night!!!!

Sharpe.1485:

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say he was on an elementalist :p

Agreed.

Whats wrong with admitting your playing an elementalist?

That’s just too much.
Sorry, but that’s not PVP.

It’s no skill easymode stuff like this that makes PVP a drag.
I seriously was dying in about 2 seconds after seeing the Thief.
The guy even had the nerve to brag about doing that cheap attack.

GW2 is taking the “Fight” out of PVP if they don’t do something about things like this.

Harmadda.5971:

I play every Profession.
All of them.

I level to 2 and go straight into PVP.
I do have one level 40 but that was my first toon.

Like I said, I love to PVP, but not if this is going to be happening.
It doesn’t matter which one I was playing.

If you are playing every profession, go and do some PvP on your Thief. Figure out how he did it and go practice to do it yourself. Then see what you have to give up and how often you actually manage to do that and is it even as usefull as you think it is.

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

Sharpe.1485:

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say he was on an elementalist :p

Agreed.

Whats wrong with admitting your playing an elementalist?

Did you watch the FIRST video link posted in the thread?

Guess not.
If you did you’d see that move done on a Thief, Warrior, Ranger, Elementalist, Necro…

So no.
You’re wrong if you think this is solely an Elementalist problem.
Even if it were that doesn’t remove the “cheapness” from the move.

Here it is again.
Watch carefully:

- H

I was curious what class you were playing, and how you had your traits set up.

I watched the video , and also went up against people using that move. Did not really like it, but have not had time to try a thief in depth yet and see whats what.

The concept of having attacks that 1 shot players is poor, I agree with that- ideally it should be at least an exchance of a few hits each giving the players chance to show who has better command of their class.

Ameepa.6793:

If you are playing every profession, go and do some PvP on your Thief. Figure out how he did it and go practice to do it yourself. Then see what you have to give up and how often you actually manage to do that and is it even as usefull as you think it is.

Well it was useful in neutralizing an opponent and capturing a node so that much is for sure. I know how it was done now since the video was given to me in this thread though.

I just think it’s pretty lame, and I can’t see myself doing it in PVP.
I actually like the challenge of the fight and outplaying an opponent.

Not this “I DIDZ EAZY ATTACKZ MOVEZ” to down someone in 2 seconds and get a kill.

It’s not even worth bragging about.
There’s no skill involved really.

It’s just not me and I think it shouldn’t even be in PVP at all.

- H

Ixal.7924:

I guess it went like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-udk3CEtc7E

I’ve seen something like this but what I’ve seen recently is them completely stealth. They never come out. People had been complaining about it before in W3 and sPvP how you could be dead to a thief before you could even click an ability. I personally thought they were crazy until I saw it happen to myself as an engineer.

Saw a thief disappear in the distance just afk looking and next thing I know I’m instantly to about 1-2k health. The moment I had got hit I immediately pop healing turret to bring me back up to 6k, dodged twice, while popping elixir b and then pop elixir S to make myself invul and try to find him while running away. The entire time he was stealthed and the moment elixir S ended I lost all my remaining ~7k health and downed instantly. Then of course still not to be seen I get finished. So not at one time did I ever see him besides at the very start out of range and a few seconds after he killed me off he reappeared and ran towards the next person near by doing the exact same thing.

This makes me wonder a few things, first how can you counter against someone you can’t see. I used all resources available to me that I could quickly cast in that 5-7 second long fight so what else could I have possibly done to force him out of stealth at the very start so I could actually attack back? Now I hear the argument that you’re too squishy this and that but I’ve heard the same reports from tanky decked out warriors. So while at first I thought everyone was crazy, after it happened to me it just doesn’t seem right. I’ve played 4 classes now quite a bit, Engineer, Guardian, Mesmer, Warrior and while reviewing I just don’t see how anyone could counter this besides another thief that could stealth and run away. It just comes down to you have no one to attack, they do crazy amounts of damage, and it happens so quickly.

Overall I don’t mind that they can do crazy amounts of damage so quickly but the fact they are stealthed the entire time on top of it just doesn’t seem balanced really.

Hey guys! I know how to fix this!

Let’s nerf Mesmer phantasms and staff skills, because they are clearly overpowered!

Forget the thief, they’ve got nothing on the mesmer’s overpowered chaos storm (that has a 30 second CD, lasts only 6 seconds and cant kill anyone with half a brain to dodge out of) Lets make phantasms have a 40 sec CD so that those lazy people can finally be bothered to kill them!

Let’s nerf the mesmer more, because they clearly are overpowered in PvE and the average fight to kill one in PvP lasts more than 2 seconds!

Levelord.5746:

Hey guys! I know how to fix this!

Let’s nerf Mesmer phantasms and staff skills, because they are clearly overpowered!

Forget the thief, they’ve got nothing on the mesmer’s overpowered chaos storm (that has a 30 second CD, lasts only 6 seconds and cant kill anyone with half a brain to dodge out of) Lets make phantasms have a 40 sec CD so that those lazy people can finally be bothered to kill them!

Let’s nerf the mesmer more, because they clearly are overpowered in PvE and the average fight to kill one in PvP lasts more than 2 seconds!

Mesmer is overpowered? Since when? We’re talking about a class that can kill you in just a few seconds before you can even react. A mesmer does not pull off such damage, not even close.

Harmadda.5971:

TransparentlyOpaque.1824:

Sharpe.1485:

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say he was on an elementalist :p

Agreed.

Whats wrong with admitting your playing an elementalist?

Did you watch the FIRST video link posted in the thread?

Guess not.
If you did you’d see that move done on a Thief, Warrior, Ranger, Elementalist, Necro…

So no.
You’re wrong if you think this is solely an Elementalist problem.
Even if it were that doesn’t remove the “cheapness” from the move.

Here it is again.
Watch carefully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-udk3CEtc7E
- H

There’s no need to get your panties in a twist – was simply making an educated guess seeing as alot of people still spec their elementalist as a glass cannon, in a class that has no cannon – and this sort of occurrence is quite frequent on those sort of specs/gearing options.

But yes, thief burst is a universal problem. So I’m actually agreeing with you, no need to get your flamethrower out :P

StarFreeze.3812:

Levelord.5746:

Hey guys! I know how to fix this!

Let’s nerf Mesmer phantasms and staff skills, because they are clearly overpowered!

Forget the thief, they’ve got nothing on the mesmer’s overpowered chaos storm (that has a 30 second CD, lasts only 6 seconds and cant kill anyone with half a brain to dodge out of) Lets make phantasms have a 40 sec CD so that those lazy people can finally be bothered to kill them!

Let’s nerf the mesmer more, because they clearly are overpowered in PvE and the average fight to kill one in PvP lasts more than 2 seconds!

Mesmer is overpowered? Since when? We’re talking about a class that can kill you in just a few seconds before you can even react. A mesmer does not pull off such damage, not even close.

I’m mostly just dripping with sarcasm with my post.
I’m still kitten off Anet decided to nerf mesmers so badly to the point that they are stupidly useless in PvE (can’t tag anything in DEs anymore, can’t deal meaningful consistent damage in dungeons) in the name of PvP balacing.

Then you see videos with thieves killing toughness/vitality warriors in 2 seconds and you wonder why Anet thought that mesmers were so urgently in need of a nerf in the first place, since fights with mesmers doesn’t take 2 bloody seconds.

Sharpe.1485:

So I’m actually agreeing with you, no need to get your flamethrower out :P

Don’t worry. Flamethrower is weak and bugged.

StarFreeze.3812:

Overall I don’t mind that they can do crazy amounts of damage so quickly but the fact they are stealthed the entire time on top of it just doesn’t seem balanced really.

Yes that is not balanced BUT it also should not be possible.

Thieves stealth lasts only 2-4 seconds and break on first hit they do and they cannot stealth again for 3 seconds after. Only shadow refugee is a bit longer but the thief is trapped in that aoe circle during that.

That is how it is supposed to work.

If that perma-stealth thing is happening, problem is something else than mechanics and should be fixed to work as intended.

Ameepa.6793:

StarFreeze.3812:

Overall I don’t mind that they can do crazy amounts of damage so quickly but the fact they are stealthed the entire time on top of it just doesn’t seem balanced really.

Yes that is not balanced BUT it also should not be possible.

Thieves stealth lasts only 2-4 seconds and break on first hit they do and they cannot stealth again for 3 seconds after. Only shadow refugee is a bit longer but the thief is trapped in that aoe circle during that.

That is how it is supposed to work.

If that perma-stealth thing is happening, problem is something else than mechanics and should be fixed to work as intended.

I have read in some topic, I think it was of the Thief board, that sometimes stealth lasts a lot longer because of rendering lag.

Ixal.7924:

Ameepa.6793:

StarFreeze.3812:

Overall I don’t mind that they can do crazy amounts of damage so quickly but the fact they are stealthed the entire time on top of it just doesn’t seem balanced really.

Yes that is not balanced BUT it also should not be possible.

Thieves stealth lasts only 2-4 seconds and break on first hit they do and they cannot stealth again for 3 seconds after. Only shadow refugee is a bit longer but the thief is trapped in that aoe circle during that.

That is how it is supposed to work.

If that perma-stealth thing is happening, problem is something else than mechanics and should be fixed to work as intended.

O have read in some topic, I think it was of the Thief board, that sometimes stealth lasts a lot longer because of rendering lag.

Might be something like that and if that is the case, the thief himself does not even know that he is invisible to the opponent :P

Other invisible things have been happening in WvWvW lately with every class and even NPCs

Harmadda.5971:

Well it was useful in neutralizing an opponent and capturing a node so that much is for sure. I know how it was done now since the video was given to me in this thread though.

I just think it’s pretty lame, and I can’t see myself doing it in PVP.
I actually like the challenge of the fight and outplaying an opponent.

Not this “I DIDZ EAZY ATTACKZ MOVEZ” to down someone in 2 seconds and get a kill.

It’s not even worth bragging about.
There’s no skill involved really.

It’s just not me and I think it shouldn’t even be in PVP at all.

- H

It’s really weird that as a thief, I’ve never been backstab one-shotted by a thief before. I can imagine the feeling of utter despair though when my dagger severs a spine and leaves my enemy crumpled at my feet, life is unfair sometimes.

Anyway.

In real life if I got into a fight to the death with someone, you better believe I’m going all out, I really couldn’t care less how my opponent conducts themselves in combat. I need to win, that’s the entire point, survival. “But Cyric, this isn’t real life, it’s a video game! Real life comparisons are invalid here!” Of course, let’s move on.

In my opinion, you were outplayed and haven’t realized how to counter this particular attack yet. I’ve come across players that have totally negated my opener and started giving me the D pretty hard, forcing me to retreat, and come back in at the next opportune chance. Maybe it was just my overzealous desire to eat the enemy’s face off in a mere 2.4 seconds flat that cost me my opener or maybe my opponent saw me coming and made a quick tactical preparation for what he/she thought was most likely to occur.

Lastly, I don’t know when this whole “kills I deem unskillful don’t count” nonsense came about but it’s silly. In real life, it doesn’t matter to me how I put you down so long as you’re face down in the dirt. In game, it doesn’t matter to me how I put you down so long as it’s legit and you’re face up with a giant banner in your chest.

In the end, while I somewhat sympathize with your dismay at being insta-gibbed, I can’t help but feel like you’re partially responsible for your own defeat either through lack of preparation or poor build choices.

TransparentlyOpaque

Agreed.

Whats wrong with admitting your playing an elementalist?

Yeah admit you played an elementalist. You know, even people with good reputation some times fall that low and log in their ele

Of course after few seconds they are dead and then they see their downed “abilities” again and thus decide to return on their new main ASAP. An uneasy feeling of unclean still sticking in their mind for having logged their elementalist some minutes earlier.

Cyric.7485:

In my opinion, you were outplayed and haven’t realized how to counter this particular attack yet.

Before Mondays patch there was no counter to this as Basilisk Venom couldn’t be broken. Now you have a split second to hit your stun break before the thief lands backstab, otherwise you are dead.
Sounds balanced.

That is true the invisible players has been especially bad lately in the last patch or two. Even when barely anyone around so perhaps that’s really it. They aren’t suppose to be stealthed that long and probably aren’t, you just can’t see them due to a rendering issue. In my case he didn’t pop shadow refugee until after I was downed. Plus I was running at full speed while under elixir S so even he did have it up we both would have been far from it at that point.

Ixal.7924:

Cyric.7485:

In my opinion, you were outplayed and haven’t realized how to counter this particular attack yet.

Before Mondays patch there was no counter to this as Basilisk Venom couldn’t be broken. Now you have a split second to hit your stun break before the thief lands backstab, otherwise you are dead.
Sounds balanced.

Well considering how commonplace backstab thieves are, it shouldn’t be too much trouble to move your finger to your condition cleanse hotkey when you see a thief approaching, huh?

Cyric.7485:

Ixal.7924:

Cyric.7485:

In my opinion, you were outplayed and haven’t realized how to counter this particular attack yet.

Before Mondays patch there was no counter to this as Basilisk Venom couldn’t be broken. Now you have a split second to hit your stun break before the thief lands backstab, otherwise you are dead.
Sounds balanced.

Well considering how commonplace backstab thieves are, it shouldn’t be too much trouble to move your finger to your condition cleanse hotkey when you see a thief approaching, huh?

So where are the other classes “instant kill enemy unless he uses one specific ability within 0.2 seconds” combos?
And of course every class has as many stun breaks as there are thieves in PvP. When a class forces you to have a dead ability which you can’t use because it must always be ready to counter an instant kill combo it is a good sign that this combo is OP.

Cyric

Well considering how commonplace backstab thieves are, it shouldn’t be too much trouble to move your finger to your condition cleanse hotkey when you see a thief approaching, huh?

Good thieves clearly run around like headless chickens, well in the open, holding a sign saying: “HEY GUYS GET READY FOR ME!”.

Ixal.7924:

Cyric.7485:

Ixal.7924:

Cyric.7485:

In my opinion, you were outplayed and haven’t realized how to counter this particular attack yet.

Before Mondays patch there was no counter to this as Basilisk Venom couldn’t be broken. Now you have a split second to hit your stun break before the thief lands backstab, otherwise you are dead.
Sounds balanced.

Well considering how commonplace backstab thieves are, it shouldn’t be too much trouble to move your finger to your condition cleanse hotkey when you see a thief approaching, huh?

So where are the other classes “instant kill enemy unless he uses one specific ability within 0.2 seconds” combos?
And of course every class has as many stun breaks as there are thieves in PvP.

I can’t answer that as I don’t have any alts currently. By the tone of your replies though, I’m getting the impression you’re one of those players that thinks every class should be able to do the same thing as any other class, effectively removing the entire basis of a class system. Each class fulfills a particular role in GW2, it just so happens that thieves are built around the role of dealing damage.

As for the whole “avoid in 0.2 seconds” remark, I’m curious if you think all players should have a charge-up animation similar to NPC mobs so that you have time to contemplate where you want to dodge, because as it stands now you pretty much have 0.2 seconds to dodge any attack most of the time as well. Every player attack in the game can be dodged to my knowledge… this means you can dodge Steal, you can dodge Cloak & Dagger, you can dodge Backstab, you can dodge Heartseeker, etc etc. When Basilisk Venom is activated, it’s applied to the next offensive action performed by the thief and only lasts for 30 seconds or one action, so if you dodge it…. guess what? It’s gone now. :-\

I won’t deny that thieves aren’t easy to dodge, what with all our shadowstepping antics, but I firmly believe that becoming familiar enough with something will allow you to anticipate it properly.

Vaerah.4907:

Cyric

Well considering how commonplace backstab thieves are, it shouldn’t be too much trouble to move your finger to your condition cleanse hotkey when you see a thief approaching, huh?

Good thieves clearly run around like headless chickens, well in the open, holding a sign saying: “HEY GUYS GET READY FOR ME!”.

Yeah, because we’re all so bloated of ego that we blow all our utility skills just to GET to you and backstab you, never once thinking we might need to escape if things don’t go according to plan.

Good argument.

Thats how rogues do it all time. And they went and nerfd rangers. I think ppl who balance classes atm are clueless on how classes work atm.
From what i seen of rogues so far, that is just not right.

The problem with the thief class is 2 fold:

1. Initiative- This system makes it incredibly hard to balance the class. ArenaNet was informed in beta that this would cause major issues. If a thief is using initiative traits they can get a whole lot of burst, if they aren’t then they are actually underpowered. Bottomline here is that the system needs redone OR at the very least a bandaid fix is removing initiative traits and giving a fixed initiative regen.

2. Stealth- As everyone knows the rendering issues make this near an exploit. They either need to fix the rendering issues OR design around them. Increase the revealed debuff time.

The problem with the current combat system is 2 fold as well:

1. Crit/% Crit damage- These are so easily stackable and because of that create such huge amounts of burst. Both of these could easily be brought down by 50% and still provide stupid amounts of burst or they could make sure it is a choice between power or precision or crit dmg. That way we would have builds that have high power and crit but no crit dmg and builds that have low power but high crit and crit damage.

2. Quickness- This just amplifies the previous problems. It either needs removed from the game or have it’s effects cut in half.

Combine all of the above and you have a high crit/crit dmg thief using quickness(haste), and a spammable high damage attack all while going unseen due to stealth rendering issues. Yes it is OP and it needs fixed. It isn’t the only build that needs fixed either.

On another topic…the base health differences for classes needs wiped out. I mean another class shouldn’t have nearly double(80%) the health of another. The armor needs changed as well. There is zero justification for classes getting heavy armor vs light. A warrior has the most burst/sustained damage for both ranged and melee yet has the most health and armor. It isn’t like there are tanks either since almost all classes have melee builds available to them. Make heavy/med/light armor available to all classes with pros/cons attached to them. Perhaps a full set of heavy reduces damage by 10%, med increases run speed by 10%, and light increases range by 10%; not great but you get the idea.

Cyric.7485:

As for the whole “avoid in 0.2 seconds” remark, I’m curious if you think all players should have a charge-up animation similar to NPC mobs so that you have time to contemplate where you want to dodge, because as it stands now you pretty much have 0.2 seconds to dodge any attack most of the time as well. Every player attack in the game can be dodged to my knowledge… this means you can dodge Steal, you can dodge Cloak & Dagger, you can dodge Backstab, you can dodge Heartseeker, etc etc. When Basilisk Venom is activated, it’s applied to the next offensive action performed by the thief and only lasts for 30 seconds or one action, so if you dodge it…. guess what? It’s gone now. :-\

All fine and when you have a high noon showdown with a Thief and know that he will attack NOW. But as soon as you don’t see a thief he can instant kill you with no defense barring the stun break of basilisk venom.
Should every class do the same? Every class should be as dangerous as everyone else. But currently hardly anyone fears a class so much as a thief because only thieves have an instant kill combo.

Want balanced PvP? Either give other classes equally threatening combos or town down the thief.

Cyric.7485:

Yeah, because we’re all so bloated of ego that we blow all our utility skills just to GET to you and backstab you, never once thinking we might need to escape if things don’t go according to plan.

Good argument.

What has that to do with what he said?
And in PvP a thief will blow his abilities to backstab someone. Maybe its you, maybe its someone else, but he will instant kill someone.

Also its not as if the thief lacks escape mechanisms.

Cyric.7485:

As for the whole “avoid in 0.2 seconds” remark, I’m curious if you think all players should have a charge-up animation similar to NPC mobs so that you have time to contemplate where you want to dodge, because as it stands now you pretty much have 0.2 seconds to dodge an attack most of the time as well.

Only hammer warriors and elementalists play like NPCs. People have up to 4 seconds to “dodge” certain attacks, it can be done by simply walking away…

Cyric.7485:

Every player attack in the game can be dodged to my knowledge… this means you can dodge Steal, you can dodge Cloak & Dagger, you can dodge Backstab, you can dodge Heartseeker, etc etc.

That’s why we got 1 million endurance points and we can dodge the endless string of 5k-6k attacks (some spammable) coming from thieves.

Cyric.7485:

I won’t deny that thieves aren’t easy to dodge, what with all our shadowstepping antics, but I firmly believe that becoming familiar enough with something with allow you to anticipate it properly.

You know why they aren’t easy to dodge? Because you can’t dodge what you don’t see and thieves appear on screen well after they landed their “next attack”.

This kind of stupidity also affected Warhammer Online, a “thief” of that game could open with a stun that lasted 2 seconds, and in those 2 seconds he could kill a squishie who would not completely go super-t*rd defense spec + full tank gear.
They’d also appear on screen almost at the time when the other guy died.
They were as fun as GW2 thieves to fight, and like them, if they would be countered they could just stealth away in peace.

Cyric.7485:

Yeah, because we’re all so bloated of ego that we blow all our utility skills just to GET to you and backstab you, never once thinking we might need to escape if things don’t go according to plan.

Good argument.

Poor kitty, they won’t attack if they don’t have the 100% safe retreat abilities full up.
How sad, when all the other classes beginning with warrior and necro can escape whenever things don’t go according to plan, eh? Oh wait, welcome to being like the other classes.

“But but but we are squisheeeeeeee”. Really? Tell me about squishie, I also play Elementalist, same health as yours and even full bunker spec, exotic cleric gear etc. I still get spam critted for 6.5k by yours truly.

Ixal.7924:

Want balanced PvP? Either give other classes equally threatening combos or town down the thief.

Other classes should have equally threatening combos, I think that would really spice the PvP scene up quite a bit actually!

Vaerah.4907:

Only hammer warriors and elementalists play like NPCs. People have up to 4 seconds to “dodge” certain attacks, it can be done by simply walking away…

If the majority of attacks could be dodged by simply walking away, I would be nigh unstoppable. Exaggeration is not a suitable retort, sorry.

Vaerah.4907:

That’s why we got 1 million endurance points and we can dodge the endless string of 5k-6k attacks (some spammable) coming from thieves.

This makes me laugh because it’s almost as if you believe that only thieves can achieve those kinds of results with damage. There have been plenty of times my HP has practically vanished before my very eyes and stealth doesn’t even save us, we still get hit by channeled abilities and AoE!

Thieves are built around the initiative mechanic, our abilities are supposed to be spammable. What everyone seems to forget is that our initiative puts ALL our abilities on the same cooldown resource. This means we can’t swap to a different weapon set and have a whole new bar of abilities to use, this also means that if we’re spamming abilities we’re going to run out of initiative pretty fast. You know what a thief without initiative is? Dead.

Vaerah.4907:

You know why they aren’t easy to dodge? Because you can’t dodge what you don’t see and thieves appear on screen well after they landed their “next attack”.

This kind of stupidity also affected Warhammer Online, a “thief” of that game could open with a stun that lasted 2 seconds, and in those 2 seconds he could kill a squishie who would not completely go super-t*rd defense spec + full tank gear.
They’d also appear on screen almost at the time when the other guy died.
They were as fun as GW2 thieves to fight, and like them, if they would be countered they could just stealth away in peace.

Funny story, that’s not a thief problem. The whole “perma stealth thief” nonsense is actually a result of the player culling issue, which I’ve also had to deal with as a thief.

Vaerah.4907:

Poor kitty, they won’t attack if they don’t have the 100% safe retreat abilities full up.
How sad, when all the other classes beginning with warrior and necro can escape whenever things don’t go according to plan, eh? Oh wait, welcome to being like the other classes.

“But but but we are squisheeeeeeee”. Really? Tell me about squishie, I also play Elementalist, same health as yours and even full bunker spec, exotic cleric gear etc. I still get spam critted for 6.5k by yours truly.

You are waaaayyy too angry to be on the forums right now, lmao. My response to you got lost in a forum bug, so I’m gonna make this short and sweet. No player makes it a point to blow their utility skills before rushing into combat just for the ego boost, no players, I promise you. Secondly, I full out charge people in WvW all the time. The reaction is always either backpedaling or they begin to charge as well. More often than not, the player that charges me and initiates the combat before I do is the one with the highest odds of sending me running with my tail between my legs, figuratively speaking.

I play a Thief regularly when not using my Guardian in tPvP and hot-join. Even I know backstab is OP. I don’t even know why they nerfed pistol whip when this is worse, it’s safer to set up, you can save haste for stomps/res rather than your burst and it’s much harder to see coming.

The culling issue just makes it worse, but it’s not the root of the problem. This build was so powerful that they had to nerf basilisk venom because of it, what does that say about it? Now Moa is the only control effect you can’t break in the game (it should be changed), reasoning probably being that Mesmers or any class can’t insta-gib you like a thief would.

That being said if you have a reflexes like a cat and can dodge/break stun the combo, your chances of killing the thief is pretty good, as long as you survive the initial burst, all CDs are down, they are on the defensive. Another way to go about it is to stack more toughness, it’s more of a challenge to pull this off against some condition specs running Rabid amulet for this reason. You know why Cyric is crying about his HP vanishing from other sources? It’s because backstab builds are 100% glass cannons, of course anything that hurts will squat him.

That being said though, no matter how glass you go, 1-2 shotting just shouldn’t happen. Hell I still crit for 7-8k on bunker guardians with a signet’d backstab.. Definitely can’t solo them but I can ambush and leave them on the floor with a haste stomp after my teammate wears him down. Seriously though, know to admit when the class/spec you play is OP, balance is good for the game in the long run, this is far from the best build you can run as a thief too so I’m not sure why you’re stoically trying to defend it. Venomshare in tPvP is an absolute monster.

I will admit to giggling like a school girl when I one-shot someone though, I mean, I’ll enjoy it for the time being.

I’ve been on the recieving end of this a couple of times, you have to see the Thief comming or you’re dead, it’s lame imho but whatever ;p

It’s not about the Thief or any other profession. When the game was coming up, they advertised it as the best player-friendly game, and everything depent on the player skills. But we didn’t know they wanted us to show our gaming skills in fights that takes 5 seconds long.

What happens now is 1 to 10 seconds of PvP FIGHT that we were bored of from other mmo experiences. I do not want to kill somebody or die in 5 seconds. This is not PvP for me. I bought the game because I was bored of 5sec fights in #selfcensorship# online.

If you were really trying to have a meaningful discussion, you wouldn’t have spent texts on texts of telling the OP to L2P.

I actually gave him some feedback to go on seeing as I know how the scenario plays out on both sides of the equation. Every thief will bring out warriors as a case and point as to why they should be allowed such high burst. It is my opinion that Hundred Blades stationary or not, does far too much damage too. Thieves generally will also be biased as Warriors generally is (not saying always, but is a trend) a tougher match up for most thieves. High base HP and Toughness hurts when they can equally dish out the pain in melee.

That being said, there’s a good reason why you still see more thieves in tPvP than warriors as of now (even though most thieves will think warriors as OP). Superior roaming and dueling capabilities with the highest burst in the game (you can’t argue this at all).

There is a point to buff all other classes, but that also creates a power creep(look at GW1). A nerf is a slight buff for everyone at the expensive of one that will receive this negatively without having to resort to a power creep. Do I want to see more threatening builds from all classes? Yes, but that can only happen once the meta is less centralized on Mesmer, Guards and Thieves and after all the bugs have been washed off. If everyone got buffs and were on the same level as these three classes, PvP will be even more zergy than it is now.

Eh, thieves are fine, even when I have 3.470 tougness there are still thieves in WvW that can hit me for 6k with heartseeker and 8k basckstabs and they still have escape mechanics that put most other classes to shame. Nothing to see here, move along, coz 2 shotting ppl is what PVP is about (ofc you have to choose the right pro class and survive through the hellish learning curve to be that effective, that’s why you see so few of them), forget about focus target, debuffing and stuff, that’s for noobs with low damage.

I think the point most people are trying to make in this thread is that Thief’s damage needs to be toned down due to it having the only true OHKO combo in the game at present time. Decent thieves also know how to get the jump an opponent without the stealth skill. There is terrain to hide behind, players in WvWvW can become tunnel visioned… and yes there are people who are willing to blow most of their utility skills to initiate an attack to secure a kill even if it is purely for the ego boost that a virtual game gives them.

I’ve been killed a bunch by thieves in WvWvW on my necro, the only option I have is to use my reaper’s mark(fear) and my chillblains(chill and poison) if I see them near me and pretty much park myself on it until my mark is triggered then either run away in death shroud or jump into a tower. If I’ve just come from a fight I’m screwed since my condition removal skills are probably on cool-down and my minion(s) are usually dead.

Another problem that hasn’t been brought up yet is how mobile thieves can be. They can easily out maneuver and out run any class right now. It makes it virtually impossible to kill or escape from a thief.

I do agree thieves should be very very bursty and have high damage, but in their current state it’s virtually impossible to counter them (mostly due to the perma-stealth bug). Basilisk venom being breakable by stun-breaks was a good start but more things need to be done performance wise(the whole engine is very taxing on CPU and even higher end PCs can get bad performance issues and the game overall feels poorly optimized).

Lumines.3916:

If you were really trying to have a meaningful discussion, you wouldn’t have spent texts on texts of telling the OP to L2P.

I actually gave him some feedback to go on seeing as I know how the scenario plays out on both sides of the equation. Every thief will bring out warriors as a case and point as to why they should be allowed such high burst. It is my opinion that Hundred Blades stationary or not, does far too much damage too. Thieves generally will also be biased as Warriors generally is (not saying always, but is a trend) a tougher match up for most thieves. High base HP and Toughness hurts when they can equally dish out the pain in melee.

That being said, there’s a good reason why you still see more thieves in tPvP than warriors as of now (even though most thieves will think warriors as OP). Superior roaming and dueling capabilities with the highest burst in the game (you can’t argue this at all).

There is a point to buff all other classes, but that also creates a power creep(look at GW1). A nerf is a slight buff for everyone at the expensive of one that will receive this negatively without having to resort to a power creep. Do I want to see more threatening builds from all classes? Yes, but that can only happen once the meta is less centralized on Mesmer, Guards and Thieves and after all the bugs have been washed off. If everyone got buffs and were on the same level as these three classes, PvP will be even more zergy than it is now.

It wasn’t my intention to tell the OP to L2P, so I honestly apologize if that is the tone of my response. You make a lot of good and valid points that I really can’t argue with and, quite frankly, I have to agree with. Truth be told, I wouldn’t have an issue with our damage being nerfed to a more “manageable” level if our health pool was simultaneously buffed. At level 80 with zero vitality gear, our base health pool is 10k and some change. Our damage potential is the only thing that makes having such a pathetic health pool okay, in my opinion. Fact of the matter is, thieves probably will see a nerf regardless of the thief community’s protests. For me personally though, it’s simply the lack of a respectable health pool that justifies the damage.

Vakirauta.6397:

It’s not about the Thief or any other profession. When the game was coming up, they advertised it as the best player-friendly game, and everything depent on the player skills. But we didn’t know they wanted us to show our gaming skills in fights that takes 5 seconds long.

What happens now is 1 to 10 seconds of PvP FIGHT that we were bored of from other mmo experiences. I do not want to kill somebody or die in 5 seconds. This is not PvP for me. I bought the game because I was bored of 5sec fights in #selfcensorship# online.

Exactly.
I played a caster in that #selfcensorship# online game till I grew tired of being repeated for the 10000th time that no, my class was not meant to solo (in that game there’s no dedicated PvP area, you get out => you can be killed, so imagine how it’s fun to permanently must find a group) while many others could. Despite all sorts of buffs trinkets, defensive gear, defensive spec a “thief” would still instagib casters before their stun opener was over (no way to break it of course).
Other classes could deliver mass AoE melee damage totally outdoing “mages” and basically insta-gibbing whatever they came close to.

It’s time to end the era of these stupid games, people want to PLAY not to spend their time dead to the next 10000000000000 damage per second skill.

GW2 was advertised as e-sport, quality PvP.
Where’s quality when you die before the opponent renders?
Where’s quality when a class needs to use 20 skills and still not achieve what another can do by spamming 1?

@Cyric, I’m glad you’re less of a troll than I initially perceived you as. I think what the bigger community needs to understand about thieves in general is that yes, thieves hurt like kitten but kitten they’re also squishy (relatively and depends on spec). We also happen to melt under condition pressure extremely easy, just take a look at all the removals a thief can have, it’s very limited.

Stealth IS a defensive mechanism, but it does not stop incoming damage at all if others are smart about locating the position of the thief. Stealth is a diversion, it’s a visual confusion, the culling issues make it more deadly than it really is.

I’d be more than happy to have a toned down version of the thief burst if there were more answers to just “shortbow and wait for cds” in between our moments of glory. Right now, thieves have to play an extreme of hit-n-run style and make it count because chilling in the clusterkitten is asking to get killed. Once we have the tools to sustain better in a longer fight, doesn’t matter how hard our moves hurt, good thieves will kill you.

@Lumines.3916 What u say for thief about being squishy , it applyz same on ranger. Difference is that ranger cant go hide, hardy can run away and doesnt do dmg, at all. Soon only viable build for ranger will be dual fists “facepalm”. Dont get me wrong i like thiefs, i play one , but atm when i compare it to other classes it is OP.

kiranslee.4829:

@Lumines.3916 What u say for thief about being squishy , it applyz same on ranger. Difference is that ranger cant go hide, hardy can run away and doesnt do dmg, at all. Soon only viable build for ranger will be dual fists “facepalm”. Dont get me wrong i like thiefs, i play one , but atm when i compare it to other classes it is OP.

If you take a look at page 1, you’ll notice that I as a thief player, know that it’s quite OP too. The ranger by design was meant to stay at range(lol the name), but this isn’t always the case in more clumped maps in PvP. Their melee, well greatsword got nerfed to hell and back before the game even launched. Their Pet AI is hardly the best it can be and a lot of their weapons are very limited in their capabilities. There’s a good reason why shortbow was the norm and everyone raised torches with the monday patch.

That being said, I don’t have extensive first hand experience with a ranger, I only played one in beta and cannot comment much more on their situation. My first character and 80 was a Necromancer, so I know the pain of being left with limited weapon choices that perform at a mediocre level along with uninteresting traits.