Guild Wars 2

With the chain damage nerfs to thieves and no survivability changes we will fade out and be non existent. I used to play a build that allowed for tanky items to I wouldn’t die instantly in team fights. Then thief got balanced around casual play. So i had to build full glass to be able to do anything. With another consecutive nerf to damage but none to survivability the thief class will not be able to compete.

I feel that balancing around casual players and not pro’s is not a good way to make a game into an E-sport.

On of thee biggest if not the biggest E-sports is league of legends. They balance around the professionals. Why? Because the professionals take the classes to there limit. With a lot of skill you could already beat backstab thieves, with skill us pro players laughed at HSS spam. if pvp is catered to the casuals the Esport aspect will amount to about what World of Warcrafts esport is…non-existent. They catered to the casual and Esport died.

The thief class is one of the squishiest in the game and to top it off we have only 1 move that removes conditions and it only removes 3. It will now take longer to kill enemy….alot longer. Some are barely possible to kill (if at all * cough* guardian cough). The Thief Class needs to be more durable.

I’d say being an esport is a secondary objective to actually having players play your game. If the game being balanced for pros end up being a kitten experience for the majority of (casual) players, you can never be an esport anyway because no one will be interested in the game. More players but not an esport generates more revenue for a company than being an esport with only a few players if that is even at all possible, since no one is likely to sponsor an event with a small audience.

Zawaka.5170:

The thief class is one of the squishiest in the game and to top it off we have only 1 move that removes conditions and it only removes 3. It will now take longer to kill enemy….alot longer. Some are barely possible to kill (if at all * cough* guardian cough). The Thief Class needs to be more durable.

1. The thief is already able to be stupidly survivable by stealth, dodges and the lolShortbow. See Shadow Arts if the default perks aren’t enough.
2. The thief has one of the most powerful passive condition removals in the game- Shadow’s Embrace. Other classes have their passive condition removals at 10 seconds via signets. If thieves struggle with a multiple condition-stacking foe, that is actually good for the game as a counter to them exists (thinking Well necros that deny restealths).

Except, the problem is here bro. Guild wars 2 was made for… everyone. So this means casual players. They balance it so that they don’t complain. That’s their philosophy and it’ll also be the downfall of their once promising PvP.

If you want a game to grow into an e-sport, you first need a huge casual player base.

That being said, I don’t agree with the majority of your post about thiefs, and neither do I like the way in which Anet is taking this pvp… I doubt it will ever be as polished and deep as GW1 pvp was.

I would disagree with you OP. You state that League of Legends is balanced around professional players. It is not… What makes LoL so succesful, is the fact that it is so simple, free to play and easy to learn/pick up game. The professionals are the ones who take certain heroes and push em to the limit, which gets nerfed/buffed based on feedback.
Same thing goes for GW2, casuals are the ones who will support competitive play and eSport if they can play themselfs, enjoy the game and enjoy watching others play the game. So it should always be accesible and easy to play for casuals, where as the pro’s as you put it, can take it to the next level and push certain professions to their limits.

Keep in mind that LoL is closer to GW2 than WoW. Even tho though is an MMORPG, many pro players look at this as more of a MMO-Moba, due to no trinity and so forth.
I believe, catering to casuals is the smartest thing you can do, because a professional player, will always find a way to play the game or a profession to their highest level and push it to their limits to succeed and achieve stuff that a casual wont be able to do.
Look at lowell as an example, i play an engi and usually have no issues with thiefs, backstab etc – however, due to lowells skill and new approach at the profession, he outplays most bunkers, yes guardians included, because he pushes his class as far as it can go.

My 2 cents.

Grindhouse.3149:

I would disagree with you OP. You state that League of Legends is balanced around professional players. It is not… What makes LoL so succesful, is the fact that it is so simple, free to play and easy to learn/pick up game. The professionals are the ones who take certain heroes and push em to the limit, which gets nerfed/buffed based on feedback.
Same thing goes for GW2, casuals are the ones who will support competitive play and eSport if they can play themselfs, enjoy the game and enjoy watching others play the game. So it should always be accesible and easy to play for casuals, where as the pro’s as you put it, can take it to the next level and push certain professions to their limits.

Keep in mind that LoL is closer to GW2 than WoW. Even tho though is an MMORPG, many pro players look at this as more of a MMO-Moba, due to no trinity and so forth.
I believe, catering to casuals is the smartest thing you can do, because a professional player, will always find a way to play the game or a profession to their highest level and push it to their limits to succeed and achieve stuff that a casual wont be able to do.
Look at lowell as an example, i play an engi and usually have no issues with thiefs, backstab etc – however, due to lowells skill and new approach at the profession, he outplays most bunkers, yes guardians included, because he pushes his class as far as it can go.

My 2 cents.

Pretty much this at the end of the day any changes that have been implemented from the recent patch were to make PvP more enjoyable and alot more balanced then it was previously. I felt initially that the patch was poor however when I play Tpvp and even hot join now I find it alot more enjoyable with the option of 5v5 and not getting instagibed as often.

As Grindhouse has already said as well in order for GW2 to be successful as an E-sport yes rankings or laddering does need to be implemented for sure however the biggest problem is there was no real entry level pvp as hot join was a complete mess being strictly 8v8. the more people who enjoy GW2 pvp the larger community we’ll have, the larger community will also incentivise people to watch more of the higher end streamers and be generally insterested in high end pvp. so it’s all effected and at the end of the day i want everyone to have fun playing this game not only the top tier players.

The ironic thing behind this thread is that any balancing changes with casuals in mind will only translate to nerfs for the thief, because the casuals are also abusing this profession.

Hey, they aren’t destroyed, but I did finally destroy one. For the first time ever I think.

Thieves are still viable in tpvp.

Thieves still need a damage nerf.

Cyrkle.5814:

Thieves are still viable in tpvp.

The point is not if they’re viable or not ( they’re a lot less viable than beofore, at least as a roaming burst class), the point is that balanced builds got hit very hard by the nerfs, a lot more than the common noob glass cannon builds.

S/D builds got totally demolished, D/D balanced builds received a huge nerf ( and bunkers now look semi immortal to a thief), OH pistol build were never really viable, and a player skill won’t trump those deficits forever.

The only thing actually carrying the thief into tPvP is shortbow amazingness, nothing else.

Those nerfs made no sense, they fixed things needing addressing by totally killing them ( like dancing dagger , which needed a revision, not a smiter’s booning).

WhimsicalPacifist.2943:

Zawaka.5170:

The thief class is one of the squishiest in the game and to top it off we have only 1 move that removes conditions and it only removes 3. It will now take longer to kill enemy….alot longer. Some are barely possible to kill (if at all * cough* guardian cough). The Thief Class needs to be more durable.

1. The thief is already able to be stupidly survivable by stealth, dodges and the lolShortbow. See Shadow Arts if the default perks aren’t enough.
2. The thief has one of the most powerful passive condition removals in the game- Shadow’s Embrace. Other classes have their passive condition removals at 10 seconds via signets. If thieves struggle with a multiple condition-stacking foe, that is actually good for the game as a counter to them exists (thinking Well necros that deny restealths).

I guess you never did tPVP

Stealth wont save you in tPVP, it works only against low skilled players.

They nerfed all balanced and tPVP thief builds with CnD nerf, forcing everyone to go lol D/D 1 shot every 45 seconds which is piss easy to counter and useless in tPVP

Zawaka.5170:

On of thee biggest if not the biggest E-sports is league of legends. They balance around the professionals. Why? Because the professionals take the classes to there limit.

True.

However, GW2 has no elite players. Rank = grind atm. There’s no ELO ladder.

ilJumperMT.4871:

Stealth wont save you in tPVP, it works only against low skilled players.

Yeah. They really shouldnt have put those anti stealth goggles up for purchase from qualifying points.

I just got 3-shotted from a thief. A TRUE GLASS-CANON THIEF, so my teammate killed him afterwards easily. That’s what it is supposed to be – can do GREAT damage, but also takes hard punches straightly in the face.

Imho thieves balanced well for now, gj ANet, at least with this :P

Besides the fact that Thieves still destroy people just as much as they did before, if you’re failing at Thief now maybe you should follow the advice every Thief player gives to whoever complains about Thief:

L2P indeed
if you ask me thieves still hasnt been nerfed enough.

stealth and their initial burst are almost godmode in the hands of a skilled player

thanks god 99,99999% of the people rolling a thief are the polar opposite of skilled players

I have to say…i usually destroyed everything (But bunker specs) with S/D (Not that BS or HS spam crap) and now despite DD C&D and dazelock nerf…i still destroy a lot of people like before…maybe it’s me but i didn’t feel this update much…expec in tpvp

Hard life vs good players…carnage vs noobs…as usual and as it has to be….the more you learn to play your class and how other classes work the less you die. Simple

Everything looks op if you don’t know how to counter it

GankSinatra.2653:

ilJumperMT.4871:

Stealth wont save you in tPVP, it works only against low skilled players.

Yeah. They really shouldnt have put those anti stealth goggles up for purchase from qualifying points.

Its called AoE.

this patched forced thieves going either balisk venom burst or Death Blossom spam. nothing more

Zawaka.5170:

I feel that balancing around casual players and not pro’s is not a good way to make a game into an E-sport.

-snip-

Some are barely possible to kill (if at all * cough* guardian cough). The Thief Class needs to be more durable.

Many professional (paid) players in other games have started to call for balancing games to casuals, because games die when all the casuals quit after they get cheese gibbed.

Before this patch, I rarely saw more than 1-2 thieves in a tournament because bunkers are a hard counter to roamers. Since bunkers got nerfed/bug fixed more than thieves got nerfed/bugfixed, I have seen up to six out of ten thieves in a tournament, all doing quite well.

tl;dr? Thieves received a nerf to pubstomping, but a buff to competitive matches because of the harsher fixes to bunkers.

What I would like to see is some buffs to other abilities you see people rarely using to get people using them, and for build diversity. Currently you have everyone of the same class either run the same build or two different builds. And this goes strongly for thieves. Condition/Death Blossom spam is good, and Mug/C&D gimmick build is still good. Any other thief build is up in the air, and any other ability and it’s not just that way for thieves.

What’s up with these doom and gloom posts, seriously. Been playing a thief since release and after all the nerfs I still enjoy the class, even more after the latest changes. We are still insanely good, changes very minor at best.

HomelessMeh.4172:

What’s up with these doom and gloom posts, seriously. Been playing a thief since release and after all the nerfs I still enjoy the class, even more after the latest changes. We are still insanely good, changes very minor at best.

we’re talking about build diversity dude.

Going on always with the same 2-3 builds, always with the same weapon sets, is not healthy for the game.

Especially when anet decides to nerf bat balanced builds, polarizing all thieves into those very few viable builds.

Zawaka.5170:

On of thee biggest if not the biggest E-sports is league of legends. They balance around the professionals. Why? Because the professionals take the classes to there limit.

What? No they don’t. League has never been balanced for professional play. Riot tries to balance for both pro and casuals as well as possible, but they’ve never straight prioritized professionals over casuals for balance. Where did you even get that idea?

Zawaka.5170:

They balance around the professionals. Why? Because the professionals take the classes to there limit.

If they really prioritize high ranked players nabs would die as soon as they get outside bases and noone would go around (Zerging) with sh… like BS, HB, Haste HS and so on (Because those are some really crap specs and everyone with some exp can easily avoid them and strike back)…so…no…i don’t think they prioritize someone on others, you can only feel the difference between a r10 and a r30 40+ ….but it’s not a class or nerf/buff issue…

If THIS looks umbalanced to you just try a run in gw1 HA with a team that never went in…see what happens, probably you won’t pass the first zaish fight vs ai mobs, you’ll get pwned even before facing real players…and gw1 is a pvp balanced game…

I feel like this thread is a casual player that thinks he’s a pro player complaining about balance being made for casuals. The reason thieves were nerfed were BECAUSE the devs talk to the top teams. The best overall profession (imo) is guardian, and the top NA team had their guardian running a thief. What does that tell you? Thieves were just fixed so that they can’t effortlessly roll their face on a keyboard and kill everything from ranged with a melee build. Cloak and dagger is the only thing nerfed for the actual backstab spec, and something that makes you invisible on demand really shouldn’t be critting for 5-8k regularly. Top tier players were being instantly killed without being able to respond from time to time. That simply should not happen. They want to make this game a competitive battle between teams, not rock paper scissors on who gets the first hit.
(most of the statements presented factually are just my opinion from my experience)

Cuddle Time.4027:

I feel like this thread is a casual player that thinks he’s a pro player complaining about balance being made for casuals. The reason thieves were nerfed were BECAUSE the devs talk to the top teams. The best overall profession (imo) is guardian, and the top NA team had their guardian running a thief. What does that tell you? Thieves were just fixed so that they can’t effortlessly roll their face on a keyboard and kill everything from ranged with a melee build. Cloak and dagger is the only thing nerfed for the actual backstab spec, and something that makes you invisible on demand really shouldn’t be critting for 5-8k regularly. Top tier players were being instantly killed without being able to respond from time to time. That simply should not happen. They want to make this game a competitive battle between teams, not rock paper scissors on who gets the first hit.
(most of the statements presented factually are just my opinion from my experience)

Lol top players tell you thieves need surviblity buff they are a joke.

Lol has a hundred characters and there are some that are used mostly by the pro’s and others that seem to favour pub’s. This makes balancing a bit easier for them. They can balance some characters for nub use and others for pro. Gw2 does not have this luxury.

Imho balancing aroud 5v5 tpvp, played only by 1% of the player base is dumb in the extreme.

As to thieves, thieves are like Eve great for pubstomping but not used as much in pro ranks.

nerf was well warranted.

This is starting to sound like world of warcraft talk. I wouldn’t say their damage needs to be nerf down, but for those who have higher defense in pvp should not be affected by the burst damage at all. Those who are glass cannons spec should be affected by the burst damage because they have little defense or some.

No offense, but why would the class with the most escape abilities/possibilities in the game need more survivability? Your whole class evolves around hitting without being hit…I hate to play this card but perhaps you should just sit down, study your class and learn how to play it?
I am more worried about the changes to bunkers, since there really is no niche of builds/classes around that can counter the glass cannons any more. Bunkers filled a role, and so did glass cannons. With one of them more or less gone I shudder to think what the other one might be able to do..

Relentliss.2170:

Lol has a hundred characters and there are some that are used mostly by the pro’s and others that seem to favour pub’s. This makes balancing a bit easier for them. They can balance some characters for nub use and others for pro. Gw2 does not have this luxury.

The same thing could happen with builds in GW2 eventually. Problem is there is no “high skill cap” thief build that outshines the easy to play/solo friendly pub stomping builds in the hands of a good player.

Thieves are fairly high skillcap in some ways, but there isn’t a “pro build” that emphasizes the difficult aspects of the thief over the easy aspects. Since for now pros and noobs play the same build it’s impossible to balance them independently.

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

Agree 100% with you Sprawl

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

By that logic it takes less skill to survive a thief.

A thief has to use 3 buttons to kill you.
You have to have 1 defensive cooldown.

1 < 3

I like it.

Daays.4317:

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

By that logic it takes less skill to survive a thief.

A thief has to use 3 buttons to kill you.
You have to have 1 defensive cooldown.

1 < 3

I like it.

Really, 1 defensive cooldown is all it takes to kill a thief or get away from one? LOL you are the worlds worst gamer if thats all it takes for you to lose on a thief.

In reality 1 defensive cooldown followed by perfect skill rotations of multiple buttons weapons swaps utilities etc… and you might get away from a thief or kill one (perspective of a necro).

If you dont have a defensive cooldown you are dead.

Xom.9264:

Really, 1 defensive cooldown is all it takes to kill a thief or get away from one? LOL you are the worlds worst gamer if thats all it takes for you to lose on a thief.

In reality 1 defensive cooldown followed by perfect skill rotations of multiple buttons weapons swaps utilities etc… and you might get away from a thief or kill one (perspective of a necro).

If you dont have a defensive cooldown you are dead.

If you’re dying to a thief after they waste all their utility skills, their elite skill, and half their initiative bar, while you only used 1 ability, then by definition you’re a bad player.

I mean, he just used like….6 or 7 total abilities. You only need 1 to counter it!

Ez. Pz.

bad players killing worse players.

The insta-gib build has always been a joke, and now to nerf the instagibbings, the REAL competitive build the thief had (S/D) is totally destroyed, just like balanced/heavy pressure dps builds.

The thief now is not competitive as a burst class ( unless you go totally glass cannon, struggling a lot more in competive plays) the only way to go now is conditions.

Thanks aNet.

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

Why you cant compare them is because a game like Lol has an entire early game which directly affects how strong the ‘Thief’ will be. A carry doesnt start out being at full power, he starts out super weak and then earns his late game ownage by playing well. This isnt in GW2. It takes 5 minutes to make a thief at full strength, and you cannot counter OP heros by making their life hell early game.

A carry earns the right to press buttons and blow up people.
A thief just presses buttons and blows up people.

GankSinatra.2653:

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

Why you cant compare them is because a game like Lol has an entire early game which directly affects how strong the ‘Thief’ will be. A carry doesnt start out being at full power, he starts out super weak and then earns his late game ownage by playing well. This isnt in GW2. It takes 5 minutes to make a thief at full strength, and you cannot counter OP heros by making their life hell early game.

A carry earns the right to press buttons and blow up people.
A thief just presses buttons and blows up people.

Learning to play is the start.

i’m against nerfing to favour bads.

While i agree the thief was foundamentally broken from its foundations, people shoul really learn to slot that kitten stunbreaker ( most of the people whining about the thief is the same people saying the " why should i slot a stunbreaker for a single profession???" bullkitten).

I’ve never lost to an instagib thief, as a glass cannon build with TONS of escaping ability, if not when i was outplayed. Why can’t other people do the same ? Am i so skilled, or is whining people so bad ?

The answer is up to you.

Now the “whined” build is still able to instagib ( aka: the whining won’t end till the effectively learn to play) and all other balanced builds, which required A LOT MORE skill to be played, have their DPS cut in 2.
With S/D, they went even farer, by also halving the daze duration.

Now all thieves are FORCED to go glass cannon, making bad players to whine, and making tournament players to laugh ( because glass cannons thieves are ridicolously bad in tPvP).

Basically it’s “conditions or gtfo”.

Nice way to favour build diversity.

GankSinatra.2653:

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

Why you cant compare them is because a game like Lol has an entire early game which directly affects how strong the ‘Thief’ will be. A carry doesnt start out being at full power, he starts out super weak and then earns his late game ownage by playing well. This isnt in GW2. It takes 5 minutes to make a thief at full strength, and you cannot counter OP heros by making their life hell early game.

A carry earns the right to press buttons and blow up people.
A thief just presses buttons and blows up people.

And someone else presses buttons and lives.
And someone else presses buttons and does condition damage.
And someone else presses buttons and knocks someone back.

Two different games bud. Comparing the two, especially the way you’re doing it, is not a good idea.

Anyways, as more people stack protection and in general learn to play against a GC thief, the class will loose it’s strength.

This is GW2. You can play any class. You can swap to any comp before the game starts. You should be running a thief to hunt down their GC burst classes, as that’s what the thief is best at. You still do 20k damage to other GC’s.

Or you know…you can always just sit and wait till someone is at 75% before going in.

Xom.9264:

Daays.4317:

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

By that logic it takes less skill to survive a thief.

A thief has to use 3 buttons to kill you.
You have to have 1 defensive cooldown.

1 < 3

I like it.

Really, 1 defensive cooldown is all it takes to kill a thief or get away from one? LOL you are the worlds worst gamer if thats all it takes for you to lose on a thief.

In reality 1 defensive cooldown followed by perfect skill rotations of multiple buttons weapons swaps utilities etc… and you might get away from a thief or kill one (perspective of a necro).

If you dont have a defensive cooldown you are dead.

If you are a necro and you have staff and use scepter + dagger off hand and are still losing, you have a major problem buddy. I almost never die to thieves. AOE AOE AOE = win against most thieves. Always AOE with necro. If you wanna deal direct damage with something roll a warrior/thief.

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

Playing thief takes more skill then playing LoL

Anyway i have to say that i used to run S/D and after this update i can still run it, and i personally think that despite daze nerf and stuff it’s still way better that those stupid HS or BS specs all around… Sure i had to work on something after patch but right now it rules as usual, and for sure i can laugh at BS HS anyday, but yeah if you need something to kill nabs without putting effort into learning how to play a thief those burst are the way to go…until you find someone with a brain who negates your poor and predictable combo (Well HS isn’t a combo at all, just 22222..22) and facerolls you pretty easily

and….that scorpion wire with 1200 range is awesome xD

ilJumperMT.4871:

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

Playing thief takes more skill then playing LoL

if lol took no skill it wouldnt be one of the most popular pvp games

Sprawl.3891:

ilJumperMT.4871:

Sprawl.3891:

the fundamental flaw with thieves and why you can’t compare them to games like LoL is thief takes ZERO skill to put out massive damage. In games that are actually e-sports that balance around that, it takes high level skill to play the class at a high level (shocker) thus leaving casuals balanced since they can’t do the same thing the pros are doing. In GW2 it’s like push 3 buttons and insta-gib anyone that doesn’t have defensive CDs up. it’s dumb.

Playing thief takes more skill then playing LoL

if lol took no skill it wouldnt be one of the most popular pvp games

Sprawl, don’t generalize all Thief players as BS burst thieves.
It just shows ignorance on your side of the arguement.

I’m having a blast playing thief. Its still faceroll still OP eles and guardians are easier to kill now, seems like a thief buff overall to me.

I play condition thief at tournaments and I still own people, thieves are still viable.

SameHH.1048:

I play condition thief at tournaments and I still own people, thieves are still viable.

Power/crit thieves are not viable anymore.

Condi thief is viable and it will always be ( unless they nerf DB or sneak attack), but 1-1-5-1-1-5- or 3-3-3 is not very fun, really.