Guild Wars 2

choovanski.5462:

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

the real counter vs condi is not just cleansing, it’kittenting them w your 10k damage skill twice so they die in seconds.

like honestly. you don’t need to sustain condis eternally. just long enough to spit out your overtuned burst. burst meta is so out of control it’s just wait for a few CDs then 1 shot. securing kills is terribly easy.

condi issue exists in the minds of players who have never psychologically been able to move themselves out of the WoW mindset. they believe condis should be supplementary, and not an alternative primary damage type. unfortunately for them anet has decided they are going to be an alternative primary damage type. so these nerfs that all y’all who refuse to adapt demand, won’t come. you won’t get them. you’ll just get farmed again and again untill you L2P.

so like that’s it’s dude. those are your options.
. get farmed and cry on forums
. L2P

Dude… WoW mindset? You played this exact same game before the condition stacking buff didn’t you? When burns only did 700 at most and bleeds 100 at most? Only ever stacking duration, not intensifying like we have now with 12k a tick on 1 condition.

(not disagreeing with the rest)

the main goal of the condition stacking buff was to solve the issue of overriding conditions. so multiple condi players can effectively focus one target without overriding each others damage.

condi damage has always been able to kill. why else would builds like condi p/s engi, & the countless wvw condi builds have existed?

yes, condi damage has increased. yes it can be argued it’s too much. but you can’t argue that in a vacuum. power damage has seen just as much of a spike. both damage types are far too high imo.

its the ‘WoW mentality’ that has players tunnel visioning on condi damage. they qq about burn stacks & not 10k crits (we have 35k crits coming w PoF lol). it’s a joke really. i am unable to think of them as anything but scrubs.

I know condi damage has always been able to kill but thats not the context of our conversation is it?

Conditions have been overly tuned compared to the old DOT status / supplement damage role from THIS game, not WoW. (unless it’s a saying?)

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

the real counter vs condi is not just cleansing, it’kittenting them w your 10k damage skill twice so they die in seconds.

like honestly. you don’t need to sustain condis eternally. just long enough to spit out your overtuned burst. burst meta is so out of control it’s just wait for a few CDs then 1 shot. securing kills is terribly easy.

condi issue exists in the minds of players who have never psychologically been able to move themselves out of the WoW mindset. they believe condis should be supplementary, and not an alternative primary damage type. unfortunately for them anet has decided they are going to be an alternative primary damage type. so these nerfs that all y’all who refuse to adapt demand, won’t come. you won’t get them. you’ll just get farmed again and again untill you L2P.

so like that’s it’s dude. those are your options.
. get farmed and cry on forums
. L2P

Dude… WoW mindset? You played this exact same game before the condition stacking buff didn’t you? When burns only did 700 at most and bleeds 100 at most? Only ever stacking duration, not intensifying like we have now with 12k a tick on 1 condition.

(not disagreeing with the rest)

the main goal of the condition stacking buff was to solve the issue of overriding conditions. so multiple condi players can effectively focus one target without overriding each others damage.

condi damage has always been able to kill. why else would builds like condi p/s engi, & the countless wvw condi builds have existed?

yes, condi damage has increased. yes it can be argued it’s too much. but you can’t argue that in a vacuum. power damage has seen just as much of a spike. both damage types are far too high imo.

its the ‘WoW mentality’ that has players tunnel visioning on condi damage. they qq about burn stacks & not 10k crits (we have 35k crits coming w PoF lol). it’s a joke really. i am unable to think of them as anything but scrubs.

I know condi damage has always been able to kill but thats not the context of our conversation is it?

Conditions have been overly tuned compared to the old DOT status / supplement damage role from THIS game, not WoW. (unless it’s a saying?)

I don’t agree that condis were ever a supplementary damage type in gw2. we have gear with only condi stats, and pure condi weapons. furthermore builds like p/s engineer have historically been very strong 1v1 builds, and that’s a condi only build. it literally kills w only condi.
WvW has always had condi builds in roaming too. condi as your primary damage type for 1v1 has always been a viable choice (class depending), it just used to be terrible for focused damage from multiple people in one target.

so, while I do agree that condis can be seen as overtuned- I don’t think they’ve been overtuned from a supplementary role. I think condi has always been a primary damage type, and just like power damage has been blow out of proportion with all the power creep.

it’s yeah. burns are more scary now, but dang dude all the damage numbers are bigger now. it’s all more scary. it’s all borked power creep.

but still, a lot of defensive skills have been power creeped too. we have a lot more evades and condi clear than we did at launch. so while damage has ramped up, we have got more tools to avoid the damage. some classes, like warrior or necromancer can just build to be practically immune to condi damage. so beating condi builds is still very very doable, which should be self evident by the fact most of the strong builds are power builds. PoF further encourages power builds, with Holosmith SpellBreaker and the like (only scourge is condi and usable so far), oh and those 30k+ crits from dead eye. every cool.

so it’s like yeah, having a 2k burn tick sucks. but so does getting hit for 12k with one skill, then 6k with another, then 4k with the next. dying blows. but you can easily match, or even outperform condi bursts with bursts from power builds. I mean, regardless of condi or power damage people get sent into the ground in less than 5 seconds these days.

TLDR: condi has always been a primary damage type, and this whole game is a power creeped mess

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

Lol, so sad, so truth

Apolo.5942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

Lol, so sad, so truth

dw, just play deadeye & do 35k with one skill

#arenanetmastersofbalance

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

That’s the truth. During the demo weekend every time I died some insane number of burning was at the top of the list as to why.

May be they should cut burning damage to half and that would cut back on condi op.

Its kittenedly easy to tick for 5k with burning damage, not surprising given that fire damage was intended to stat duration, not damage.

Apolo.5942:

saerni.2584:

It’s not zero interaction. All the interaction happened when they activated their skills and you don’t avoid them.

Not sure what you mean by completely defensible either. If they are don’t doing anything they should be visible and attackable.

If we are to assume that the whole offensive interaction happened at the moment 0 and the damage is instead spread over the condition duration ending at say the moment 10.

Then that means that from moment 1 to moment 10 the condition bomber can play defensive.

In contrast, power classes have to play offensive from moment 0 to moment 10 and if they play defensive, then they are not doing damage.

Its too big of an advantage and it shows.

Not to mention that even if both classes where forced to keep up the offensive pressure, condi easily does comparable if not higher damage. I for one know that being fully offensive with the zerker condi build i used to tic as high as 8k per second, power cant reach 8k per second damage, nowhere near close to it.

But power builds have more upfront damage. So power classes would be able to play defensively after moment 4, because they would have killed you by then.

Razor.9872:

Apolo.5942:

saerni.2584:

It’s not zero interaction. All the interaction happened when they activated their skills and you don’t avoid them.

Not sure what you mean by completely defensible either. If they are don’t doing anything they should be visible and attackable.

If we are to assume that the whole offensive interaction happened at the moment 0 and the damage is instead spread over the condition duration ending at say the moment 10.

Then that means that from moment 1 to moment 10 the condition bomber can play defensive.

In contrast, power classes have to play offensive from moment 0 to moment 10 and if they play defensive, then they are not doing damage.

Its too big of an advantage and it shows.

Not to mention that even if both classes where forced to keep up the offensive pressure, condi easily does comparable if not higher damage. I for one know that being fully offensive with the zerker condi build i used to tic as high as 8k per second, power cant reach 8k per second damage, nowhere near close to it.

But power builds have more upfront damage. So power classes would be able to play defensively after moment 4, because they would have killed you by then.

Srry no, that was true before HoT, has not been true for a long while now.

One important thing to consider is the ease of application. Let’s pick your standard corruption Necro as an example. Your marks are unblockable, and because chances are you’re not fighting on point you are unlikely to get blinded in the process. You have Plague Sending, which will just automatically transfer condis on your next critical. There’s almost no way to play around this in a team fight. It’s hard to avoid putting any condis on the necro once they pop Shroud and enter the point fight.

Compare that to the Might Makes Right Strength-Defense-Discipline Wars that have been becoming more popular. While it is possible to be effective because you can dodge constantly, and those dodges deal good damage and are unblockable as well. However, blind is everywhere, so you run Berserker’s Stance for the Resistance. But wait, Necros can just constantly corrupt that boon during the team fight, making it rather ineffective (seems like Spellbreaker might help with this because of Revenge Counter) against a Necro that focuses the War. Let’s not also forget Thieves stealing boons as well. When the Warrior hits, it does great damage, but they have to fight for that damage. By comparison, the Necro has to work much less for that damage so long as they are avoiding being focused. Just place your Marks on point that are basically the same size as most points. Combine this with a Trap DH and you end up being better off just rotating to another point because the coordination required to counter isn’t often found in your average game.

Note, I’m saying that the design of Conquest is mostly to blame here, but even if that was changed, applying condi tends to be much easier than power based damage. Power attacks tend to have much more obvious animations. As much as I hate DH the animations on the bow are very obvious – it’s the low cast traps that are the main problem. Avoiding Marks basically comes down to having enough dodges and evades because blocking is worthless. Add a cap point into the mix and it’s basically free damage.

Either condi needs to remain easy to apply but deal lower damage, or be more difficult to apply and deal high damage.

choovanski.5462:

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

sephiroth.4217:

choovanski.5462:

the real counter vs condi is not just cleansing, it’kittenting them w your 10k damage skill twice so they die in seconds.

like honestly. you don’t need to sustain condis eternally. just long enough to spit out your overtuned burst. burst meta is so out of control it’s just wait for a few CDs then 1 shot. securing kills is terribly easy.

condi issue exists in the minds of players who have never psychologically been able to move themselves out of the WoW mindset. they believe condis should be supplementary, and not an alternative primary damage type. unfortunately for them anet has decided they are going to be an alternative primary damage type. so these nerfs that all y’all who refuse to adapt demand, won’t come. you won’t get them. you’ll just get farmed again and again untill you L2P.

so like that’s it’s dude. those are your options.
. get farmed and cry on forums
. L2P

Dude… WoW mindset? You played this exact same game before the condition stacking buff didn’t you? When burns only did 700 at most and bleeds 100 at most? Only ever stacking duration, not intensifying like we have now with 12k a tick on 1 condition.

(not disagreeing with the rest)

the main goal of the condition stacking buff was to solve the issue of overriding conditions. so multiple condi players can effectively focus one target without overriding each others damage.

condi damage has always been able to kill. why else would builds like condi p/s engi, & the countless wvw condi builds have existed?

yes, condi damage has increased. yes it can be argued it’s too much. but you can’t argue that in a vacuum. power damage has seen just as much of a spike. both damage types are far too high imo.

its the ‘WoW mentality’ that has players tunnel visioning on condi damage. they qq about burn stacks & not 10k crits (we have 35k crits coming w PoF lol). it’s a joke really. i am unable to think of them as anything but scrubs.

I know condi damage has always been able to kill but thats not the context of our conversation is it?

Conditions have been overly tuned compared to the old DOT status / supplement damage role from THIS game, not WoW. (unless it’s a saying?)

I don’t agree that condis were ever a supplementary damage type in gw2. we have gear with only condi stats, and pure condi weapons. furthermore builds like p/s engineer have historically been very strong 1v1 builds, and that’s a condi only build. it literally kills w only condi.
WvW has always had condi builds in roaming too. condi as your primary damage type for 1v1 has always been a viable choice (class depending), it just used to be terrible for focused damage from multiple people in one target.

so, while I do agree that condis can be seen as overtuned- I don’t think they’ve been overtuned from a supplementary role. I think condi has always been a primary damage type, and just like power damage has been blow out of proportion with all the power creep.

it’s yeah. burns are more scary now, but dang dude all the damage numbers are bigger now. it’s all more scary. it’s all borked power creep.

but still, a lot of defensive skills have been power creeped too. we have a lot more evades and condi clear than we did at launch. so while damage has ramped up, we have got more tools to avoid the damage. some classes, like warrior or necromancer can just build to be practically immune to condi damage. so beating condi builds is still very very doable, which should be self evident by the fact most of the strong builds are power builds. PoF further encourages power builds, with Holosmith SpellBreaker and the like (only scourge is condi and usable so far), oh and those 30k+ crits from dead eye. every cool.

so it’s like yeah, having a 2k burn tick sucks. but so does getting hit for 12k with one skill, then 6k with another, then 4k with the next. dying blows. but you can easily match, or even outperform condi bursts with bursts from power builds. I mean, regardless of condi or power damage people get sent into the ground in less than 5 seconds these days.

TLDR: condi has always been a primary damage type, and this whole game is a power creeped mess

I was only talking about the WoW comment…. I said that.

I have no issues with condi/power. To me, every class has a build that directly counters another.

choovanski.5462:

Apolo.5942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

Lol, so sad, so truth

dw, just play deadeye & do 35k with one skill

#arenanetmastersofbalance

If you die to a Deadeye in sPvP, you deserved it.

Shaogin.2679:

choovanski.5462:

Apolo.5942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Oh you guys don’t like condi?
Prepare yourselves for 9/22/2017.

Lol, so sad, so truth

dw, just play deadeye & do 35k with one skill

#arenanetmastersofbalance

If you die to a Deadeye in sPvP, you deserved it.

i would argue you deserve all your deaths lol. but you must agree, if deadeye catches you without a few cooldowns its GG (or so it seems after watching caed play it).

Apolo.5942:

Razor.9872:

Apolo.5942:

saerni.2584:

It’s not zero interaction. All the interaction happened when they activated their skills and you don’t avoid them.

Not sure what you mean by completely defensible either. If they are don’t doing anything they should be visible and attackable.

If we are to assume that the whole offensive interaction happened at the moment 0 and the damage is instead spread over the condition duration ending at say the moment 10.

Then that means that from moment 1 to moment 10 the condition bomber can play defensive.

In contrast, power classes have to play offensive from moment 0 to moment 10 and if they play defensive, then they are not doing damage.

Its too big of an advantage and it shows.

Not to mention that even if both classes where forced to keep up the offensive pressure, condi easily does comparable if not higher damage. I for one know that being fully offensive with the zerker condi build i used to tic as high as 8k per second, power cant reach 8k per second damage, nowhere near close to it.

But power builds have more upfront damage. So power classes would be able to play defensively after moment 4, because they would have killed you by then.

Srry no, that was true before HoT, has not been true for a long while now.

Same is true with your statement.

Why do you not cleanse?

See how stupid of a question that seem?

Now imagine how we look at your thread….yeah its stupid

You either run power or you run condi

Tf you want everyone running around being forced to play the same bs? Don’t like it find another game or adapt and keep moving like the rest of us

Not trying to play GW2 like its a brand new mmo in 2000 just cause you don’t like something

Lord Velar.1509:

Why do you not cleanse?

See how stupid of a question that seem?

Now imagine how we look at your thread….yeah its stupid

You either run power or you run condi

Tf you want everyone running around being forced to play the same bs? Don’t like it find another game or adapt and keep moving like the rest of us

Not trying to play GW2 like its a brand new mmo in 2000 just cause you don’t like something

Ok dude, let’s me break it down to you. On paper, yes if there is conditions, you cleanse them, then you’re good to go. Actuality, you can reapply those conditions so fast it doesn’t matter how many cleanses you have. Correct me if i’m wrong, cleanse goes from left to right. If your skill cleanses 3 conditions and your first 3 conditions are cripple, chill and blind. You didn’t really cleanse any of the damage conditions off of you. EXTREMELY INCONSISTENT. Another problem, Protection which reduces 33% incoming direct damage. My question is where is the condition version of it ?Where is the boon that reduce 33% incoming condition damage?
Weakness this only applies to direct damage. Where is the condition version of it?Where is the condition that make you 50% less condition damage? Even if you have resistant, it can be corrupted or stole, and not very accessible to all classes. How conditions work in general is extremely over tuned.

-Reaper player

geekilo.8512:

Lord Velar.1509:

Why do you not cleanse?

See how stupid of a question that seem?

Now imagine how we look at your thread….yeah its stupid

You either run power or you run condi

Tf you want everyone running around being forced to play the same bs? Don’t like it find another game or adapt and keep moving like the rest of us

Not trying to play GW2 like its a brand new mmo in 2000 just cause you don’t like something

Ok dude, let’s me break it down to you. On paper, yes if there is conditions, you cleanse them, then you’re good to go. Actuality, you can reapply those conditions so fast it doesn’t matter how many cleanses you have. Correct me if i’m wrong, cleanse goes from left to right. If your skill cleanses 3 conditions and your first 3 conditions are cripple, chill and blind. You didn’t really cleanse any of the damage conditions off of you. EXTREMELY INCONSISTENT. Another problem, Protection[/url] which reduces 33% incoming direct damage. My question is where is the condition version of it ?Where is the boon that reduce 33% incoming condition damage?
Weakness this only applies to direct damage. Where is the condition version of it?Where is the condition that make you 50% less condition damage? Even if you have resistant, it can be corrupted or stole, and not very accessible to all classes. How conditions work in general is extremely over tuned.

-Reaper player

Bolded

You are 100% absolutely right, There is no Boon that reduces 33% Condi damage.
See the Boon Resistance… reduces 100% Condi damage.

Most classes can’t 100% heal power damage faster than the application so why should they be able to 100% cleanse Condi damage Faster than the application?

Sly.9518:

geekilo.8512:

Lord Velar.1509:

Why do you not cleanse?

See how stupid of a question that seem?

Now imagine how we look at your thread….yeah its stupid

You either run power or you run condi

Tf you want everyone running around being forced to play the same bs? Don’t like it find another game or adapt and keep moving like the rest of us

Not trying to play GW2 like its a brand new mmo in 2000 just cause you don’t like something

Ok dude, let’s me break it down to you. On paper, yes if there is conditions, you cleanse them, then you’re good to go. Actuality, you can reapply those conditions so fast it doesn’t matter how many cleanses you have. Correct me if i’m wrong, cleanse goes from left to right. If your skill cleanses 3 conditions and your first 3 conditions are cripple, chill and blind. You didn’t really cleanse any of the damage conditions off of you. EXTREMELY INCONSISTENT. Another problem, Protection[/url] which reduces 33% incoming direct damage. My question is where is the condition version of it ?Where is the boon that reduce 33% incoming condition damage?
Weakness this only applies to direct damage. Where is the condition version of it?Where is the condition that make you 50% less condition damage? Even if you have resistant, it can be corrupted or stole, and not very accessible to all classes. How conditions work in general is extremely over tuned.

-Reaper player

Bolded

You are 100% absolutely right, There is no Boon that reduces 33% Condi damage.
See the Boon Resistance… reduces 100% Condi damage.

Most classes can’t 100% heal power damage faster than the application so why should they be able to 100% cleanse Condi damage Faster than the application?

Just saying i think healing is a counter to both power and condition build. I am not sure if you’re aware of this but power is supposed to be burst and condition is supposed to be DoT ( damage over time). Right now, condition build can burst people down faster than power build when it supposed to be DOT. Another thing, with power build, you need power, precision and ferocity to make it work, but with condition build, you just need 2 condition damage, and precision or condition duration ( depends on your class) then you can dump the rest into defensive stats. With power build, you need to go through protection and weakness which most classes have them. With condition build, is there anything to stop you? Is there a boon that reduce -33% incoming condition damage or a condition make you deal -50% condition damage? I don’t think so.
Resistance yeah it’s 100% condition damage reduction, but really look at it how many class have reliable on demand access to Resistance. I won’t discuss warrior they have plenty of resistances.
Guardian- Save Yourself it’s 1.5s of resistance, condition ticks once per sec, so basically they are immune from condition for 1 sec.
Rev – Pain Absorption you can potential get up to 7s of resistance, and 1 sec for allies. As a Reaper, let’s me tell you, i can corrupt 6 boons by enter shroud and shroud #2. It’s funny when they think they can run Mallyx Rev to counter condition.
P.S. I don’t talk about other classes because those are condition conversion, chill is required, 2 seconds of resistance.

I am not saying condition build should not do damage. I am saying right now condition build is far superior than other builds. There isn’t any check points like they have for power build (protection and weakness). Only require 2 stats instead of 3 like power build. Condition needed some changes.

DoT’s are fine when it’s well balanced like it is on Necromancer.

I don’t like low risk high reward philosophy that was introduced when conditions were changed from duration stacking to intensity stacking.

Condi got so strong that they had to buff my thief damage just to try and compete, which is silly, because power builds coordinating spikes was already good at launch.

I much preferred when condi was supplemental damage and you only had 1 condi build per team, because you couldn’t stack it.

Combat was much more engaging when you’d have to keep an on when Mesmers and Thieve’s would go into stealth then start giving up positioning as a squishy class and let your bunker Guardian hold point.

It was a good time when there were more well defined roles. Now too many things can do too much. Depending on what the tuning is, It’s either everything is a “brawler” archetype and doesn’t die, or everything is a “brawler” archetype and dies too fast. Then you have thief and mesmer as their mobility role of either speed or portal.

I’d be nice to get back to a place where we have frontline, midline, and backline again. For too long it’s just been midline and backline, because there’s no proper tradeoff of soaking damage for dealing less of it.

I play DH and have Smite Conditions (+SC on the heal) and F2 and I don’t find hard to fight in team fights or 1v1 against a condi build.

You have to play in a different way if you face a Power or a Condition build.

Condition Don’t have lesser things that counter it than Power.
Power is countered by weakness, protection and direct damage immunity, Condition is countered by Tons condi clean (you can clean conditions AoE and even using combo fields)and Resistance. There’s also Sigils that clean/send-back conditions and Runes that reduce the Condition Duration (basicly, they’re damage). There’s also different traits that clean conditions.
Resistance reduce condiiton Damage and Effects by 100%. Can be corrupted but how much classes corrupt/remove boons? Only necros and maybe thiefs that steal boons.
Also Protection can be Corrupted and Weakness can be cleaned.
Your argument is not totally right.

Conditions are cleaned Not Right-to-Left but in the order of the last applicated. If the enemy spam torment on you and you active a condi clean the first condition cleaned will be the last applied to you: the torment.

There’s classes able to fight conditions better than other classes. A good elementalist in a teamfight will never let his allies die of conditions, the same for a Druid.
But Solo/DuoQ make players more selfish and sometimes you find eles and druids that don’t care and let you die of conditions.

A single elementalist make a full condi team Totally Useless.

Conditions was reworked to make them able to kill you but Power is still better.
Higher is your rank lesser condition builds you find.
Thieves at higher rank play Power because condi is easly countered, the same for Warrior and Guardian. Necros play 50/50 condi or power because there’s not really a build that is better than the other for them (I like more the condi build for reapers but I played also the Power one and a good player will do great things with that build).
Even mesmers play 50/50 at high ranks, chosing between slower damage but more survavibility (condi) or an Insane Burst but more squishy (power).

Condition builds are really strong only at low ranks, at mid ranks are already weaker than Power and at high ranks only few condi builds are good enough to be played.

Silv.9207:

Condition Don’t have lesser things that counter it than Power.
Power is countered by weakness, protection and direct damage immunity, Condition is countered by Tons condi clean (you can clean conditions AoE and even using combo fields)and Resistance. There’s also Sigils that clean/send-back conditions and Runes that reduce the Condition Duration (basicly, they’re damage).

Im sorry. Your logic doesn’t make any sense right here for me. Your first sentence you stated condition build doesn’t have less counter than power build. In your 2nd sentence, you stated power have 3 counters, then you stated there are 2 counters to condi… My question is why do you have to specifically spec your build against condi build when you never have to do that aganist power build?

Silv.9207:

Resistance reduce condiiton Damage and Effects by 100%. Can be corrupted but how much classes corrupt/remove boons? Only necros and maybe thiefs that steal boons.

You’re a DH, DH meta build doesn’t even use Save Yourself, which is the only reliable on demand resistance that guardian have. Why are you even considering Resistance as a way to counter condi ? Your build literally relied on condi cleanse as its only way to counter condi.

Silv.9207:

Conditions are cleaned Not Right-to-Left but in the order of the last applicated. If the enemy spam torment on you and you active a condi clean the first condition cleaned will be the last applied to you: the torment.

My apology for not knowing how condi cleanse work. If you fight a condi rev (mace/axe) they don’t just pump out torment, they also pump out burn, poison, chill and confusion. That’s 1v1. Now image if he paired with a tempest, that pumps out random cripple, inmo, and vul. It doesn’t matter how many condi cleanse u have, those condi can reapply way faster than your cleanse CD. What i’m trying to tell u since that last 2 posts is maybe there should be a boon or condition that partly reduce the incoming condition damage. Not just you either have all the condi or you don’t

Silv.9207:

Condition builds are really strong only at low ranks, at mid ranks are already weaker than Power and at high ranks only few condi builds are good enough to be played.

On previous seasons, I’m sitting around mid plat. Let’s me telling u, condi is kittening everywhere

geekilo.8512:

Im sorry. Your logic doesn’t make any sense right here for me. Your first sentence you stated condition build doesn’t have less counter than power build. In your 2nd sentence, you stated power have 3 counters, then you stated there are 2 counters to condi… My question is why do you have to specifically spec your build against condi build when you never have to do that aganist power build?

You’re a DH, DH meta build doesn’t even use Save Yourself, which is the only reliable on demand resistance that guardian have. Why are you even considering Resistance as a way to counter condi ? Your build literally relied on condi cleanse as its only way to counter condi.

My apology for not knowing how condi cleanse work. If you fight a condi rev (mace/axe) they don’t just pump out torment, they also pump out burn, poison, chill and confusion. That’s 1v1. Now image if he paired with a tempest, that pumps out random cripple, inmo, and vul. It doesn’t matter how many condi cleanse u have, those condi can reapply way faster than your cleanse CD. What i’m trying to tell u since that last 2 posts is maybe there should be a boon or condition that partly reduce the incoming condition damage. Not just you either have all the condi or you don’t

On previous seasons, I’m sitting around mid plat. Let’s me telling u, condi is kittening everywhere

You’re right, i was not good enough to explain myself. The point is that you can clean conditions also standing near a elementalist or someone that spam condi clean all the time. obtain a condi clean is easier than obtain protection.
In number of how much ways there’s to counter Power, maybe condi win, but if you look to how Much ways there’s to clean conditions power win at 100%.
How many Protection skills you run? How many Protection you find spammed by someone?

I didn’t spec my build to fight condition Damage but to fight Conditions. There’s more than only damaging conditions on this game, don’t you know?
Fight a pew pew ranger without a condi clean and he will kill you with Power burst without mercy while you’re perma-immobilized. It’s a condition and I can clean it.
Different classes spam Vulnerability, Weakness, Chill, even Slow. I want to fight them and to do that I need condi clean skills.
That condi clean ability also counter condiiton builds and that’s good. But not all my skills are to counter conditions, only few of them.

About Resistance, is an example of how you can make condition builds totally useless and kill them easy. I told you that I don’t need Resistance, I have already 3 skills to clean conditions and that’s enough to kill every single condi build I face and fight in team fights.
Then, you can’t pretend to never be killed by conditions. Condition is a source of damage able to kill you and you can’t and don’t have to be able to totally ignore condition damage, Unless you’re a elementalist or a warrior. If you hate conditions so much, play that two classes in the right way and you’ll never lose again against a condi build.

I fought necros, condi reve and more or less every condi builds in this game. What’s the problem? They spam conditions? Clean conditions when they use they’re condi bombo comdo and then kill them as you do for every other build. Keep your cleans for the right moment, dodge/block/x they’re condition skills and burst them down.
Revenants can smap a large amount of conditions, that’s true, but I never had problems to kill them, not when I play my funny guardian burn build and (expecially) not when I play my Power meditrapper build. Revenant mallys is just bad. If you lose against one of them there’s something you have to learn or some changes to do in your build.
You can’t also pretend to play alone. If there’s an ele or a necro in your team that clean/steal conditions from you you don’t have to worry. The same way the enemy ele spam useless conditions to make your condi clean work bad your ele can clean the conditions you’re unable to clean.
Necros can spam different conditions, but you can evade they’re strong condi bomb easy. dodge they’re RS5+4 combo and try to don’t spam too much boons. They will be unable to inflict too much damage and you will kill them easy.

“What i’m trying to tell u since that last 2 posts is maybe there should be a boon or condition that partly reduce the incoming condition damage. Not just you either have all the condi or you don’t”
RESISTANCE! 100% condition damage AND effect reduction.
Isn’t that what you’re looking for?
There’s also a rune that reduce condition duration by 25%, reducing also the overall damage of that condition by 25% (and make harder for the enemy to stack conditions on you).
Purging Flames reduce incoming condition duration by 33% for every allies in the area. Not so much played but it’s a good skill.
There’s traits, sigils, runes, skills that reduce condition damage.

Even in Platinum there’s condition builds, that’s shure. But I see much more Power builds on high tiers.
You can’t pretend to remove condition builds from the game or from every rank level. Condition damage is a source of damage able to kill you and there’s a lot of ways to counter it. Just use that tons of way to clean or counter conditions and kill every single condi build you face.

On the condi arms race:

• Anet wants to make condi viable
• they add more cover condi, more stacks, more frequent condi application
• other builds need to run more cleanse + resist to compete
• cycle continues for a few balance patches
• only builds with lots of condi spam and/or lots of cleanse + resist are viable.

The only way out of this cycle is to cut back on both condi application AND condi cleanse in one balance patch. That’s a tall order, and I don’t think it’ll ever happen.

Edit: also, I think the power burst from PoF will be so ridiculously high, everyone will forget about this in a few months.

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

Lord Velar.1509:

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

Thank you for explaining the basics of the game. I learned these six month after I played the game. I do not care how many cleanses you have, if I am playing condi Rev with support and cover, I will just spam the point with AOE condi until I burn you down. There is no counter. This is not condi Rev exclusive either.

Silv.9207:

geekilo.8512:

Im sorry. Your logic doesn’t make any sense right here for me. Your first sentence you stated condition build doesn’t have less counter than power build. In your 2nd sentence, you stated power have 3 counters, then you stated there are 2 counters to condi… My question is why do you have to specifically spec your build against condi build when you never have to do that aganist power build?

You’re a DH, DH meta build doesn’t even use Save Yourself, which is the only reliable on demand resistance that guardian have. Why are you even considering Resistance as a way to counter condi ? Your build literally relied on condi cleanse as its only way to counter condi.

My apology for not knowing how condi cleanse work. If you fight a condi rev (mace/axe) they don’t just pump out torment, they also pump out burn, poison, chill and confusion. That’s 1v1. Now image if he paired with a tempest, that pumps out random cripple, inmo, and vul. It doesn’t matter how many condi cleanse u have, those condi can reapply way faster than your cleanse CD. What i’m trying to tell u since that last 2 posts is maybe there should be a boon or condition that partly reduce the incoming condition damage. Not just you either have all the condi or you don’t

On previous seasons, I’m sitting around mid plat. Let’s me telling u, condi is kittening everywhere

You’re right, i was not good enough to explain myself. The point is that you can clean conditions also standing near a elementalist or someone that spam condi clean all the time. obtain a condi clean is easier than obtain protection.
In number of how much ways there’s to counter Power, maybe condi win, but if you look to how Much ways there’s to clean conditions power win at 100%.
How many Protection skills you run? How many Protection you find spammed by someone?

I didn’t spec my build to fight condition Damage but to fight Conditions. There’s more than only damaging conditions on this game, don’t you know?
Fight a pew pew ranger without a condi clean and he will kill you with Power burst without mercy while you’re perma-immobilized. It’s a condition and I can clean it.
Different classes spam Vulnerability, Weakness, Chill, even Slow. I want to fight them and to do that I need condi clean skills.
That condi clean ability also counter condiiton builds and that’s good. But not all my skills are to counter conditions, only few of them.

About Resistance, is an example of how you can make condition builds totally useless and kill them easy. I told you that I don’t need Resistance, I have already 3 skills to clean conditions and that’s enough to kill every single condi build I face and fight in team fights.
Then, you can’t pretend to never be killed by conditions. Condition is a source of damage able to kill you and you can’t and don’t have to be able to totally ignore condition damage, Unless you’re a elementalist or a warrior. If you hate conditions so much, play that two classes in the right way and you’ll never lose again against a condi build.

I fought necros, condi reve and more or less every condi builds in this game. What’s the problem? They spam conditions? Clean conditions when they use they’re condi bombo comdo and then kill them as you do for every other build. Keep your cleans for the right moment, dodge/block/x they’re condition skills and burst them down.
Revenants can smap a large amount of conditions, that’s true, but I never had problems to kill them, not when I play my funny guardian burn build and (expecially) not when I play my Power meditrapper build. Revenant mallys is just bad. If you lose against one of them there’s something you have to learn or some changes to do in your build.
You can’t also pretend to play alone. If there’s an ele or a necro in your team that clean/steal conditions from you you don’t have to worry. The same way the enemy ele spam useless conditions to make your condi clean work bad your ele can clean the conditions you’re unable to clean.
Necros can spam different conditions, but you can evade they’re strong condi bomb easy. dodge they’re RS5+4 combo and try to don’t spam too much boons. They will be unable to inflict too much damage and you will kill them easy.

“What i’m trying to tell u since that last 2 posts is maybe there should be a boon or condition that partly reduce the incoming condition damage. Not just you either have all the condi or you don’t”
RESISTANCE! 100% condition damage AND effect reduction.
Isn’t that what you’re looking for?
There’s also a rune that reduce condition duration by 25%, reducing also the overall damage of that condition by 25% (and make harder for the enemy to stack conditions on you).
Purging Flames reduce incoming condition duration by 33% for every allies in the area. Not so much played but it’s a good skill.
There’s traits, sigils, runes, skills that reduce condition damage.

Even in Platinum there’s condition builds, that’s shure. But I see much more Power builds on high tiers.
You can’t pretend to remove condition builds from the game or from every rank level. Condition damage is a source of damage able to kill you and there’s a lot of ways to counter it. Just use that tons of way to clean or counter conditions and kill every single condi build you face.

I never say flat out remove condition builds from the game.I say there is should be more way for you to deal with conditions other than just flat out cleanse it
When i talk about Resistance, i’m talking how accessible is it to other classes. As up right now, only heavy armor classes have on RELIABLE ON DEMAND resistance. Middle and Light classes DO NOT have reliable on demand resistance. I’m not talking about what resistance does.

otto.5684:

Lord Velar.1509:

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

Thank you for explaining the basics of the game. I learned these six month after I played the game. I do not care how many cleanses you have, if I am playing condi Rev with support and cover, I will just spam the point with AOE condi until I burn you down. There is no counter. This is not condi Rev exclusive either.

condi rev is very weak against cc. so any warrior who can actually play will just be able to dumpster you while laughing at your condis.

Lord Velar.1509:

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

OMG, if u have these conditions in the following order: chill, blind, 7 stack of torment, vul and 20 stack of bleeds. You use a skill that cleanse 3 conditions, i will cleanse chill, blind and 7 stacks of torment, not the 20 stack of bleeds. You can not cleanse a specific stack….

geekilo.8512:

I never say flat out remove condition builds from the game.I say there is should be more way for you to deal with conditions other than just flat out cleanse it
When i talk about Resistance, i’m talking how accessible is it to other classes. As up right now, only heavy armor classes have on RELIABLE ON DEMAND resistance. Middle and Light classes DO NOT have reliable on demand resistance. I’m not talking about what resistance does.

Condi and Power are both viable right now.

If you give more reliable cleanses + resistance, condi classes will just get more condi spam to compensate.

geekilo.8512:

Lord Velar.1509:

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

OMG, if u have these conditions in the following order: chill, blind, 7 stack of torment, vul and 20 stack of bleeds. You use a skill that cleanse 3 conditions, i will cleanse chill, blind and 7 stacks of torment, not the 20 stack of bleeds. You can not cleanse a specific stack….

As conditions are applied exactly how they read vertically down a skill , if on tooltip, then traits/on-hit ;the only problem I see with your explanation of LIFO is there is no class that would apply conditions in that specific order. The likelihood is you will catch 1 or 2 damage conditions if you use a skill that cleanses 3.

Sigmoid.7082:

geekilo.8512:

Lord Velar.1509:

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

OMG, if u have these conditions in the following order: chill, blind, 7 stack of torment, vul and 20 stack of bleeds. You use a skill that cleanse 3 conditions, i will cleanse chill, blind and 7 stacks of torment, not the 20 stack of bleeds. You can not cleanse a specific stack….

As conditions are applied exactly how they read vertically down a skill , if on tooltip, then traits/on-hit ;the only problem I see with your explanation of LIFO is there is no class that would apply conditions in that specific order. The likelihood is you will catch 1 or 2 damage conditions if you use a skill that cleanses 3.

I’m trying to tell him you can’t use a cleanse skill to cleanse a specific stack. That was just an example.

I guess we all need more cleanses. But then condi builds won’t be as effective so they’ll have to add more condies and covers. Rinse and repeat.

Remark: there is much more runes/sigils/traits/skills applying/enhencing condies than there is for cleansing. Fortunately we have Superior Rune of Water which has 25% chance removing a condi when hit every 30s. That’s the way it is, you’re supposed to die to condies. All comes to which side can time and cleanse the most efficiently while pressuring. The only issue is inbuilt defensive mechanism which also applies several condies at once, when the pressure is one-sided. But then, you should avoid 1v1 those kinds of builds if you can’t handle it.

Overall, it’s a team effort. Guard light fields are useful, yet so few people blast through it. Everyone should run a way to group cleanse. Even a thief can support by blasting some fields. But in soloq I find people don’t use teammates ‘skills enough. Best matches are when your team pays as much attention at teammates doings as ennemy team. That’s what I’m trying to do anyway. Learning to better sync with the team. It’s still hard in the heat of action and aoe spam, but it’s what differenciates a pro player from the everyday average player I suppose.

geekilo.8512:

I never say flat out remove condition builds from the game.I say there is should be more way for you to deal with conditions other than just flat out cleanse it
When i talk about Resistance, i’m talking how accessible is it to other classes. As up right now, only heavy armor classes have on RELIABLE ON DEMAND resistance. Middle and Light classes DO NOT have reliable on demand resistance. I’m not talking about what resistance does.

Add ways to deal with conditions and they will be removed from the game.
If you have a single elementalist in your team, only one, you’ll Never lose a team fight against a condi team. Never.
Druids can clean conditions all the time while in Celestial Avatar and the Signet of Renewal make his pet to take ALL the conditions from every ally. Necromancers can manage conditions stealing them from allies and redicrect the condi spam to the enemy. Play with one of that classes near you and you’ll never suffer from conditions. If you’re a team. The game is based on a Team Balance and you can’t pretend to survive to something that can kill you only because you don’t want to. Eles can make a condition class totally useless spamming AoE condi clean all the time and becoming barely immune to conditions (Diamond Skin clean a condition every second when struck, more than enough to make him unkillable for a condi build, expecially because have tons of other condi clean traits and skills).

You may not have Resistance but a Lot of classes have a Lot of ways to clean or manage conditions.
A warrior that die against a condition build have to be really weak because can spam Resistance.
Thief clean a condition every time he dodge a skill, removing at the same time every movement imparring condition.
Engineer have the Gyro that clean 2 conditions every 3 seconds and the elixir C to convert all the conditions into boons. And the engi is notoriously a class weak against conditions.
Mesmer can clean conditions (1 to 3) every time they active a shatter skill.
Guardian clean conditions with Smite Condition (plus SC on heal), F2 and eventually every time block a hit (1 x second).

Every class can fight conditions in his way.
Some classes or builds fight condition better, other with more problems, some do great for themselves and other clean/steal conditions AoE.

If you increase the ways to fight conditions you have to increase the ways condition works.

A real way to fix condi spam is to reduce both condition spam and condi clean/resistance/send-back amount.
If I actually play condition I have a perfect chance to kill easy everyone that have only few condi clean/xxxx ability but can’t kill classes with huge condi clean/xxx ability.

The sPvP game is balanced around a balanced team. If you don’t have a chance to make a balanced team because you can only play in 1-2queue is another problem.

between a team with an ele and a team without an ele the first win at 90% because the ele is the best choice to clean conditions, suport allies and CC enemies, all at the same time. If you don’t have someone to clean your weakness, vulnerability and immobilize you’re already doomed to lose. Even more if no one can help you to fight conditions.
But the game is balanced thinking that you Have a Support class/build able to do that.

The game is well balanced and Condition damage is not so strong as everyone scream around. Not in a real team with someone able to clean conditions and support his allies.

Look to metabattle, for example: how many Condition builds do you see?
In the “Meta” there’s 6 Power based builds and 2 Condition based builds.
In the “Great” there’s 3 Power and 2 Condi
In the “Good” theres 9 Power, 7 condi and 1 bunker

Lower you go more conditions there are. Higher you go more Power there are.
Don’t you think that that mean something?
There’s a lot of Condition builds but they’re Bad if compared to Power builds.

Metabattle is not the perfection but it’s good to know what is one of the best ways to play a class. And a good example to show you what source of damage is better.

@Silv is right. when i queue up on my DH with my pal on Druid we just laugh at condis. we both have self clears, & we can clear each other’s condis & heal each other too.
like what can condi builds do vs a DH + Druid duo. what is actually the plan? we both have a ton of burst power damage & cc, so we can lock down & insta kill anything we like.

condis shine in 1v1 fights, but fall off in teamfights & 2v2s.
hence why the condi builds that are good (in actual teams not in solo queue headless chicken clown fiesta) fall into two categories: dualist, or ‘my class has a ton of utility but my power builds sucks so i guess i’ve got to play condi’.
our two dualists in recent meta have been s/d carrion thief (seen this in tournaments, & its p good) & condi warrior (has been practically nerfed out of meta now lol). both are good at 1v1 against a lot of classes, but really fall off in team fights where the tempest is in action.
mesmer & necromancer both have excellent utility that makes them high value picks, but their power builds just aren’t that good- so they have to play condi. for necro sometimes power is good, but since their main value is boonrip it synergises better with a hybrid stat amulet(for RS cleave) & a condi focused build. power mesmer is too easily farmed to be a good pick, but portal & moa are must haves, so the only choice is condi.

====

sure, condi can be strong in a solo que clown fiesta, even more so in low ranks where players dont know how to support each other. but dude, you cant balance a 5v5 team game around players who dont play as a team. like, thats just dumb dude. because if players do play as a team they will then become OP af because they will break balance.

also LOL at the PoF fear mongering. sure scourge did a lot of condi damage, holosmith is just as bonkers & its a power spec. the rest of the new ‘classes’ are either power, or plain old terrible. i guess you can complain about that firebrand mantra build, but thats just putting your hand up & yelling “im bad at the game”.

Silv.9207:

geekilo.8512:

I never say flat out remove condition builds from the game.I say there is should be more way for you to deal with conditions other than just flat out cleanse it
When i talk about Resistance, i’m talking how accessible is it to other classes. As up right now, only heavy armor classes have on RELIABLE ON DEMAND resistance. Middle and Light classes DO NOT have reliable on demand resistance. I’m not talking about what resistance does.

Add ways to deal with conditions and they will be removed from the game.
If you have a single elementalist in your team, only one, you’ll Never lose a team fight against a condi team. Never.
Druids can clean conditions all the time while in Celestial Avatar and the Signet of Renewal make his pet to take ALL the conditions from every ally. Necromancers can manage conditions stealing them from allies and redicrect the condi spam to the enemy. Play with one of that classes near you and you’ll never suffer from conditions. If you’re a team. The game is based on a Team Balance and you can’t pretend to survive to something that can kill you only because you don’t want to. Eles can make a condition class totally useless spamming AoE condi clean all the time and becoming barely immune to conditions (Diamond Skin clean a condition every second when struck, more than enough to make him unkillable for a condi build, expecially because have tons of other condi clean traits and skills).

You may not have Resistance but a Lot of classes have a Lot of ways to clean or manage conditions.
A warrior that die against a condition build have to be really weak because can spam Resistance.
Thief clean a condition every time he dodge a skill, removing at the same time every movement imparring condition.
Engineer have the Gyro that clean 2 conditions every 3 seconds and the elixir C to convert all the conditions into boons. And the engi is notoriously a class weak against conditions.
Mesmer can clean conditions (1 to 3) every time they active a shatter skill.
Guardian clean conditions with Smite Condition (plus SC on heal), F2 and eventually every time block a hit (1 x second).

Every class can fight conditions in his way.
Some classes or builds fight condition better, other with more problems, some do great for themselves and other clean/steal conditions AoE.

If you increase the ways to fight conditions you have to increase the ways condition works.

A real way to fix condi spam is to reduce both condition spam and condi clean/resistance/send-back amount.
If I actually play condition I have a perfect chance to kill easy everyone that have only few condi clean/xxxx ability but can’t kill classes with huge condi clean/xxx ability.

The sPvP game is balanced around a balanced team. If you don’t have a chance to make a balanced team because you can only play in 1-2queue is another problem.

between a team with an ele and a team without an ele the first win at 90% because the ele is the best choice to clean conditions, suport allies and CC enemies, all at the same time. If you don’t have someone to clean your weakness, vulnerability and immobilize you’re already doomed to lose. Even more if no one can help you to fight conditions.
But the game is balanced thinking that you Have a Support class/build able to do that.

The game is well balanced and Condition damage is not so strong as everyone scream around. Not in a real team with someone able to clean conditions and support his allies.

Look to metabattle, for example: how many Condition builds do you see?
In the “Meta” there’s 6 Power based builds and 2 Condition based builds.
In the “Great” there’s 3 Power and 2 Condi
In the “Good” theres 9 Power, 7 condi and 1 bunker

Lower you go more conditions there are. Higher you go more Power there are.
Don’t you think that that mean something?
There’s a lot of Condition builds but they’re Bad if compared to Power builds.

Metabattle is not the perfection but it’s good to know what is one of the best ways to play a class. And a good example to show you what source of damage is better.

Add ways to deal with conditions isn’t going kill condition builds. Look at power builds, there is protection, weakness, blocks, evades, heals, hide behind a wall to block projectiles, damage immunity. Look where is it right now, it’s still perfectly fine.
Yes, it is team based. In ranked, you can queue as either do solo or duo. Have you seen anyone in ranked goes hey do guys need a healer or support? ima swap. No, they all wanted to be damage dealer. That’s why you have your own kittening heal. Ranked is not a place where you can queue as a 5 men and going in there with a plan. The most planning a team ever done is going mid, going home, or rush far….

The game is well balanced and Condition damage is not so strong as everyone scream around.

Ohhhhh you just want wait until PoF comes out. Then, come back here and tell me if condition damage is balanced LOL

geekilo.8512:

Add ways to deal with conditions isn’t going kill condition builds. Look at power builds, there is protection, weakness, blocks, evades, heals, hide behind a wall to block projectiles, damage immunity. Look where is it right now, it’s still perfectly fine.
Yes, it is team based. In ranked, you can queue as either do solo or duo. Have you seen anyone in ranked goes hey do guys need a healer or support? ima swap. No, they all wanted to be damage dealer. That’s why you have your own kittening heal. Ranked is not a place where you can queue as a 5 men and going in there with a plan. The most planning a team ever done is going mid, going home, or rush far….

Then that is the problem. The person you quoted has a point. sPvP is team-based. If it is true that the condi spam can be significantly countered by having a few dedicated supports in the composition then the weight of losing falls entirely on the players and not the builds. This isn’t even surprising. In all competitive games, almost everyone wants to be the damage superstar.

Lord Velar.1509:

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

thief has bleed, poison, immobilize and cripple and few torment easy to stack – high easy stacked – overpowered
necro torment, chill and bleed – high easy stacked – overpowered
guard burn, and bit cripple. – high easy stacked – balanced
rev got torment and burn and chill – low easy stacked – underpower
mesmer – confusion and torment – low medium stacked – balanced

condition class needs to have balanced between high stacked with 2 conditions or low stacked with more than 4 conditions

I feel that the real problem with conditions is when you start combining multiple classes running builds focused on them. It’s not hard to deal with a Burn Guard or a Confusion/Torment Mesmer 1v1 – when you face one of those in addition to something like Necro that has a ton of cover condis in addition to light cc’s like cripple that might be thrown out is when the game feels like a spamfest.

I’ll say it again, we need more ways to cleanse SPECIFIC condis. For example, Warrior can cleanse Immobilize by using a movement skill and A.E.D removes several damage based conditions. When using those mechanics, you know EXACTLY which condis are going to be removed. This also has a nice side benefit of being able to design classes to be strong and weak to certain conditions. For example, Warrior can focus on removing movement impairing condis while being weaker to certain damage based ones. Meanwhile, Necro can focus on transferring and consuming damaging condis while being susceptible to movement based ones.

It is much less frustrating to lose to something you’re SUPPOSED to be weak to, instead of going “well kitten too bad my cleanse removed cripple, blind, and 2 stacks of bleeding instead of the 10 stacks of burning.” All of these blanket cleanses aren’t technically random because we know how they work, but at the same time you have basically no control of what you remove, you can either reach the condi you want gone, or you can’t. It doesn’t feel good even if it’s no OP.

Doing the above would also allow the devs to tweak the amount of Resistance Spellbreaker is getting, because I can already see the amount of QQ that’s going to cause, despite the fact that as a whole War’s condi cleanse up until now hasn’t been great. Just like how those that use condi in here say “just cleanse” I’m going to be forced to say “just corrupt/steal/remove” when it comes to Resistance.

Quotes:

Learning to better sync with the team. It’s still hard in the heat of action and aoe spam, but it’s what differenciates a pro player from the everyday average player I suppose.

—

Then that is the problem. The person you quoted has a point. sPvP is team-based. If it is true that the condi spam can be significantly countered by having a few dedicated supports in the composition then the weight of losing falls entirely on the players and not the builds. This isn’t even surprising. In all competitive games, almost everyone wants to be the damage superstar.

—

It´s like that. Its a team game but we don´t have teams in ranked …

Wolfric.9380:

Quotes:

It´s like that. Its a team game but we don´t have teams in ranked …

the problem is i see druid not cleanse for his team and trying to do dmg instead.
ele focus on his survival so left with no aoe cleanse at all.

the problem is the support class a bit weaker and in solo q most ppl try to do dmg instead of thinking about support.

no one talking or chatting, ppl complain about bots or afk. so why should i role as a support if i can do dmg and manage my solo 1v1.

when POF is out it gonna be a lot worse with all the condi is coming out. anet will try to push back to support meta (not bunker rather support) and even is soloq when you wont see druid ele or even ventari rev some will have to change

geekilo.8512:

Add ways to deal with conditions isn’t going kill condition builds. Look at power builds, there is protection, weakness, blocks, evades, heals, hide behind a wall to block projectiles, damage immunity. Look where is it right now, it’s still perfectly fine.
Yes, it is team based. In ranked, you can queue as either do solo or duo. Have you seen anyone in ranked goes hey do guys need a healer or support? ima swap. No, they all wanted to be damage dealer. That’s why you have your own kittening heal. Ranked is not a place where you can queue as a 5 men and going in there with a plan. The most planning a team ever done is going mid, going home, or rush far….

The game is well balanced and Condition damage is not so strong as everyone scream around.

Ohhhhh you just want wait until PoF comes out. Then, come back here and tell me if condition damage is balanced LOL

Add ways to counter conditions will kill condi as the same way increase ways to counter power will kill power.
“blocks, evades, heals, hide behind a wall to block projectiles” are you serious?
Do you know that block/dodge/evade a condition skill/bomb also block all the incoming condition damage from that skills? Run back a wall while a mesmer active scepter 2 make the skill broke and save you from all the enemy projectiles. Do you know that?
Blind, Block, Dodge, Evade, movement skills, everything that make a Power skill hiss you Also make a Condition skill miss you.
The Only difference is that Power inflict All his damage when hit while Condition took more time. The result is that when the enemy hit you enough to stack conditions you can see a high damage tick on you and you scream loud because you “can’t dodge/block/blind/xxx” that damage. The problem is that you CAN block/xxxxxx that damage but you have to do that Before you see the high tick.
But you’re lucky because there’s so much condi clean skills that when you see a high tick you can active a condi clean and clean all the future damage.

About power damage immunity, there’s Resistance that make you ignore all the conditions Effect and Damage. Few classes have it but it’s the best counter to any condition build in this game. A good warrior will never lose against a condition build (too much Power Burst, CC, movement and Resistance to be killed by a condi build in 1v1)

Aniother thing: HEAL is Not a Counter. And, if you look it as a conunter, Healing skills counter Better Condition damage than Power.

The problem that you listed here is that in Ranked no one care about you because you’re not able to play with your friends and can’t make a real team with a real strategy and an optimal composition.
But the game is balanced thinking that you have a good team composition and when you find a support that don’t only hang around thinking for himself but heal and clean conditions for his allies you discover that conditions are really balanced and sometimes underpowered if compared to Power damage/builds.

Make players able to join Only as a team should remove all that “condi is OP” threads.

About PoF, there’s different classes able to spam conditions and others able to spam Power damage. A Deadeye can hit for up to 35k in 1 hid, do you know? The new Engi elite have a Power damage that is seriously Insane. But also a Firebrand can melt players pretty easy if they are caught out of condi clean or Resistance skills, but if you focus him there’s no way he can survive because have worst defensive skills than the DH. Also the Scourge will have a really good condi spam, but is even easier to kill than the actual necro (and the necro already is the easiest class to kill of the game…)

Anyway, it’s the expansion and have to be better or different from the things we have now. There will be (maybe) a rework for some actual elite that will focus more on Power or Condition damage, based on the new elite. For example, the Reaper will go full Power and the Scourge full condition, the DH is already full power and the Firebrand is full condi (with more ally support and less self support).

Actually we have a well balanced condi/power state, where Power is still the Meta by a large amount and condiiton is easy to counter.
The only problem, as you say, is that is balanced on a Team and we can’t make Teams in Ranked.

messiah.1908:

Lord Velar.1509:

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

thief has bleed, poison, immobilize and cripple and few torment easy to stack – high easy stacked – overpowered
necro torment, chill and bleed – high easy stacked – overpowered
guard burn, and bit cripple. – high easy stacked – balanced
rev got torment and burn and chill – low easy stacked – underpower
mesmer – confusion and torment – low medium stacked – balanced

condition class needs to have balanced between high stacked with 2 conditions or low stacked with more than 4 conditions

It went over just about everyones head, but yours, and even then yours a bit too as well, you just got a bit closer

My point was that, every class SPECIALIZE in a specific condition such as

Necro= BLEED
Thief= POISON
Guardian= BURN

Most condi cleanse abilities cleanse anywhere from 3-4 conditions, every class has at least one that can do that many and more abilities that will still cleanse but even less.

So if you cant put a build together that will cleanse at least against 1v1, you as I said have a l2p issue

Ofc if 2 condi players are on you youre going to get over loaded with condi, that’s a no brainer, yet its no difference if those 2 were power (at least with condi you have cleanses to counter it and invuln periods)

I wouldn’t say that condi is op in any sense, its actually balanced compared to power

As for condi rev…..ive never died to one…..literally…..they usually always get pressured and tend to die pretty fast

My point is, cleansing against 1-2 players is possible

Against an entire team is highly unlikely, but that doesn’t mean condi is the issue

Power is no better, my power necros has broken 500k+ in terms of crit damage in a single match, if you tell me that you prefer that over condi I’m gonna have to call you a specific kind of special.

Even after nerf he hits for 400k+, any idea how hard it is for even 2 people to survive pressure by 1 person?

Condi may be primarily aoe (depending on build)

but that doesn’t mean its op

You can cleanse my 16k bleed stacks all you want, you aren’t walking away from a 9k, 10k, and 11k crit that land

Max fire damage before HoT around 800
Max fire damage post HoT over 5k

Enough said.

Apolo.5942:

Max fire damage before HoT around 800
Max fire damage post HoT over 5k

Enough said.

such a well thought out argument.
Besides burning before hot had its own issues.

You can’t have it both ways. Either you want condi to be long-lasting, low damage DoT. In this case, you need reduced cleanse available overall. IE: getting rid of all cleanse traits and ONLY relying on cleanse skills, or something similar.

… or you want what we have currently, where condi is basically burst. No one is expected to land stacks of burn/bleed/poison for more than a few seconds and they are balanced accordingly (2-5k ticks).

Personally, I’d prefer the former to the latter, but I get that condi=burst is easier to balance. I just hate that it limits viable builds to ONLY the ones with the best cleanse.

Lord Velar.1509:

Power is no better, my power necros has broken 500k+ in terms of crit damage in a single match, if you tell me that you prefer that over condi I’m gonna have to call you a specific kind of special.

Even after nerf he hits for 400k+, any idea how hard it is for even 2 people to survive pressure by 1 person?

Condi may be primarily aoe (depending on build)

but that doesn’t mean its op

You can cleanse my 16k bleed stacks all you want, you aren’t walking away from a 9k, 10k, and 11k crit that land

pls pls you just didnt say that. if you manage to do 500k dmg its means the enemy team manage to heal better, which means you took longer to kill.

those state doesnt say a thing.

i am a healer. one game i achieved over 800k healing. other fights just 150k. with the 800 my team didnt manage to kill fast and with out they did great killing faster.

conditions atm are hard to dodge during team fight. in 1v1 its easy to handle. thus its need your team to focus the condi first cause if they left untouched from range like necro they can do massive aoe dmg on point.
mesmer more easy but tricker in the right hands. you need to kill illusion fast. or dodge blind the shatter.

messiah.1908:

Lord Velar.1509:

Power is no better, my power necros has broken 500k+ in terms of crit damage in a single match, if you tell me that you prefer that over condi I’m gonna have to call you a specific kind of special.

Even after nerf he hits for 400k+, any idea how hard it is for even 2 people to survive pressure by 1 person?

Condi may be primarily aoe (depending on build)

but that doesn’t mean its op

You can cleanse my 16k bleed stacks all you want, you aren’t walking away from a 9k, 10k, and 11k crit that land

pls pls you just didnt say that. if you manage to do 500k dmg its means the enemy team manage to heal better, which means you took longer to kill.

those state doesnt say a thing.

i am a healer. one game i achieved over 800k healing. other fights just 150k. with the 800 my team didnt manage to kill fast and with out they did great killing faster.

conditions atm are hard to dodge during team fight. in 1v1 its easy to handle. thus its need your team to focus the condi first cause if they left untouched from range like necro they can do massive aoe dmg on point.
mesmer more easy but tricker in the right hands. you need to kill illusion fast. or dodge blind the shatter.

Ummm no, not at all really, it doesn’t mean I got out healed if I have top kills and top damage as my top stat awards

Especially if my team won, if we lost, 9/10 everyone was everywhere

So no, scoring big damage does not mean that I got out healed cause if that was the case (don’t mean to toot my own horn here)

But that would mean over half my matches I just simply got out healed and theres plenty of teams that would like to argue against that

Jinn Galen.2468:

geekilo.8512:

Add ways to deal with conditions isn’t going kill condition builds. Look at power builds, there is protection, weakness, blocks, evades, heals, hide behind a wall to block projectiles, damage immunity. Look where is it right now, it’s still perfectly fine.
Yes, it is team based. In ranked, you can queue as either do solo or duo. Have you seen anyone in ranked goes hey do guys need a healer or support? ima swap. No, they all wanted to be damage dealer. That’s why you have your own kittening heal. Ranked is not a place where you can queue as a 5 men and going in there with a plan. The most planning a team ever done is going mid, going home, or rush far….

Then that is the problem. The person you quoted has a point. sPvP is team-based. If it is true that the condi spam can be significantly countered by having a few dedicated supports in the composition then the weight of losing falls entirely on the players and not the builds. This isn’t even surprising. In all competitive games, almost everyone wants to be the damage superstar.

Im sorry, when the game match you up with 4 other people. Does it pick 4 damage dealer and 1 healer? No it’s on you to figure it out. You have 1 min to change or do anything you want before the match starts. Most of the game that im in, people don’t even say anything. How am i supposed to know to what they run? There isn’t a define role in pvp. This is GW2 . This isn’t league where when you queue up, you can queue as top, mid, jungle , adc or support. The game just pick random ppl that are around ur skill rating and you have no kittening idea what build they run. It can be all 5 damage dealers, 0 support or 4 supports and 1 damage dealers. There is no tell what you’re going to get match up with… idk if u know but u cant swap to a different character in the middle of the game anymore. There is no changing build.

messiah.1908:

Wolfric.9380:

Quotes:

It´s like that. Its a team game but we don´t have teams in ranked …

the problem is i see druid not cleanse for his team and trying to do dmg instead.
ele focus on his survival so left with no aoe cleanse at all.

the problem is the support class a bit weaker and in solo q most ppl try to do dmg instead of thinking about support.

no one talking or chatting, ppl complain about bots or afk. so why should i role as a support if i can do dmg and manage my solo 1v1.

when POF is out it gonna be a lot worse with all the condi is coming out. anet will try to push back to support meta (not bunker rather support) and even is soloq when you wont see druid ele or even ventari rev some will have to change

+1