Guild Wars 2

Sorry but imho opinion condi builds are for lazy players. Drop a bomb and stay away. It baffles me that people actually find it fun to play condi builds. LAZY! I remember when condition damage was supplemental to power damage and in that, there was balance. When a player has to spend the entire encounter cleansing condi’s it screams something wrong. Condi builds take no skill whatsoever to play.

Agree, disagree?

What prompted me to post this in part is due to last weekend. I had some time to kill and ended up watching about an hour of spvp matches from about a year ago. There was a noticeable difference in gameplay. Fights were more intense and the skill level was obvious. People can claim you push the same amount of buttons, and that’s certainty true. I think it’s ignorant to claim that bursting with power is the same as bursting with condi. Power bursting starts and stops with each attack and therefore takes more skill to keep up pressure. If that doesn’t make sense this game is lost. Thankfully there’s a lot of competition in the gaming world these days.

It takes the same amount of button presses to condi-bomb someone as it does to burst them in this game. Don’t fool yourself into believing that power builds require any more skill than condition builds. There is very little skill to either.

Pyriall.1683:

It takes the same amount of button presses to condi-bomb someone as it does to burst them in this game. Don’t fool yourself into believing that power builds require any more skill than condition builds. There is very little skill to either.

Mashing buttons and running away while the condi does it’s thing doesn’t seem the same to me.

War, Nec, & Mes are typically the only viable condi classes and only Mes would “run away”. There’s a reason why no condi teams exist in spvp… they’re not very efficient. In a way, other condi classes other than these 3 takes more skill to make work.

I play Warrior and Druid exclusively since GW2 came out.

Last week I geared a Mesmer in condi/perplex gear. I was steamrolling everyone I encountered with ease, simply by mashing buttons, even most 2v1’s were easy. I have to actually pay attention and try on my mains.

Condi application is cheesemode as kitten.

Furajir.3815:

I play Warrior and Druid exclusively since GW2 came out.

Last week I geared a Mesmer in condi/perplex gear. I was steamrolling everyone I encountered with ease, simply by mashing buttons, even most 2v1’s were easy. I have to actually pay attention and try on my mains.

Condi application is cheesemode as kitten.

Perplex is only in WvW though, and I will also guess you were in Dire gear. These two gear components are over the top and are not allowed in PvP (and imo should be removed from WvW as well).

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Furajir.3815:

I play Warrior and Druid exclusively since GW2 came out.

Last week I geared a Mesmer in condi/perplex gear. I was steamrolling everyone I encountered with ease, simply by mashing buttons, even most 2v1’s were easy. I have to actually pay attention and try on my mains.

Condi application is cheesemode as kitten.

Perplex is only in WvW though, and I will also guess you were in Dire gear. These two gear components are over the top and are not allowed in PvP (and imo should be removed from WvW as well).

Doesn’t matter. pvp is a joke. So is wvw. They removed an amulet. Now it sucks in spvp.

Saiyan.1704:

War, Nec, & Mes are typically the only viable condi classes and only Mes would “run away”. There’s a reason why no condi teams exist in spvp… they’re not very efficient. In a way, other condi classes other than these 3 takes more skill to make work.

Have you watched the pro league series? Not sure how many times one the commentators will shout " omg look at the condis!!!" Or something like that. If I had to guess the reason more condi builds aren’t used is because group comp needs support builds.

The only way for condi’s to land on someone is for the skill to hit you.

If a skill hits you, it does damage.

Regardless if the skill is condi-focused, or direct-damage-focused.

You can spam buttons in a power build for the same effect.

Thus, the difference between condition application and direct-damage application is negligible.

Actually, in a direct-damage situation, your opponent can rarely negate 50-100% of your outgoing dps with just a couple skill-pops. In that sense, condi probably takes more skill.

Razor.9872:

The only way for condi’s to land on someone is for the skill to hit you.

If a skill hits you, it does damage.

Regardless if the skill is condi-focused, or direct-damage-focused.

You can spam buttons in a power build for the same effect.

Thus, the difference between condition application and direct-damage application is negligible.

Actually, in a direct-damage situation, your opponent can rarely negate 50-100% of your outgoing dps with just a couple skill-pops. In that sense, condi probably takes more skill.

Hmm… what about the fact that condi bypasses toughness? So much for damage mitigation I guess. Seems to me with condi powercreep, condi builds have consistently gotten less skillfull. Agree to disagree I suppose.

Pyriall.1683:

It takes the same amount of button presses to condi-bomb someone as it does to burst them in this game. Don’t fool yourself into believing that power builds require any more skill than condition builds. There is very little skill to either.

Power needs to land interrupts and make sure they aren’t hitting cooldowns into blocks, evades, or Facet of Light and while ranged power doesn’t take as much skill as melee you have to take care not to burst into a reflect and have a feel for switching to staff or celestial avatar form.

I’ve played the current warrior meta build, the Mallyx rev in season 1, and used ele, druid, retribution herald, and thief throughout and have to say ret herald and thief take the most skill with druid not far behind. Ele is a mixed bag depending on the situation but efficient use of overloads and being aware of stuff that can interrupt you is critical so the verdict there is not face roll though still generally easy with tough moments. The condi warrior and Mallyx rev were even easier than that.

drcraig.9403:

Hmm… what about the fact that condi bypasses toughness? So much for damage mitigation I guess. Seems to me with condi powercreep, condi builds have consistently gotten less skillfull. Agree to disagree I suppose.

Condi Cleanse=Condi Damage Mitigation.
Toughness=Direct Damage Mitigation.
Healing=General Damage Mitigation

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

drcraig.9403:

Hmm… what about the fact that condi bypasses toughness? So much for damage mitigation I guess. Seems to me with condi powercreep, condi builds have consistently gotten less skillfull. Agree to disagree I suppose.

Condi Cleanse=Condi Damage Mitigation.
Toughness=Direct Damage Mitigation.
Healing=General Damage Mitigation

Yes, unfortunately you can run out of cleanse. That = no mitigation. Condi builds don’t run out of condis.

drcraig.9403:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Condi Cleanse=Condi Damage Mitigation.
Toughness=Direct Damage Mitigation.
Healing=General Damage Mitigation

Yes, unfortunately you can run out of cleanse. That = no mitigation. Condi builds don’t run out of condis.

Yes, a condi build that ran out of condis would be a pretty sorry build.

However, toughness doesn’t stop all direct damage. I’m not clear what kind of damage mitigation you’re looking for, here. Do you want condition clears that can stop all condition damage?

Furajir.3815:

I play Warrior and Druid exclusively since GW2 came out.

Last week I geared a Mesmer in condi/perplex gear. I was steamrolling everyone I encountered with ease, simply by mashing buttons, even most 2v1’s were easy. I have to actually pay attention and try on my mains.

Condi application is cheesemode as kitten.

Power application is cheesemode as…

“Hit two buttons and half my health is gone”, that applies to both power and condition builds. I’m sorry, they’re the same amount of “cheese” in this game.

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

drcraig.9403:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Condi Cleanse=Condi Damage Mitigation.
Toughness=Direct Damage Mitigation.
Healing=General Damage Mitigation

Yes, unfortunately you can run out of cleanse. That = no mitigation. Condi builds don’t run out of condis.

Yes, a condi build that ran out of condis would be a pretty sorry build.

However, toughness doesn’t stop all direct damage. I’m not clear what kind of damage mitigation you’re looking for, here. Do you want condition clears that can stop all condition damage?

No, just stating that I think condi builds are for lazy, unskilled players.

drcraig.9403:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

drcraig.9403:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Condi Cleanse=Condi Damage Mitigation.
Toughness=Direct Damage Mitigation.
Healing=General Damage Mitigation

Yes, unfortunately you can run out of cleanse. That = no mitigation. Condi builds don’t run out of condis.

Yes, a condi build that ran out of condis would be a pretty sorry build.

However, toughness doesn’t stop all direct damage. I’m not clear what kind of damage mitigation you’re looking for, here. Do you want condition clears that can stop all condition damage?

No, just stating that I think condi builds are for lazy, unskilled players.

Then we’ll have to close by disagreeing, since your statement seems to be an entirely useless value judgement.

To be frank, you sound less like someone interested in balance, and more like someone who just doesn’t like dying to condi builds, and can’t be bothered to learn proper counterplay.

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

drcraig.9403:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

drcraig.9403:

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

Condi Cleanse=Condi Damage Mitigation.
Toughness=Direct Damage Mitigation.
Healing=General Damage Mitigation

Yes, unfortunately you can run out of cleanse. That = no mitigation. Condi builds don’t run out of condis.

Yes, a condi build that ran out of condis would be a pretty sorry build.

However, toughness doesn’t stop all direct damage. I’m not clear what kind of damage mitigation you’re looking for, here. Do you want condition clears that can stop all condition damage?

No, just stating that I think condi builds are for lazy, unskilled players.

Then we’ll have to close by disagreeing, since your statement seems to be an entirely useless value judgement.

To be frank, you sound less like someone interested in balance, and more like someone who just doesn’t like dying to condi builds, and can’t be bothered to learn proper counterplay.

Agree to disagree Thanks Frank!

The problem isn’t condi builds as they are perfectly viable. It’s the amount of condi application that happens in relation to how much cleanse people have. Some classes can apply it way too fast for a cleanse to cover. E.g on druid I usually wait for more than usual before I enter caf to cleanse. So i’m not wasting it. But literally 1 second or less after I’m loaded up again instantly with the same amount I just cleansed.

If people could outcleanse condi application that would make those builds useless which would be bad, so yes some overlap needs to happen. But the amount applied maybe needs toning down so people aren’t killing you in seconds instantly again after you cleanse their first burst.

Seems i need to repost this…

Wow, that time of the month already for some of you eh?

Okay, first of all, stop comparing condis to other games and trying to impose their laws on this game. Condis are not a “kill your enemy slow” source of damage. They are an alternate source of damage, just a different way to play.

Ok, more bubble popping time…..most condi builds require at least 2 of the following to be effective, condi damage, precision, and expertise. Boy this sounds alot like power builds needing power, precision, ferocity. Now now I know what you’re thinking, “But wait, power builds MUST HAVE all 3 of those stats, but but but condi reall only needs 1!” Not true my friend, plenty of power builds drop either ferocity or precision to take more defensive stats, aka our bruisers. This reduces their potential damage, just the same as condi users do when they go for their defensive stats.

Now on to the gameplay. You say “Well condi is just applied by autos and passives!” Well……yeah, welcome to how everything, including power damage, works in GW2. You telling me that you guys don’t have passives that deal direct damage or auto attacks that deal direct damage?

Now, mitigation is another topic I see often. Let’s set one thing straight to start with, the majority of methods for avoiding direct damage is the same for avoiding condi damage (aka block, blind, dodge, etc). Well then you guys say “Well condis go right through armor and protection, but power damage doesn’t!” Well that is true, but please tell me, what do condi cleanses and resistance do to power damage? Nothing right? Yup, they only effect condi damage. But here is the real kicker, whereas armor and protection reduce direct damage, resistance and condi cleanse completely negate condi damage. Poor power builds, sounds like they have it so hard.

Now for an example. My 2 favorite builds to play are Flamethrower Engi and Maurauder Engi, cause you know, Scrapper be boring as kitten. Now when I’m playing my condi Engi, I have fun setting a bunch of noobs on fire and bursting them down quick. However, I have no use in a teamfight due to constant group cleanses and my lack of aoe condi application. I accept that though, just one of my build’s weaknesses. But then I come across decent players that, gasp, bring condi cleanse, and I most often have to severely outplay them, disengage, or die. After a while of that I get bored and hop on my power Engi, and enjoy dealing much higher burst damage that isn’t completely negated, and I get to enjoy throwing my grenades into team fights and making a difference.

So this whole power vs condi argument is ridiculous. They are alternate methods of achieving the same goal, that’s it. Please stop kidding yourself into thinking one requires more skill than the other, they don’t. At some point you have to accept that the condi player that killed you either a) had a really easy time cause you didn’t want to or don’t know how to use your condi clear or, b) you were prepared to fight a condi class but you were simply outplayed. Stop blaming the game for your own shortcomings, unless of course it’s one of those patches where Anet completely broke something…..cause that does actually happen sometimes.

Shaogin.2679:

Seems i need to repost this…

Wow, that time of the month already for some of you eh?

Okay, first of all, stop comparing condis to other games and trying to impose their laws on this game. Condis are not a “kill your enemy slow” source of damage. They are an alternate source of damage, just a different way to play.

Ok, more bubble popping time…..most condi builds require at least 2 of the following to be effective, condi damage, precision, and expertise. Boy this sounds alot like power builds needing power, precision, ferocity. Now now I know what you’re thinking, “But wait, power builds MUST HAVE all 3 of those stats, but but but condi reall only needs 1!” Not true my friend, plenty of power builds drop either ferocity or precision to take more defensive stats, aka our bruisers. This reduces their potential damage, just the same as condi users do when they go for their defensive stats.

Now on to the gameplay. You say “Well condi is just applied by autos and passives!” Well……yeah, welcome to how everything, including power damage, works in GW2. You telling me that you guys don’t have passives that deal direct damage or auto attacks that deal direct damage?

Now, mitigation is another topic I see often. Let’s set one thing straight to start with, the majority of methods for avoiding direct damage is the same for avoiding condi damage (aka block, blind, dodge, etc). Well then you guys say “Well condis go right through armor and protection, but power damage doesn’t!” Well that is true, but please tell me, what do condi cleanses and resistance do to power damage? Nothing right? Yup, they only effect condi damage. But here is the real kicker, whereas armor and protection reduce direct damage, resistance and condi cleanse completely negate condi damage. Poor power builds, sounds like they have it so hard.

Now for an example. My 2 favorite builds to play are Flamethrower Engi and Maurauder Engi, cause you know, Scrapper be boring as kitten. Now when I’m playing my condi Engi, I have fun setting a bunch of noobs on fire and bursting them down quick. However, I have no use in a teamfight due to constant group cleanses and my lack of aoe condi application. I accept that though, just one of my build’s weaknesses. But then I come across decent players that, gasp, bring condi cleanse, and I most often have to severely outplay them, disengage, or die. After a while of that I get bored and hop on my power Engi, and enjoy dealing much higher burst damage that isn’t completely negated, and I get to enjoy throwing my grenades into team fights and making a difference.

So this whole power vs condi argument is ridiculous. They are alternate methods of achieving the same goal, that’s it. Please stop kidding yourself into thinking one requires more skill than the other, they don’t. At some point you have to accept that the condi player that killed you either a) had a really easy time cause you didn’t want to or don’t know how to use your condi clear or, b) you were prepared to fight a condi class but you were simply outplayed. Stop blaming the game for your own shortcomings, unless of course it’s one of those patches where Anet completely broke something…..cause that does actually happen sometimes.

Most builds nowadays are using DIRE or TRAILBLAZER stats.. Hardly a condi build needs ‘on crit’ anymore, that’s 2014..

No, just stating that I think condi builds are for lazy, unskilled players.

Much of this is simply not cleansing properly. You say you run out of cleanses, and that is true, but much like vs power builds you don’t immediately blow your immunes and blocks, you should not be blowing your cleanses vs all condis.

Power damage comes in bursts or in sustained damage. Toughness helps deal with some of that. Condi duration traits/runes are similar to toughness. Then there is resistance, which is similar to say, an immune for power damage.

Know the conditions. Watch your stacks. A 3 stack bleed and a single burn won’t likely kill you. A 15 stack bleed with 3 burns and several poisons will, and use your cleanses when appropriate.

It’s no different than fighting a power class and knowing when to block or dodge.

Also, condi attacks are generally all dodgeable. Almost all of them require the skill to hit you first, so you just need to dodge when you see them telegraph it. A macebow warrior starts leaping at you for the primal burst? dodge. He begins to fire his longbow primal burst for scorched earth? interrupt if possible.

I agree they are annoying because we aren’t used to dealing with them, but the counters are fine in game right now.

Shaogin.2679:

Seems i need to repost this…

Wow, that time of the month already for some of you eh?

Okay, first of all, stop comparing condis to other games and trying to impose their laws on this game. Condis are not a “kill your enemy slow” source of damage. They are an alternate source of damage, just a different way to play.

Ok, more bubble popping time…..most condi builds require at least 2 of the following to be effective, condi damage, precision, and expertise. Boy this sounds alot like power builds needing power, precision, ferocity. Now now I know what you’re thinking, “But wait, power builds MUST HAVE all 3 of those stats, but but but condi reall only needs 1!” Not true my friend, plenty of power builds drop either ferocity or precision to take more defensive stats, aka our bruisers. This reduces their potential damage, just the same as condi users do when they go for their defensive stats.

Now on to the gameplay. You say “Well condi is just applied by autos and passives!” Well……yeah, welcome to how everything, including power damage, works in GW2. You telling me that you guys don’t have passives that deal direct damage or auto attacks that deal direct damage?

Now, mitigation is another topic I see often. Let’s set one thing straight to start with, the majority of methods for avoiding direct damage is the same for avoiding condi damage (aka block, blind, dodge, etc). Well then you guys say “Well condis go right through armor and protection, but power damage doesn’t!” Well that is true, but please tell me, what do condi cleanses and resistance do to power damage? Nothing right? Yup, they only effect condi damage. But here is the real kicker, whereas armor and protection reduce direct damage, resistance and condi cleanse completely negate condi damage. Poor power builds, sounds like they have it so hard.

Now for an example. My 2 favorite builds to play are Flamethrower Engi and Maurauder Engi, cause you know, Scrapper be boring as kitten. Now when I’m playing my condi Engi, I have fun setting a bunch of noobs on fire and bursting them down quick. However, I have no use in a teamfight due to constant group cleanses and my lack of aoe condi application. I accept that though, just one of my build’s weaknesses. But then I come across decent players that, gasp, bring condi cleanse, and I most often have to severely outplay them, disengage, or die. After a while of that I get bored and hop on my power Engi, and enjoy dealing much higher burst damage that isn’t completely negated, and I get to enjoy throwing my grenades into team fights and making a difference.

So this whole power vs condi argument is ridiculous. They are alternate methods of achieving the same goal, that’s it. Please stop kidding yourself into thinking one requires more skill than the other, they don’t. At some point you have to accept that the condi player that killed you either a) had a really easy time cause you didn’t want to or don’t know how to use your condi clear or, b) you were prepared to fight a condi class but you were simply outplayed. Stop blaming the game for your own shortcomings, unless of course it’s one of those patches where Anet completely broke something…..cause that does actually happen sometimes.

Sigh…since when does “condi cleanse completely negate condi damage?” You take damage until you cleanse don’t you? Or, how about this. You have 8 conditions on you ( this happens all the time ) you can cleanse 3, do the other 8 stop dealing damage? No, I didn’t think so. Condition damage and stacking is out of control. I don’t for one second believe you should be able to cleanse 100% of the applied conditions all the time. I do however think that cleansing 10 condis to only have 10 more stack on you 3 seconds later is a problem. I also think it’s a lazy and unskilled playstyle.

Well, you are right, facetanking everything is definitely lazy and unskilled playstyle …

Bezerker.2379:

No, just stating that I think condi builds are for lazy, unskilled players.

Much of this is simply not cleansing properly. You say you run out of cleanses, and that is true, but much like vs power builds you don’t immediately blow your immunes and blocks, you should not be blowing your cleanses vs all condis.

Power damage comes in bursts or in sustained damage. Toughness helps deal with some of that. Condi duration traits/runes are similar to toughness. Then there is resistance, which is similar to say, an immune for power damage.

Know the conditions. Watch your stacks. A 3 stack bleed and a single burn won’t likely kill you. A 15 stack bleed with 3 burns and several poisons will, and use your cleanses when appropriate.

It’s no different than fighting a power class and knowing when to block or dodge.

Also, condi attacks are generally all dodgeable. Almost all of them require the skill to hit you first, so you just need to dodge when you see them telegraph it. A macebow warrior starts leaping at you for the primal burst? dodge. He begins to fire his longbow primal burst for scorched earth? interrupt if possible.

I agree they are annoying because we aren’t used to dealing with them, but the counters are fine in game right now.

Hey there. I understand what you’re saying, truth is I’m really frustrated. I WvW a fair bit and never mind too much when I get smoked by a condi build. It happens. In spvp though, when your stuck fighting in small groups it just seems a lot easier to me to condi bomb. I hate condi builds and rarely play them, but at times don’t feel like there’s much choice. When I say condi builds are lazy and unskilled, I base that on my own experience playing them. Thanks for the feedback, I do appreciate it.

dank.3680:

Most builds nowadays are using DIRE or TRAILBLAZER stats.. Hardly a condi build needs ‘on crit’ anymore, that’s 2014..

Sorry, I thought we were posting in sPvP forums. WvW isn’t really the best standard for balance. And like I said, they sacrifice potential damage just as power builds do when they take defensive stats.

Also fyi, most condi builds in sPvP are running Carrion or Wanderer’s.

Sigh…since when does “condi cleanse completely negate condi damage?” You take damage until you cleanse don’t you? Or, how about this. You have 8 conditions on you ( this happens all the time ) you can cleanse 3, do the other 8 stop dealing damage? No, I didn’t think so. Condition damage and stacking is out of control. I don’t for one second believe you should be able to cleanse 100% of the applied conditions all the time. I do however think that cleansing 10 condis to only have 10 more stack on you 3 seconds later is a problem. I also think it’s a lazy and unskilled playstyle.

Sounds like you don’t manage your cleanses well, or face tank condi attacks, or play a class with abysmal condi cleanse (which is a fault of that class, not the system).

Not gonna deny that some condi builds could use a nerf, but that is an issue with that build, not all condi damage in general.

All of you guys complaining about condi damage would be much more productive and taken more seriously if you focused your attention on certain builds and how to fix them, instead of throwing around exaggerated blanket statements about condi damage in general. I mean, you don’t get crit for 10k or whatever (depending on your game mode) and then go complain that all power damage is lazy and broken do you? No. You cry for nerfs to that class/build.

1v1 condis are fine. The problem comes from conditions from multiple sources, being focused onto one target. There is not enough condition cleanse to keep up. This is why I think changing resistance to – 50% condition damage and making it more available is good for the game.

Shaogin.2679:

dank.3680:

Most builds nowadays are using DIRE or TRAILBLAZER stats.. Hardly a condi build needs ‘on crit’ anymore, that’s 2014..

Sorry, I thought we were posting in sPvP forums. WvW isn’t really the best standard for balance. And like I said, they sacrifice potential damage just as power builds do when they take defensive stats.

Also fyi, most condi builds in sPvP are running Carrion or Wanderer’s.

Sigh…since when does “condi cleanse completely negate condi damage?” You take damage until you cleanse don’t you? Or, how about this. You have 8 conditions on you ( this happens all the time ) you can cleanse 3, do the other 8 stop dealing damage? No, I didn’t think so. Condition damage and stacking is out of control. I don’t for one second believe you should be able to cleanse 100% of the applied conditions all the time. I do however think that cleansing 10 condis to only have 10 more stack on you 3 seconds later is a problem. I also think it’s a lazy and unskilled playstyle.

Sounds like you don’t manage your cleanses well, or face tank condi attacks, or play a class with abysmal condi cleanse (which is a fault of that class, not the system).

Not gonna deny that some condi builds could use a nerf, but that is an issue with that build, not all condi damage in general.

All of you guys complaining about condi damage would be much more productive and taken more seriously if you focused your attention on certain builds and how to fix them, instead of throwing around exaggerated blanket statements about condi damage in general. I mean, you don’t get crit for 10k or whatever (depending on your game mode) and then go complain that all power damage is lazy and broken do you? No. You cry for nerfs to that class/build.

You are right I thought I was in the WvW forums where I belong.

I believe ppl are missing the issue relating to conditions. It is suppose to be an attrition based way to do combat, but condition take 0 time to ramp up. I mean the very notion of condi burst is proof of bad design.
For example lets take a look at skills like skull grinder or a mesmer shatter traited with Ineptitude, Maim the Disillusioned, and Blinding Dissipation. They both inflict lots of conditions all while on low cool down (talking about mind wreck and Cry of Frustration), resulting in skills that inflict heavy condition damage without any real ramp up time (you can make a argument that the mesmer case is fair since you have to heavily trait for it, but skull grinder has a daze and a blast on top of hefty condi application and even more so if traited in strength).
This combined with the fact that no class can clear conditions indefinitely and that other than resistance (very limited) and stacking vitality there is no way to mitigate condi dmg makes fighting condi builds not fun. On top of all that condi builds are naturally tanky as they only require 1 offensive stat.

They need to ether make conditions not able to be used as burst, lowering the amount of condition application per skill, or keep the burst potential but increase the cool down of ‘condi burst skills’, i mean 5 sec cd skull grinder is bat kitten insane.

foste.3098:

I believe ppl are missing the issue relating to conditions. It is suppose to be an attrition based way to do combat, but condition take 0 time to ramp up. I mean the very notion of condi burst is proof of bad design.
For example lets take a look at skills like skull grinder or a mesmer shatter traited with Ineptitude, Maim the Disillusioned, and Blinding Dissipation. They both inflict lots of conditions all while on low cool down (talking about mind wreck and Cry of Frustration), resulting in skills that inflict heavy condition damage without any real ramp up time (you can make a argument that the mesmer case is fair since you have to heavily trait for it, but skull grinder has a daze and a blast on top of hefty condi application and even more so if traited in strength).
This combined with the fact that no class can clear conditions indefinitely and that other than resistance (very limited) and stacking vitality there is no way to mitigate condi dmg makes fighting condi builds not fun. On top of all that condi builds are naturally tanky as they only require 1 offensive stat.

They need to ether make conditions not able to be used as burst, lowering the amount of condition application per skill, or keep the burst potential but increase the cool down of ‘condi burst skills’, i mean 5 sec cd skull grinder is bat kitten insane.

I mean, I feel as though you didn’t read my post at all.

They can walk away while the damage they applied ticks. You can mitigate that damage while they walk away. Defending against condi damage is actually easier than spike damage because you have a much larger time to react.

“But what if I don’t have cleanses?”

What if you don’t have dodges, blocks, blinds, or invulns?

I fail to see the difference.

The argument I seem to hear. Is that there is too few condi cleanses for the conditions that it needs to cover. It’s a silly argument. If there was Always enough conditon cleansing for the condtions, Then a condition build would never be able to kill you. You’d kill condi builds. There is no reason as to why condi builds are inherintely superior to power builds from a meta standpoint, Even in wvw power based builds are more frequent there.

Yes conditions melt through toughness and use one stat primarily. Because they can already be entirely cleansed before they even deal damage in the first place, Or even outright ignored through resistance, or migitated through invulnerabilities or 0 damage reduction. It deals damage over time in general. Just because the chronomancer and condi zerker can burst condi doesn’t mean that we need to attack condi’s in general. And even then in this meta Powerbased builds are doing better then the condi builds which only 3 are meta at the moment.

But it goes even further. Often a condi build needs to invest in power because their base damage is so low that they simply cannot apply pressure. It’s why all condi builds are actually hybrids. It’s why carrion and viper amulets are used over rabid and wanderers more often then not.

Condi’s are fine. I have the feeling people have issues moreso with the playstyle which they can view as passive and slow. Thus it’s prolly not honorable enough and then they still losing. While they can accept a loss more when they are under the impression that they opponent is actively chasing them down.

foste.3098:

I believe ppl are missing the issue relating to conditions. It is suppose to be an attrition based way to do combat, but condition take 0 time to ramp up. I mean the very notion of condi burst is proof of bad design.
For example lets take a look at skills like skull grinder […]

Skullgrinder can apply 6 stacks of bleeding and up to 8 stacks of confusion (only on interrupt, otherwise 4 stacks). Those condis are ticking for less than 1,5k dmg per second. Additional you take about 1k dmg per skill use.

Yes, total dmg can reach 10k+ dmg, but it will take 10 seconds or more for the full effect.

That’s the dmg a power builds can apply with autoattacks and you call it burst? Power warrior’s burst skills can instant hit for 10k or more every few seconds. That is burst! None of the meta condi builds is very bursty. Burst is currently less viable than lower but constant dmg due to the insane amount of active and passive defense. This favours condi builds for some classes, but also power builds like scrapper, rev and druid, which don’t rely on single hard hitting burst skills …

Pyriall.1683:

It takes the same amount of button presses to condi-bomb someone as it does to burst them in this game. Don’t fool yourself into believing that power builds require any more skill than condition builds. There is very little skill to either.

Power builds require timing, prediction, and proper CD usage. Condis can just piano their keyboard until the win because most are AOE, ranged, unblockable, etc. Krait runes 6 piece for example cannot be blinded, dodged, blocked, or avoided at all

You need to ask yourself why Druid ancient seeds was nerfed this season. No one was complaining about this because it was a group AoE condi cleanse that benefitted everyone who had a competent Druid healer on their team.

Now, why slam the nerf hammer on a skill that was not OP? They wanted conditions to be OP and oppressive this season. You can’t honestly tell me it was a mistake on their part.

No one complained about Druid’s team condi removal.

If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and poops conditions like a duck with diarrhea. It’s a duck.

PopeUrban.2578:

They can walk away while the damage they applied ticks. You can mitigate that damage while they walk away. Defending against condi damage is actually easier than spike damage because you have a much larger time to react.

“But what if I don’t have cleanses?”

What if you don’t have dodges, blocks, blinds, or invulns?

I fail to see the difference.

Everyone has dodges while blocks, blinds, and sometimes even invulns can be found on weapon skills whereas cleanses are typically on a utility.

Agemnon.4608:

PopeUrban.2578:

They can walk away while the damage they applied ticks. You can mitigate that damage while they walk away. Defending against condi damage is actually easier than spike damage because you have a much larger time to react.

“But what if I don’t have cleanses?”

What if you don’t have dodges, blocks, blinds, or invulns?

I fail to see the difference.

Everyone has dodges while blocks, blinds, and sometimes even invulns can be found on weapon skills whereas cleanses are typically on a utility.

Blocks, blinds, dodges, and invulns are equally effective at mitigating condition applications. Cleanses, however, can not mitigate direct damage. As well, not every class has the same access to condition output, cleanses, dodges, blocks, or blinds.

Typically, builds that are heavy on one are light on the other, and classes that are weak to conditions are specifically designed as such because they are naturally stronger against direct damage.

The difference is that people feel like they were cheated when they get killed by a DoT, despite being able to use all of the same defensive utilities to counter that damage on top of a host of skills specifically intended to counter only that damage.

Or, to put it simply, people don’t mind getting punished for failing to mitigate damage immediately, but have a real problem with getting punished for failing to dodge ten seconds later.

In the end, there’s not much difference. It takes no more or less skill to utilize or counter one method of damage versus the other, and in both cases there are varying levels of timing and accuracy requirements on both sides.

PopeUrban.2578:

Blocks, blinds, dodges, and invulns are equally effective at mitigating condition applications.

No they aren’t, there’s tons of unblockable AOE conditions and even runes that completely ignore dodge, blocks, and blinds.

Conditions are the easiest to apply damage in the game.

Which unblockable AOE condi skills except from necro’s marks? Which doesn’t deal that much condi dmg after deadly chill nerf.
Btw, unblockability and AOE is not exclusive to condi skills.

(Krait rune 6th bonus being unavoidable is imo a bug and should be changed of course – but it doesn’t deal much dmg and won’t kill anything on its own)

Shiyo.3578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Blocks, blinds, dodges, and invulns are equally effective at mitigating condition applications.

No they aren’t, there’s tons of unblockable AOE conditions and even runes that completely ignore dodge, blocks, and blinds.

Conditions are the easiest to apply damage in the game.

Equal number of unblockable direct damage attacks as conditions (even on Necro when you consider Well of Suffering/Corruption/Rise/Nothing Can Save You matches up with traited Mark of Blood, traited Chillblains, and Corrosive Poison Cloud). http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

I imagine Runes of Air are also unblock/dodge/blindable on their direct damage proc (albeit, I haven’t tested this). That said, yes. Rune effects need to be blindable/blockable/dodgable. I am in full agreement on this.

I think the issue is mainly that Conditions only need 1 stat to be effectively powerful.
A condition user can then add EXTRA damage through power/precision or go tankier. Because they have that —flexibility-- with that playstyle.

A Condi, Power, Toughness spec for instance will likely survive alot more engagements than a Beserker build. Since direct damage depends alot more on modifiers and 3 combo stats, you give up alot more.

Conditions also have debilitating effects on top of the damage. You are often punished for cleansing just as much as well. Direct damage has no debilitation other than dropping your HP to zero as any damage would. Taking a hit through direct damage doesn’t impact your skills or capability to fight.

Condi users still also benefit from direct damage. They do not lose out on such capabilities, so its not so much a trade off as it is a supplement to damage. Despite it being lower than a glass build, the difference isn’t usually substantial enough to make a difference over personal survival.
Requiring a foe to both worry about the direct damage aspects of pressure to mitigate as well as passive damage proccing from single hits thereafter.

Talonblaze.3175:

Conditions also have debilitating effects on top of the damage. You are often punished for cleansing just as much as well. Direct damage has no debilitation other than dropping your HP to zero as any damage would. Taking a hit through direct damage doesn’t impact your skills or capability to fight..

Its like people forget this detail in focusing on the amount of damage over time conditions deal….

Talonblaze.3175:

I think the issue is mainly that Conditions only need 1 stat to be effectively powerful.
A condition user can then add EXTRA damage through power/precision or go tankier. Because they have that —flexibility-- with that playstyle.

Wrong, my Flamethrower Engi’s condi damage takes a decent hit if I don’t pick up precision for the extra condi procs from both traits and sigils. Also note that the amulets used in most current condi builds are carrion and wanderer’s. Carrion is Condi/Power/Vitality, that’s a hybrid buddy, providing mediocre condi and mediocre power damage. Wanderer’s is Condi/Precision/Toughness/Expertise, holy snap that takes all three stats needed by condi users! Why on earth would anyone use that when it is clearly not needed?

Let’s throw in two power amulets shall we, Marauder’s (Precision/Power/Vitality/Ferocity) and Paladin’s (Power/Precision/Vitality/Toughness). Boy, looking at those amulets being used currently, well it doesn’t feel like those power guys and condi guys are all that different.

Euthymias.7984:

Talonblaze.3175:

Conditions also have debilitating effects on top of the damage. You are often punished for cleansing just as much as well. Direct damage has no debilitation other than dropping your HP to zero as any damage would. Taking a hit through direct damage doesn’t impact your skills or capability to fight..

Its like people forget this detail in focusing on the amount of damage over time conditions deal….

I’m sorry but what? We talking poison reducing healing here? Cause that is the only damaging condition with debilitating effects. Or are we talking cripple, chill, immobilize type deals, in which case I’d have to ask has everyone completely forgotten these conditions exist in power builds too?

I mean I feel like the anti-condi bandwagon is getting so old that people don’t even know what to use to keep it going anymore. I constantly see the same old excuses (yeah, that’s what they are) on why condi is so OP or cheesy or lame or lazy, even after these excuses are constantly debunked. People are so used to condition damage being slow attrition damage in every other game, and just can’t handle how different it is with this game.

Could some condi builds use some balance. Sure. Could power builds use some balance? You bet (and don’t even dare try to say no when I see all you forum people coming day after day to whine about Scrappers and Thieves or whatever else killed you that day). But you don’t accomplish that balance by nerfing entire sources of damage into oblivion cause you don’t feel like that other guy has to try as hard (especially when you know you are not exhibiting any more “skill” with your power build).

I love condis in theory, but in practice they are way too problematic in the current meta. Dealing with them requires too much specialized counterplay, and certain effect apply way too many condis at once. Condis should be attritional, they should slowly wear away the enemy, not burst them down with a dozen lethal and debilitating conditions at once that can drop you from full to zero health in seconds.

They need to take a look at the various effects that can apply a ton of conditions at once, perhaps reducing their impact significantly but lowering their cooldown, so that instead of applying a massive condi-burst at once, they apply small doses of them with a solid interval between them.

Maybe also tweak how Conditions interact with toughness so that they don’t completely bypass Toughness builds. Make it still an advantage that they can ignore Toughness to some degree, but perhaps just not by as much.

Condition damage in GW2 damages too fast. Most condition builds are applying good pressure through auto attacks, sigils, and passive traits. Then they retain the ability to condi bomb all the while being tanky as kitten.

The removal of key amulets has steered them to be a bit more vulnerable, but the ease of condi application combined with HoT power creep is too much.

Even now 1 simple auto attack can proc thousands of damage over time. While this is theory is in line with the attrition gameplay condi was supposed to be we aren’t counting in the multiple stacks + actual skills injunction with those passive autos. Throw in that most are ranged + easily reapplied and you start to see the problem.

Most players only wish condi builds required as much skill as their power counter parts. (Please no arguing this is pretty much fact) I am one of these.

So lets lobby for proper condi changes to bring skill requirement to these builds

Thx

drcraig.9403:

Shaogin.2679:

Seems i need to repost this…

Wow, that time of the month already for some of you eh?

Okay, first of all, stop comparing condis to other games and trying to impose their laws on this game. Condis are not a “kill your enemy slow” source of damage. They are an alternate source of damage, just a different way to play.

Ok, more bubble popping time…..most condi builds require at least 2 of the following to be effective, condi damage, precision, and expertise. Boy this sounds alot like power builds needing power, precision, ferocity. Now now I know what you’re thinking, “But wait, power builds MUST HAVE all 3 of those stats, but but but condi reall only needs 1!” Not true my friend, plenty of power builds drop either ferocity or precision to take more defensive stats, aka our bruisers. This reduces their potential damage, just the same as condi users do when they go for their defensive stats.

Now on to the gameplay. You say “Well condi is just applied by autos and passives!” Well……yeah, welcome to how everything, including power damage, works in GW2. You telling me that you guys don’t have passives that deal direct damage or auto attacks that deal direct damage?

Now, mitigation is another topic I see often. Let’s set one thing straight to start with, the majority of methods for avoiding direct damage is the same for avoiding condi damage (aka block, blind, dodge, etc). Well then you guys say “Well condis go right through armor and protection, but power damage doesn’t!” Well that is true, but please tell me, what do condi cleanses and resistance do to power damage? Nothing right? Yup, they only effect condi damage. But here is the real kicker, whereas armor and protection reduce direct damage, resistance and condi cleanse completely negate condi damage. Poor power builds, sounds like they have it so hard.

Now for an example. My 2 favorite builds to play are Flamethrower Engi and Maurauder Engi, cause you know, Scrapper be boring as kitten. Now when I’m playing my condi Engi, I have fun setting a bunch of noobs on fire and bursting them down quick. However, I have no use in a teamfight due to constant group cleanses and my lack of aoe condi application. I accept that though, just one of my build’s weaknesses. But then I come across decent players that, gasp, bring condi cleanse, and I most often have to severely outplay them, disengage, or die. After a while of that I get bored and hop on my power Engi, and enjoy dealing much higher burst damage that isn’t completely negated, and I get to enjoy throwing my grenades into team fights and making a difference.

So this whole power vs condi argument is ridiculous. They are alternate methods of achieving the same goal, that’s it. Please stop kidding yourself into thinking one requires more skill than the other, they don’t. At some point you have to accept that the condi player that killed you either a) had a really easy time cause you didn’t want to or don’t know how to use your condi clear or, b) you were prepared to fight a condi class but you were simply outplayed. Stop blaming the game for your own shortcomings, unless of course it’s one of those patches where Anet completely broke something…..cause that does actually happen sometimes.

Sigh…since when does “condi cleanse completely negate condi damage?” You take damage until you cleanse don’t you? Or, how about this. You have 8 conditions on you ( this happens all the time ) you can cleanse 3, do the other 8 stop dealing damage? No, I didn’t think so. Condition damage and stacking is out of control. I don’t for one second believe you should be able to cleanse 100% of the applied conditions all the time. I do however think that cleansing 10 condis to only have 10 more stack on you 3 seconds later is a problem. I also think it’s a lazy and unskilled playstyle.

So a cleanse is more of a mitigation then?

1st thing
Power, ferocity, precision stats are what you need for a heavily power based build.
Condition damage stat is what you need for a heavily condition based build.

2nd thing
Power damage can be blocked, evaded, made immune to with invulnerability, mitigated with toughness
Condi can be cleared and made immune to with resistance (which is a rare boon and not everyone has access to it) and that is it. You can go invulnerable, block or dodge and condi will still get you.
It is safe to claim that there is much more condition application capabilities than clearing them.

When you are getting a power burst in yo face, you can always evade, block go invulnerable or facetank with certain abilities like shroud or traited shield of courage, soak in some damage with extra toughness.

Condi? Condi build all that has to do is to tickle you a bit to force condi clear. It’s a win=win situation for such build because if you use condi clear, they will drop a condi bomb or a second dose of healthy condi to make you fall apart in time. If you won’t use condi clear while you are being teased, then you will just lose health over time anyway.

I am a power damage player for life in every MMORPG and I deeply dislike damage over time effects but I understand that there must be something like this.
I tried a few condi builds in this game to understand, and because of that I still claim that condition damage in its current state is just a bag of lazy cheese.

>MFW people claim for condi damage to be balanced (pic related)

Azukas.1426:

Even now 1 simple auto attack can proc thousands of damage over time. While this is theory is in line with the attrition gameplay condi was supposed to be we aren’t counting in the multiple stacks + actual skills injunction with those passive autos. Throw in that most are ranged + easily reapplied and you start to see the problem.

Thx

Which autoattacks are you talking about? Necros scepter is pretty much the only strong condi autoattack that’s used in a viable build. And it still deals less dmg than autoattacks of many power builds. Some condi builds have zero condis on autoattacks. Autoattacks are not what makes condi builds strong.

Rodzynald.5897:

2nd thing
Power damage can be blocked, evaded, made immune to with invulnerability, mitigated with toughness

Condis don’t come out of nowhere. The enemy has to hit you and you can avoid those hits exactly the same way you avoid power attacks. Condis can be avoided through blocks, blinds, invulnerability (don’t mistake immunity to direct dmg with invuln – those are different things), dodges, evades, LOS, going out of range and so on …

Yes, condis that are already on you won’t stop ticking because you dodge or block. But if you dodge or block after you got hit by a power attack it doesn’t do much either, right?

Cleanses and resistance are additional ways to deal with condis, just like toughness and protection are ways to lower the direct dmg you take.

drcraig.9403:

Sorry but imho opinion condi builds are for lazy players. Drop a bomb and stay away.

Hey look, i just pushed Precision Strike, that was so hard… i’ve nearly broke my finger so hard i pushed it.

Wait… i just landed as much damage on necro with 1 skill, as necro dealt to me with full Death spiral ? Oh no !!! Condi too op. QQ.

drcraig.9403:

Pyriall.1683:

It takes the same amount of button presses to condi-bomb someone as it does to burst them in this game. Don’t fool yourself into believing that power builds require any more skill than condition builds. There is very little skill to either.

Mashing buttons and running away while the condi does it’s thing doesn’t seem the same to me.

2 errors, one for each
1)in the current state of the game aka meta there are too many clases that put a lot of low staked condis whith a single attack
2) power builds are mashing butons and instakill, condi builds are mashing butons and wait a seconds and they die, the less skill is only a delusion because whith a power buiild the enemy is dead and condi users must survive a few seconds more while condis take effect

the problem is, in my opinion, the amount of conditios bombed in a low stack when condi playing means building a stack of a condition to make dmg, the reasonable thing is that 5 condis in 1 stack<<<<1 condi in 5 stack. the firts is that we have now and is no job to put because they can be aplied whit a single atack the second must be build up whith skill landing multiple atacks