Guild Wars 2

I’ve been reading a lot of posts about how the condi (i.e., burning) ticks are perhaps OP. Somehow, I personally haven’t experienced this (I’m anal about cleansing), but it’s hard to argue with some of the insane screenshots being posted.

I’ve heard talk about nerfing the condi damage into the ground, but this makes me nervous, because I don’t want to see the meta go back to 1-2 viable builds/amulets. I think having condi builds be viable is really healthy for PvP. I’m really enjoying the build diversity that we’re seeing at the moment. Maybe it’s short-lived until the meta settles (?), but it’s a ton of fun.

So what if the protection boon also reduced condi damage by 33%? Would this be a sufficient fix instead of nerfing condi’s? My feeling is that this wouldn’t kill condi builds since condi durations typically exceed protection durations, but it would alleviate some of the multiple-k burn ticks we’re seeing. Is this a great idea, or a terrible idea? I’m just throwing it out there, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on this suggestion, or any alternatives you can think up.

Cheers

Spot on, I say. It seems fair that if vulnerability increases it, protection should do the opposite. Especially considering the shear number of burn stacks that eles and us Engi’s can apply!

Conditions were meant to cater to attrition based play. They shouldn’t be able to match a zerkers burst in any capacity. What takes a zerker 10 seconds to do should take you 30, but you’ll be much safer doing it while the zerker, on the other hand, could probably die in 10 seconds as well. Playing a burn guardian with the rampager amulet, if I +1 a fight, the target will quite literally die almost instantly. It doesn’t matter if they’re zerk or bunker. The smite + 2 zealots flames is 10k damage on its own. Throw in the 10 stacks of burn for 6 seconds and we’re looking at 24k damage from the burns alone. I can, quite literally, down any target I so please in a team fight

In

6

Seconds.

^all of this at 1200 range too and can be made worse if I decide to yolo with our new elite shout and mad king runes.

In contrast, my marauder medi guardian can’t kill anywhere near as fast AND has to dive into the middle of the fight to do a good chunk of his damage. Ever since anet removed the condition cap, you’ll see worldbosses eat 50+ stacks of every condition easily. Have you any idea how much damage that actually is? All while comfortably kiting from a distance?

Tell us, op, why conditions deserve to be on par with zerker or marauders.

SlayerSixx.5763:

…Tell us, op, why conditions deserve to be on par with zerker or marauders.

So that people use them.

“On par” means viable; I’m not endorsing bursty condi builds.

Sounds like a solid idea to me

Salamander.2504:

SlayerSixx.5763:

…Tell us, op, why conditions deserve to be on par with zerker or marauders.

So that people use them.

“On par” means viable; I’m not endorsing bursty condi builds.

Before patch, conditions were already cheesy. Throw in amulet buffs and burning being stackable and that’s the reason why we have all these conditions flying around at the moment. Of course, I have far too many bones to pick with the way anet tweaked amulets (thieves and mesmers burst too hard as well thanks to the new zerker).

Honestly, my only gripe is how powerful burning has become. I’m running so many cleanses they may as well call me Mr. Clean. Granted, I haven’t faced many condition mesmers yet so I don’t have a solid opinion on them yet. As long as people can stack all of these cleanses and burst so kitten quickly, conditions will never be viable unless anet makes it possible to build for bunkering AND conditions.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Salamander.2504:

SlayerSixx.5763:

…Tell us, op, why conditions deserve to be on par with zerker or marauders.

So that people use them.

“On par” means viable; I’m not endorsing bursty condi builds.

Before patch, conditions were already cheesy. Throw in amulet buffs and burning being stackable and that’s the reason why we have all these conditions flying around at the moment. Of course, I have far too many bones to pick with the way anet tweaked amulets (thieves and mesmers burst too hard as well thanks to the new zerker).

Honestly, my only gripe is how powerful burning has become. I’m running so many cleanses they may as well call me Mr. Clean. Granted, I haven’t faced many condition mesmers yet so I don’t have a solid opinion on them yet. As long as people can stack all of these cleanses and burst so kitten quickly, conditions will never be viable unless anet makes it possible to build for bunkering AND conditions.

I’m not sure I understand you. You’re saying that conditions are both cheesy and unviable? I’ve bolded these sections in your post; please clarify.

Edit regarding your last comment: Isn’t the whole point of conditions builds that they are bunkier than zerker builds? As I understand it, a condition build can already be an effective bunker; less so than a dedicated cleric bunker, but much moreso than a zerker.

They’re unviable in higher levels of play and cheesy, if you can imagine. Builds don’t have to be viable to be cheesy, but any viable build can be justified to be cheesy if you apply a certain train of logic on them. Burning, in terms of numbers, is certainly quite powerful, but playing with the amount of cleanse common to an upper tier build, I can reliably keep the high stacks off before they become an issue. Call it personal salt if you will, but conditions, while not that big of a threat in most cases (even now) are just annoying to fight against. It just rubs me and many other players the wrong way when we have to put thought into our offense and defense when all you have to do is press a few buttons at any time you like and then run in circles while doing pressuring your target passively. I don’t usually like the idea of totally destroying a spec, but ALL condition specs (and perma stealth) need to go if anet wants their PvP to progress.

Also, trying to tank damage using stats (i.e. bunker amulets) won’t take you far with all the raw burst and burning flying around.

Personally; Conditions need to scale with Ferocity in some way, or another condition “crit” thing. (The reason it shouldn’t be precision is because Sinister/Rampager would be gross). A full damage source scaling with 1 stat (ignoring procs as both have those) while another scales with 3 is a bit silly. It would take a lot of work, but honestly, they need to work on how conditions deal damage, are mitigated, reduce condition removal a BIT, make protection work with conditions and remove Resistance. Something along these lines would be great. But like I said. Lots of work.

SlayerSixx.5763:

They’re unviable in higher levels of play and cheesy, if you can imagine. Builds don’t have to be viable to be cheesy, but any viable build can be justified to be cheesy if you apply a certain train of logic on them. Burning, in terms of numbers, is certainly quite powerful, but playing with the amount of cleanse common to an upper tier build, I can reliably keep the high stacks off before they become an issue. Call it personal salt if you will, but conditions, while not that big of a threat in most cases (even now) are just annoying to fight against. It just rubs me and many other players the wrong way when we have to put thought into our offense and defense when all you have to do is press a few buttons at any time you like and then run in circles while doing pressuring your target passively. I don’t usually like the idea of totally destroying a spec, but ALL condition specs (and perma stealth) need to go if anet wants their PvP to progress.

Also, trying to tank damage using stats (i.e. bunker amulets) won’t take you far with all the raw burst and burning flying around.

So wouldn’t the original suggestion (making the boon protection affect condition damage) help a ton? Vulnerability is such a common condition, converting it to protection would provide counterplay to condition builds. Furthermore, unless I’m mistaken, every class has access to protection, and guardians even have a few ways of applying 600-range protection.

Upon further thought on that last point, making protection affect conditions has the added benefit of pushing more guardians to shouts as opposed to the [fun but stale] medi zerker/marauder meta, which could have a domino effect of bringing back more bunkers (more bunkers=more build diversity, right?).

Nonono, sorry about that. I forgot to talk about your prot suggestion. It would definitely be a great idea (I personally believe they should’ve done it from the start if they made vuln buff condition damage).

Maybe Vigor could stack, and reduce condition duration while it’s on. No matter how many stacks you get, it’ll always give the same endurance regeneration, but more stacks would reduce condition duration even more, up to 25%.

This way if you get immobilized, you may be able to scrap up to 1 second off of every 4, to compensate you can’t dodge.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Conditions were meant to cater to attrition based play. They shouldn’t be able to match a zerkers burst in any capacity. What takes a zerker 10 seconds to do should take you 30, but you’ll be much safer doing it while the zerker, on the other hand, could probably die in 10 seconds as well. Playing a burn guardian with the rampager amulet, if I +1 a fight, the target will quite literally die almost instantly. It doesn’t matter if they’re zerk or bunker. The smite + 2 zealots flames is 10k damage on its own. Throw in the 10 stacks of burn for 6 seconds and we’re looking at 24k damage from the burns alone. I can, quite literally, down any target I so please in a team fight

In

6

Seconds.

^all of this at 1200 range too and can be made worse if I decide to yolo with our new elite shout and mad king runes.

In contrast, my marauder medi guardian can’t kill anywhere near as fast AND has to dive into the middle of the fight to do a good chunk of his damage. Ever since anet removed the condition cap, you’ll see worldbosses eat 50+ stacks of every condition easily. Have you any idea how much damage that actually is? All while comfortably kiting from a distance?

Tell us, op, why conditions deserve to be on par with zerker or marauders.

All that damage, with the exception of raw ramage, just got removed by a cleansing Bunker Guardian. All you’re left now is a glassy, weak raw damage build that’s not as good as Marauders.

Protection boon effecting Conditions sounds fair but… I don’t think conditions needs a nerf at all. They’re barely viable in Tournament play.

“Nerf Conditions” talk is another “Nerf Rangers Rapid Fire” discussion. OP in solo pvp but not so much in TPvP.

I know that, but its still cheesy and makes me cry a little every time I see my saladman burn.

or you know maybe they should streamline resistance.

I don’t understand the people who say that Conditions are cheesy. I’ve encountered a bunch of people who seem to think that Glassy and Power is the only way to go while I’ve always seen it as another way to deal damage.

The people I’ve encountered with that mentality were mainly low quality thieves who are blind about the questionable viability of Zerker / Marauder on other classes/spec. Don’t get me wrong, I would beat them in Zerker Fresh Air Staff.

Idk guys wouldn’t this just make protection an even stronger boon? Could you imagine how well you could tank with a bunker spec if you didn’t have to worry as much about conditions when you could just go for protection uptime?

This has literally been argued to death. A simple search would provide hundreds of threads of people explaining how and why conditions are cheesy.

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Give us a condition that negates boons effect for it’s duration instead of this bad idea.

Sagat.3285:

Give us a condition that negates boons effect for it’s duration instead of this bad idea.

Lol the thought of that just makes me think of how bad of an idea Resistance is. Resistance probably should have never been a thing.

ronpierce.2760:

Sagat.3285:

Give us a condition that negates boons effect for it’s duration instead of this bad idea.

Lol the thought of that just makes me think of how bad of an idea Resistance is. Resistance probably should have never been a thing.

Agree on the resistance part but a condition version for boons would have hopefully countered the boon heavy meta,put control over ele and actually improve an area of combat that’s seriously lacking boon hate instead of more condition counter.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Invulnerability is already a thing, and it’s more widespread than Resistance (which I am not a fan of). Leave your ad homenem’s in another thread. I’m fully aware how to cleanse: I’m not personally having trouble with conditions, but offering suggestions intended to improve overall gameplay for everyone.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

No way, protection is already the strongest boon in the game. It certainly doesn’t need to be any stronger. Also, the classes with a lot of protection aren’t exactly struggling against conditions currently (ele, necro, ranger, and guard). They just introduced a boon to counter conditions, maybe suggest adding that to specific classes instead of making the strongest boon in the game stronger.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Something like Invulnerability?

Invulnerability doesn’t ignore condis

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Something like Invulnerability?

Invulnerability doesn’t ignore condis

It also isn’t a boon and it does prevent new condis from being applied.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Something like Invulnerability?

Invulnerability doesn’t ignore condis

It also isn’t a boon and it does prevent new condis from being applied.

It doesn’t prevent existing condi from hurting you. If you got 17 stacks of bleed, you will die in your invulnerability state.

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Something like Invulnerability?

Invulnerability doesn’t ignore condis

It also isn’t a boon and it does prevent new condis from being applied.

It doesn’t prevent existing condi from hurting you. If you got 17 stacks of bleed, you will die in your invulnerability state.

The comparison to Resistance is still a bit off, though, since Resistance can be stripped, stolen, or extended while Invulnerability cannot do those things. Also, Resistnace only stops conditions from doing anything while invulnerability stops every negative thing incoming.

To be clear, I’m not in favor of a boon like Signet of Stone or Defy Pain ever entering the game.

Resistance. /Thread

Countless

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Something like Invulnerability?

Invulnerability doesn’t ignore condis

It also isn’t a boon and it does prevent new condis from being applied.

It doesn’t prevent existing condi from hurting you. If you got 17 stacks of bleed, you will die in your invulnerability state.

Then you should have used your invuln to prevent those 17 stacks of bleeding from being applied rather than using it after you got bursted.

If you take a ton of power damage before you use your invulnerability, then you will just die. It is the same thing, only difference, is with condis you get to see that you are about to die and have a small window of time to do something about it. With power you are just dead, no cleansing options available, no get out of jail free cards, dead. Invuln is just as much a counter to condis as it is to direct damage.

ArthurDent.9538:

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Something like Invulnerability?

Invulnerability doesn’t ignore condis

It also isn’t a boon and it does prevent new condis from being applied.

It doesn’t prevent existing condi from hurting you. If you got 17 stacks of bleed, you will die in your invulnerability state.

Then you should have used your invuln to prevent those 17 stacks of bleeding from being applied rather than using it after you got bursted.

If you take a ton of power damage before you use your invulnerability, then you will just die. It is the same thing, only difference, is with condis you get to see that you are about to die and have a small window of time to do something about it. With power you are just dead, no cleansing options available, no get out of jail free cards, dead. Invuln is just as much a counter to condis as it is to direct damage.

A power build can’t continue DPSing while the enemies are in invulnerability. A condi build can continue to pump out dps when the enemy is in invulnerability.

runeblade.7514:

ArthurDent.9538:

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

runeblade.7514:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Salamander.2504:

Bump: I still think protection should effect condition damage, in the same way that vulnerability now does.

Sure, once we get that boon that lets us ignore direct damage entirely for its duration.

You have Resistance (admittedly, not wide distribution, but it shouldn’t be either) and cleanses. Learn to use.

Something like Invulnerability?

Invulnerability doesn’t ignore condis

It also isn’t a boon and it does prevent new condis from being applied.

It doesn’t prevent existing condi from hurting you. If you got 17 stacks of bleed, you will die in your invulnerability state.

Then you should have used your invuln to prevent those 17 stacks of bleeding from being applied rather than using it after you got bursted.

If you take a ton of power damage before you use your invulnerability, then you will just die. It is the same thing, only difference, is with condis you get to see that you are about to die and have a small window of time to do something about it. With power you are just dead, no cleansing options available, no get out of jail free cards, dead. Invuln is just as much a counter to condis as it is to direct damage.

A power build can’t continue DPSing while the enemies are in invulnerability. A condi build can continue to pump out dps when the enemy is in invulnerability.

Wait that’s false no additional conditions are being applied to you. The scenario you are describing is similar to taking a burst then using invulnerability.

I like the idea to make protection absorb 33% of incoming condition dmg.

The suggestion to let condis crit is even better. They could reduce condi base dmg and scaling but let them crit. That way a full condi build will need more than just 1 stat to be 100% offensive.

I just had enough of this condi BS that has been going around forever, burn bots, PU confusion/torment spammers with perma stealth, burn guardian and every possible auto-carry condi trash spammer…THIS IS BS! Every fight on a point is nothing but condis spamm, random confusion shatter , random dodges because of perma vigor, perma regen..this game used to be fun, but now god…forget it, I’m done

SlayerSixx.5763:

Conditions were meant to cater to attrition based play. They shouldn’t be able to match a zerkers burst in any capacity. What takes a zerker 10 seconds to do should take you 30, but you’ll be much safer doing it while the zerker, on the other hand, could probably die in 10 seconds as well. Playing a burn guardian with the rampager amulet, if I +1 a fight, the target will quite literally die almost instantly. It doesn’t matter if they’re zerk or bunker. The smite + 2 zealots flames is 10k damage on its own. Throw in the 10 stacks of burn for 6 seconds and we’re looking at 24k damage from the burns alone. I can, quite literally, down any target I so please in a team fight

In

6

Seconds.

^all of this at 1200 range too and can be made worse if I decide to yolo with our new elite shout and mad king runes.

In contrast, my marauder medi guardian can’t kill anywhere near as fast AND has to dive into the middle of the fight to do a good chunk of his damage. Ever since anet removed the condition cap, you’ll see worldbosses eat 50+ stacks of every condition easily. Have you any idea how much damage that actually is? All while comfortably kiting from a distance?

Tell us, op, why conditions deserve to be on par with zerker or marauders.

only if you play bunker condi it should take 30, and it does, however if you play glass condi it should be just as fast as zerker, no ifs ands or buts about it. and then you have everything inbewteen.

also, i will give you an answer to your question as to “why conditions deserve to be on par with zerker”.

its because zerker is the prevelant TOP meta of the game and HAS BEEN FOR LAST 3 YEARS !!!!!

Many of us are so sick and tired of it it makes us wanna puke. Its condis turn now for 3 years, then it can go back to zerker. Thats why.

And I am extremely happy you brought up world bosses etc. into this because thats where this is most visible and tahts where zerker STILL is the top. hence in this game mode and in WvW condis need to be the top to balance the game as a whole. This is also why.