Guild Wars 2

Enjoy

This is just a clear example that mesmer vigor and dodging is a far cry compared to other classes. Personally the fact that it’s being addressed before some of the other things in the game is pretty mind blowing. Although the video itself was made poking fun at this, it’s still a pretty important issue when it comes to mesmer. Not to mention boon rip, arcane thievery, bountiful theft, etc. If all else fails for you, make it more points to invest, not nerf the trait.

TLDR: Critical infusion needs to stay the way it is, I personally believe you guys didn’t think this through.

Countless

I loled for real.

Nice video XD

That was the best.

Thank you so much for this.

Sounds effects the best.

IIRC Mesmer is like the last of all the classes to have it’s vigor up time nerfed – not really sure why anyone would be surprised by it at this point. Mesmer is as deserving of the nerf as every other class was.

SB 3 works off initiative not endurance, btw.

There are better ways to make arguments about Thief claiming sole ownership of burst/roamer in PvP.

Poor baby. Now you’ll only get 50% vigor uptime for a 5 point trait investment on a class that already has ludicrous baked in defenses. Just because one class is a gimmicky, complete failure of class design doesn’t mean your gimmicky, complete design failure of a class shouldn’t ever get nerfed.

LOL! So good!

/15 lol

Priceless, especially the sound effects!

Oh my goodness Countless

I am not touching the seriousness behind this post, I’m just gonna lmao at the sound effects. Pure awesome.

Lol this is amazing.

I’m not a mesmer player my self but when I do play one without energy sigils it feels like I can’t play the class properly. I can imagine the vigor nerf will make this feeling more apparent.

Oh Look, a thief using all of his init on a skill with a low coefficient and a utility to dodge a bunch – I’m sure the 2-3k total damage he would have done there while using every point of initiative and a utility would have been game breaking – If only his weaponset summoned another thief that could just automatically do damage for him while he was dodging or sitting in stealth (Stealth not pictured).
I similarly lol’d, but for other reasons.

Lmfao, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. xD

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh Look, a thief using all of his init on a skill with a low coefficient and a utility to dodge a bunch – I’m sure the 2-3k total damage he would have done there while using every point of initiative and a utility would have been game breaking – If only his weaponset summoned another thief that could just automatically do damage for him while he was dodging or sitting in stealth (Stealth not pictured).
I similarly lol’d, but for other reasons.

Wait a sec ..are you implying that you should be able to also do damage while being practically invulnerable for ages?? :P
The thing is that initiative isnt that hard to recover and that all the damage the thief is soaking up at that time plus all the distance he gets(dodge and evade skills come with mobility if you havent notice) make up for a pretty easy escape. At worst case he gets a reset while doing some damage and reliefing some pressure for his team by forcing enemy to blow cds..And then he stays at range applying some more damage and poison and all that..
You cant catch them,you cant punish them..and after you are done blowing cds they ll stick to you till the end of the world and they ll punish you hard.
Theres no need for defence stats on the thief and thats why..evades ,insane mobility(seriously it makes positioning a non issue while it should be) ,stealth ..togethter with high damage..Dont you think there should be a tradeoff? Dont you think other classes (i dont mean mesmer ) should be able to roll gc builds without being shut down by this..thing ?? :O
Its so badly designed.Its bringing a whole game down even at times were thieves dont have strong impact on meta.Its not really a matter of power and effectiveness how disgustingly this class operates.

Avead.5760:

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh Look, a thief using all of his init on a skill with a low coefficient and a utility to dodge a bunch – I’m sure the 2-3k total damage he would have done there while using every point of initiative and a utility would have been game breaking – If only his weaponset summoned another thief that could just automatically do damage for him while he was dodging or sitting in stealth (Stealth not pictured).
I similarly lol’d, but for other reasons.

Wait a sec ..are you implying that you should be able to also do damage while being practically invulnerable for ages?? :P

No, just pointing out that a thief who spends all his initiative dodging wont’ have any left for, you know, anything else at all. Other classes get blocks and evades, and it doesn’t cost them all of their offensive power on both of their weaponsets to do so – 4 disabling shots in a row evades 1 seconds longer than blurred frenzy, costs 16 initaitve (more than the max even with preparedness, meaning its only really possible with 30 trickery specs) as opposed to 1 skill out of 10, and the positioning can bite you in the kitten as much as it helps – try holding down a node while evading with disabling shot.

The thing is that initiative isnt that hard to recover

You’re going to have to qualify this statement. In what way is it not hard to recover? By standing around and waiting? That’s pretty much instant death.

It’s not like and that all the damage the thief is soaking up at that time plus all the distance he gets(dodge and evade skills come with mobility if you havent notice) make up for a pretty easy escape.

This isn’t WvW – escaping has some value, but spending all of your init/endurance/ a utility to do so drastically lowers it. It’d be just as easy to escape with SS and Inf Arrow, it’s what thief does. As for dodging damage…don’t spam CD’s while they’re dodging? AoE fields also do wonders.

At worst case he gets a reset while doing some damage and reliefing some pressure for his team by forcing enemy to blow cds

Why exactly was the enemy forced to blow CD’s? That was the point of mentioning the awful damage distracting shot did (which isn’t a complaint, just a fact) – if a thief is evade spamming, what are you blowing CD’s for?

..And then he stays at range applying some more damage and poison and all that..

How is he using choking gas? He just spent all his initiative dodging.

You cant catch them,you cant punish them..and after you are done blowing cds they ll stick to you till the end of the world and they ll punish you hard.

Again, if you blow all your CD’s against a dodge-spamming opponent, that’s on you.

Theres no need for defence stats on the thief and thats why..evades ,insane mobility(seriously it makes positioning a non issue while it should be)

Mobility and positioning are what a thief does. Their burst isn’t any better than any other burst class atm, each class has its role (or should, anyway)

stealth

Stealth And Evasion are mutually exclusive – no effective spec uses both, it’s 1 or the other. As for mobility and positioning, it’s significantly worse with “Stealth” (D/P).

..togethter with high damage
..Dont you think there should be a tradeoff? Dont you think other classes (i dont mean mesmer ) should be able to roll gc builds without being shut down by this..thing ?? :O

Learn to time things? I will agree that disabling shot probably needs a short aftercast so you can time attacks in between it, but it’s not some gamebreakingly OP issue – it doesn’t do enough damage to threaten even a GC, and escaping is roughly equal to losing (showing up at another fight missing init/endurance/utilities after having failed to cap/decap a point isn’t as strong as you’re making it out to be). Best case scenario, they spent 15-30s not helping their team win the game.

Its so badly designed.Its bringing a whole game down even at times were thieves dont have strong impact on meta.Its not really a matter of power and effectiveness how disgustingly this class operates.

So it doesn’t have a strong impact on the meta, people just don’t like fighting it. I guess they’ll have to learn to play?

Putting Aftercast?? lol ..that means only those who found about animation canceling will be able to abuse it..Thatd be a start
My whole point is that you cant time things.You cant count dodges and you cant invest resources on them without being prepared to waste a ton of stuff..as you said you must not blow cds while they evade/running/stealthing..Which is pretty much most of the time. If i have to time my burst…and my burst has proper animation and casting times then what is stoping a good thief timing his no cast dodge and evade skills to avoid it? What is the point of immob them if they can evade through it..And remember that not so long ago they could ignore stun aswell
And about the wvw comment..i though we were crying for more game modes. I dont believe thief as a class ..supports many other types atm

Just wanna say I counted about 16-17 evades (there were so many) in the 15 seconds that countless was in the video….
Yeah mesmer vigor is so broken.

best video

and i said it before
evades on skills should cost endurance like 10-20% – thats the resource made for this and would stop all this spam

same for 1 spamming sword rangerz

evades+ dodges should have be timed (risk reward) not just spammed (only reward)

Trigr.6481:

mesmer vigor and dodging is a far cry compared to other classes.

As someone who first mained a mesmer and then a necro, I beg to differ.

Romek.4201:

best video

and i said it before
evades on skills should cost endurance like 10-20% – thats the resource made for this and would stop all this spam

same for 1 spamming sword rangerz

evades+ dodges should have be timed (risk reward) not just spammed (only reward)

And what did that thief achieve outside of making you laugh?

Zero damage output while evading, zero damage output AFTER evading and no mobility or any form of utility from weapon skills.

Personally, guardians continously shielding themselves with random aegis popping here and there kitten me off more than evade thieves. Not to mention they can heal from 20%->100% hp as opposed to thieves, and it cannot be interrupted.

Dagins.5163:

Romek.4201:

best video

and i said it before
evades on skills should cost endurance like 10-20% – thats the resource made for this and would stop all this spam

same for 1 spamming sword rangerz

evades+ dodges should have be timed (risk reward) not just spammed (only reward)

And what did that thief achieve outside of making you laugh?

Zero damage output while evading, zero damage output AFTER evading and no mobility or any form of utility from weapon skills.

Personally, guardians continously shielding themselves with random aegis popping here and there kitten me off more than evade thieves. Not to mention they can heal from 20%->100% hp as opposed to thieves, and it cannot be interrupted.

block is nowhere near op as thief evade spam cause blocks have a limit and people see when aegis is up and can elminate it with throwing cotton wool on the guard

and shortbow evade is not all a thief can spam
sword mainhand is worsed thing ever – and yes with this evade spam he even make dmg and rip boons

or ranger 1 spam

your arguments are nonsense

Mesmer vigor is broken.
Thief evades are even more broken, though.

Nerf both and we are all happy.

Romek.4201:

sword mainhand is worsed thing ever

I understand that you are not a native english speaker but this particular sentence just awoke my inner grammar kitten.

Worse is the comparative form of bad and it should only be used when making comparisons between two specific subjects. Example: “berserker engineers are worse than berserker thieves”.

When you want to say that something is worse than everything else you need to use the superlative form of bad which is worst. Example: “mainhand sword is the worst weapon EVAH1!11!!!”.

Also, adding the suffix “ed” to worse does’t make any sense.

@Romek
If a random aegis pops in the middle of burst rotation, or the guardian pops some instant shield, it is no way worse than evades, which also consume your initiative, therefore also offensive capabilities.

And last time I played a thief, flanking strike didn’t steal any boon – larcenous strike did; and it doesn’t have an evade, but has a channeling time, which allows to counter the thief.

Laughing at people saying “thats not broken the thief didnt do any damage!!” You realize that he can basicaly become “immune” to all that you throw at and then Heal back up, and be back in thet game right? “Ohh but look at all that innitiative he wasted”, do you even play theif?

S/D just auto atacks for damage, go watch Sizer play and see that he only uses innitiative to dodge/teleport away, not doing damage…

The reason A-net hasn’t nerfed it yet is because no one would touch thief after that nerf, because they are worse than papper just like mesmers and eles.

No acrobatic. Video fail.

Trigr.6481:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RwKNkwcEZo

Enjoy

This is just a clear example that mesmer vigor and dodging is a far cry compared to other classes. Personally the fact that it’s being addressed before some of the other things in the game is pretty mind blowing. Although the video itself was made poking fun at this, it’s still a pretty important issue when it comes to mesmer. Not to mention boon rip, arcane thievery, bountiful theft, etc. If all else fails for you, make it more points to invest, not nerf the trait.

TLDR: Critical infusion needs to stay the way it is, I personally believe you guys didn’t think this through.

Countless

You are right, they did not think this through. The same is true about the other Mesmer nerf. Mesmers are not meta-viable, and, with these guys making the decisions, they never will be.

jportell.2197:

Just wanna say I counted about 16-17 evades (there were so many) in the 15 seconds that countless was in the video….
Yeah mesmer vigor is so broken.

Professional counting right there. Video was 10 seconds long with 11 evades total and he needed 4 seconds before he could use one more evade.

that video is kinda biased since the thief had to use energy rune sigil (can tell because was in combat with golem) and probably spec atleast 15 in the acrobatics tree. also thief can’t spam copies of themselves on every dodge and use them to shatter or just keep around for screen clutter.

question, if a thief is spamming 3 on shortbow it means he is doing little to no damage in return so what’s the problem here?

glaphen.5230:

jportell.2197:

Just wanna say I counted about 16-17 evades (there were so many) in the 15 seconds that countless was in the video….
Yeah mesmer vigor is so broken.

Professional counting right there. Video was 10 seconds long with 11 evades total and he needed 4 seconds before he could use one more evade.

A thief can technically build to gain initiative on swap, endurance on heal via runes, 2x energy sigils on 2x shortbow etc lol. I mean sure… It’s not the best killer but c’mon.. That kitten doesn’t belong in a 3A mmorpg… That’s to be embarassed about.

sorrychief.2563:

that video is kinda biased since the thief had to use energy rune sigil (can tell because was in combat with golem) and probably spec atleast 15 in the acrobatics tree. also thief can’t spam copies of themselves on every dodge and use them to shatter or just keep around for screen clutter.

question, if a thief is spamming 3 on shortbow it means he is doing little to no damage in return so what’s the problem here?

Professional video watching right here. He wasn’t in combat, you can see the pointy arrows on his utility skills. He didn’t have any points at all in acrobatics since he didn’t have vigor on heal and there was no Expeditious Dodger/Feline Grace procs. He refilled endurance with Signet of Agility.

Another garbage thread. Here, have some trash.

Erwin.5603:

Another garbage thread. Here, have some trash.

You’re garbage but they haven’t put you in the trash yet. I think there’s still hope.

High vigor uptime or not mesmers have access to blocks, invis, protection, aegis, blinks, invulnerability, projectile reflection, soft and hard cc.

I agree with Sorrychief, though. I mean… Have any of you mesmers tried playing a Necromancer? Sure it’s spammy and can win if never hit, but holy kitten, it lacks in the defense region. There’s a reason they say ‘hit the necro first’. Because there usually isn’t kitten they can do about it.

(Before you say it, condi necros have terrible life force generation, they don’t have 2 life bars, its hell to fill up and doesn’t fill out of combat, and at least of it is required to store incase you later need an emergency doom cast. Most wvw builds have either 0 or 1 stun break, on average condi necro have 19k-22k hp and NO vigor, evades, hardly ANY mobility including keeping people from fleeing you, no blocks, we lose out on friendly healing when using death shroud and specifically condi, the most common necromancer doesn’t do much damage when in death shroud, they’re just waiting out their death sentence. They can’t even stomp while in DS while an ele can in mist form and a Mesmer can with distortion…)

Critical infusion nerf is well needed – one of the most powerful 5pt traits.

With the sigil change, providing sigil of energy stays similar to how it is now, just put a sigil of energy on every weapon (plus whatever else you like).

Curunen.8729:

Critical infusion nerf is well needed – one of the most powerful 5pt traits.

With the sigil change, providing sigil of energy stays similar to how it is now, just put a sigil of energy on every weapon (plus whatever else you like).

mesmers are already playing with energy on both weapon sets already so much won’t change there, altho energy sigils are probably getting nerfed aswell :>

Vuh.1328:

Curunen.8729:

Critical infusion nerf is well needed – one of the most powerful 5pt traits.

With the sigil change, providing sigil of energy stays similar to how it is now, just put a sigil of energy on every weapon (plus whatever else you like).

mesmers are already playing with energy on both weapon sets already so much won’t change there, altho energy sigils are probably getting nerfed aswell :>

True they could be ruined by the patch. I don’t use energy currently anyway.

Just giving options – the trait is definitely too powerful. If it harms illusion generation, then the class can be tweaked to provide them in some other way.

Why do I get the feeling that a lot of this is due to PU.

Shatter/phantasm do not have too many defense options, it’s only PU which becomes untouchable between spamming stealth, aegis, blocks and evades ontop of that.

Why do they add in OP trash traits and then balance around that

azuzephyr.7280:

Why do I get the feeling that a lot of this is due to PU.

Shatter/phantasm do not have too many defense options, it’s only PU which becomes untouchable between spamming stealth, aegis, blocks and evades ontop of that.

Why do they add in OP trash traits and then balance around that

That needs nerfing too, more than anything.

But CI was inevitable/overdue considering all the other classes.

There are a lot of traits long overdue for review, in the endless list of broken/OP/useless traits and abilities critical infusion is so low on the radar that it barely even qualifies.

It double sucks because depending on how much of a cut this turns out to be it’s only going to push people more towards using PU troll junkspec if GS/sword builds are hit too hard.

ronpierce.2760:

glaphen.5230:

jportell.2197:

Just wanna say I counted about 16-17 evades (there were so many) in the 15 seconds that countless was in the video….
Yeah mesmer vigor is so broken.

Professional counting right there. Video was 10 seconds long with 11 evades total and he needed 4 seconds before he could use one more evade.

A thief can technically build to gain initiative on swap, endurance on heal via runes, 2x energy sigils on 2x shortbow etc lol. I mean sure… It’s not the best killer but c’mon.. That kitten doesn’t belong in a 3A mmorpg… That’s to be embarassed about.

I was in a Thief-only tournament a few months ago and one of the players (whose name is sadly lost to time) took an Sb/Sb Thief. He was so successful that others who were spectating were begging for him to get knocked out or barred so they wouldn’t have to face him. I don’t know that it means anything but it’s one of my most amusing memories.

winning

HAHAHAHAHAHA, honestly this just highlights the level of balance anet does.

First – thanks for the video, its hilarious!

Second – for people saying the trait should just be made harder to get, realize that shatter builds can simply be 10/20/0/10/30 now taking vigor on shatter, which would have the same effect as moving the trait to a defensive line. You still get 50% vigor uptime for FREE if you don’t want to take the trait in Inspiration. It raises the risk/reward tradeoff and hopefully discourages 100% full-glass builds which would be an issue if they fixed thief.

That being said, thief does need a SERIOUS fix. It is by FAR an APEX predator and has NO REASON to take defense as the profession mechanic of just avoiding all damage doesn’t scale well with defensive stats.

Romek.4201:

….

same for 1 spamming sword rangerz
..

maybe i play the wrong game. but there is no evade on mainhandsword for rangers.
hornet sting-> recharge 8 secs
serpents strike -> 15 secs
stalkers strike -> 10 secs
quick shot -> 9 secs

there is only 1 evade on greatsword aa. the 3 attack in the chain. if u played ever ranger u would know thats not a reliable evade u can count on to avoid something important. the complete chain needs 2.56 secs

…and what did that thief accomplish by dumping his entire ini into dodge? He certanly didn’t do any dmg, he won’t have enough ini to do anything meaningfull for a while, he wasted his heal on another dodge. Now compare it to current mesmers that spam dodges non stop to poop as much AI as possible that actually do considerable dmg. And all this mesmer dodging doesn’t actually put their other spells on CD like it does for thief when the spam sb 3.

I am guessing Countless supposed to be someone “important” yet he doesn’t grasp total difference between sb3 spam and mes dodge spam? I am speechless.

Dagins.5163:

Personally, guardians continously shielding themselves with random aegis popping here and there kitten me off more than evade thieves. Not to mention they can heal from 20%->100% hp as opposed to thieves, and it cannot be interrupted.

Random Aegis is once every 30/40 seconds if Virtue of Courage is not activated plus another one at 50% health (with 90 second ICD).
Usually you’ll face 5 Aegis when fighting a Guardian: one at the very beginning (shouldn’t be a problem), one at 50% health (quite random), one right after Renewed Focus (shouldn’t be a problem), and 2 VoC activations (which are not random, but active like any blind or evade).

About the healing, please, tell me you’re not talking about Shelter …
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw

Cynz.9437:

…and what did that thief accomplish by dumping his entire ini into dodge? He certanly didn’t do any dmg, he won’t have enough ini to do anything meaningfull for a while, he wasted his heal on another dodge. Now compare it to current mesmers that spam dodges non stop to poop as much AI as possible that actually do considerable dmg. And all this mesmer dodging doesn’t actually put their other spells on CD like it does for thief when the spam sb 3.

I am guessing Countless supposed to be someone “important” yet he doesn’t grasp total difference between sb3 spam and mes dodge spam? I am speechless.

The thief can dodge as much as a mesmer and much more if he wants too. Clones summoned by mesmers doding do not do considerable damage, not even close to it.