Guild Wars 2

Before someone pipes up that “PvP isn’t balanced around 1v1”, I hope we can all agree that 1v1’s happen all the time. Condi engi wants to take home at the start of a match? Too bad, a diamond skin ele decided to push far. At best, its a tactical blunder for a voice-comms team; at worst, it ends in obliteration for a PUG.

The Diamond Skin trait is extremely passive, it isn’t build defining in the least, and it has no counterplay from pure condi builds. Should we really be encouraging people who want to run carrion or rabid to run more cele just so they can get an ele to 90%?

On the other side of the token, the trait does absolutely nothing for the ele for the duration of a team fight and/or when your health isn’t sky-high, which makes a GM trait useless for a huge portion of the fight. That doesn’t sound right at all. Some rework should be implemented in order to:
1) Prevent a single trait from hard-countering an entire build “genre” (condi)
2) Make the trait slightly more “build-defining,” requiring active and/or synergistic play to prevent/remove condi’s, rather than passive play.
3) Make the trait functional at all times. Currently, Diamond Skin acts as an invincibility shield when fighting condi builds or any soft-cc openers, but does absolutely nothing otherwise.

For example, all of the above points could be easily addressed by changing Diamond Skin to: “Gain 3 seconds of Resistance when attuning to Earth”
for example, or something much more clever, but basically anything along those lines.

Already been brought up several times in the last 3 months, wouldn’t surprise me if this is part of the ele nerf that’s supposedly happening.

haven’t seen a single diamond skin ele during august.

the reason why diamond skin is no resistance is because resistance can be corrupted/stripped and for the same reason berserker stanced wasn’t changed to resistance either.

there is something called rotation, if you go for 1v1s you rotate the best class for that matchup to that given point. condi engi vs diamond skin ele is a fairly bad matchup, so just don’t rotate that way. condi engi has also a disadvantage against necros with transfers/conditions, necro has no diamond skin and still you shouldn’t send the condi engi against it.

Diamond skin, contrary to popular belief is actually very active. (At least without water magic).

Moreover, it is also build-defining or can become build defining when the idea is pushed far. Some irregular elementalist builds without cantrips are also viable because of this trait. I use it myself for such builds.

Clearing a condition when you apply protection to yourself has also been proposed. You can see the discussion about it here.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/A-real-solution-to-Diamond-Skin/first#post5419037

Jekkt.6045:

haven’t seen a single diamond skin ele during august.

the reason why diamond skin is no resistance is because resistance can be corrupted/stripped and for the same reason berserker stanced wasn’t changed to resistance either.

there is something called rotation, if you go for 1v1s you rotate the best class for that matchup to that given point. condi engi vs diamond skin ele is a fairly bad matchup, so just don’t rotate that way. condi engi has also a disadvantage against necros with transfers/conditions, necro has no diamond skin and still you shouldn’t send the condi engi against it.

I agree. Signet Necro with Plague Signet are much more dangerous than a Diamond Skin Elementalist when faced with a condition build.

Jekkt.6045:

…the reason why diamond skin is no resistance is because resistance can be corrupted/stripped and for the same reason berserker stanced wasn’t changed to resistance either.

Heaven forbid the trait offers counterplay, right? So should Necro’s Foot in The Grave stability be incorruptible to fear? Why should Diamond Skin be different from almost every other trait? Resistance is also affected by boon duration, so it’s actually a double-edged sword.

Jekkt.6045:

there is something called rotation, if you go for 1v1s you rotate the best class for that matchup to that given point. condi engi vs diamond skin ele is a fairly bad matchup, so just don’t rotate that way. condi engi has also a disadvantage against necros with transfers/conditions, necro has no diamond skin and still you shouldn’t send the condi engi against it.

This analogy is misleading. Condi engi vs. necro is a bad matchup because it’s heavily favored to the Necro. The engi can win, however, by outplaying the necro and baiting transfers, for example. Condi engi vs. diamond skin ele is not a bad matchup, its an unwinnable, one-sided matchup. The condi engi has no opportunity to outplay the ele and win.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Already been brought up several times in the last 3 months, wouldn’t surprise me if this is part of the ele nerf that’s supposedly happening.

I’m all for Diamond Skin rework but your post gave me nightmares.

Signet necro also hard counters condi builds which is a problem in itself but condi players do have a chance if they use LoS, dodge, or block to get the necro to waste atleast one of their three transfers. Diamond skin ele is simply impossible to kill alone.

EDIT: Also, wth?

“Plague Sending: This trait will no longer attempt to activate Plague Signet if the player is either out of range or does not have a line of sight to the target.”

We want more counterplay, Anet. Not less.

Salamander.2504:

Jekkt.6045:

…the reason why diamond skin is no resistance is because resistance can be corrupted/stripped and for the same reason berserker stanced wasn’t changed to resistance either.

Heaven forbid the trait offers counterplay, right? So should Necro’s Foot in The Grave stability be incorruptible to fear? Why should Diamond Skin be different from almost every other trait? Resistance is also affected by boon duration, so it’s actually a double-edged sword.

Jekkt.6045:

there is something called rotation, if you go for 1v1s you rotate the best class for that matchup to that given point. condi engi vs diamond skin ele is a fairly bad matchup, so just don’t rotate that way. condi engi has also a disadvantage against necros with transfers/conditions, necro has no diamond skin and still you shouldn’t send the condi engi against it.

This analogy is misleading. Condi engi vs. necro is a bad matchup because it’s heavily favored to the Necro. The engi can win, however, by outplaying the necro and baiting transfers, for example. Condi engi vs. diamond skin ele is not a bad matchup, its an unwinnable, one-sided matchup. The condi engi has no opportunity to outplay the ele and win.

it was already suggested to make foot in the grave into a break bar. diamond skin does have counterplay, namely in the form of 1700 hitpoints.

the problem for the engi is that he will be running with rabid while condi necros and condi rangers are running carrion, those builds can indeed peel off those 10% hitpoints to condibomb an ele.

it’s hard to believe but it’s the engi’s own fault. nades per se would have enough direct damage if he wasn’t running a build with 0 power.

then again most classes will not be able to kill a staff ele in 1v1 anyway, staff ele because they are more likely to run diamond skin even if they actually don’t even need it.

now don’t get me wrong, i’m not a fan of diamond. it’s a wasted grandmaster that could be something more useful. if you pick it then it’s a situational pick, most of the time forced because you fight against multiple condi builds. 99% of the time it will not be picked and will not benefit you.

Hammerguard.9834:

Signet necro also hard counters condi builds which is a problem in itself but condi players do have a chance if they use LoS, dodge, or block to get the necro to waste atleast one of their three transfers. Diamond skin ele is simply impossible to kill alone.

EDIT: Also, wth?

“Plague Sending: This trait will no longer attempt to activate Plague Signet if the player is either out of range or does not have a line of sight to the target.”

We want more counterplay, Anet. Not less.

The change to Plague Sending specifically was due to possible interactions with Mark skills. Basically, if the situation is such that Plague Signet could not function, it doesn’t. However, if, for example, an unblockable attack (Soul Marks, Wells, or Dark Path) crits on a blocking foe, the Plague Sending will still be blocked.

TLDR: Counterplay is still the same, but wierd outlier scenarios like a stray Mark of Blood won’t send it into cooldown when it literally can’t work.

I’m just saying that if player were to use LoS to avoid the passive proc, it should work. If blocking an unblockable mark is the only way to avoid it then there’s a problem.

Hammerguard.9834:

I’m just saying that if player were to use LoS to avoid the passive proc, it should work. If blocking an unblockable mark is the only way to avoid it then there’s a problem.

Except that LoS would normally be preventing the Necro from critting you in the first place.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Hammerguard.9834:

I’m just saying that if player were to use LoS to avoid the passive proc, it should work. If blocking an unblockable mark is the only way to avoid it then there’s a problem.

Except that LoS would normally be preventing the Necro from critting you in the first place.

unless the necro was using some aoe mark to hit you
or ds 4

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Hammerguard.9834:

I’m just saying that if player were to use LoS to avoid the passive proc, it should work. If blocking an unblockable mark is the only way to avoid it then there’s a problem.

Except that LoS would normally be preventing the Necro from critting you in the first place.

unless the necro was using some aoe mark to hit you
or ds 4

Life Transfer still respects LoS, though Transfusion, interestingly, does not. This change has extremely little actual effect on counterplay.

It also is not the focus of this thread.

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

While this is technically a solution to the problem, it really misses the point: people want to play how they want to play. Just because people can go power to avoid getting shafted by diamond skin doesn’t justify a single trait making an entire class of builds obsolete.

Salamander.2504:

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

While this is technically a solution to the problem, it really misses the point: people want to play how they want to play. Just because people can go power to avoid getting shafted by diamond skin doesn’t justify a single trait making an entire class of builds obsolete.

What about condi transfer necros? Is it ok for them to hard counter every other condi build out there?

It’s the same concept really, so a condi build will lose to signet necro as much as to DS eles, your chance of victory against both is rather similar

Supreme.3164:

Salamander.2504:

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

While this is technically a solution to the problem, it really misses the point: people want to play how they want to play. Just because people can go power to avoid getting shafted by diamond skin doesn’t justify a single trait making an entire class of builds obsolete.

What about condi transfer necros? Is it ok for them to hard counter every other condi build out there?

It’s the same concept really, so a condi build will lose to signet necro as much as to DS eles, your chance of victory against both is rather similar

What about condi transfer necros? Condi transfer necro’s have plenty of counterplay: you can block, dodge, LOS the transfers, or bait the tranfers with wimpy conditions before you send in the condi bomb. If a condi build outplays the necro, they can win. This isn’t even hypothetical in the least, people do it every day.

Diamond Skin ele, on the other hand has no counterplay—the condi user can outplay the ele all they want. The fact remains that most rabid builds won’t be able to shave off 10% health.

The chance of winning against a Diamond Skin ele is 0%. A condi build has a much higher chance of victory against a transfer necro.

“Hard” counters are fine. Lack of counterplay to them is not.

Diamond skin now gives 2 seconds of resistance upon switching elements.

Tada, problem solved while giving eles some much-needed new technology.

Salamander.2504:

Supreme.3164:

Salamander.2504:

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

While this is technically a solution to the problem, it really misses the point: people want to play how they want to play. Just because people can go power to avoid getting shafted by diamond skin doesn’t justify a single trait making an entire class of builds obsolete.

What about condi transfer necros? Is it ok for them to hard counter every other condi build out there?

It’s the same concept really, so a condi build will lose to signet necro as much as to DS eles, your chance of victory against both is rather similar

What about condi transfer necros? Condi transfer necro’s have plenty of counterplay: you can block, dodge, LOS the transfers, or bait the tranfers with wimpy conditions before you send in the condi bomb. If a condi build outplays the necro, they can win. This isn’t even hypothetical in the least, people do it every day.

Diamond Skin ele, on the other hand has no counterplay—the condi user can outplay the ele all they want. The fact remains that most rabid builds won’t be able to shave off 10% health.

The chance of winning against a Diamond Skin ele is 0%. A condi build has a much higher chance of victory against a transfer necro.

“Hard” counters are fine. Lack of counterplay to them is not.

You don’t outplay the ele at all if you can’t shave 10% off his HP but…nvm this, rather I’d like to focus on another aspect : complete lack of condi build hard counter; as you say it’s fine to have hard counter as long as they have counterplay.

Therefore I suggest to keep the hard counter aspect of Diamond skin with the following change :reduce condition duration by 66% while in earth no reqs for the trait to work, just like stone heart.

Your counterplay in this case? Force the ele out of earth, he can’t heal, do dmg or anything else while in earth anyway.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Diamond skin now gives 2 seconds of resistance upon switching elements.

Tada, problem solved while giving eles some much-needed new technology.

Don’t give eles more boons…seriously being a boon centric profession is more of a curse than a blessing, I’d rather have a flat condi reduction by percentage as long as the ele sits in earth

Yeah, the two suggestions above are a great example of a trait that could work.

Supreme.3164:

You don’t outplay the ele at all if you can’t shave 10% off his HP

As an example, a condi ranger (rabid) spamming sword 1 (the highest dmg coefficient attack they have) will never get an ele’s health below 10%—there is never an opportunity to outplay them to begin with.

There is 0 chance for a condi build to kill an ele with diamond skin, ofc this is not a 1vs 1 game but still , this trait kill a full build, no counterplay.
I do play all builds on my necro apart from MM, but when im on a condi build and i come across an ele with such trait i just run and nex game i rerrol power or support, its very upseting this trait vs power is bad and vs condi is god mode.
This is even worse then the old automated response.
Zerker stance is bad also imo but at least its a 8 second skil.
I really hope anet gives some counterplay vs this trait if u r condi.

Jekkt.6045:

haven’t seen a single diamond skin ele during august.

Because there isn’t a condi meta other than maybe Guardian. If there were, the meta would shift towards Diamond Skin and obliterate the condi meta.

Jekkt.6045:

the reason why diamond skin is no resistance is because resistance can be corrupted/stripped and for the same reason berserker stanced wasn’t changed to resistance either.

Exactly how many classes in the game can effectively strip a boon or remove a boon from a class? I can think of only 2 that can do so effectively.

Jekkt.6045:

there is something called rotation, if you go for 1v1s you rotate the best class for that matchup to that given point. condi engi vs diamond skin ele is a fairly bad matchup, so just don’t rotate that way. condi engi has also a disadvantage against necros with transfers/conditions, necro has no diamond skin and still you shouldn’t send the condi engi against it.

“Best class for that matcup” is considered a profession that has a better chance of beating another profession. Diamond Skin counter’s an entire build type, NOT a particular class. It’s why the trait needs a rework because there is no condi build type in the game that can beat Diamond Skin.

A good matchup for a signet necro would be an Ele. That’s a soft counter. Signet Necro build doesn’t hard counter anything. It definitely doesn’t counter an entire build type like Power, Sustains(tanks) or Condition builds.

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

How about you don’t play 100% power.
But hey, you’re not fretting because there isn’t a single trait in the game that works the same as Diamond Skin does.

Before the inexperienced players say it, no, Stone Heart is no where near the same level… it doesn’t completely counter Power based builds.

Diamond Skin is a poorly designed that needs a rework.

Saiyan.1704:

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

How about you don’t play 100% power.
But hey, you’re not fretting because there isn’t a single trait in the game that works the same as Diamond Skin does.

Before the inexperienced players say it, no, Stone Heart is no where near the same level… it doesn’t completely counter Power based builds.

Diamond Skin is a poorly designed that needs a rework.

If you’re gonna quote me, atleast be on topic or don’t put words in my mouth.

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

I don’t play 100% power. Please read what is written or stop cutting out context for your own sake. It immediately discredits anything you have to say.

I can say it again for you in bold in case you have reading problems or eye sight problems.

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

Tbh sig necro is indeed a hard counter to condis.

Hammerguard.9834:

Tbh sig necro is indeed a hard counter to condis.

Hard counter, yes, but condition builds can still win with out-playing the Necro. For example, 1 stack of vuln, bleeding, and a cripple will proc Plague Sending for barely any effect, so that’s one key transfer wasted.

I’ve run the numbers before on Diamond Skin and, at least on Necro, the condi build (using Carrion gear, FYI, so decent Power) actually can’t beat a Diamond Skin ele sitting in water attunement and doing nothing but auto-attack (not even moving around or dodging). The ele heals up the little bit of direct damage too fast for the Necro to break Diamond Skin.

This trait is probably the one most in need of a rework in the entire game. It needs actual counterplay, but it also needs to be more useful against a greater variety of builds.

I don’t get the issue here. Why even argue that Diamond Skin is ok. It’s obviously not. No one is asking for a nerf, just a rework on a poorly designed trait that gives condi builds a chance and allowss the trait to be more useful to Eles outside of a 1v1 duel against a condi build.

Hammerguard.9834:

Tbh sig necro is indeed a hard counter to condis.

It’s not.
Signet Necro is a soft counter to condition classes.
Diamond Skin is a hard counter to condition classes.

Signet Necro is an entire build type than needs certain traits and utility skills to function properly.
…DH is just a single trait from one traitline.

sephiroth.4217:

Saiyan.1704:

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

How about you don’t play 100% power.
But hey, you’re not fretting because there isn’t a single trait in the game that works the same as Diamond Skin does.

Before the inexperienced players say it, no, Stone Heart is no where near the same level… it doesn’t completely counter Power based builds.

Diamond Skin is a poorly designed that needs a rework.

If you’re gonna quote me, atleast be on topic or don’t put words in my mouth.

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

I don’t play 100% power. Please read what is written or stop cutting out context for your own sake. It immediately discredits anything you have to say.

I can say it again for you in bold in case you have reading problems or eye sight problems.

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

@Sephiroth
My initial notion remains.

If Stone Heart was on the same level as DH then YOU will be incredibly anoyed (because you use power builds too) as well as everyone else. That would have a larger effect as power is meta.. not condi. Then I would be giving you the same response,
“Don’t play 100% power.”

By the way, next time elaborate your original paragraph instead of posting it 3 times. If you reitterate what you’re trying to say, then 1) you wont sound so insulting and 2) people will understand you better. Once you work in a professional environment and develope public relations, you’ll understand.

This whole pvp is about hard/soft counter. You want go full condi ok. But than dont fight 1vs1 with diamont skin ele.
I want go full glass canon on my ele/necro/war. But than I will not go to forum and cry for thief/mesmer nerf because they eat me for breakfast from stealth.

Alhadin.4032:

This whole pvp is about hard/soft counter. You want go full condi ok. But than dont fight 1vs1 with diamont skin ele.
I want go full glass canon on my ele/necro/war. But than I will not go to forum and cry for thief/mesmer nerf because they eat me for breakfast from stealth.

You confuse counters and balance.

No on my thief or mesmer I hard counter any other full glass cannon.

Not saying I like this. :-(

Alhadin.4032:

No on my thief or mesmer I hard counter any other full glass cannon.

That doesn’t make it okay. It simply means some specs are not on the level they should be, either overpowered or underpowered. While it’s okay to have some counters in the game, it’s not okay to have specs that totally kittens on rest.

Laraley.7695:

Alhadin.4032:

No on my thief or mesmer I hard counter any other full glass cannon.

That doesn’t make it okay. It simply means some specs are not on the level they should be, either overpowered or underpowered. While it’s okay to have some counters in the game, it’s not okay to have specs that totally kittens on rest.

I dont like it myself but it is where this game is heading with anet on stear

Alhadin.4032:

This whole pvp is about hard/soft counter. You want go full condi ok. But than dont fight 1vs1 with diamont skin ele.
I want go full glass canon on my ele/necro/war. But than I will not go to forum and cry for thief/mesmer nerf because they eat me for breakfast from stealth.

Glass cannon Ele/Necro/War may have a lesser win rate against a glass thief or mesmer but thats still a soft counter, not a hard counter. Heck, a power guard can down a mesmer or thief if they’re not careful.

A glass thief or mesmer can get downed incredibly easy when you 2v1 them…
Have 2 or 3 condi classes 2v1 or 3v1 a DS Ele in the same way…you just wont down that Ele. That’s called a Hard Counter.

No other aspect in this game is like DS. There’s no justification for it.

No other aspect in this game is like……….. insert what you want.
I dont like this trait myself. And IF I take earth line, there is much better grandmaster trait then DS.

“Have 2 or 3 condi classes 2v1 or 3v1 a DS Ele in the same way”
Why on earth do you have 2-3 condi classes on one team? And 2vs1 you eat 1500 health anyway.

Alhadin.4032:

No other aspect in this game is like……….. insert what you want.
I dont like this trait myself. And IF I take earth line, there is much better grandmaster trait then DS.

“Have 2 or 3 condi classes 2v1 or 3v1 a DS Ele in the same way”
Why on earth do you have 2-3 condi classes on one team? And 2vs1 you eat 1500 health anyway.

Which is another reason to change the trait.

Let’s face it: nobody likes the trait as it is. People fighting the Ele don’t like it because, if it applies, they literally can’t do anything and have no chance of winning that fight. Eles don’t like it because unless they are fighting a condi build, the trait does absolutely nothing.

So, the trait needs a rework to be less binary.

Alhadin.4032:

No other aspect in this game is like……….. insert what you want.

Wrong. This is in regards to trait performances, not mechanics. Grab any trait that’s suppose to have a certain function. DS goes above and beyond that function. It completely counters a build type. Not a class like.. a thief or guard or necro.. a build. All Condi.

Alhadin.4032:

“Have 2 or 3 condi classes 2v1 or 3v1 a DS Ele in the same way”
Why on earth do you have 2-3 condi classes on one team?

That right there, is a misconception that people have. Like it or not, this game has 3 build types: Power, Condi, and Sustains. They’re all equally viable. Mix and match them to suite your playstyle.

DS is a trait that counters condition builds.
There is no trait that counters power builds.
Signet Necro can potwntually soft counter heavy boon sustains. Still, not a hard counter.

You can’t justify Diamond Skin.

If you focus solely in condi damage then your the one taking the risk but to QQ because said class counters me is ridiculous. DS is very situational. Strong vs a condi build but useless vs a power build. Far from Overpowered. Smart players have no problem dealing with it. Your the one that wants to run the condi flavor of the month if you cant do 1500 damage and save your condi burst till after. Then maybe you should reconsider your strat.

Forsaken.7015:

If you focus solely in condi damage then your the one taking the risk but to QQ because said class counters me is ridiculous. DS is very situational. Strong vs a condi build but useless vs a power build. Far from Overpowered. Smart players have no problem dealing with it. Your the one that wants to run the condi flavor of the month if you cant do 1500 damage and save your condi burst till after. Then maybe you should reconsider your strat.

Maybe you should listen to what is actually being said. Diamond Skin is horribly designed on two fronts.

1. It guarantees wins against entire build types. This isn’t having a strong advantage in a fight, this is literally a garunteed victory. This functionality is horridly OP.

2. It is worthless in any other fight. This isn’t reduced effectiveness, it is no effect. This functionality is horridly UP.

Changing the trait would fix both problems. The trait would ideally no longer guarantee wins against condition builds, but it would also be a good defensive option against other builds that use conditions as side-effects, like immobilize or weakness.

Your apparently missing my point you notice when I said smart players have no problem dealing with it. It is not a “guaranteed win” If you fail to have direct damage in your build then you have essentially put all your eggs in one basket shame on you. He may win the fight but this is a team based game if you realize the fight will be lost you rotate. Once you know the build you know how to deal with it and if its a counter to your build you +1 the build or rotate around it. Work smarter not harder.

Forsaken.7015:

Your apparently missing my point you notice when I said smart players have no problem dealing with it. It is not a “guaranteed win” If you fail to have direct damage in your build then you have essentially put all your eggs in one basket shame on you. He may win the fight but this is a team based game if you realize the fight will be lost you rotate. Once you know the build you know how to deal with it and if its a counter to your build you +1 the build or rotate around it. Work smarter not harder.

So, is a shatterburst mesmer putting all of their eggs in one basket? What if they run into someone who is permanently under the effects of Endure Pain? Shouldn’t they have some condition damage in their build? Of course, so shame on them for not having it.

Oh wait…the game doesn’t work like that.

So now your arguing what ifs… perma endure pain… DS isnt perm its only 1500 hp thats it. So if you have some direct damage wait till the hp drops save your condi burst then use it when its effective. Problem solved but now where back at the point I originally made smart players know how to deal with it, and on the power its not a condition or a secondary stat but can be countered by weakness endure pain there are several invuls not to mention you die very easily if you make a mistake.

Sad that changes keep getting made to cater to casual players that dont think about what they are doing and just QQ…. end rant

Forsaken.7015:

So now your arguing what ifs… perma endure pain… DS isnt perm its only 1500 hp thats it. So if you have some direct damage wait till the hp drops save your condi burst then use it when its effective. Problem solved but now where back at the point I originally made smart players know how to deal with it, and on the power its not a condition or a secondary stat but can be countered by weakness endure pain there are several invuls not to mention you die very easily if you make a mistake.

Sad that changes keep getting made to cater to casual players that dont think about what they are doing and just QQ…. end rant

Here’s the thing: that 1700 hp is incredibly difficult to break, even for Carrion builds. The Ele keeps healing back up faster than it can be dealt. In fact, it’s usually impossible, as the Ele’s healing/second is higher than a Carrion build’s physical DPS.

So what are the counters to the constant healing? Well, Poison. Which…can’t be applied. Hmmm.

Okay, what else? Hard CC like Fear…oh wait. Well, I suppose you can immobilize them to set up what limited Power burst you do have. Crap, that’s negated too.

Condition builds cannot break this trait, even taking Power as a secondary stat. This isn’t a “Oh, well, if you outplay.” No. This is a literal impossibility. The healing/second of a Celestial Diamond Skin ele with Signet of Restoration just sitting in water attunement and auto-attacking (with no other actions) is higher than the direct DPS of a Carrion build. Diamond Skin cannot be broken.

In the slim chance of a long string of lucky crits (remember, no Precision), the ele finally has to do something else, which usually could just be “dodge roll to proc Cleansing Water, putting you well above the threshold as well as cleansing whatever they did manage to put on.” So, not only is the effort of maintaining the DS trivial, restoring it when it gets broken is pitifully easy.

Can you out-rotate? Not usually. Condition builds tend to have fairly poor mobility (Mesmers being an exception). In live environments, you frequently have to deal with teammates being occupied or reinforcements being delayed.

Diamond Skin Ele vs. Condition build is the only matchup in the entire game where the result is a foregone conclusion. You can’t out-play it, and you can’t brute-force it.

And yet, against anyone else, the trait barely does anything at all.

So why do people continue to defend this trait’s current incarnation? What people have been arguing is to make the trait more intelligent, removing the niche auto-win while still making it good in those situations and making it good against everything else as well.

I have no problems fighting it maybe ill give you my notes so you can learn how to deal with it. I also used to main ele so I understand how its played witch makes it easier for me to fight it. Maybe you should try harder if you think its a gimmie win your sadly mistaken. Half the people I c cry about it dont know what it even is they ask in team chat why they cant apply a condition…. Scream hacks but put in some time learn it and it will get easier for you its not as overpowered as you think it is strong but I personally don’t see anything wrong with it. I don’t personally run it cause I prefer fire over earth. Just because its a gimmie win vs you don’t mean its always a gimmie win. Instead of looking for handouts and nerfs try harder. Gamers these days…

Are people actually saying condi transfer Necro is worse to condition builds than ds ele? You can actually outplay a condi tranfser Necro, but a ds ele can literally smash his face on the keyboard and win. Even hybrid builds struggle vs ds ele nowadays.

Saiyan.1704:

sephiroth.4217:

Saiyan.1704:

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

How about you don’t play 100% power.
But hey, you’re not fretting because there isn’t a single trait in the game that works the same as Diamond Skin does.

Before the inexperienced players say it, no, Stone Heart is no where near the same level… it doesn’t completely counter Power based builds.

Diamond Skin is a poorly designed that needs a rework.

If you’re gonna quote me, atleast be on topic or don’t put words in my mouth.

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

I don’t play 100% power. Please read what is written or stop cutting out context for your own sake. It immediately discredits anything you have to say.

I can say it again for you in bold in case you have reading problems or eye sight problems.

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

@Sephiroth
My initial notion remains.

If Stone Heart was on the same level as DH then YOU will be incredibly anoyed (because you use power builds too) as well as everyone else. That would have a larger effect as power is meta.. not condi. Then I would be giving you the same response,
“Don’t play 100% power.”

By the way, next time elaborate your original paragraph instead of posting it 3 times. If you reitterate what you’re trying to say, then 1) you wont sound so insulting and 2) people will understand you better. Once you work in a professional environment and develope public relations, you’ll understand.

You’re the only person who seems to have misunderstood mate.

It was very clear what I said to everyone else, you’re just looking for an argument and I’m not interested. My point still stands.

(I do work in a professional environment, I have children too and they, just like you, feel they are entitled to everything apparently and want everyone else to fix things for them)

But for elaboration of the obvious: If you’re 100% condition and a diamond skin ele is your enemy, DO NOT engage 1v1 or bother with that cap point, move on and help elsewhere, there are 4 other enemies you can beat up… wait for team fights and condi nuke them if you must, keep rotating and applying pressure else where. Playing the game logically will far outweigh demanding nerfs because 1 profession can counter you, who counters you after you remove DS? not alot unfortunately, 3 years of the game and people can’t accept that rock beats scissors.

Now as for what I said: I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.
I generally play condition builds, it’s lazy and I find it hilarious I can stack 20+ burn stacks, when a diamond skin ele pops up, I do what I said earlier, I wait for team fights, I rotate and nuke everyone else instead. It does annoy me that I’m hard countered, but I accept that and adjust my playstyle.

NOW AS FOR SH BEING ON THE SAME LEVEL:: I would again adjust my playstyle, wait for ele to leave earth or wait for a condition player to take off 1700 hp or what ever before I burst, I would apply pressure to the other 4 players and keep rotating…

I wouldn’t call for nerfs, but then again I enjoy earning my kills and the most interesting part about the game to me is the fact you have to constantly adjust your playstle every game to be effective.

(if you’re trolling, nice work, I feel like that explanation was unnecessary)

Saiyan.1704:

Alhadin.4032:

No other aspect in this game is like……….. insert what you want.

Wrong. This is in regards to trait performances, not mechanics. Grab any trait that’s suppose to have a certain function. DS goes above and beyond that function. It completely counters a build type. Not a class like.. a thief or guard or necro.. a build. All Condi.

Alhadin.4032:

“Have 2 or 3 condi classes 2v1 or 3v1 a DS Ele in the same way”
Why on earth do you have 2-3 condi classes on one team?

That right there, is a misconception that people have. Like it or not, this game has 3 build types: Power, Condi, and Sustains. They’re all equally viable. Mix and match them to suite your playstyle.

DS is a trait that counters condition builds.
There is no trait that counters power builds.
Signet Necro can potwntually soft counter heavy boon sustains. Still, not a hard counter.

You can’t justify Diamond Skin.

There is a trait that makes you immune to crit.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Saiyan.1704:

Alhadin.4032:

No other aspect in this game is like……….. insert what you want.

Wrong. This is in regards to trait performances, not mechanics. Grab any trait that’s suppose to have a certain function. DS goes above and beyond that function. It completely counters a build type. Not a class like.. a thief or guard or necro.. a build. All Condi.

Alhadin.4032:

“Have 2 or 3 condi classes 2v1 or 3v1 a DS Ele in the same way”
Why on earth do you have 2-3 condi classes on one team?

That right there, is a misconception that people have. Like it or not, this game has 3 build types: Power, Condi, and Sustains. They’re all equally viable. Mix and match them to suite your playstyle.

DS is a trait that counters condition builds.
There is no trait that counters power builds.
Signet Necro can potwntually soft counter heavy boon sustains. Still, not a hard counter.

You can’t justify Diamond Skin.

There is a trait that makes you immune to crit.

You have to be stuck in Earth for that trait to take effect. If Ele’s stay in Earth, then they will do little to no damage. If Stone Heart was on the same level as DS, Earth would be meta and people would go ballistic.