Guild Wars 2

nobody tells you to not take DS poor victim ele, but DS has to work differently thats all.

It is called a REWORK, of course if DS is modified Devs will give you something else to manage condition, don’t be stupid, try to be constructive plz…

Ross Biddle.2367:

ReaperJr.5967:

Every diamond skin ‘rework’ advocate ever: “Oh it’s too binary so it’s bad design so let’s ‘rework’ it by nerfing how it fares against conditions. What about how it still doesn’t do anything against power builds, you say? Let’s just ignore that (since all I want is a nerf anyway).”

Actually Diamond Skin effects power builds too by keeping any initial application of vuln, cripple, chill, imob off the target. Vuln in particular means a direct damage loss for the power user (and vuln was originally there for power). All CC conditions exist to either slow the target down, or allow the power user to engage upon/burst the target. So as a completely free moving entity the Diamond Skin ele is making use of a HUGE advantage over the power user. Both his damage, and his ability to land said damage.

Diamond skin has always, and will continue to be a broken mechanic that needs changing.

Wow, you’re kidding right? Your argument is so cherry picked I’m stunned speechless. You forget that this ‘immunity’ you speak of only exists above 90% hp. And all existing meta power builds have more than enough capability to drop an ele below 90% hp before applying said conditions. Therefore, diamond skin only works on the following premises:

1. The power user requires soft cc to land majority of it’s damage
2. The power user is unable to drop the ele below 90% hp before applying said conditions

If either were false, your argument would be moot. Like it is. So no, there is likely no advantage that diamond skin provides against power builds. And if any, it is minute and definitely not a HUGE advantage.

ReaperJr.5967:

1. The power user requires soft cc to land majority of it’s damage

With the extreme abundance of evade, block and other defense frames, soft CC including immob, chill and weakness is extremely helpful in securing direct damage.

ReaperJr.5967:

2. The power user is unable to drop the ele below 90% hp before applying said conditions

Depending on the class, this is entirely possible. Necromancers in general are highly dependent on using controlling conditions including Fear to secure their damage.

ReaperJr.5967:

If either were false, your argument would be moot. Like it is. So no, there is likely no advantage that diamond skin provides against power builds. And if any, it is minute and definitely not a HUGE advantage.

If you really think that being immune to controlling conditions above that health threshold, which you are likely to be in at multiple times in a fight even against a pure power user, has absolutely no effect, you are not paying attention.

Supreme.3164:

Tempest meta is what is keeping many other specs from being nerfed

So, where’s the downside? Because nerfing everything a little bit sounds like a terrific idea.

Sarrs.4831:

ReaperJr.5967:

1. The power user requires soft cc to land majority of it’s damage

With the extreme abundance of evade, block and other defense frames, soft CC including immob and weakness is extremely helpful in securing direct damage.

ReaperJr.5967:

2. The power user is unable to drop the ele below 90% hp before applying said conditions

Depending on the class, this is entirely possible. Necromancers in general are highly dependent on using controlling conditions including Fear to secure their damage.

ReaperJr.5967:

If either were false, your argument would be moot. Like it is. So no, there is likely no advantage that diamond skin provides against power builds. And if any, it is minute and definitely not a HUGE advantage.

If you really think that being immune to controlling conditions above that health threshold, which you are likely to be in at multiple times in a fight even against a pure power user, has absolutely no effect, you are not paying attention.

Your first point is moot. They may be helpful, but they aren’t essential. Abundance of active defenses are irrelevant, especially as ele only has earth 5 providing brief invulnerability if he runs focus.

Second point, highly unlikely. Power necro/reaper is the only power build affected by diamond skin, they are also not meta simply for the fact that they do not perform well against other meta builds as well. Not a diamond skin exclusive issue.

Third point, I pay attention. All the time. But do entertain me and give a few examples where being immune to controlling conditions at above 90% hp against a pure power build gives me a significant advantage?

ReaperJr.5967:

Your first point is moot. They may be helpful, but they aren’t essential. Abundance of active defenses are irrelevant, especially as ele only has earth 5 providing brief invulnerability if he runs focus.

It’s hard to pinpoint where “helpful” becomes “essential”. There are a lot of factors in PvP, and controlling conditions can be what tips the fight from an out-sustained attacker into a dead bunker.

And yes, active defenses are very relevant, including Elementalists. They have good access to Vigor and Protection, they have several immune frame options including Earth 5 and Mist Form, and their auras provide massive defensive benefits in projectile reflection and damage reduction. There’s also the Air one that destroys projectiles; of course, it’s part of default ele and not purely a tempest thing, but the defenses stack up.

ReaperJr.5967:

Second point, highly unlikely. Power necro/reaper is the only power build affected by diamond skin, they are also not meta simply for the fact that they do not perform well against other meta builds as well. Not a diamond skin exclusive issue.

There’s only one meta power build: Scrapper Marauder.

ReaperJr.5967:

Third point, I pay attention. All the time. But do entertain me and give a few examples where being immune to controlling conditions at above 90% hp against a pure power build gives me a significant advantage?

…Any time when a pure power build runs a controlling condition to initiate a fight?

I dunno. A Berserker Warrior running Bloody Roar tries to initiate with Berserk?
Any Necromancer ever?
A Ranger tries to use either doggy to secure a Rapid Fire?

I know what you’re thinking: none of these builds are meta. But there’s only one, arguably two power builds which are meta, and they’re Scrapper Marauder and Dragonhunter Meditrapper, and they both have very few controlling conditions.

Sarrs.4831:

ReaperJr.5967:

Your first point is moot. They may be helpful, but they aren’t essential. Abundance of active defenses are irrelevant, especially as ele only has earth 5 providing brief invulnerability if he runs focus.

It’s hard to pinpoint where “helpful” becomes “essential”. There are a lot of factors in PvP, and controlling conditions can be what tips the fight from an out-sustained attacker into a dead bunker.

And yes, active defenses are very relevant, including Elementalists. They have good access to Vigor and Protection, they have several immune frame options including Earth 5 and Mist Form, and their auras provide massive defensive benefits in projectile reflection and damage reduction. There’s also the Air one that destroys projectiles; of course, it’s part of default ele and not purely a tempest thing, but the defenses stack up.

ReaperJr.5967:

Second point, highly unlikely. Power necro/reaper is the only power build affected by diamond skin, they are also not meta simply for the fact that they do not perform well against other meta builds as well. Not a diamond skin exclusive issue.

There’s only one meta power build: Scrapper Marauder.

ReaperJr.5967:

Third point, I pay attention. All the time. But do entertain me and give a few examples where being immune to controlling conditions at above 90% hp against a pure power build gives me a significant advantage?

…Any time when a pure power build runs a controlling condition to initiate a fight?

I dunno. A Berserker Warrior running Bloody Roar tries to initiate with Berserk?
Any Necromancer ever?
A Ranger tries to use either doggy to secure a Rapid Fire?

I know what you’re thinking: none of these builds are meta. But there’s only one, arguably two power builds which are meta, and they’re Scrapper Marauder and Dragonhunter Meditrapper, and they both have very few controlling conditions.

Slippery slope argument. You’re making too many assumptions. It could be, but likely not. Why? An ele is only immune at above 90% hp. A cripple, immobilise or chill etc at >90% is unlikely to spell the difference between life and death for a bunker spec.

And again, your argument is flawed. The only immune frames ele have are mist form and earth 5. No other. Definitely not ‘several’. Access to protection mainly comes from auras hence you cannot classify auras and protection as separate defenses. Projectile reflection only comes from earth aura. I would also like to point out that most eles don’t run mist form or aftershock.

And why would you use sub par builds to justify why something must be nerfed? It’s not logical.

Edit: You forgot power rev

Sunshine.5014:

Mistform is useless in high level PvP since you lose the capture point. It’s also on a 75s cooldown, not like Mesmer’s block. Meta Tempest has very poor mobility compare to Mesmer/Rev. And what’s the perma Vigor for if you spend the majority of your time channeling kitten cast skills?

The only thing I agree with you is reflection, but most of the DPS comes in melee range anyway.

Mesmer evasion loses the point, and that still sees quite a bit of use. Signet of stone is on an 80 second cooldown, and doesn’t prevent condition application the way mistform does; are you going to argue that rangers have no damage mitigation? Also, everybody has skills with cast times (well, almost everybody). They still manage to use dodge rolling effectively.

Additionally, the stun aura which you denigrate as ineffective for damage mitigation will make you take far less damage from channeled, continuous damage skills (such as rapid fire). It can also give you a chance to react when an enemy targets you with a burst consisting of multiple consecutive high-damage abilities. Most bursts do consist of multiple skills used together, which makes shock aura effective at mitigating burst damage. Frost aura gives an additional 10% damage reduction, which doesn’t hurt. It also slows down enemy movement speed, aiding in kiting.

Supreme.3164:

The major reason for flamed discussion is represented by the fact that people are trying to use DS as a ruse to nerf the core ele to the ground.
At the only mention of “removal of DS” you will be greeted by those who claim that the trait is OP, only in this case they will defend the trait claiming that the problem is ele and not the trait itself.

And you’re right in saying that most info are left out from conversation…that’s more convenient for many

The discussion from DS has quickly switched to core ele, in a distorted and diluted way:

1) They say ele has dmg reduction while in earth; that’s incorrect, the earth trait line was originally the toughness line for ele, after the June patch anet has replaced the toughness=dmg reduction formula with a trait FOR ALL CLASSES NOt JUST ELE, therefore the earth GM minor is the equivalent of 250 toughness aka 10%, as it stands the trait doesn’t even add up to the full 300 toughness as it was nerfed quickly after the patch launched

Adaptive armor gives 300 armor maximum, and that’s considered pretty strong. Besides, the elementalist most definitely has protective skills and traits in the earth line, which are more important anyways.

2) Ele has no other forms of dmg mitigation outside protection, heals and dodge….funny how somebody mention 75s CD skills as viable dmg mitigation.

Just like I mention stone signet for damage mitigation on rangers. Also, again, take a look at necromancer. Do they get permanent 40% damage reduction? Hell no. Do they get any invulnerabilities? Nope. One quarter of the healing that elementalists have? No. Auras to reflect projectiles, give even more damage reduction, stun attackers? It isn’t just that tempests are unkillable, it’s that they make their teammates nearly unkillable as well. A tempest can do 700k healing to teammates over the course of a game, plus more than 300k damage, as well as being extremely difficult to bring down.

It has already been proved that meta auramancer dies to power/hybrid builds right?

That depends heavily on the power/hybrid build in question. Power reapers can’t because the tempest just kites them, and their reliance on conditions (specifically, fear and chill) to set up a burst is their downfall. Revenants can because their ridiculous defensive mechanics allow them to go full glass and survive, even in this meta. Even then, it’s rare to kill one in a 1v1. Usually, the fight goes on for a few minutes, then somebody rotates and the +1 is what decides it.

It has also been proved that once DS is off the ele falls down quickly despite all the super heal talk so again where’s the problem there?

Yeah, right. Unless you can remove boons and power spike them (in other words, unless you’re a Shiro/Mallyx Herald) they’ll just hit a few healing skills and get back to full health. Permanent 40% damage reduction and ridiculous amounts of healing are why diamond skin became such a problem in the first place.

ReaperJr.5967:

The term ‘rework’ and all is fine.. but how do you propose to do it? All the suggestions I’ve seen with regards to diamond skin so far only nerfs it’s ability to counter conditions while still providing nothing against power builds.

Every diamond skin ‘rework’ advocate ever: “Oh it’s too binary so it’s bad design so let’s ‘rework’ it by nerfing how it fares against conditions. What about how it still doesn’t do anything against power builds, you say? Let’s just ignore that (since all I want is a nerf anyway).”

Pffft, sorry to burst your bubble but if you can’t play around diamond skin you probably should learn to play. I’m all for a rework but no good ideas have been put forward so far, hence it’s fine the way it is.

Edit: Stone heart is binary too and pretty much counters power builds so why not ask for a stone heart ‘rework’ too? I’m guessing it’s because your easy conditions builds (aka condi reaper and co) aren’t affected by it eh?

Wrong, on all counts. There are some proposed changes to Diamond Skin that are nerfs. For example: any that propose Resistance in any amount while above 90% health. These don’t make the trait any better designed, they just weaken it.

However, quite a few options have been proposed that are probably good ideas. Here are some of my favorites:

• Immunity to particular conditions based on attunement.
• 1.5 seconds of Resistance on attunement swap
• 2-4 seconds of Resistance on entering Earth attunement

All three of these don’t have a health threshold tied to them. This means that, while there are openings in the defense that a condition build can use, the defense against conditions is a factor in every fight for the entire fight.

And Stone heart doesn’t negate Power builds. Less effective, sure, but they still are doing something. Many condition builds are crit-reliant too, so it’s not just Power that’s affected by that trait.

Does it need a nerf? I guess the only real test is having good AI controlled characters (a supercomputer beat a world champion in Chess way back in the 90’s so it can be done) that simulate playable characters put into a variety of situations: 1v1’s vs. all classes, 2v2’s, and all the way up to 5v5’s. Considering there are nine classes there are plenty of permutations to test in. If the diamond skin tempest groups way overperform relative to other comps then it should be looked into.

Developers gather metrics based off player behavior, but the problem here is nearly all of that is from imperfectly skilled players doing suboptimal things (earlier today I forgot to pop a stability proc when rezzing someone in the heat of battle on a node for example. We still won convincingly but I went for a stealth rez with smokescale skill and staff 3 rather than strength of the pack or the giant skill) whereas true balance is achieved with objective metrics, best determined by at least top tier players who know better the strengths and weaknesses of traits and how they interact better than other players would.

“And Stone heart doesn’t negate Power builds”

No but it negates extra damage from stats rendering crit and ferocity worthless. The catch is you need to be in earth attunement so you’ll need to switch at tactical moments. I alternate between stone heart and diamond skin depending on the opposing class comp. Heavy condition classes mean diamond skin, daredevils, druids, and dragon hunters mean stone heart. Reapers and chrono definitely diamond skin, or maybe just one reaper would justify taking diamond skin over stone heart but I’ll be under 90% a lot anyway preferring to save heals for when I think the team most needs them not me personally.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Supreme.3164:

The major reason for flamed discussion is represented by the fact that people are trying to use DS as a ruse to nerf the core ele to the ground.
At the only mention of “removal of DS” you will be greeted by those who claim that the trait is OP, only in this case they will defend the trait claiming that the problem is ele and not the trait itself.

And you’re right in saying that most info are left out from conversation…that’s more convenient for many

The discussion from DS has quickly switched to core ele, in a distorted and diluted way:

1) They say ele has dmg reduction while in earth; that’s incorrect, the earth trait line was originally the toughness line for ele, after the June patch anet has replaced the toughness=dmg reduction formula with a trait FOR ALL CLASSES NOt JUST ELE, therefore the earth GM minor is the equivalent of 250 toughness aka 10%, as it stands the trait doesn’t even add up to the full 300 toughness as it was nerfed quickly after the patch launched

Adaptive armor gives 300 armor maximum, and that’s considered pretty strong. Besides, the elementalist most definitely has protective skills and traits in the earth line, which are more important anyways.

2) Ele has no other forms of dmg mitigation outside protection, heals and dodge….funny how somebody mention 75s CD skills as viable dmg mitigation.

Just like I mention stone signet for damage mitigation on rangers. Also, again, take a look at necromancer. Do they get permanent 40% damage reduction? Hell no. Do they get any invulnerabilities? Nope. One quarter of the healing that elementalists have? No. Auras to reflect projectiles, give even more damage reduction, stun attackers? It isn’t just that tempests are unkillable, it’s that they make their teammates nearly unkillable as well. A tempest can do 700k healing to teammates over the course of a game, plus more than 300k damage, as well as being extremely difficult to bring down.

It has already been proved that meta auramancer dies to power/hybrid builds right?

That depends heavily on the power/hybrid build in question. Power reapers can’t because the tempest just kites them, and their reliance on conditions (specifically, fear and chill) to set up a burst is their downfall. Revenants can because their ridiculous defensive mechanics allow them to go full glass and survive, even in this meta. Even then, it’s rare to kill one in a 1v1. Usually, the fight goes on for a few minutes, then somebody rotates and the +1 is what decides it.

It has also been proved that once DS is off the ele falls down quickly despite all the super heal talk so again where’s the problem there?

Yeah, right. Unless you can remove boons and power spike them (in other words, unless you’re a Shiro/Mallyx Herald) they’ll just hit a few healing skills and get back to full health. Permanent 40% damage reduction and ridiculous amounts of healing are why diamond skin became such a problem in the first place.

Eles don’t get perma 40% protection for free…they have to trait for it, they make a choice like you can have the choice to go into death trait line and pick these traits:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupter%27s_Fervor
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Protection

I don’t bother to pick others as the idea is clear and also

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armored_Shroud It looks like Anet has given toughness traits to every professions speccing for ex toughness line…FTW -_-

You have build options..not using them it’s your problem

And again shall we remove clones/stealth from mesmer? evade/stealth from thieves? heal burst/blocks from guards? CC chain/heal burst/stealth/block from engies? ranger? war?…should I start complaining about all the defensive option of each class because ele hasn’t got it?

And revs use viper? They actually invest in power? If you’d know how to play a class outside a single build copied from metabattle..you wouldn’t be here, seen reapers changing builds and beating easily the ds auramancer so the problem is no the class but the copy/paste goons that wait for @Nos to post a new meta build for them, you guys copied his signet build, his reaper build etc etc…problem is @Nos is only bothered to play team based build that synergize with his team so that’s not what wins all 1vs1

If you just want to run meta then expect to be countered by another meta build..that’s why they’re meta in the first place…

Finally…
Do eles get invulnerabilities? yeah on 33s CD max if traited and picking the focus and even there , the lowest HP in the game guarantee that much

But hey, wanna be like eles?..Be my guest but then my friend you’ll have to forget about:

1) Free trait choice = NOPE it’s 2 defensive lines min or GTFO
2) Choice of amulet = NOPE it’s vit/toughness/healing for all your gear options
3) Wanna play bunker or dps or condi = NOPE you play bunker only or GTFO

Enough already with this farse! Remove DS already

-It’s obvious that DS is being used as an excuse to nerf core ele to the ground
-Eles can adapt and don’t die to condi spammers
-This overbearing complaining from the necro community has reached unstainable levels

To all eles, to hell with everything, you can play without diamond skin..just remove this trait and let’s stop the congestion on the forum, every day now you get 2-3 threads started by a condi spammer …

Sunshine.5014:

IronPhoenix.2045:

kuritsutian.2987:

DS nerf is only a trending persecution, pushed by players that wants to win every 1v1 fight, on team fights, there’s roles and each has a function, eles are doing theirs as intended as mesmers are. On those team fights DS is rarely OP, general sustainability and damage mitigation plays a more important role. In my opinion there’s a real OP trait that ele has that it’s a must pick and counters different mechanics and a whole trait line for a certain class, not a very specific build.

Not dude you need to have a CHANCE against any class or any build in 1 v1 . Having hardcounters where you have no chance cause you cant deal any dmg is just stupid and especially if you get hardcountered by 1 trait not by a single class

So if I choose not to take DS, do I deserve to have a chance against condi Reaper?

You’re asking for a chance for a condi Reaper to win DS Tempest. I’m asking for a chance for a none DS fresh air Tempest to win a Condi Reaper. Deal?

Just like I can’t pick a Freshair Tempest build and complain it dies to a Reaper, you can’t pick a full condi Reaper and complain it dies to a DS Tempest.

You can do that, just pick scepter and bolt to the heart over fresh air ( having the dmg to actually eat fast through their RS is more important and cumulative dmg from fresh air doesn’t cut), avoid their wambo combo at mele range spin to win +chill to the bone ( you’ll see it coming a mile away) and quickly eat through their RS bar, save your burst ( like air overload) with RS down..unleash hell ( have condi clear ready to get rid of fear/chill spike – magnetic wave saving).

I don’t get it. It’s ok for you to passively condi bomb a thief, or a warrior or anyone for that matter but you can’t vs 1 class? Seems fine to me.

Needs removed imo. I got annoyed by it so much on my condi Thief who permanently did 0 damage that I rolled Ele myself through most of my games to enjoy the easy-mode.
Lotta times if I wanted to I could just stay in water attune with minimal movement and just ignore a player who’s trying to 1v1 me on a point I own and never get budged or damaged while I’m just AA splashing him with staff. Sad thing is they can actually die from it eventually.

Supreme.3164:

posthumecaver.6473:

Common guys that is a GM trait worthless under %90 HP.

Look what nos does to DS Eles with Wanderer gear (0 Power) with chillomancer….

http://www.twitch.tv/noscoc/v/32498263

watch 00:50:00

Are you comparing your “average” necro to @Nos ?..lol good joke my friend ^^, do you know all necro playerbase run builds made by @Nos?

Uhmm, what is your point?

The game should be balanced based on bad players or good players?

Nos show a good player can kill another another good Ele with DS (Nos is at Diamond rank I think and Ele must be also Diamond rank and I think Ele provided a good fight to Nos).

Or ideal and balanced game play should be a bad player that presses 2 buttons and other player explodes? Is that will be balanced game?

Oozo.7856:

You guys are really cherry-pickng Nos’ stream. Yes, he beats some DS while playing but he also says that there are DS that he has no chance of beating and is constantly complaining about how even a poorly played DS can still beat him.

If you are going to use him to bolster your argument then you also have to consider the things he says that are counter to your argument.

I could post videos of me killing some DS tempests and present it as proof that everything is fine, but yeah… taking a single instance of killing a DS tempest that isn’t playing correctly or has a bad build to say DS is fine would be stupid.

I see in his streams that he is killing DS Eles over and over, and I can say as Ele Main perma chill from the Necro is the most annoying thing for Ele but I don’t come here and complain about chill, I can beat them, they can beat me.

That I call balance, not that a gimmicky Necro coming here and say, I press my buttons but he does not die, well if he uses his brain little bit the Ele will die.

i vote yes nerf but only because its boring like all immunties are. not healthy for competetive pvp. add in increase to direct damage whilst active maybe. we still need some counters to condies though as was said earleir in post.

In my opinion the real problem is not diamond skin per se. The problem is that cele staff meta have 2 things in the same time : great healing and defense and good damage … so it is really hard to kill . For me they should make one of the 2 things :
– reduce meteorshower radius and air tempest skill
- reduce effective of some healing skill.
Not both , one of the 2
Diamond skin for me is ok , the problem is that with so much aoe damage is too difficult to make direct damage to them with some melee or close combat professions and it seems completely broken

Supreme.3164:

Enough already with this farse! Remove DS already

-It’s obvious that DS is being used as an excuse to nerf core ele to the ground

You keep saying this, but are there any core ele builds that use the discussed trait? If not, then is it actually affecting core ele at all?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Supreme.3164:

Enough already with this farse! Remove DS already

-It’s obvious that DS is being used as an excuse to nerf core ele to the ground

You keep saying this, but are there any core ele builds that use the discussed trait? If not, then is it actually affecting core ele at all?

Do I really need to go and cherry picking every comment from a necro saying: " DS not the problem, nerf healing, damage and protection on ele"?

But the real question is why people are so hell bent in reworking DS rather than remove it?

Let me guess… a trait that confers immunity , the perfect “triumph card” for a nerf crusade aimed at the profession, without DS…it’d be that much harder to cover any L2P issue

Afraid that you will run out excuses when losing to a ele? I do really wonder what will be next the reason why “PRO” necros lose vs ele

I should have recorded that fight vs a reaper yesterday…to lose vs a marauder scepter air tempest, what would be the excuse then? too much dmg from dragon’s tooth? or too much healing?

This thread was Obviously made for necro’s to cry. Ele is the only class that keeps reaper in check. Oh there is a counter to your condi bomb ?? boohoo lets go cry on the forums!

eureeka.5368:

This thread was Obviously made for necro’s to cry. Ele is the only class that keeps reaper in check. Oh there is a counter to your condi bomb ?? boohoo lets go cry on the forums!

Noone is arguing that that is a bad thing. Keeping people in check and from being OP if fine (Like ele bunkers are themselves atm, I just 1v2’ed a warrior and a DH on point and won) It is simply TOO good of a counter. It is an ability that has zero counterplay besides playing a different class or changing your build (sorry, but that is not counterplay), and requires zero skill/effort on the part of the ele to reap the benefits. [[

In general, the problem is a general problem of conditions and condition counters. To counter direct damage, you mostly mitigate it, using protection, weakness, frost aura and what not. To counter conditions, you cleanse them or use resistance or DS, all of them completely negating instead of mitigating. That is very bad design.

Since conditions can have 2 components (damage and debuff), the only proper way to mitigate conditions would be to have resistance or DS offer a reduced condition duration. DS could also maybe just mitigate the damaging part (for example, -50% damage from conditions when above 70% health).

Blooperz.6145:

eureeka.5368:

This thread was Obviously made for necro’s to cry. Ele is the only class that keeps reaper in check. Oh there is a counter to your condi bomb ?? boohoo lets go cry on the forums!

Noone is arguing that that is a bad thing. Keeping people in check and from being OP if fine (Like ele bunkers are themselves atm, I just 1v2’ed a warrior and a DH on point and won) It is simply TOO good of a counter. It is an ability that has zero counterplay besides playing a different class or changing your build (sorry, but that is not counterplay), and requires zero skill/effort on the part of the ele to reap the benefits. [[

Fair enough then why don’t keep the discussion limited to DS instead than suggest to nerf core ele in the process?

Cynz.9437:

It needs rework, for example give resistance under certain condition.

Like “while life is above 90%”?

Whats bothering is that core specs r no more represented. I miss fighting old specs

eureeka.5368:

This thread was Obviously made for necro’s to cry. Ele is the only class that keeps reaper in check. Oh there is a counter to your condi bomb ?? boohoo lets go cry on the forums!

Reaper is already hardcountered by Scrapper and Tempests, and softcountered by Warriors and revenants.

Meanwhile Tempests are hardcountered by nothing and softcountered by nothing.

eureeka.5368:

This thread was Obviously made for necro’s to cry. Ele is the only class that keeps reaper in check. Oh there is a counter to your condi bomb ?? boohoo lets go cry on the forums!

Well DS ele is a counter only when he has more than 89% Hp. Unless … necro can enjoy killing the ele quite Easily …

Why would u kill a bunker in 1v1 anyway? Would u fight a chronobunker in 1v1?

Crinn.7864:

eureeka.5368:

This thread was Obviously made for necro’s to cry. Ele is the only class that keeps reaper in check. Oh there is a counter to your condi bomb ?? boohoo lets go cry on the forums!

Reaper is already hardcountered by Scrapper and Tempests, and softcountered by Warriors and revenants.

Meanwhile Tempests are hardcountered by nothing and softcountered by nothing.

Ele is countered by condi mixed damage and by CC

Stop asking for hotfix nerfs! Well, okay, ask for them but it will do no good.

Alright, alright, so let me explain. Guild Wars 2 has a downward spiral of balance, if you simply move the ball along, it will hit another wall.

For example, Diamond Skin, thanks to the perma protection, regeneration and the aid of high healing from Elemental Bastion Elementalists are practically immune to conditions. Obvious right? If that gets nerfed, one of the most problematic bunkers will be fixed allowing for more class diversity.
WRONG.
What is the most powerful class right now? Revenants. They practically have little to no weaknesses. So if you nerf Diamond Skin, REAPERS will absolutely dominate the game. It doesn’t matter if Reapers are not the most powerful class, they have all the tools they need to crush every other class.

This is exactly what I mean by a downward balance. Guild Wars 2 PvP balance is more like a chain than a battleground to the dominate role. Okay, nerfed Reapers. Now Tempests and Reapers are in check, BUT UH-OH, now Viper Revenants can now take the top of the chain. Nerf them! Now Druids are a bunker with no predators. Nerf them! Now chronobunkers, nerfed. Now Scrappers can take anything uncontested! Nerf. So on, and so on.

I stated before that to fix this issue Guild Wars 2 PvP combat needs a rock, paper, scissor system. Bunker beats spike, spike beats pressure, pressure beats bunker.

It’s important to have that sort of system because the only time something becomes overpowered or too weak is when something breaks the system. So if warrior bunker is the weakest bunker, it doesn’t matter, it will still die to pressure and can still beat spike. But hey, what do we know right ArenaNet? Just keep pretending it’ll keep working.

Nova Stiker.8396:

WRONG.
What is the most powerful class right now? Revenants. They practically have little to no weaknesses. So if you nerf Diamond Skin, REAPERS will absolutely dominate the game. It doesn’t matter if Reapers are not the most powerful class, they have all the tools they need to crush every other class.

I’m sure people will disagree but Reapers will never be a problem. Simply because if you focus them they die. Even if you focus a revenant or a scrapper they don’t die (or at least not without wasting you a lot of time). Yes, reapers are painful, but I don’t see how they can become apex predator in the gw2 meta.

Silverkey.2078:

Nova Stiker.8396:

WRONG.
What is the most powerful class right now? Revenants. They practically have little to no weaknesses. So if you nerf Diamond Skin, REAPERS will absolutely dominate the game. It doesn’t matter if Reapers are not the most powerful class, they have all the tools they need to crush every other class.

I’m sure people will disagree but Reapers will never be a problem. Simply because if you focus them they die. Even if you focus a revenant or a scrapper they don’t die (or at least not without wasting you a lot of time). Yes, reapers are painful, but I don’t see how they can become apex predator in the gw2 meta.

Tempest hard counters Reapers, while you can focus a Reaper down unlike the the Revenant and Scrapper, Reapers can condi-burst. There is no build in the game that can handle their beastly condi-burst other than Tempest.

I’ve been in matches when we had 3-4 reapers and the other team only had 1 bunker druid or no bunker at all. It is always an absolute slaughter, as long as they have minor support, Reapers can run in and just wreck everyone in seconds. Yet, just add 1 Tempest and the reverse happens.

Without a doubt, Revenants are the most powerful class right now but Reapers are a different type of power house. If you had a team of Reapers vs. a team of Revenants, the Reapers will always win.

Dawdler.8521:

DS IMO is an OP mechanic. The problem is that it doesnt really open any damage window once you get the ele down in HP – they just heal up instantly and are invoulnerable to condis again. All that it really need is something akin to revealed – a cd after DS is broken until it goes up again (even if the ele is at 100% HP).

IronPhoenix.2045:

In my opinion it should be a dmg reduction and not a immunity for example over 75 % hp reduce condi dmg to 50 %. So i got at least a chance to win against a ele in a 1 v1 and 2 condis will win against a ele.

I agree with the majority of posts, tempests are currently abusing DS, but only because they are extremely weak without it. So, as the above posts suggest, I think DS could be reworked to remain very strong against condis without being as gamebreaking as it currently is. Both of the above suggestions are great ideas, and I appreciate the constructive way that the two posts try to address the issue.

I would add that another option might involve condi duration, so that very strong condi classes would still be able to break DS by timing their bursts correctly, and that the ele would have to manage the most damaging conditions by using their cleanses at the right time, instead of just constantly healing. Something like "50% incoming condition duration while above 85% health might be an option, and would still allow DS to have a strong impact on non-damaging (control) conditions without negating them entirely.

My other issue with ele right now is that focus, as a defensive weapon, is far too powerful atm. It has obsidian flesh, easily the best invulnerability skill in the game (4-second instant cast invuln on a weapon skill that allows the tempest to cast any and all skills while active), tons of defense/reflects against projectiles (swirling winds, earth overload, magnetic wave), with the latter skill also curing 3 condis and being instant cast, with tons of CC on fairly low cooldowns to boot.

The ability to use overloads and shouts means that the tempest is not as reliant on weapon skills to deal the bulk of its damage, so that it is free to use the most defensive weapons available without hurting its dps too much —-> d/f and (occasionally) staff

That’s why scepter (and to a lesser extent, warhorn and offhand dagger) are so ineffective as weapon choices in the current meta.

So, in addition to reworking DS, I’d like to see some nerfs to focus and some buffs to scepter, so that an offensively-geared tempest or ele build would become viable again in PvP. I think a lot of ele players would like to see more build diversity, which might take some of the sting out of a rework to DS.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Tempest hard counters Reapers, while you can focus a Reaper down unlike the the Revenant and Scrapper, Reapers can condi-burst. There is no build in the game that can handle their beastly condi-burst other than Tempest.

Except Reapers are already hardcountered by Scrappers, and softcountered by warriors. Reapers are terrible at kiting and have no blocks or extra evades so they are vulnerable to any class that has access to large amounts of power damage, and/or CC.

Lets say that hypothetically they change tempest to where it’s countered by reaper. what would happen would be this:
1. Tempests gets pushed out of meta by a upsurge of reapers
2. DH becomes stronger. (no more tempest projectile hate)
3. Reaper becomes meta.
4. Scrappers and Warriors become much more desirable due to the reaper meta.
5. Reaper gets pushed out of meta by the upsurge of scrappers and warriors.
6. Scrappers and DH are now meta.
7. With reaper pushed out of meta, Tempest returns to meta.
8. DH gets pushed out of meta by Tempest’s projectile hate.
9. With tempest becoming meta again, reapers are now desirable.
10. Tempests gets pushed out of meta by a upsurge of reapers.
11. repeat ad infinium

hotcarl.8621:

tempests are currently abusing DS, but only because they are extremely weak without it.

Classes should either have only condi defense or only power defense. No class should ever have both condi and power defense. Tempests currently have both.

As a necro player I would totally be fine with Diamond skin if tempests where weak against power classes, but they aren’t.

hotcarl.8621:

Dawdler.8521:

DS IMO is an OP mechanic. The problem is that it doesnt really open any damage window once you get the ele down in HP – they just heal up instantly and are invoulnerable to condis again. All that it really need is something akin to revealed – a cd after DS is broken until it goes up again (even if the ele is at 100% HP).

IronPhoenix.2045:

In my opinion it should be a dmg reduction and not a immunity for example over 75 % hp reduce condi dmg to 50 %. So i got at least a chance to win against a ele in a 1 v1 and 2 condis will win against a ele.

I agree with the majority of posts, tempests are currently abusing DS, but only because they are extremely weak without it. So, as the above posts suggest, I think DS could be reworked to remain very strong against condis without being as gamebreaking as it currently is. Both of the above suggestions are great ideas, and I appreciate the constructive way that the two posts try to address the issue.

I would add that another option might involve condi duration, so that very strong condi classes would still be able to break DS by timing their bursts correctly, and that the ele would have to manage the most damaging conditions by using their cleanses at the right time, instead of just constantly healing. Something like "50% incoming condition duration while above 85% health might be an option, and would still allow DS to have a strong impact on non-damaging (control) conditions without negating them entirely.

My other issue with ele right now is that focus, as a defensive weapon, is far too powerful atm. It has obsidian flesh, easily the best invulnerability skill in the game (4-second instant cast invuln on a weapon skill that allows the tempest to cast any and all skills while active), tons of defense/reflects against projectiles (swirling winds, earth overload, magnetic wave), with the latter skill also curing 3 condis and being instant cast, with tons of CC on fairly low cooldowns to boot.

The ability to use overloads and shouts means that the tempest is not as reliant on weapon skills to deal the bulk of its damage, so that it is free to use the most defensive weapons available without hurting its dps too much —-> d/f and (occasionally) staff

That’s why scepter (and to a lesser extent, warhorn and offhand dagger) are so ineffective as weapon choices in the current meta.

So, in addition to reworking DS, I’d like to see some nerfs to focus and some buffs to scepter, so that an offensively-geared tempest or ele build would become viable again in PvP. I think a lot of ele players would like to see more build diversity, which might take some of the sting out of a rework to DS.

Overloads can be interrupted if you know what you’re doing making your all post a moot point and the best invulnerability in the game is double elixirs and shield gear where you don’t lose the point and and you mention only the strong points of focus , what about the rest? freezing gust, fire aura? obsidian flesh comes as compensation for the rest of the crap focus has so…suck it up

Supreme.3164:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Supreme.3164:

Enough already with this farse! Remove DS already

-It’s obvious that DS is being used as an excuse to nerf core ele to the ground

You keep saying this, but are there any core ele builds that use the discussed trait? If not, then is it actually affecting core ele at all?

Do I really need to go and cherry picking every comment from a necro saying: " DS not the problem, nerf healing, damage and protection on ele"?

But the real question is why people are so hell bent in reworking DS rather than remove it?

Yes. Yes you do, because I’ll bet that those people asking for nerfs to ele healing, damage and Protection have very little overlap with those asking for a Diamond Skin rework.

As for why are people hellbent on reworking Diamond Skin? Because, at it’s core concept, it’s a great idea. Due to the tiny health pool, Eles are terribly susceptible to conditions they can’t remove, so a trait that helps protect them is a great idea. The problem is that it was implemented in the most binary way possible. Most of the folks calling for a rework (not all, but most) want it to remain a strong condition defense trait, but it needs to be more fair to both opposing condition damage users and the Eles themselves.

And you are literally the only person talking about nerfing core Ele right now (aside from Diamond Skin specifically).

Here’s something that might surprise you. As a Necromancer main since before Factions, I want to see the health threshold on Diamond Skin go away entirely on a rework. Mull that over while you claim the all the big scary necros are out to get you.

Try running more diverse teams , instead of crying you cant condi bomb spam. Give your necro a break and play rev like everyone else who wants an op class. This game will not be fixed anytime soon.

Last game I played on warrior, their eles were bursted down so fast it was insane. Nothing quite like a necro stripping protection and gunflaming an ele in the face for 9k over and over. Sorry, maybe they just need to make thieves and warrior a little more viable again. Those two classes are very power based eccentric classes. DS doesn’t need a nerf, just thief and warrior needs some buffs.

I agree that trait has to be tone down like “automate response”.
1 trait can counter a whole build condi, that’s not fair.

I hope really a change!

Why? It’s been the same for years. Now that nearly everyone wants to play some kind of cheap condi bomb you can’t vs the ele. You want to play Passive vs passive then this is what you get lol.

Forestgreen.7981:

Last game I played on warrior, their eles were bursted down so fast it was insane. Nothing quite like a necro stripping protection and gunflaming an ele in the face for 9k over and over. Sorry, maybe they just need to make thieves and warrior a little more viable again. Those two classes are very power based eccentric classes. DS doesn’t need a nerf, just thief and warrior needs some buffs.

I guess u found the right solution. I really think #NoSarcasm

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Why? It’s been the same for years. Now that nearly everyone wants to play some kind of cheap condi bomb you can’t vs the ele. You want to play Passive vs passive then this is what you get lol.

Except I’m a celestial Necromancer, and I can’t use any meaningful CC on an Elementalist with this trait because they can simply heal most of the damage I do to them… This is not just about condition damage, it means I can’t chill, fear, or immobilize them etc.

DS gives immune to condies … and then soft CCs (chill, cripple, immob)
Ok it gives ONE immune to hard CC (fear)

The other ones (daze, stun, knock back-down, pull) can still be applied and remember … ele doesn’t run stability anymore. It’s kinda Easy to abuse your CCs on an ele (especially since every class gain soooo much CCs with HoT.)

Atharian.7092:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Why? It’s been the same for years. Now that nearly everyone wants to play some kind of cheap condi bomb you can’t vs the ele. You want to play Passive vs passive then this is what you get lol.

Except I’m a celestial Necromancer, and I can’t use any meaningful CC on an Elementalist with this trait because they can simply heal most of the damage I do to them… This is not just about condition damage, it means I can’t chill, fear, or immobilize them etc.

Except most diamond skin qq-ers are necromancer players like you who refuse to accept that you have counters and are not supposed to be able to win every 1v1.

ReaperJr.5967:

Atharian.7092:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Why? It’s been the same for years. Now that nearly everyone wants to play some kind of cheap condi bomb you can’t vs the ele. You want to play Passive vs passive then this is what you get lol.

Except I’m a celestial Necromancer, and I can’t use any meaningful CC on an Elementalist with this trait because they can simply heal most of the damage I do to them… This is not just about condition damage, it means I can’t chill, fear, or immobilize them etc.

Except most diamond skin qq-ers are necromancer players like you who refuse to accept that you have counters and are not supposed to be able to win every 1v1.

Ds only counters 100% condi specs with zero direct dmg, it does not counter necromancers, the trait is useless against power necros

Supreme.3164:

ReaperJr.5967:

Atharian.7092:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Why? It’s been the same for years. Now that nearly everyone wants to play some kind of cheap condi bomb you can’t vs the ele. You want to play Passive vs passive then this is what you get lol.

Except I’m a celestial Necromancer, and I can’t use any meaningful CC on an Elementalist with this trait because they can simply heal most of the damage I do to them… This is not just about condition damage, it means I can’t chill, fear, or immobilize them etc.

Except most diamond skin qq-ers are necromancer players like you who refuse to accept that you have counters and are not supposed to be able to win every 1v1.

Ds only counters 100% condi specs with zero direct dmg, it does not counter necromancers, the trait is useless against power necros

It’s very useful even against power necros. To do anything to ele even power necro needs to corrupt their boons especially protection. Except corruption becomes simple boon rip cause diamond skin. And a lot of condies (especially chill & weakness) are needed to see our damage go through, and not just watch ele dodge the damage or run outta range. Axe aa can’t do enough damage. Life blast auto can and gets reflected. Same for Lich. dagger must be in range for aa, and ele can’t be slowed downed or immobilized. Same applies to rs attacks.

And ele is still happily healing/spamming protection all the time…

ReaperJr.5967:

Atharian.7092:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Why? It’s been the same for years. Now that nearly everyone wants to play some kind of cheap condi bomb you can’t vs the ele. You want to play Passive vs passive then this is what you get lol.

Except I’m a celestial Necromancer, and I can’t use any meaningful CC on an Elementalist with this trait because they can simply heal most of the damage I do to them… This is not just about condition damage, it means I can’t chill, fear, or immobilize them etc.

Except most diamond skin qq-ers are necromancer players like you who refuse to accept that you have counters and are not supposed to be able to win every 1v1.

Scrappers, daredevils, hammer warriors, non-melee rangers, and any strong power burst saved for after the Necro leaves Shroud are all tough fights for Necros and Reapers alike. They all counter, but they do so by exploiting the necro’s weaknesses, rather than entirely negating their strengths.

Nobody wants Necros to have no counter, they want the counters to be fair.

Agemnon.4608:

Does it need a nerf? I guess the only real test is having good AI controlled characters (a supercomputer beat a world champion in Chess way back in the 90’s so it can be done) that simulate playable characters put into a variety of situations: 1v1’s vs. all classes, 2v2’s, and all the way up to 5v5’s. Considering there are nine classes there are plenty of permutations to test in. If the diamond skin tempest groups way overperform relative to other comps then it should be looked into.

There are mathematical ways to model how a class performs in a combat situation. No need to develop AI. Sadly we the players don’t have the data needed to do this ourselves.

Developers gather metrics based off player behavior, but the problem here is nearly all of that is from imperfectly skilled players doing suboptimal things (earlier today.

It’s public school level stats to trim data and remove unwanted data. The devs know the difference between a bad and good player. Moreover they know better than anyone what optimal play looks like.