Guild Wars 2

Sorry in advance for my poor english,

Condition damage got buffed 2-3 months ago, maybe because it was not “strong enough” for some people and the devs, and its not supposed to be strong, really, because like a lot of people in this forums already said, and realized, condition damage is made for being a SECONDARY source of damage, because for getting a strong condition damage you just need one stat: CONDITION DAMAGE, way far from power builds, that needs 3 stats for being strong, power + precision + critical damage.
Plus , the number of primary atributes on sets is 3, that, if you pay close attention is the number of stats that you need to have for getting a good power build damage (berzerker) , making condition damage even stronger, because you can have 2 defensive stats plus condition damage, having a rly good damage from conditions and good tankiness, its like having berzerker + soldier on the same set.

So, my points is, scale down A LITTLE , condition damage, not weak like it was before, extincting necros and condition builds from pvp.

I also would like to see burn on crit traits removed or given longer ICDs.

Meh, this patch gain most classes some abilities agains condis. This first they need to rework CC in game.

are bleeds ticking for less a few months back?
I know fear ticks for less now.

so how did condition damage get a buff? because of dumbfire?

Conditions should have always been just for support in this game:
- control (immobilize, chill)
- anti-healing (poison)
-anti direct damage (weakness)
and so on

in the first place condition like burning and bleeding should never exist at all or at least the condition damage stat should have been removed from equipments age ago so that the only condition damage stat comes from traits.
Sadly it will never be like this

You clearly have no idea about which you are talking. First off, conditions are a Primary damage type, I don’t know where you got the idea that they weren’t. The necromancer class is based around them being a primary damage type. Second, Condition damage builds rely on multiple stats just as much as berserker builds. Necromancers want rabid(precision+condition dmg) so they can proc more conditions but that leaves them with only toughness for defense. Conditions also need 2 stats(condition damage+condition duration) to do damage and don’t scale anywhere near as well as a berserker build in terms of outright damage, but aren’t impacted by armor. Then we have the fact that not only is there limited number of conditions that stack in intensity(bleeds, confusion, torment and vulnerability) , but they are also removable. Berserker damage is not removable at all and if you say “dodge” well most condition abilities can be dodged as well.

The problem you’re having is you think a berserker build with no condition removal should survive against an attrition condition build that is made to take out berserkers. If you want to take out condition builds you need to have more health and condition removal. You don’t need a full berserker set to have a strong power build, you don’t do any damage if you’re dead.

Inutil.7634:

Sorry in advance for my poor english,

So, my points is, scale down A LITTLE , condition damage, not weak like it was before, extincting necros and condition builds from pvp.

How about, make conditions into mainly debuffs (so they’d be a secondary source of dmg AT BEST), turn condition dmg from amulets all into malice (%condition duration) and call it a day.
It’d make the game a dozen times better to play and be easy as kitten to fix.

garethh.3518:

Inutil.7634:

Sorry in advance for my poor english,

So, my points is, scale down A LITTLE , condition damage, not weak like it was before, extincting necros and condition builds from pvp.

How about, make conditions into mainly debuffs (so they’d be a secondary source of dmg AT BEST), turn condition dmg from amulets all into malice (%condition duration) and call it a day.
It’d make the game a dozen times better to play and be easy as kitten to fix.

How would it make the game play better for Necro’s?

Brando.1374:

garethh.3518:

Inutil.7634:

Sorry in advance for my poor english,

So, my points is, scale down A LITTLE , condition damage, not weak like it was before, extincting necros and condition builds from pvp.

How about, make conditions into mainly debuffs (so they’d be a secondary source of dmg AT BEST), turn condition dmg from amulets all into malice (%condition duration) and call it a day.
It’d make the game a dozen times better to play and be easy as kitten to fix.

How would it make the game play better for Necro’s?

If the game had 1 enjoyable class, one class that was deep and extremely enjoyable to play… while others were tossed on the backburner to a future date…
GW2 would be much better.

A hogwash of cheese and half finished patches won’t get this game anywhere.

Talk about ideals asside, it wouldn’t help necro’s out of the gate, they would be an extremely debuff related class which, in conquest, is very niche.

BUT the change gives necro’s tons of potential, after reworking some skills to do bonus things, like, if a certain condition or number of conditions are on the target, it would be viable, if not in a better spot.

Condition Necromancer = Funzies now

I’m all tanky and I just throw condis on my enemies and run in a circle as they slowly die

MUR-HAR-HAR

Brando.1374:

are bleeds ticking for less a few months back?
I know fear ticks for less now.

so how did condition damage get a buff? because of dumbfire?

Bleed ticks have not been changed. I think the OP means that condition specs got more popular a few months ago and necros received some buffs (yes, dhuumfire was one of them.)

NevirSayDie.6235:

Brando.1374:

are bleeds ticking for less a few months back?
I know fear ticks for less now.

so how did condition damage get a buff? because of dumbfire?

Bleed ticks have not been changed. I think the OP means that condition specs got more popular a few months ago and necros received some buffs (yes, dhuumfire was one of them.)

so remove dhummfire and all the complaining will go away?
will necro’s no longer be viewed as OP? if thats the case im all for it.

If they remove dhuumfire we are where we started, well no necros will be even worth, because they still have nerved fear/terror. The buff was needed for necros, because every other class did more Conditiondamage before the patch and I think warrior is still stronger when you want to apply conditions. They only lack of epedemic to spread them.

I think the main problem is, that many people don’t know what a condition remove is.

Brando.1374:

so remove dhummfire and all the complaining will go away?
will necro’s no longer be viewed as OP? if thats the case im all for it.

Necros aren’t really that great any more. Definitely still pretty good, but people have generally figured out how to not get owned by marks+fear. The devs could nerf them but I don’t really see a reason to.

I was surprised last month when necros didn’t get nerfed, but now I see why…the devs are literally a full month ahead of the players in meta and somehow we still give them grief.

this game needs DR on CCs if anything

thats why some random douchbags are running around with 4k armor and 5k DPS how is that a secondary stat

a t s e.9614:

thats why some random douchbags are running around with 4k armor and 5k DPS how is that a secondary stat

Please post an SS of someone with that kind of armor (aside from Plague form) and still being able to dish out that much DPS.

whyme.3281:

If they remove dhuumfire we are where we started, well no necros will be even worth, because they still have nerved fear/terror. The buff was needed for necros, because every other class did more Conditiondamage before the patch and I think warrior is still stronger when you want to apply conditions. They only lack of epedemic to spread them.

I think the main problem is, that many people don’t know what a condition remove is.

They buffed their deathshroud, spectral skills and gave torment, Necros will never be worse then their previous state. They never needed burning, their condi was always good.

I wish I took a screen shot but I didn’t. SS/LB full condi warr is unkillable. It’s probably the most overpowered spec in the game.

Distaste.4801:

The problem you’re having is you think a berserker build with no condition removal should survive against an attrition condition build that is made to take out berserkers. If you want to take out condition builds you need to have more health and condition removal. You don’t need a full berserker set to have a strong power build, you don’t do any damage if you’re dead.

Except most people would say that bunker classes shouldn’t last against a condition build…. And that zerker burst builds should be the counter…. The thing is there are too few things that counter conditions effectively. And the amount of Condi spam that exists is still ridiculous…. Condition builds are easily the least risk and some of the highest reward.

Greek.4396:

whyme.3281:

If they remove dhuumfire we are where we started, well no necros will be even worth, because they still have nerved fear/terror. The buff was needed for necros, because every other class did more Conditiondamage before the patch and I think warrior is still stronger when you want to apply conditions. They only lack of epedemic to spread them.

I think the main problem is, that many people don’t know what a condition remove is.

They buffed their deathshroud, spectral skills and gave torment, Necros will never be worse then their previous state. They never needed burning, their condi was always good.

Torment is only something like an additional bleed, not really game changing.

They are still worse then condi warriors. And they needed burning, because they are used to be the condition class in the game, so they need the condition with the highest damage. Without dhoomfire the damage output was to low.

Change max stacks to 15 in pvp only.

Boom. Issue fixed.

Tracker.6483:

Change max stacks to 15 in pvp only.

Boom. Issue fixed.

No, that would make it even worth, because then no one will play condition builds any more. 15 stacks isn’t even enough for one build.

Condi would continue to be good, just not as bursty going from 20 to only 15 stacks. Which is how it should be.

Simple fix, and testing can see the correct number (15 is my guess, but maybe 17 is better, or maybe 13).

conditions are not bursty, the do a constant damage over time. When a DPS class hits you with 5k damage and more that is a burst.

Condition damage isn’t to high and the cap needs to be removed completely.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Brando.1374:

so remove dhummfire and all the complaining will go away?
will necro’s no longer be viewed as OP? if thats the case im all for it.

Necros aren’t really that great any more. Definitely still pretty good, but people have generally figured out how to not get owned by marks+fear. The devs could nerf them but I don’t really see a reason to.

I was surprised last month when necros didn’t get nerfed, but now I see why…the devs are literally a full month ahead of the players in meta and somehow we still give them grief.

Half of the FOTM Necro’s are now FOTM Warriors I guess you could give the devs credit for that.

Kwll.1468:

Half of the FOTM Necro’s are now FOTM Warriors I guess you could give the devs credit for that.

Warriors are going to stay popular because they’re so mindnumbingly easy to play and no matter how bad someone is, he will at least do okay on a warrior.

But there are a plenty of tools already in place to deal with them, just like there were plenty of tools already in place to deal with necros back when people were saying necros were unbeatable one month ago. In one month, it won’t be that big a deal—although as I said, warriors will remain popular just because they’re warriors.

I don’t mean that nothing should change, just that the players will catch up pretty soon.

Direct dmg is completely reliant on bursts and killing your opponent before they kill you. DoT dmg is reliant on prolonging the fight so your DoTs have enough time to kill them.
On most conditions builds, to be effective you need Prec and Cond dmg and some sort of defensive stat. If you opt out Prec for a second defensive stat, you will be missing out on a lot of free conditions applications. You can also completely stop the condition damage with cleanses and high healing(granted you watch out for poison) and dodge the application of the condition. The very nature of DoT’s is to counter the burst builds.
Also, you can’t QQ about dying to builds when you are running GLASS CANNON. -.-

Guild Wars 2 sPvP will never be fun for the masses like this and it will never become a popular e-sport. Far too much clutter with condition spam + pets and clones all over the place.

Conditions are out of hand in this game, there are 12 of them for a start, absolutely far too many. There’s so much condition application from weapons, utilities, traits and proc effects. They have had to make an insane amount of passive and secondary effects to remove the plethora of condition spam they have built into the game, but it’s still not enough.

Conditions do huge damage and most are applied from the safety of range and with very favourable build options available through the Rabid Amulet offering Condition damage, Toughness and Precision, far better than any Amulet offers a Power build.

The game is also fundamentally flawed with its conditions, it simply isn’t that fun to play, it’s frustrating a lot of the time and it’s almost like the devs have designed it to be frustrating and not fun with the conditions they have added.

Take Confusion and Torment, two conditions that can do a huge amount of damage.
Confusion damages you when you use a skill, Torment damages you anyway and damages you twice as hard when you move.

So if you move and use skills you take a huge amount of damage.

In other words you are punished for playing the game.

Kolly.9872:

Conditions should have always been just for support in this game:
- control (immobilize, chill)
- anti-healing (poison)
-anti direct damage (weakness)
and so on

in the first place condition like burning and bleeding should never exist at all or at least the condition damage stat should have been removed from equipments age ago so that the only condition damage stat comes from traits.
Sadly it will never be like this

Exactly, they added far too much. 12 Conditions!

We should just have these conditions and their opposite boons:

Poison <~> Regeneration
Immobilize <~> Swiftness
Weakness <~> Might
Vulnerability <~> Protection
Chill <~> Vigor

Chill should also prevent dodge rolling like it did in beta.
Stability still exists as a boon but its role is simply to counter control effects like stuns and knockbacks.
Fear is bad, losing control of your character is a bad mechanic for PvP.

Blind and Aegis are not needed, missing should be down to positioning error or being outmaneuvered by a foe, not because your enemy can spam blinds.

Conditions for pure damage like Bleeding and Burning can only work if they function like large direct damage hits, high damage high cooldown, condition removal would then be the same with high cooldowns.
Condition damage then becomes something you burst or overpower with to end a fight. You can take condition removal but it has a long cooldown and you use it only to counter this possibility, in the same way you would bring a stun break in an attempt to counter a direct damage spike.

Instead we have constant spammy conditions from weapons (especially auto-attack), traits, utilities, AoE and pets, and huge amounts of condition removal.

Retaliation, Confusion and Torment are bad boons and conditions, punishing people for playing the game. They are lazy game mechanics, frustrating and not fun.

Kolly.9872:

Conditions should have always been just for support in this game:
- control (immobilize, chill)
- anti-healing (poison)
-anti direct damage (weakness)
and so on

in the first place condition like burning and bleeding should never exist at all or at least the condition damage stat should have been removed from equipments age ago so that the only condition damage stat comes from traits.
Sadly it will never be like this

I feel the exact same way. I think conditions should be cool debilitating affects that are applied strategically and removed strategically. There should not be AOE condition spam and then the counter for that is AOE condition removal spam. It just doesn’t feel rewarding. Not to mention, for casting, how much easier would it be.

Think of how much easier the game would have been to balance if all main sources of damage would be direct damage and then only have to worry about conditions being a form of CC or effect that reduces chances for things to occur.

ANet logic:
“Oh conditions are overpowered right now.. I know, nerf the only good team condi clear (PoV) and then buff a mantra that no one will ever run anyway! kittening genius.”

Darek.1836:

ANet logic:
“Oh conditions are overpowered right now.. I know, nerf the only good team condi clear (PoV) and then buff a mantra that no one will ever run anyway! kittening genius.”

Engineer’s EG #3, Fumigate is a very good aoe condi clear,

As if people will stand in a circle in a game like this

Monadproxy.3489:

Direct dmg is completely reliant on bursts and killing your opponent before they kill you. DoT dmg is reliant on prolonging the fight so your DoTs have enough time to kill them.
On most conditions builds, to be effective you need Prec and Cond dmg and some sort of defensive stat. If you opt out Prec for a second defensive stat, you will be missing out on a lot of free conditions applications. You can also completely stop the condition damage with cleanses and high healing(granted you watch out for poison) and dodge the application of the condition. The very nature of DoT’s is to counter the burst builds.
Also, you can’t QQ about dying to builds when you are running GLASS CANNON. -.-

The difference is those builds also 100% beat out Tank builds. (yes maybe not warrior stuns) but every other build yes. i run a full heal/condi removal Guard (you know the supposed best class in the game for condi removal). And 1v1ing a necro is near impossible if they know what they are doing.

Lets say i’m running my build
I remove:
2 conditions every 10 secs from Sigil + traits
1 condition per shout = 3
3 conditions via virtue of resolve

So on average i’m removing 6 conditions around a 25 sec CD (even longer for some)

Now the difference is 1 necros can put that many conditions on you at once. If you remove them all even though they don’t have Spite, Between Autos, Wep skills, and their other utility not to mention plague form, they have way too many ways reapply condis in a very short CD. They also have the ability to stop physical dmg though toughness/DS so being able to out survive them i also impossible because the class is naturally tanky not to mention can build tank.

TL:DR To say that necro builds counter Glass is wrong because Necro builds counter EVERYTHING. While also not having a viable counter of its own.

@Ezrael: I cant see why you have a problem with conditions. I think you have no idea, what a Dot is, or conditions in general.

One example:
We have a Warrior hitting you with 2k every second, what can you do to prevent this? Block, dodge, heal, run away, invunerability….
Now we have a Condition-build, that puts bleed on you. What can you do to prevent this? Block (im not sure here), dodge, heal, run away,invunerability ….. and aditionaly you can remove these conditions with a lot of skills.

At the end, its both damage. And now comes the big secret, you dont have to wonder, why died to 10+ bleeds, you have to dodge those attack that apply bleeds and stop wondering, why you die ten seconds later.

Lets take an autoatack that deals 500dmg and applies a 5second bleed with 200 dmg/sec that hits you every second. In the end, thats only 1,5k dmg per hit so where is the problem?
In the end, you have 2 possibilities to counter this. Prevent it or do more damage than your foe. No difference to direct damage.

Your suggestions to change DoTs to burst skills….. what?

And I cant see any problem with conditions/dots in e-sport, as long as they are balanced.

One last advice, inform yourself about conditions and damage over time

Easy.
Make condi builds like power builds – nerf all condi duration /2, introduce condi duration on gear. Bam, condi spammer now forced to get 2 damage stats instead of one, bye-bye tanky condition builds.

Ezrael.6859:

Kolly.9872:

Conditions should have always been just for support in this game:
- control (immobilize, chill)
- anti-healing (poison)
-anti direct damage (weakness)
and so on

in the first place condition like burning and bleeding should never exist at all or at least the condition damage stat should have been removed from equipments age ago so that the only condition damage stat comes from traits.
Sadly it will never be like this

Exactly, they added far too much. 12 Conditions!

We should just have these conditions and their opposite boons:

Poison <~> Regeneration
Immobilize <~> Swiftness
Weakness <~> Might
Vulnerability <~> Protection
Chill <~> Vigor

Chill should also prevent dodge rolling like it did in beta.
Stability still exists as a boon but its role is simply to counter control effects like stuns and knockbacks.
Fear is bad, losing control of your character is a bad mechanic for PvP.

Blind and Aegis are not needed, missing should be down to positioning error or being outmaneuvered by a foe, not because your enemy can spam blinds.

Conditions for pure damage like Bleeding and Burning can only work if they function like large direct damage hits, high damage high cooldown, condition removal would then be the same with high cooldowns.
Condition damage then becomes something you burst or overpower with to end a fight. You can take condition removal but it has a long cooldown and you use it only to counter this possibility, in the same way you would bring a stun break in an attempt to counter a direct damage spike.

Instead we have constant spammy conditions from weapons (especially auto-attack), traits, utilities, AoE and pets, and huge amounts of condition removal.

Retaliation, Confusion and Torment are bad boons and conditions, punishing people for playing the game. They are lazy game mechanics, frustrating and not fun.

You’re just wrong. I’m sorry. Conditions are and have always been a good mechanic. Bleeding (Higher Dmg – Higher stacks), Burning (High Dmg short duration), bleeding (low dmg reduced healing) and even Torment (Higher Dmg for moving)

Though they are over the top currently Conditions in GW2 is done better than i’ve seen in any other game.

If all sources of dmg was direct dmg not only would you literally eliminate 3 – 4 classes but the game would also be BORING. I mean from the sound of it the game should just be 3 classes. Thief if you want to do melee damage, Guard if you want to tank, and ranger if you want to range. I mean the conditions add depth to the game that You don’t get from just learning to auto attacked lock down people and deal damage to them. It makes the game much more about managing your characters resources.

Retaliation is a great idea. It makes people decide if it is worth it to continue their attack or not. And brings classes, like guards, the ability to actually deal dam though the use of their defense. Blind allows classes. Like Thieves and even necros to play in an entirely new style being able to be in melee range with classes like warriors and instead of just building tank are able to play their cards right and stay toe to toe with them. Fear is just another form of CC. And after fighting WoW vanilla rouges (where you just sit still for hours in stun) its really not that bad to have a CC form that moves you around. Its is just like guard knock back though its even easier to cleanse.

TL:DR – Conditions are Over the top and condition clears are underwhelming at best that doesn’t mean that conditions as a whole are wrong just not in the right spot yet

whyme.3281:

@Ezrael: I cant see why you have a problem with conditions. I think you have no idea, what a Dot is, or conditions in general.

One example:
We have a Warrior hitting you with 2k every second, what can you do to prevent this? Block, dodge, heal, run away, invunerability….
Now we have a Condition-build, that puts bleed on you. What can you do to prevent this? Block (im not sure here), dodge, heal, run away,invunerability ….. and aditionaly you can remove these conditions with a lot of skills.

At the end, its both damage. And now comes the big secret, you dont have to wonder, why died to 10+ bleeds, you have to dodge those attack that apply bleeds and stop wondering, why you die ten seconds later.

Lets take an autoatack that deals 500dmg and applies a 5second bleed with 200 dmg/sec that hits you every second. In the end, thats only 1,5k dmg per hit so where is the problem?
In the end, you have 2 possibilities to counter this. Prevent it or do more damage than your foe. No difference to direct damage.

Your suggestions to change DoTs to burst skills….. what?

And I cant see any problem with conditions/dots in e-sport, as long as they are balanced.

One last advice, inform yourself about conditions and damage over time

Well i don’t know about what that guy was talking about but you’re right conditions are damage just like direct just currently (along side power) is just over doing a lot of builds.

The issue is unlike direct damage most condition applications aren’t readable therefor are hard to counter. Like a like a warrior whos charging in to 100 blades you can easily roll or just walk around him because you see that animation, same with guards who are spinning, or rouges who went invis in the middle of a fight, or rangers who are using rapid shot. But a necro who is using signet of spite? Or dropping conditions off his weapons. How do you see/dodge or avoid those? are you suppose to just read his mind? or just continually dodge?

On top of that. When you look at most auto attacks you get hit, it starts to hurt, you find a way to stop it (invlun, Line of sight, blocks, dodges yada yada). But when it comes to Autos that apply bleeds they do the same thing but once you have those stacks on you you’re stuck with that damage no matter where you go.

And then is the balance for condition clears next to conduction application which really should be close to even with applications being a little higher. But it isn’t conditions clears (most of them) are on 45 – 60 sec CDs.
Which is added to the fact that you can’t outrun Condis that are applied, or invlu because if they are on you they still tick, not to mention a lot of them (such as traps, and marks) are unblockable. leaving dodging what once every 10 secs?

Darek.1836:

Tracker.6483:

Change max stacks to 15 in pvp only.

Boom. Issue fixed.

completely clueless, please shut your mouth.

Some constructive comments in your reply would be appreciated or else you’re not really contributing to the discussion.

I believe the main problem with condition damage is when the stacks get too high/duration is too long.

This is why I think reducing the stacks across the board in pvp only is a fairly quick/easy fix, and more easily tested than multiple tweaks across professions and talent trees.

If we can find the sweet spot and reduce accordingly condition damage can be brought in line without hitting each professions skills and talents individually.

Tracker.6483:

Darek.1836:

Tracker.6483:

Change max stacks to 15 in pvp only.

Boom. Issue fixed.

completely clueless, please shut your mouth.

Some constructive comments in your reply would be appreciated or else you’re not really contributing to the discussion.

I believe the main problem with condition damage is when the stacks get too high/duration is too long.

This is why I think reducing the stacks across the board in pvp only is a fairly quick/easy fix, and more easily tested than multiple tweaks across professions and talent trees.

If we can find the sweet spot and reduce accordingly condition damage can be brought in line without hitting each professions skills and talents individually.

Its not a terrible idea to be honest. But it also won’t fix whats wrong. Its not getting to 25 stacks that kills you in PvP (which normally only really happens when you get jumped in where you would die anyway) Its the constant application of it (around 8 – 15 stacks) that area constantly able to be held up along with the easy application of many other disabling conditions.

TL:DR lowering max stacks won’t actually reduce the dmg/tankiness of many of the classes that are facerolling with conditions.

whyme.3281:

@Ezrael: I cant see why you have a problem with conditions. I think you have no idea, what a Dot is, or conditions in general.

One example:
We have a Warrior hitting you with 2k every second, what can you do to prevent this? Block, dodge, heal, run away, invunerability….
Now we have a Condition-build, that puts bleed on you. What can you do to prevent this? Block (im not sure here), dodge, heal, run away,invunerability ….. and aditionaly you can remove these conditions with a lot of skills.

At the end, its both damage. And now comes the big secret, you dont have to wonder, why died to 10+ bleeds, you have to dodge those attack that apply bleeds and stop wondering, why you die ten seconds later.

Lets take an autoatack that deals 500dmg and applies a 5second bleed with 200 dmg/sec that hits you every second. In the end, thats only 1,5k dmg per hit so where is the problem?
In the end, you have 2 possibilities to counter this. Prevent it or do more damage than your foe. No difference to direct damage.

Your suggestions to change DoTs to burst skills….. what?

And I cant see any problem with conditions/dots in e-sport, as long as they are balanced.

One last advice, inform yourself about conditions and damage over time

Do you realise how powerful condition damage is?

I just did a test with my Necro and Guardian.

Guardian Berserker Amulet, 30pts in Power, 30pts in Precision. Greatsword and Fire Sigil.
15.64 seconds to kill a heavy golem with auto-attack.

Necro Rabid Amulet, 30pts Power, 30pts Precision. Scepter and Earth Sigil.
16.72 seconds to kill the heavy golem with auto-attack.

But the big difference. Greatsword auto-attack range ~ 130. Scepter ~ 900.
It has comparable DPS but at 7x the range with quick stacking damage rather than easily dodge-able damage.

You can watch for the Greatsword animation and dodge the 3rd strike avoiding 1250-3000 damage depending on the build and crit.

Against Scepter auto-attack there is nothing specific to dodge, the bleeding and poison just constantly stacks up a little bit at a time until it becomes 1000 bleeding damage a second after just 3 auto-attack chains! + constant Poison.

Ranged condition application is far easier in this game than playing as a melee class, and ranged classes get far more ways to kite an opponent than a melee gets to close the gap.

Kentrey.3251:

The issue is unlike direct damage most condition applications aren’t readable therefor are hard to counter. Like a like a warrior whos charging in to 100 blades you can easily roll or just walk around him because you see that animation, same with guards who are spinning, or rouges who went invis in the middle of a fight, or rangers who are using rapid shot. But a necro who is using signet of spite? Or dropping conditions off his weapons. How do you see/dodge or avoid those? are you suppose to just read his mind? or just continually dodge?

It is definitely possible to see and dodge specific condition skills. For example, signet of spite makes a huge signet appear above the necro’s head.

Marks all have a 3/4 second cast time, and they all look similar when the necro is casting them. Basically when a necro’s in staff, anything that’s not the autoattack is something you should hope to dodge or interrupt.

For scepter, you may want to dodge poison, the third skill in the AA chain. It’s pretty easy to see coming because you’ll get hit with a bleed twice, and the next attack will be poison. You don’t have to look at the necro to know this one’s coming, just keep an eye on your condition bar.

The one thing that can’t be dodged is a condition proc, such as dhuumfire. Those function as free damage currently. However, if you dodge well you should have some extra condition removal or healing left to deal with one burn proc per ten seconds.

Kentrey.3251:

And then is the balance for condition clears next to conduction application which really should be close to even with applications being a little higher. But it isn’t conditions clears (most of them) are on 45 – 60 sec CDs.
Which is added to the fact that you can’t outrun Condis that are applied, or invlu because if they are on you they still tick, not to mention a lot of them (such as traps, and marks) are unblockable. leaving dodging what once every 10 secs?

But lets take an direct damage attack as example that deals the same damage than the DoTs would deal. At the point you run around the corner with Dots on you (that would kill you), you would already be dead in front of the corner with direct damage hiting you.

Conditions only need some other playstile to counter them. Its true, that you dont see them like 100blades, but on the other hand, a dodge is a dodge and you dont have to wonder why you die to them, with full endurance. On the other hand you have to trigger your invulnerability earlier, because you dont get new conditions, but those that are still on you deal damage. An early block saves your kitten later in the fight. The trick of conditions is the delay in the mechanic. People dont see thos great numbers until its too late.

I think we should differentiate attack animations and the damage of conditions, maybe some of the skills need some visual rework to show that they are stronger. But this doesnt mean that conditions are too strong.

Kentrey.3251:

Tracker.6483:

Darek.1836:

Tracker.6483:

Change max stacks to 15 in pvp only.

Boom. Issue fixed.

completely clueless, please shut your mouth.

Some constructive comments in your reply would be appreciated or else you’re not really contributing to the discussion.

I believe the main problem with condition damage is when the stacks get too high/duration is too long.

This is why I think reducing the stacks across the board in pvp only is a fairly quick/easy fix, and more easily tested than multiple tweaks across professions and talent trees.

If we can find the sweet spot and reduce accordingly condition damage can be brought in line without hitting each professions skills and talents individually.

Its not a terrible idea to be honest. But it also won’t fix whats wrong. Its not getting to 25 stacks that kills you in PvP (which normally only really happens when you get jumped in where you would die anyway) Its the constant application of it (around 8 – 15 stacks) that area constantly able to be held up along with the easy application of many other disabling conditions.

TL:DR lowering max stacks won’t actually reduce the dmg/tankiness of many of the classes that are facerolling with conditions.

Thanks for the constructive reply.
I think the help will come in two ways from reducing stacks.

1. Those that can apply stacks really quickly will have their “condi burst” curtailed. I call it “burst”, because some condi builds can bring you down quicker than direct damage with quickly applied high stacks. 25 stacks of bleed can hit for 2500/sec and more all by itself.

2. The lower stack count discourages too many condition players on a team. If you have too many condition players bombing away, the stack limit will lower how much condi-burst the group can do at once.

@Ezreal: To compensate this range issue, use greatsword 3 and 5 to close the gap between your enemy.

If you dodge every third attack of the necro, you dont get poisoned or “block” 2 bleeds, for example. In the end, you blocked 1-2k dmg.

And try the same thing on the small golem and the conditionbuild will be alot slower

My final suggestion is that any type of ACTIVE condition removal should prevent further condition application for a short period of time (2 seconds?)

In this way you can get a breather from Fear spam to death or other lockdowns like stun with one of your precious condition removal utilities.

This would make active condition removal a little stronger, while not rewarding passive removal like that of the Ranger’s which is already strong.

NevirSayDie.6235:

It is definitely possible to see and dodge specific condition skills. For example, signet of spite makes a huge signet appear above the necro’s head.

Marks all have a 3/4 second cast time, and they all look similar when the necro is casting them. Basically when a necro’s in staff, anything that’s not the autoattack is something you should hope to dodge or interrupt.

For scepter, you may want to dodge poison, the third skill in the AA chain. It’s pretty easy to see coming because you’ll get hit with a bleed twice, and the next attack will be poison. You don’t have to look at the necro to know this one’s coming, just keep an eye on your condition bar.

The one thing that can’t be dodged is a condition proc, such as dhuumfire. Those function as free damage currently. However, if you dodge well you should have some extra condition removal or healing left to deal with one burn proc per ten seconds.

If the signet is anything like all of the other signets in the game something tells me it doesn’t appear before its used to give a normal person a chance to dodge and a 3 – 4 second cast time for such a giant burst of damage isn’t what i would call readable looking at like churning earth from eles with like a 2 sec cast time or 100 blades from warriors with like a 2 sec channel.

Marks aren’t hard to dodge when they are already down. But if you’re fighting a necro all you notice is him moving his hands casting. And since marks insta activate the second you put them down there is no counter play to it. (such as dodge the more dangerous of them) Unless you’re going to dodge 4 times in a row for each of the times he’s moves his hands (because you can’t read the difference between them) there is no counting the application of staff.

And the poison from scepter is never really an issue (though i still haven’t noticed a noticeable weapon animation from that skill). its the auto attacks that constantly stack bleed on you. So if you are running condi clears (the end all counter to conditions. haha) All they need to do is hang back let the auto attack do the forward work and once you’ve ‘wasted’ your high CD condi clears on the like 6 – 8 stacks you’re set up for getting hit with the big ones. Or if you ‘waste’ your clears on the big ones they open up with the auto attack just restacks those bleeds on you with out any way to counter it. Unlike warrior autos you have to outrun or dodge, or ranger autos where you need to dodge/LoS you can’t out run bleeds especially when they are applied so easily and quickly.

Though thanks for the advice. To be honest i personally also have my thief and warrior leveled. So instead of running my guardian in tournies and WvW i just play one of those. I personally have 0 issues with both engies or necros. But conditions as they are now are just not where they should be. and something does need to happen with them weather it be:

-They become a true primary source of damage and they then require a lot of investment to make do max damage
-Their application CD becomes on par with the removal (aka they aren’t on 5 sec CD skills, or along with fast applying auto attacks)
-Their skills become more readable (such as marks having a 1 – 2 sec after cast timer (aka once they are on the ground you have a chance [if you’re fast] to actually dodge it meaning necros would have to bait out dodges)
-They become more of a secondary damage (meaning that condtions themselves NEED to be toned down mostly in dmg so that having a engi or necro open up condition heavy/tank builds on you doesn’t hit like glass cannons)

or something i am maybe not seeing

Kentrey.3251:

Though thanks for the advice. To be honest i personally also have my thief and warrior leveled. So instead of running my guardian in tournies and WvW i just play one of those. I personally have 0 issues with both engies or necros. But conditions as they are now are just not where they should be. and something does need to happen with them weather it be:

-They become a true primary source of damage and they then require a lot of investment to make do max damage
-Their application CD becomes on par with the removal (aka they aren’t on 5 sec CD skills, or along with fast applying auto attacks)
-Their skills become more readable (such as marks having a 1 – 2 sec after cast timer (aka once they are on the ground you have a chance [if you’re fast] to actually dodge it meaning necros would have to bait out dodges)
-They become more of a secondary damage (meaning that condtions themselves NEED to be toned down mostly in dmg so that having a engi or necro open up condition heavy/tank builds on you doesn’t hit like glass cannons)

or something i am maybe not seeing

Fair enough. Although I’d say that if you currently beat condition specs, then they probably don’t need to be nerfed so hard as you suggest. I don’t usually play condition specs, but one of my favorite parts of the game is all the micromanaging/rapid decision making regarding avoiding and managing conditions.

I can’t agree that condition removal should be on par with condition application. That would be like saying stability should be on par with cc. One completely negates the other, so equal amounts =/= balance.

Inutil.7634:

Sorry in advance for my poor english,

Condition damage got buffed 2-3 months ago, maybe because it was not “strong enough” for some people and the devs, and its not supposed to be strong, really, because like a lot of people in this forums already said, and realized, condition damage is made for being a SECONDARY source of damage, because for getting a strong condition damage you just need one stat: CONDITION DAMAGE, way far from power builds, that needs 3 stats for being strong, power + precision + critical damage.
Plus , the number of primary atributes on sets is 3, that, if you pay close attention is the number of stats that you need to have for getting a good power build damage (berzerker) , making condition damage even stronger, because you can have 2 defensive stats plus condition damage, having a rly good damage from conditions and good tankiness, its like having berzerker + soldier on the same set.

So, my points is, scale down A LITTLE , condition damage, not weak like it was before, extincting necros and condition builds from pvp.

Nerf conditions and condition cleansing.