Guild Wars 2

Im sorry, but I cant take this anymore, and this has to be said.

I really tried to endure in PvP, thinking that ‘’It is fine, it is fine, it is fine’’, but it seems like I finally reached my limit.

I am always observing every class, whenever I play PvP,
Which means that there is an easy way to tell a difference between, how much Kit or Skill is involved to play that Elite spec.

Most people could agree that supposed ’’balance’’ patches, more and more have been going downhill and ridiculous.

And now I am going to explain exactly why the guest of this topic is a failed experiment.
————————————————————
(But before I start, I expect that everyone is aware by now what DH can do and does)

Now lets move on to main problem – Dragon Hunters(DH), one of the most over tuned ’’offensive’’ elite specs out there.

After this recent ’’balance’’ patch, You can now clearly see DH true colors,
but sadly people were always crying,whining about ’’bunkers’’, and never paid attention to insta-kill specs.

Lets go in detail about DH kit, and how should they be changed to finally bring DH back in line:

Whoever designed Dragon Hunter, seriously didnt think this through.

1. First, … DH, is the only Elite spec, that has a clear, base buff on their Class Mechanic Skill,
   -F1, Unblockable, Piercing Instant cast Chain with Less CDR, more dmg, more utility.
   -F2, Leap with Less CDR, double heal.
   -F3, 5s long, AoE Block
   Combine this with Renewed Focus.

For you this seems like ’’meh’’, but considering that every single DH uses exactly the same Meditrapper build with Renewed Focus skill.
(I dont even see any reason why Anet ever decided to give a buff to DH mechanic skills)

Anet should have never touched these Skills.
These skills deserve to have their cooldowns and/or ’’values’’ reverted back to original.

But of these 3 skills, Shield of Courage(F3) is the most over tuned.
Either reduce Block duration down to 2 seconds or change it to ’’Grants Aegies and additional Aegies every 2 seconds over 4 seconds)

1. Second, … True Shot.
   As if over tuning Class Mechanics wasnt enough.

Here you have a 4second CD, Kill Shot.

And ‘’Try Dodging’’ isnt universal answer, combined with the amount of stuff that they got- Pull, Knockback, Chained in place, locked in place.

Either double the Cooldown and/or reduce damage by 20% at least.

1. Third and final, … Traps
   And if you thought that Class mechanics and weapon skills were the only ones that are over tuned, you would be wrong.

Just like everything else in their Kit, traps are over tuned to no end also.

Especially, their ’’Heal’’ trap (Purification), that has the highest base healing out of all healing skills. And combine this with Monks Focus (2k Heal when using meditation Skill)
Suggestion is simple, halve healing amount of this Trap.

Next, Dragons Maw,
Either reduce Duration of cage or double its size, so you could dodge within it.
——————————————————————————————————————————
Now combine all these skills and their traits, and you got this fantastic, 101% skill requiring MLG420Blaze360no-scope experiment class, who’s skill rotation is as follows – 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,F1,F2,F3.

And No, it has nothing to do with ’’l2p’’, DH has too much of everything, for little to no pay off, they dont get punished for missing or miss-using skills
There were only 2 classes that could ‘’deal with’’ DH, they were Mesmers and Druids.

Since the class ’’nerfs’’ and Removal of ‘’bunker-ish’’ runes/amulets,
It was like a Heavens call for DH and indirect nerf to any class that had some advantage over DH.

I dont mind being wrecked by Thieves or lets say…scrappers, because those classes actually take a some skill to play and very few people know how.

DH dictionary has no word related with ‘’skill to play’‘.
Every match now is almost decided by whoever got more DH in team, (implying that they know how to ’’rotate’’)

I tried really hard on multiple classes, yet every time i get facerolled, hardly managing to do anything against them.

TL;DR
PvP is a Disaster.
Dragon Hunters are seriously over tuned,
And need some serious adjustments.

L2P, troll, dh is in the worst class replies incoming.

I do not play a guardian so i cannot give to much input but i can say that the virtues are 100% an upgrade if you play a aggressive build, which every dh is. The core virtues are arguably better if you want to support/bunker since they have a larger range.

But the main thing i dislike about dh is how one dimensional it is compared to other elite specs. It is geared to only do damage and nothing else (compare that to let’s say chronomancer who can be a decent bunker or a burst machine).

foste.3098:

But the main thing i dislike about dh is how one dimensional it is compared to other elite specs. It is geared to only do damage and nothing else (compare that to let’s say chronomancer who can be a decent bunker or a burst machine).

Berserker is pure damags based (either direct or condi). Only one trait gives a bit of healing and none of the primal burst have any kind of defensive mechanics. Atleast DH got buffs to defensive virtues F2, F3. Berserker is more one dimensional.

For a class mechanic the core guardian virtues are really boring and you don’t even use the active effects that often. Dragon hunter virtues are more active and actually do something. Sure they are stronger than core virtues but I would rather see a buff to core virtues to make them worth while. The only core virtue that is better is virtue of justice if you are playing a burn guardian.

AivenPrimus.9184:

Either double the Cooldown and/or reduce damage by 20% at least.

The problem with True Shot is that it is essential part of DH’s sustained dps, if you take it away DH’s damage output is rubbish (already is). I think the problem is not the dps but the fact that it is dealt in one instance. If the damage remained the same but was spread to multiple hits I think there would be less complaining. And I know DH has good damage in pvp but it is in one burst, in pve you need sustained dps to be effective.

Maybe if True Shot was changed to something like “make your 5 next attacs apply burning and deal 20% more damage” kind of a skill? Dunno about the numbers, just an idea.

AivenPrimus.9184:

I dont mind being wrecked by Thieves or lets say…scrappers, because those classes actually take a some skill to play and very few people know how.

To my experience dragon hunter is actually harder to play than scrapper. Scrapper in fact is pretty easy to play when you get the hang of it and learn some basic rotations. Scrappers give me more hard time than DH, they have perma-regen, perma-retaliation and almost perma-protection, they also have 3xwaterfield blast on 20 CD, a trait that resets cooldown on healing skills when you reach 25% HP and at the same time you go invulnerable from another trait. I had some fun in pvp lobby killing training dummies with retaliation only.

Okay maybe DH is easier and more simple but scrapper is way easier to play effectively than DH. Ppl say that DH is only a problem on lower divisions but I’m playing on those lower divisions and I’m not seeing that, I more often run into a good scrappers than a good DH. Scrapper is a super faceroll class, you jump in middle of a fight with retal, prot and regen and you don’t even care if you are taking damage, and if for some reason you mess up and get low you can just reset the fight with self regulating defenses and stealth gyro.

foste.3098:

But the main thing i dislike about dh is how one dimensional it is compared to other elite specs. It is geared to only do damage and nothing else (compare that to let’s say chronomancer who can be a decent bunker or a burst machine).

I don’t really agree on this one, if you haven’t noticed DH has quite bit of CC . And actually I don’t think their damage output is all that high if we look at sustained dps.

TL;DR

owned again by a DH ;_;
=

DH gets nerfed every patch. reaper and scrapper are much more powerful and faceroll currently. DH has no presence in pro play either, and it was just nerfed again despite this.

guardian has always been the easiest class in the game to play, and will continue to be so. but one class must be the easiest, it just has to be that way. you can’t have nine classes and not have one be the easiest. regardless, if the skill difference between you and the DH who is rolling your face on the floor is a big as you think it is you wouldn’t be losing. you would be able to outplay and beat them.

DH is a damage spec with minor support. it has good ranged single target damage, and short bursts of CC and AOE damage. it has a defined role and play style. but it is very beatable, hence why it’s not seen in pro teams.

For me all elite spe are ok if you know how to play it… There are also incredible berserkers in pvp and Dh! Maybe they learn how to play it.

The problem is they don t offer a lot of group utility, like scrapper gyros, reaper condi, tempest aura, herald buff, druid support and daredevil mobility. This is why dh and berserker are not represented in pro.

OP> DH is actually pretty weak. I consider myself a fairly good guardian and what they did recently is that guardian, in any build, is almost a total crap.

If you are going to yell “nerf!” at something, look at necromancers, and as mentioned above, scrappers.

BTW, Dragon’s Maw is on SO long CD it can’t be nerfed any more. Just leave guardians be.

I play a DH and reading this long post is like please L2P pal. Come on, this balance patch is good and the Bunker system is kinda gone. You need four good partners and on voice communication to win good and close games. High time such posters need to stop trolling others.

Kinda have to agree with the op. The way I see this class now is that its almost perfect. Can do lots of dmg from afar but unlike ranger the guard is not squishy at all once u finally get in past that range and has way more options to keep up pressure and distance than ranger does. It seems to me even players that aren’t very good are still really annoying to take down if they playing dh.

I used to think the same but no, dragonhunters don’t have too much of everything, they are severly lacking in condi clear and sustain, all they give is might and fury with rune of the dragon hunter, they have almost no answer to cc and are weak to conditions. why do you think reapers have such an easy time with DH.

The only high end damage dealers are true, shot and procession of blades. everything else doesn’t really stand out compared to other classes unless u build up might first. nerfing true shot as said above would simply be too much. DH is fine as it is now. Also True shot is such a telegraphed attack that u really stand an fair chance of dodging it.

dragonhunter is a spec that just like berserker sacrifices sustain for pure burst. if that’s the case it should capable of dealind good dps. they already nerfed traps and their cc.

Eagelseye.6312:

I play a DH and reading this long post is like please L2P pal. Come on, this balance patch is good and the Bunker system is kinda gone. You need four good partners and on voice communication to win good and close games. High time such posters need to stop trolling others.

God thanks, totally agree here. Stop cry about the class that you can kill and learn how to kill it. The bunkerish meta is gone. Manage your dodge, cc, burst, dispel and win.

While not every class has access to it, Unblockable attacks can really tear through Guardians/DHs like nothing. I use Signet of Might on my Rifle Warrior and sometimes I just feel bad because there’s not much they can do about it. Wait for the shield then start bursting with it on. Wait for the heal and CC. I don’t even use Arms in my build but if I did I would be Unblockable even more frequently.

As a Scrapper with Slick Shoes you can also totally screw up DHs as well. What I will say is that True Shot could do with having its damage spread out. Maybe have it hit for a decent amount but then stick into the target for additional damage, but make that damage dodgeable/blockable.

I actually think it was a great idea. It plays a good bronzestomper role in that it separates the pros from the noobs but the skill floor and ceiling were low enough where both a pro and intermediate would have the same results with it. Name a dragon hunter and any ESL pro could take them out even with something it so-called “hard” counters. It isn’t the traps that are the most useful tool the DH has but the pull and 5s block. The class is good for baiting a roll for initiative from a thief but most should avoid the big fight at mid anyway at least at the start and should engage with a steal teleport anyway.

It seems like power rev and mender’s (formerly celestial from the last patch) druid counter DH.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

I used to think the same but no, dragonhunters don’t have too much of everything, they are severly lacking in condi clear and sustain, all they give is might and fury with rune of the dragon hunter, they have almost no answer to cc and are weak to conditions. why do you think reapers have such an easy time with DH.

The only high end damage dealers are true, shot and procession of blades. everything else doesn’t really stand out compared to other classes unless u build up might first. nerfing true shot as said above would simply be too much. DH is fine as it is now. Also True shot is such a telegraphed attack that u really stand an fair chance of dodging it.

dragonhunter is a spec that just like berserker sacrifices sustain for pure burst. if that’s the case it should capable of dealind good dps. they already nerfed traps and their cc.

Don’t forget their squishyness! !!

Anet’s failed experiment is not the Dragonhunter, it’s the Chronomancer.

rchu.8945:

Anet’s failed experiment is not the Dragonhunter, it’s the Chronomancer.

I would respectfully disagree. The necro buff was needed because they always get targeted first, at least in high elo. The survability of a necro on the battle field is less than 30 sec (depending on the necros and his opponent skills).

i played the other night and found most games were fun, but yes, the only thing annoying me was instantly exploding in fights verses DHs…

i fought scrappers, reapers, pretty much everything and won some, lost some,
but when “that one guy” is spamming node-wide CC-heavy oneshots what is the point of even trying to fight for that node?

some matches had several of these MLG360NoScope clones, and it was just dull to try and fight them.

so yeah i noticed the DH problem too

Remove berserker marauder valkyrie viper amulets
DH and revs might be ballanced in pve were they Maybe need sustain stats. But with theese dps stats it gets to much in sPVP , wvw

Like thiefs gaining more dps so they can spec sustain. Problem is they just go more dps and hit to much like DH.

The reward on taking more sustain on classes like warrior isent viable and war dps also to much on berserker amulet. Like kill shot. To stupid
On paladin amulet its a no go swap cause sustain Loose to damage

IMO DH is the most brain dead class today, i mean spam your traps and forget? but also against legendary even diamond players, DH traps or burst can easily be avoided. making DH useless and a rally bot for others. dont wanna say its a L2P issue but u gotta learn to play around and counter other class. from last meta if theres classes didnt get touch are scrappers and reaper. and warrior not being in any pvp meta since hot release also sucks. no other game is there a warrior unplayable than in gw2.

Hansen.3264:

Remove berserker marauder valkyrie viper amulets
DH and revs might be ballanced in pve were they Maybe need sustain stats. But with theese dps stats it gets to much in sPVP , wvw

Like thiefs gaining more dps so they can spec sustain. Problem is they just go more dps and hit to much like DH.

The reward on taking more sustain on classes like warrior isent viable and war dps also to much on berserker amulet. Like kill shot. To stupid
On paladin amulet its a no go swap cause sustain Loose to damage

That’s the dumbest proposal I have heard. Instead of learning to evade. You are actually asking Anet to remove the amulets ?? The op is dying to DH because they either counter his class or he keeps on running into their traps alone. A few words with his teammates might solve his issues instead of whining about trivial nonsensical stuff such as DH dps.q which is the only thing that keeps them viable.

People talk about condi pressure and what not,
but something that is written on a paper, not always is the same in reality.

Like I said before, people were too busy with bunkers (Durability rune + w/e).
Every match there were at least ~3 bunkers per team(druids,eles,mesmers)
Now that pretty much every bunker is dead, it is possible to see how ’’effective’’ DH really are.

DH is like a virus, which you dont seem to notice it at first, until it starts moving up the stages,

Those so called ’’nerf’’ did nothing about his core issue.
Anet merely fiddled with some random skills that had no difference on DH.

It would be best to cure them before it gets any worse,
And it is really getting annoying how everyone gets one-shotted after DH teleports(judges intervention) on them.

This ‘’lets just shove this problem under a rug’’ mentality should really stop.

DH might have a role in pvp but it’s not likely meta. Traps might be the easiest thing to die from if you have no clue how to play but any experienced player mostly laughs at the ease in which you can avoid them. The F1-F3 skills are not all that great, any one of them can be interrupted. Any decent thief laughs at a DH along with most classes.

Hansen.3264:

Remove berserker marauder valkyrie viper amulets
DH and revs might be ballanced in pve were they Maybe need sustain stats. But with theese dps stats it gets to much in sPVP , wvw

Like thiefs gaining more dps so they can spec sustain. Problem is they just go more dps and hit to much like DH.

The reward on taking more sustain on classes like warrior isent viable and war dps also to much on berserker amulet. Like kill shot. To stupid
On paladin amulet its a no go swap cause sustain Loose to damage

no way dude, u’d be killing several classes and builds cause of a class just cause DH have high dps? they litterally cannot offer anything else. support guards are death, no amount of passive healing can deal with the tons of cc and power running around, they are so many classes now that can actually do the guards job of support better. u’d be removing the guardian/DH entirely.

thiefs were in need of a dps boost, so that they can spec sustain u talk as if it’s a bad thing, each class needs surviability even the thief. which they were lacking off. and even now thiefs have low anti cc abilities and are only a mediocore against conditions.

thiefs hitting as hard as a dragonhunter, is justifed. assuming they do indeed hit as hard they are still completely killable, this time u simply cannot faceroll them and actually have to think. instead of mindlessly auto attacking or blowing all your cd’s.

AivenPrimus.9184:

People talk about condi pressure and what not,
but something that is written on a paper, not always is the same in reality.

Like I said before, people were too busy with bunkers (Durability rune + w/e).
Every match there were at least ~3 bunkers per team(druids,eles,mesmers)
Now that pretty much every bunker is dead, it is possible to see how ’’effective’’ DH really are.

DH is like a virus, which you dont seem to notice it at first, until it starts moving up the stages,

Those so called ’’nerf’’ did nothing about his core issue.
Anet merely fiddled with some random skills that had no difference on DH.

It would be best to cure them before it gets any worse,
And it is really getting annoying how everyone gets one-shotted after DH teleports(judges intervention) on them.

This ‘’lets just shove this problem under a rug’’ mentality should really stop.

Lol,you are saying condi pressure is a myth?? Why can’t you treat a dh like a bunker then? I remember back then you needed at least 3 people to kill a bunker. Anyone who knows what he is doing can 1 vs 1 a Dh, 2 vs 1 a Dh is a definitive win. Again your argument is invalid.

They should have designed Dragonhunter with PvE in mind instead of designing it with mechanics just for PvP.

A few comments:

• at pro level, DH is not played anymore, because it is bad
• DH medi-trapper is a noob-stomping build.

This being said

• DH virtues are not instant (while guardians are). That is why many people complained in the forum and they buffed them to make up for it. In my opinion, DH virtues should be stronger but without ally effect, so trading ally support for stronger personal defense/offense. F1 does that already. F2 still heals allies, which I think should be removed, but a higher self-heal + mobility is fine. F3 for guardian is underwhelming, it is better for DH. But here, I think buff the guardian one (1 aegis on more than 40s CD?)
• traps are not that well-designed. They are too strong for noobs who don’t dodge them, too weak for non-noobs who dodge them. The DH sacrifices meditations (meaning healing and defensive utilities) for them. The trap trait is annoying, just spamming daze, but does not really add flavor.

So yes, this needs to be improved.

Why theres ppl saying that DH is stronger than scrappers/reapers/etc? Why? WHY?

The suggestions from the OP would pretty much wreck DH. Sounds less like a balance suggestion and more like sourgrapes.

For some one who plays Ranger, Necro, Rev, the OP can’t beat a DH? Are you a Thief instead?

Word of the wise, stop triggering Purification. You know, that 1 stationary trap that’s the life force of a DH.
Dodge F1 or pop stability when it hits you.
Lastly, don’t play a thiev vs a guardian.

Dragonhunter isn’t a failed experiment; it’s a failed design.

It was mocked when first previewed and BWE1 showed that the idea didn’t hold water. In order to salvage it, Karl (the same guy now in charge of balance) buffed the crap out of the numbers while leaving the flawed underlying mechanics. That’s how we arrived at the current Dragonhunter. It’s a mess and needs re-designed.

Exedore.6320:

Dragonhunter isn’t a failed experiment; it’s a failed design.

It was mocked when first previewed and BWE1 showed that the idea didn’t hold water. In order to salvage it, Karl (the same guy now in charge of balance) buffed the crap out of the numbers while leaving the flawed underlying mechanics. That’s how we arrived at the current Dragonhunter. It’s a mess and needs re-designed.

He also designed Daredevil and Tempest.

Interesting that the fate of those two classes is pretty much identical.

Maw being made a bigger AOE enough to allow a dodge roll within it would probably put the spec into the realm of reason without really needing numbers tweaks. My issue fighting against DH’s is that once you’re mawed, you either have stability or an invuln or you straight up die. You can see the incoming True shot and go to dodge, but it means nothing since you’ll be CC-locked during the dodge and get hit by the ability, anyways.

A lot of the design in the elite specs is horrible, though. I think only the reaper is well-designed, but just currently its condi build is a little overtuned (power reaper is imho a very fair build). The rest are just straight up upgrades or conceptual failures forcibly implemented.

Exedore.6320:

Dragonhunter isn’t a failed experiment; it’s a failed design.

It was mocked when first previewed and BWE1 showed that the idea didn’t hold water. In order to salvage it, Karl (the same guy now in charge of balance) buffed the crap out of the numbers while leaving the flawed underlying mechanics. That’s how we arrived at the current Dragonhunter. It’s a mess and needs re-designed.

Woh, that’s definitely not true.

Players hated the concept of the DH mainly because they didn’t understand what Specializations mean/was… even after it was explained to them by devs and other players. Albeit the name is still a bit much, in fact, that was the biggest dislike (72+ page thread) about DH.

Play wise, it was slow and clunky, people didn’t like it till the clunkiness got removed around the 3rd Beta test or release phase. A handful of people still didn’t like the concept but the majority absolutely did on release.

DH was one of the first specs that got released. You had mixed reviews but no one went back to “I hate the class” or “It’s a bad design”, etc… Quite the opposite really.

Players started to like the new concept design because it was completely different to what Guardian was, the uniqueness of Guardian gameplay. The only other class that came close to this unique gameplay is Reapers. Everyone else were pretty much the same in terms of playstyle…imo.

Ladies and Jets i will sum it up,

L2P against DH

Saiyan.1704:

Woh, that’s definitely not true.

Keep living in fantasy land.

Chronomancer and Reaper were previewed on either side of Dragonhunter and both were well received. Yes, there were complaints about the “Dragonhunter” name and players who expected a ranged support spec were upset. But if the concept had worked, not many would have cared.

Yes, it was clunky initially because it was using mechanics based on existing abilities. They didn’t fit together (e.g. longbow wants to keep players at range, traps want them to be close) and still don’t. The only thing that saved it was overbuffed mechanics so that it didn’t matter how poor the design was; you just threw out a ton of damage, healing, and CC in quick succession so the design flaws are no longer noticeable.

Please rationalize how a 10k heal on a 30sec CD (less with traits) is not propping up the profession? Or maybe CC + stability for hitting anything in 600yd, no matter how many times it’s blocked or dodged before it lands? Utility slot traps have already been nerfed in damage because it was at ridiculous levels. Players still complain about how clunky the cast-time virtues are, especially when trying to use them with base traits.

And even with how overbuffed DH is, it will only see play in ESL because of the “one profession per team” rule. That’s because all its damage relies on gimmicks which skilled players can avoid. DH has a complete lack of depth because of it’s underlying poor design.

kdaddy.5431:

Ladies and Jets i will sum it up,

L2P against DH

or just play scrapper & only pay attention when the enemy is condi. you can just blindly spam rotations vs power builds & win easily.

Exedore.6320:

Saiyan.1704:

Woh, that’s definitely not true.

Keep living in fantasy land.

Chronomancer and Reaper were previewed on either side of Dragonhunter and both were well received. Yes, there were complaints about the “Dragonhunter” name and players who expected a ranged support spec were upset. But if the concept had worked, not many would have cared.

Yes, it was clunky initially because it was using mechanics based on existing abilities. They didn’t fit together (e.g. longbow wants to keep players at range, traps want them to be close) and still don’t. The only thing that saved it was overbuffed mechanics so that it didn’t matter how poor the design was; you just threw out a ton of damage, healing, and CC in quick succession so the design flaws are no longer noticeable.

Please rationalize how a 10k heal on a 30sec CD (less with traits) is not propping up the profession? Or maybe CC + stability for hitting anything in 600yd, no matter how many times it’s blocked or dodged before it lands? Utility slot traps have already been nerfed in damage because it was at ridiculous levels. Players still complain about how clunky the cast-time virtues are, especially when trying to use them with base traits.

And even with how overbuffed DH is, it will only see play in ESL because of the “one profession per team” rule. That’s because all its damage relies on gimmicks which skilled players can avoid. DH has a complete lack of depth because of it’s underlying poor design.

You’re confusing concept design with balance design and TPvP viability… they are two completely different discussions.

How a class is “well percieved” at first reveal doesn’t mean a thing… it just means the Devs have less work to do in terms of class skill changes to please the crowd. That’s all. What’s more important is the Final release. DH did not get a negative review on concept design.

The only thing Guard forums are talking about atm is Virtues cast times, hardly a concept design (Guardian lore, LB, Traps, etc) discussion or issue. Again, there hasn’t been a concept issue since before HoT release.

Edit
I forgot there was 1 concept issue that had to do with Guardian team support vs Druid team support and how Druid took this aspect away from us. Still doesn’t pertain to this discussion though.

I really don’t get the complaining about wings of resolve. It’s a great heal and with low cd, but it’s interrupteble. I can’t count the number of frustrating times i’ve had the heal interrupted. It’s irritating but unlike other guardians i can understand that the delayed cast time of F2 is the trade off for a bigger heal with a lower cd.

AivenPrimus.9184:

1. First, … DH, is the only Elite spec, that has a clear, base buff on their Class Mechanic Skill,
   -F1, Unblockable, Piercing Instant cast Chain with Less CDR, more dmg, more utility.
   -F2, Leap with Less CDR, double heal.
   -F3, 5s long, AoE Block
   Combine this with Renewed Focus.

For you this seems like ’’meh’’, but considering that every single DH uses exactly the same Meditrapper build with Renewed Focus skill.
(I dont even see any reason why Anet ever decided to give a buff to DH mechanic skills)

1) Every DH virtue has cast time and can be interruped -whereas Guardian’s virtues were instant-.

2) F2 doesn’t double heal; the base regeneration is fairly weak and you lose it activating the virtue. This skill is more important in terms of mobility than due the heal, must ad.

3) F3 block is weak; at best you have a 5 second projectile block each ~65 seconds. To put this in perspective: untraited Wall of Reflection provides 10 seconds each 40 seconds and Revenant’s hammer #4 gives you a 6 second projectile block each 12.

4) Both Guardians and Demon Hunter specialization remains usless in high level PvP matches since the Heart of Thorns three months and half ago. Despite this, the traps got nerfed in cc and arguably the class will remain not-viable in the Pro League season 2 (which grants at least another three months of uselesness until the next patch, expected after the end of the regular PvP League season 2.

5) Guardian players using more than 1-2 traps are arguably terribad; other players recurrently dying against Dragon Hunters stacking traps are arguably worse than terribad. This is not a “learn to play problem” due players which insist in eating one time and other and other the same terribad trappers are clearly unable to learn, so the best they can do -for the heatlh of their own team mates and the PvP comunity is just ragequit and uninstall.

In PvP core Guardians already had a good spot in the game since the beguining due thir role as holders/supporterss, a very boring task but at least they did that honorably. HoT introduced bunkers that did the bunker and support part better than Guardians (Mesmers, Druids) and bruisers capable to tank and destroy Guardians/DH in 1 vs 1 ( Revenants, Scrappers).

Not a single complaint about DH in the last four montths in is this forum was proved truthful in competitive gameplay, so please stop being that bad at playing.

Saiyan.1704:

For some one who plays Ranger, Necro, Rev, the OP can’t beat a DH? Are you a Thief instead?

Word of the wise, stop triggering Purification. You know, that 1 stationary trap that’s the life force of a DH.
Dodge F1 or pop stability when it hits you.
Lastly, don’t play a thiev vs a guardian.

Toker could beat any guardian quite easily. And FYI I’ve rocked some guardians hard on my thief and I don’t go dagger/pistol though might try it in place of shortbow.

Saiyan.1704:

You’re confusing concept design with balance design and TPvP viability… they are two completely different discussions.

Far from it. Concept and class design are interwoven. Balance has to be part of that. My comment about TPvP was an example to demonstrate the flaws in the design.

The concept for Dragonhunter was never fully there nor connected to abilities it received. It was poorly introduced and supplemental descriptions said it was a spec focused on hunting dragons… “like a witchhunter”. Okay, so why does it have a longbow or traps? What playstyle should it have? There was nothing to tie that idea to gameplay, so it was already off to a poor start.

Then you have major pieces: Longbow, Traps, and New Virtues. They have almost no synergy with each other and the synergy with the core is also lacking. Adding the pull to Spear of Justice in BWE3 at least helped tie the new virtues to traps. That’s another failure of the design before we even get to balance. And when players tested it during the BWEs, it was obvious there was no theme or playstyle to the spec; nothing tied it together and there still isn’t much to tie it together.

Where balance comes into play is masking the design failure. If the mechanics are poor, just overbuff the numbers until it’s viable no matter how clunky or mangled the design is. However, this tactic usually leads to a very shallow playstyle with overly high damage and sustain, as is the case with Dragonhunter. If you try to balance the numbers, it’s no longer fun or it’s just plain frustrating because you’re fighting the mechanics. If you leave the numbers high, it remains at the top for simple scenarios (mid level PvP, most of PvE), but when depth starts to matter, it falls apart.

How does that not describe Dragonhunter’s problems?

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

I used to think the same but no, dragonhunters don’t have too much of everything, they are severly lacking in condi clear and sustain, all they give is might and fury with rune of the dragon hunter, they have almost no answer to cc and are weak to conditions. why do you think reapers have such an easy time with DH.

The only high end damage dealers are true, shot and procession of blades. everything else doesn’t really stand out compared to other classes unless u build up might first. nerfing true shot as said above would simply be too much. DH is fine as it is now. Also True shot is such a telegraphed attack that u really stand an fair chance of dodging it.

dragonhunter is a spec that just like berserker sacrifices sustain for pure burst. if that’s the case it should capable of dealind good dps. they already nerfed traps and their cc.

I stopped reading when I read the lack of condi clear and sustain.

Do you want me to give you builds that say otherwise?

DH is weaker compared to other specs which is very true but might please do some fact checking before you claim stuff.

If you play heavy trap DH, ya it’s weak to conditions. But when you mix it with meditations and Valor traits, conditions aren’t any more of a problem for DH than any other spec.

Its all a scam, they just want people to buy these builds. Balancing the game for e-sport viability is not really something they care about. They fooled me once they aren’t going to fool me twice.

Buran.3796:

AivenPrimus.9184:

1. First, … DH, is the only Elite spec, that has a clear, base buff on their Class Mechanic Skill,
   -F1, Unblockable, Piercing Instant cast Chain with Less CDR, more dmg, more utility.
   -F2, Leap with Less CDR, double heal.
   -F3, 5s long, AoE Block
   Combine this with Renewed Focus.

For you this seems like ’’meh’’, but considering that every single DH uses exactly the same Meditrapper build with Renewed Focus skill.
(I dont even see any reason why Anet ever decided to give a buff to DH mechanic skills)

1) Every DH virtue has cast time and can be interruped -whereas Guardian’s virtues were instant-.

2) F2 doesn’t double heal; the base regeneration is fairly weak and you lose it activating the virtue. This skill is more important in terms of mobility than due the heal, must ad.

3) F3 block is weak; at best you have a 5 second projectile block each ~65 seconds. To put this in perspective: untraited Wall of Reflection provides 10 seconds each 40 seconds and Revenant’s hammer #4 gives you a 6 second projectile block each 12.

4) Both Guardians and Demon Hunter specialization remains usless in high level PvP matches since the Heart of Thorns three months and half ago. Despite this, the traps got nerfed in cc and arguably the class will remain not-viable in the Pro League season 2 (which grants at least another three months of uselesness until the next patch, expected after the end of the regular PvP League season 2.

5) Guardian players using more than 1-2 traps are arguably terribad; other players recurrently dying against Dragon Hunters stacking traps are arguably worse than terribad. This is not a “learn to play problem” due players which insist in eating one time and other and other the same terribad trappers are clearly unable to learn, so the best they can do -for the heatlh of their own team mates and the PvP comunity is just ragequit and uninstall.

In PvP core Guardians already had a good spot in the game since the beguining due thir role as holders/supporterss, a very boring task but at least they did that honorably. HoT introduced bunkers that did the bunker and support part better than Guardians (Mesmers, Druids) and bruisers capable to tank and destroy Guardians/DH in 1 vs 1 ( Revenants, Scrappers).

Not a single complaint about DH in the last four montths in is this forum was proved truthful in competitive gameplay, so please stop being that bad at playing.

IIRC F3 blocks everything, not just projectiles. Could be wrong tho. F3 could be even used for safe stomping.

Stopped reading at scrapper takes skill. You’re fine with scrapper, which is basically D/D ele 2.0, but are not OK with DH. Does DH do a lot of damage? Yes, since most go for DPS amulets. Does true shot need to be tweaked? Yes. I’m thinking something along the lines of a 50% CD increase and about 20-25% more damage to make it so that it isn’t weaker than autos. They fixed shield of courage so you can actually damage them if you attack from behind iirc. Purification is only barely better than shelter (there’s a reason why people took shelter over signet of resolve which also cleansed conditions).

Honestly, DH is strong, but not OP. A few tweaks here and there and it’ll be solid (its still in a good spot at the moment).

choovanski.5462:

DH is a damage spec with minor support. it has good ranged single target damage, and short bursts of CC and AOE damage. it has a defined role and play style. but it is very beatable, hence why it’s not seen in pro teams.

I would have said its a CC spec, being based around traps and all. Leaving aside the fact that its not OP at a high level I would say the traps should do minimal damage, being largely cc and the bow should do the damage.

Exedore.6320:

Dragonhunter isn’t a failed experiment; it’s a failed design.

It was mocked when first previewed and BWE1 showed that the idea didn’t hold water. In order to salvage it, Karl (the same guy now in charge of balance) buffed the crap out of the numbers while leaving the flawed underlying mechanics. That’s how we arrived at the current Dragonhunter. It’s a mess and needs re-designed.

Is he actually in charge of balance?

choovanski.5462:

kdaddy.5431:

Ladies and Jets i will sum it up,

L2P against DH

or just play scrapper & only pay attention when the enemy is condi. you can just blindly spam rotations vs power builds & win easily.

Speaking of fantasyland…………………

morrolan.9608:

choovanski.5462:

DH is a damage spec with minor support. it has good ranged single target damage, and short bursts of CC and AOE damage. it has a defined role and play style. but it is very beatable, hence why it’s not seen in pro teams.

I would have said its a CC spec, being based around traps and all. Leaving aside the fact that its not OP at a high level I would say the traps should do minimal damage, being largely cc and the bow should do the damage.

trap CC was nerfed recently to a 1/2 sec daze. it’s hardly anything. maw has CC sure, but it is an elite skill. 1/2 sec of daze is pretty miserable, and it must be rembered that it is not baseline- it comes from a trait. so making traps do minimal damage actually means untraited traps would be terrible.

it’s a mostly damage spec with a small amount of CC I think. the bow does do most of the damage. if the DH is playing with a RF they will only have one damage trap which will do a tiny CC and an average damage burst every 20-26 seconds.

@morrolan. with scrapper you can just rotate blocks heals and evades while applying heavy pressure. it usually gets a win vs most players.

StickerHappy.8052:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

I used to think the same but no, dragonhunters don’t have too much of everything, they are severly lacking in condi clear and sustain, all they give is might and fury with rune of the dragon hunter, they have almost no answer to cc and are weak to conditions. why do you think reapers have such an easy time with DH.

The only high end damage dealers are true, shot and procession of blades. everything else doesn’t really stand out compared to other classes unless u build up might first. nerfing true shot as said above would simply be too much. DH is fine as it is now. Also True shot is such a telegraphed attack that u really stand an fair chance of dodging it.

dragonhunter is a spec that just like berserker sacrifices sustain for pure burst. if that’s the case it should capable of dealind good dps. they already nerfed traps and their cc.

I stopped reading when I read the lack of condi clear and sustain.

Do you want me to give you builds that say otherwise?

DH is weaker compared to other specs which is very true but might please do some fact checking before you claim stuff.

oh you stopped reading? you mean that single interruptable wings of resolve, smite and perhaps if the guy is not running procession of blades another utility smite condition? that’s really nothing. DH die incredibly quickly at higher levels and proffesional levels of gameplay. infact u can already see the difficulty curve for DH spike, the moment u reach diamond for DH.

revenants, condi reapers, and even just regular reapers with thier applications of conditions can just bombard you. non top tier builds that can apply conditions also do kittentons of damage condi wise, aka condi shatter mesmer, double pistol engineer, condi berserker, and no i’m not talking about win or lose here. but to say that a dragonhunter has an a-ok condi cleanse and sustain is really lying here.

infact i can even say that the sustain is argueble due to aegis and blocks but it’s definately not a tank, it’s sustain is mediocore at best.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

StickerHappy.8052:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

I used to think the same but no, dragonhunters don’t have too much of everything, they are severly lacking in condi clear and sustain, all they give is might and fury with rune of the dragon hunter, they have almost no answer to cc and are weak to conditions. why do you think reapers have such an easy time with DH.

The only high end damage dealers are true, shot and procession of blades. everything else doesn’t really stand out compared to other classes unless u build up might first. nerfing true shot as said above would simply be too much. DH is fine as it is now. Also True shot is such a telegraphed attack that u really stand an fair chance of dodging it.

dragonhunter is a spec that just like berserker sacrifices sustain for pure burst. if that’s the case it should capable of dealind good dps. they already nerfed traps and their cc.

I stopped reading when I read the lack of condi clear and sustain.

Do you want me to give you builds that say otherwise?

DH is weaker compared to other specs which is very true but might please do some fact checking before you claim stuff.

oh you stopped reading? you mean that single interruptable wings of resolve, smite and perhaps if the guy is not running procession of blades another utility smite condition? that’s really nothing. DH die incredibly quickly at higher levels and proffesional levels of gameplay. infact u can already see the difficulty curve for DH spike, the moment u reach diamond for DH.

revenants, condi reapers, and even just regular reapers with thier applications of conditions can just bombard you. non top tier builds that can apply conditions also do kittentons of damage condi wise, aka condi shatter mesmer, double pistol engineer, condi berserker, and no i’m not talking about win or lose here. but to say that a dragonhunter has an a-ok condi cleanse and sustain is really lying here.

infact i can even say that the sustain is argueble due to aegis and blocks but it’s definately not a tank, it’s sustain is mediocore at best.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAsdTnsABdDhVDBWdC8DhlEi6aZDgEIL/+vAUe5j+rH-TpQSABAs/QrlBAA

Do not tell me that DH have poor condition cleanses.

3 Condition Cleanses, 1 of which is on a very low Cd, 1 of which removes all conditions not to mention the ones you get from blocks (2x from f3 for 5 secs, Aegises you get, focus block) You also get 3 conditions removed on f2.

Do not tell me that this is not a viable build too, You can even go Maw if you wanted.,

Also you keep mentioning Higher levels of play, do you play in ESLs, AGs, Pro Leagues?

If not, why do you worry about these stuff?