Guild Wars 2

All the problems with the current rankings is because people are dependent on their teammates to win and yet rankings are individual based not team based – as indeed they should be without a more formal team system in place.

Real skill is displayed only during 1v1 where there’s no help and nowhere to run. Instead of custom arenas I really think Arenanet should introduce a specific dueling mode that is solely responsible for rankings. Maybe an area the size of the graveyard in “Legacy of the foefire”. Different maps can perhaps have some unique feature that change the nature of the fight.

But at least then you’ll have a solid ranking system in place. No one will be able to blame their loss on others, you don’t have to wait for a team to show up, the entire argument about solo/queue will vanish and the system will be truly transparent instead of now where the ranking algorithm is a secret.

There will be no way to manipulate the rankings. We can base it off the ELO ratings that games like chess employ. Maybe each duelling game can be a best of three. And glory can be rewarded proportionately to the shorter duelling match time vis a vis a full “hold the ground” set up.

Whatdya think?

As much as I like dueling, it simply wouldn’t work. Bunker v bunker would go forever and burst v burst would be done in an opener.

3v3 deathmatch however, that’s a different story. Being able to run a burst, bunker and hybrid support dps would make for great matches.

Edit: you would need to register as a team though and have a team rating and personal rating, very similar if not exactly the same as WoWs arena system but without “battlegroups”.

No, this is a team game with emphasis on team tactics and cooperation. Classes are balanced around that objective.

Costume brawl = duel imho if you want to see who is king! There is even a crown for the winner…

Thanks for the laugh OP.

I say dham yes

Too bad this game has nothing but team objectives best achieved through 3rd party voip

This is a team game, not street fighter.

The game is balanced around team fights, so no.

We still should have the option to duel our friends tho, dueling helps us improve our skills.

running away to heal up and then beat your opponent into a pulp is part of the game you know.

MarkPhilips.5169:

This is a team game, not street fighter.

No it’s definitely a street fighter game without the 1v1 aspect fully in play…

Without the ability to go one on one – spvp IS TOTALLY a street fighting, gang-up on and beat up ’til dead, proposition.

1v1 and raising health pools in spvp… rank vs gangs…

Ok ill just get #1 playing cantrip ele or bm ranger

Good luck warriors!

I give you a secret hint: look for other ppl out there, form a team and have fun, instead of being lonely and lost.

If there were enough sPvP population to support separate duel rankings, then this would be a nice feature for people who like to duel, but the numbers aren’t there, and it really isn’t as indicative of skill as team matches. With equally skilled players dueling is like a 25 variable version of paper, rock, scissors. I consider it unfun, but to each their own.

tpvp rankings should be based on the forms of pvp in this game. So far that’s ‘capture point’. Let’s hope for other forms, but this aside.

Duelling would cool, even though we can always find an empty server to do that, a real 1v1 ‘map’ would be nice.
If that is created, I see no harm in also making a 1v1 ladder.
That too would be a really good way to see who is good at it or not.

But saying that the current teamplay based tpvp should be measured by using 1v1 builds instead of team co-ordination?
No, don’t see the value in that.

lol.

/15 characters

MarkPhilips.5169:

This is a team game, not street fighter.

It is what we make it to be. There’s no set mold. For me, it’s a 1v1 game. When I go into sPvP, I go to maximize glory and win 1v1s. The team winning is less important than whether or not I was able to hold my own 1v1 vs all classes.

In tPvP I want to win the game more badly because I get an extra reward at the end. But team work is not really why I play.

So no – this is not a team game. It can be one for those who like teams and cooperation and that sort of thing. For the rest of us who like to go solo, that’s what it is.

And leaderboards and ranking only make sense in the context of a 1v1

bhagwad.4281:

MarkPhilips.5169:

This is a team game, not street fighter.

It is what we make it to be. There’s no set mold. For me, it’s a 1v1 game. When I go into sPvP, I go to maximize glory and win 1v1s. The team winning is less important than whether or not I was able to hold my own 1v1 vs all classes.

In tPvP I want to win the game more badly because I get an extra reward at the end. But team work is not really why I play.

So no – this is not a team game. It can be one for those who like teams and cooperation and that sort of thing. For the rest of us who like to go solo, that’s what it is.

And leaderboards and ranking only make sense in the context of a 1v1

well what happens when someone joins in on your 1 vs 1 fights?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

bhagwad.4281:

MarkPhilips.5169:

This is a team game, not street fighter.

It is what we make it to be. There’s no set mold. For me, it’s a 1v1 game. When I go into sPvP, I go to maximize glory and win 1v1s. The team winning is less important than whether or not I was able to hold my own 1v1 vs all classes.

In tPvP I want to win the game more badly because I get an extra reward at the end. But team work is not really why I play.

So no – this is not a team game. It can be one for those who like teams and cooperation and that sort of thing. For the rest of us who like to go solo, that’s what it is.

And leaderboards and ranking only make sense in the context of a 1v1

well what happens when someone joins in on your 1 vs 1 fights?

I’m talking about implementing a special dueling mode. A different from alongside hotjoin and tPvP.

bhagwad.4281:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

bhagwad.4281:

MarkPhilips.5169:

This is a team game, not street fighter.

It is what we make it to be. There’s no set mold. For me, it’s a 1v1 game. When I go into sPvP, I go to maximize glory and win 1v1s. The team winning is less important than whether or not I was able to hold my own 1v1 vs all classes.

In tPvP I want to win the game more badly because I get an extra reward at the end. But team work is not really why I play.

So no – this is not a team game. It can be one for those who like teams and cooperation and that sort of thing. For the rest of us who like to go solo, that’s what it is.

And leaderboards and ranking only make sense in the context of a 1v1

well what happens when someone joins in on your 1 vs 1 fights?

I’m talking about implementing a special dueling mode. A different from alongside hotjoin and tPvP.

that mode should have it’s own rankings indeed.

But the team based versions should have team based rankings, regardless of the fact you use it mostly for duelling.
Others use it for teamplay, so where would that leave their more supportive builds that are weaker in 1v1 killing?

You argue you don’t want to follow a mold, that everyone makes of the game what they want it to be (to some extend).
Yet you would force your own preference upon all those who like the ranking to be team based? Odd reasoning there…

Kimbald.2697:

bhagwad.4281:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

bhagwad.4281:

MarkPhilips.5169:

This is a team game, not street fighter.

It is what we make it to be. There’s no set mold. For me, it’s a 1v1 game. When I go into sPvP, I go to maximize glory and win 1v1s. The team winning is less important than whether or not I was able to hold my own 1v1 vs all classes.

In tPvP I want to win the game more badly because I get an extra reward at the end. But team work is not really why I play.

So no – this is not a team game. It can be one for those who like teams and cooperation and that sort of thing. For the rest of us who like to go solo, that’s what it is.

And leaderboards and ranking only make sense in the context of a 1v1

well what happens when someone joins in on your 1 vs 1 fights?

I’m talking about implementing a special dueling mode. A different from alongside hotjoin and tPvP.

that mode should have it’s own rankings indeed.

But the team based versions should have team based rankings, regardless of the fact you use it mostly for duelling.
Others use it for teamplay, so where would that leave their more supportive builds that are weaker in 1v1 killing?

You argue you don’t want to follow a mold, that everyone makes of the game what they want it to be (to some extend).
Yet you would force your own preference upon all those who like the ranking to be team based? Odd reasoning there…

Surely you agree that without a formalized and semi permanent team structure, team ranking will invariably be flawed? Now if they ranked teams instead of individuals that would make more sense. But like I said…how can they do that?

In any case I have no objections to team rankings as long as they implement another ranking set for duels.

Edit: A-Net has many things on their priority-list. And 1v1 duels are on the bottom of it (I hope it for this game though). 1v1 won’t work because this game is not balanced around 1v1. Second thing are the common builds that dominate the meta. It’s NOT fun to duel with a cantrip-ele or a bunker-guard.
We could say let’s restrict these two builds in duel-arenas. But then again, probably another build would pop in. Guess what? Yep, the boring BM-Ranger.
Because of these and other points i won’t list here, it’s a bad idea.

“real skill is displayed in 1on1” on the contrary, 1on1 has way more balance variables than 5vs5. Theres too much rock paper scissors, whereas in a 5vs5 u can more consistently win by compensating for each other.

i raise both hands to OP’s proposal

Valkyriez.6578:

As much as I like dueling, it simply wouldn’t work. Bunker v bunker would go forever and burst v burst would be done in an opener.

that’d be fine. draws award 0 points, bunkers can’t win.

Brassnautilus.2941:

i raise both hands to OP’s proposal

Valkyriez.6578:

As much as I like dueling, it simply wouldn’t work. Bunker v bunker would go forever and burst v burst would be done in an opener.

that’d be fine. draws award 0 points, bunkers can’t win.

Exactly. For those worried about bunker vs bunker, it’d work itself out since bunkers would be draws and no one gets points. So we’ll see more damage builds coming out. Or boon stripping builds.

Necros would be delighted to find a preponderance of guardians and eles will learn not to be so boon focused.

A 1v1 dueling system might be just what this game needs to encourage people to try new and innovative builds utilizing trait lines that were previously ignored.

bhagwad.4281:

Brassnautilus.2941:

i raise both hands to OP’s proposal

Valkyriez.6578:

As much as I like dueling, it simply wouldn’t work. Bunker v bunker would go forever and burst v burst would be done in an opener.

that’d be fine. draws award 0 points, bunkers can’t win.

Exactly. For those worried about bunker vs bunker, it’d work itself out since bunkers would be draws and no one gets points. So we’ll see more damage builds coming out. Or boon stripping builds.

Necros would be delighted to find a preponderance of guardians and eles will learn not to be so boon focused.

A 1v1 dueling system might be just what this game needs to encourage people to try new and innovative builds utilizing trait lines that were previously ignored.

This game can never work 1v1 since you can just buildwars the other profession, like seeing you run a necro, I will just go mesmer.

Shay.7534:

Good luck warriors!

They will need it.

XGhoul.7426:

bhagwad.4281:

Brassnautilus.2941:

i raise both hands to OP’s proposal

Valkyriez.6578:

As much as I like dueling, it simply wouldn’t work. Bunker v bunker would go forever and burst v burst would be done in an opener.

that’d be fine. draws award 0 points, bunkers can’t win.

Exactly. For those worried about bunker vs bunker, it’d work itself out since bunkers would be draws and no one gets points. So we’ll see more damage builds coming out. Or boon stripping builds.

Necros would be delighted to find a preponderance of guardians and eles will learn not to be so boon focused.

A 1v1 dueling system might be just what this game needs to encourage people to try new and innovative builds utilizing trait lines that were previously ignored.

This game can never work 1v1 since you can just buildwars the other profession, like seeing you run a necro, I will just go mesmer.

You won’t know what the profession is until you meet them in the arena. So you’ll be forced to run at least a somewhat balanced build. This system will be perfect for encouraging that.

You have a lot of good arguments to why a duelling feature should be implemented, I’m certainly not arguing against all of that.

Balancing is more ‘balanced’ if 1v1. But it does pull short for more supplementary builds of course.
Both have their merrits.

I still don’t agree on changing the CURRENT leaderboards to 1v1 results.

But I do agree on most of the other argument concering 1v1 in this game.

I kinda question the idea that the game is ‘more’ balanced in a group setting. Definitely can’t say it is balanced for 1v1s either. But does the balance actually improve when you introduce more people? I suppose bunkers become more than functional in a team setting, but what else?

Its not like there is many skills that only work in a team setting. Look at the balance for AoE skills, they are balanced such that they don’t become irrelevant in 1v1s either. Its the same with many support skills aside from res skills. Many team oriented skills are also the preferred skills for someone watching their home point, expecting mostly 1v1s.

Really one of the few things offered by having multiple players in the map is being able to pick and choose fights. So there are ways for a class that gets hard countered in some matches to be effective somewhere on the map. But what if things that inherently created hard counters weren’t a part of the game? Designed with no condition damage? Classes having integrated condition removal rather than it being optional?

Well – I agree that we should have a way to challenge each other to 1v1…as to balancing though, that is a whole different story. If you introduce 1v1 play into the game, you should be prepared for the hundreds of threads that will be crying out “Nerf X, Buff X”..I bet the biggest complainers will probably be the warriors – they are often at a disadvantage as it is in TPVP.

For example, when I roll in t/spvp, I have a rez on my hotbar, and/or a skill that strips conditions off my teammates, or heals them. I generally try to incorporate some team support. Because of that, I probably win the 1v1 battle a little less than I might if I had specced completely for 1v1. I actually enjoy being prepared for the occasional 2v1 it’s fun to me when I can manage to take out two people.

You say that having 1v1 encourages different builds – sort of. You would still, most likely, end up using a different build for team than you do when you know you’re only going to be fighting one person…

“Well, you see, you use different moves when you’re fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to be worried… about … one.” ~ Fezzik getting rocked by Westley

Overall, I agree that some form of 1v1 should be in the game – but as to it being ranked, It’s really hard to say because I don’t feel that classes are balanced enough for 1v1 at this time, and I also don’t see myself wanting to change the current mechanics as drastically as they’d need to be changed to “balance” the classes. I like the fact that each class brings a unique element to your team, and when you have UNIQUE, it’s also very hard to have good Balance.

Rift is a good example. Although the classes are unique – they all can do the same thing. They can all tank, heal, dps, or CC build. It sort of makes it so that it doesn’t really matter which class you play – you can do anything. It’s a completely different system than Guild Wars 2. I wouldn’t say it’s better – because I like the fact that in GW2 when you pick a class, you do things that no other class can do. You’re unique and different. To get GW2 to be like Rift as far as class abilities go, it would take a lot of changes.

Duels…just LOL

What’s next? Hotzerg board?

1 vs 1 will work if we got fully customizable AI controlled team mates

I think every class should be able to trait themselves to either 1v1 or team. From this perspective, it’s absolutely critical that GW2 is balanced around 1v1 in the sense that if a person wants to duel they should be able to present a good challenge to anyone else with the right skills and utilities.

Group fighting is already taken care of in the extreme in WvW. sPvP will tremendously benefit with dueling in terms of build diversity.

Arena system would be sik still teams like 3v3 and 5v5 deathmatches. Along with a CTF and a couple of other game types (mabie something like dota2/ LoL) would make for a great PvP game n never get boring.

As far as balance this game seems to be the most balanced mmorpg that i have played. a few tweaks here and there and its set aye.

Again…no reason to balance a TEAM based game around 1vs1, this is not metin2.

/topic

Archaon.6245:

Again…no reason to balance a TEAM based game around 1vs1, this is not metin2.

/topic

It’s your opinion that it’s a team based game. You can certainly play that way if you want. There’s no reason however for it not be a solo game either.

Like I said, you should be able to trait your class to be either solo or support as the situation demands.

bhagwad.4281:

Archaon.6245:

Again…no reason to balance a TEAM based game around 1vs1, this is not metin2.

/topic

It’s your opinion that it’s a team based game. You can certainly play that way if you want. There’s no reason however for it not be a solo game either.

Like I said, you should be able to trait your class to be either solo or support as the situation demands.

Oh well no…it’s not my opinion since you play in a team i suppose it’s a team based game, there’s nothing in this game really meant for solo playing, except, maybe, your pve personal (And it’s called PERSONAL for a reason) story…everything else is meant for cooperation…from pve to spvp to crap zerg vs zerg (Oh sorry..wvsw)

bhagwad.4281:

All the problems with the current rankings is because people are dependent on their teammates to win and yet rankings are individual based not team based – as indeed they should be without a more formal team system in place.

Real skill is displayed only during 1v1…

…stopped there because it’s ridiculous

all the problems with the current rankings are inside the head of the people who think there are problems.

i believe this ladder is for soloQ and as soon as there will be tournaments (the real ones, not the just so called ones) there will be a team-ladder for lets say only registered team-players. Or a separated Q and ladder or something like that.

people complaining about rating-loss in soloQ just don’t have the guts. you know – no guts, no glory…

duelling would be a nice feature to test set-up’s but nothing more. and keeping in mind that we are playing a game for team-play this should never ever ever be ranked. never.
ever.
- kitten imagine how that would be unfair…

PS: as long as there are people, people will QQ

How do you want to rank players that don’t like to play duels and want to play the other game modes because they think they are more fun? Are they just without rank then? How will the matches with radom players get balanced then?

I think it is okay to make a rating from one’s performance in a team match but you need a good formula.

Another game I played has something called “skill factor” which is just the experience per minute but somehow they managed it that very often the matches seem balanced if both teams have about the same average “skill factor”(or short: SF).

Here in Guild Wars 2 it could just be how many glory per minute or second or hour or whatever you made(but then boosters would need to be removed).

Question is only what the different actions should be worth. Capping points vs. killing. Someone rushing over the map insanely fast and killing every enemy of course is worth a lot because he kills really fast. But average players that only focus on kills should not be able to get a high ranking without also trying to capture points(and hold them.. maybe kills near a point you defend should count more because they help defending).

Don’t know how they are calculating the rank at the moment but would be interesting to know. They probably have some sort of system that takes other important stuff into account and don’t want players to play only with that in mind.

And btw…duels? Ok…i spec bunker with skills matched to counter your specific spec, now try to kill me 1vs1…….i give you all day…

yeah…duels…in a team + bunker based game…

So if player A beats player B 100 times out of 100 with the same class/gear/setup, but player B has 4 friends so he wins more matches and has a top 50 rank, who is the better player?

Sprawl.3891:

So if player A beats player B 100 times out of 100 with the same class/gear/setup, but player B has 4 friends so he wins more matches and has a top 50 rank, who is the better player?

So you want to match up 2 players with the same class\gear and so on pretending to find the better one…

Ok so let’s put a champ illusionist vs someone with the same rank who never played mesmer…see what happens…or do you want to match up only ppl who play the same class? How you can possibly find who is better if one plays bunker guard only and the other plays bunker ele only? Try to read what you’re posting before clicking reply plz….

Archaon.6245:

Sprawl.3891:

So if player A beats player B 100 times out of 100 with the same class/gear/setup, but player B has 4 friends so he wins more matches and has a top 50 rank, who is the better player?

So you want to match up 2 players with the same class\gear and so on pretending to find the better one…

Ok so let’s put a champ illusionist vs someone with the same rank who never played mesmer…see what happens…or do you want to match up only ppl who play the same class? How you can possibly find who is better if one plays bunker guard only and the other plays bunker ele only? Try to read what you’re posting before clicking reply plz….

i just asked a simple question. Just because you play on a team doesn’t mean you are better than someone who doesn’t. The whole leaderboard system is kitten it is an individual ranking system based on team games, it makes zero sense. If you are going to claim 1v1 ranking is stupid because this is a team game then there should be team ratings only.

Why are there other games like LoL where you play in teams of 5 people that have ranking not per team but per player? Does not every player there have some ranking?

Luthan.5236:

Why are there other games like LoL where you play in teams of 5 people that have ranking not per team but per player? Does not every player there have some ranking?

WoW does it right, you have a set team with a rating, but individuals have a personal rating, so say your 3v3 team consists of 5 people (2 alternates) If you play 10 games during the week but the other guys play 50 games, you will still have the same team rating as all 5 (assuming you meet the minimum number games played) but have a lower personal rating since you only played 10 games vs the others 50. The gear was then tied to personal rating so you couldn’t just carry a baddy to a high rating.

I think most people expected Anet to do something like this since it’s a team game, but they don’t seem to have the infrastructure for teams at all (i.e. team registration, team rating, etc.) so we probably will not see a proper team ladder for months if not longer.

Archaon.6245:

bhagwad.4281:

Archaon.6245:

Again…no reason to balance a TEAM based game around 1vs1, this is not metin2.

/topic

It’s your opinion that it’s a team based game. You can certainly play that way if you want. There’s no reason however for it not be a solo game either.

Like I said, you should be able to trait your class to be either solo or support as the situation demands.

Oh well no…it’s not my opinion since you play in a team i suppose it’s a team based game, there’s nothing in this game really meant for solo playing, except, maybe, your pve personal (And it’s called PERSONAL for a reason) story…everything else is meant for cooperation…from pve to spvp to crap zerg vs zerg (Oh sorry..wvsw)

But there’s no reason for it to be that way. There’s nothing inherent in the mechanics of PvP that requires teamwork to be viable. Dueling can easily be another mode. So again – just because the developers haven’t implemented a dueling mode yet doesn’t mean that ipso facto GW2 is a team based game.

It also isn’t uncommon for games with duels to introduce an aggression system. Once the timer ticks down the more aggressive player wins. So if your bringing a bunker build into a duel without the purpose of eventually getting a kill your just wasting your own time.

From the soloque perspective the game actually is not inherently team based. The game provides too little information about what is happening elsewhere for much teamwork to occur without voice com.

Now with a premade the game can be considered a team based game but how accessible to a normal player is a team? Honestly without prize tournaments and e-sports this will be the minority. Now I don’t think your team rating should be determined by duel performance. That is just silly. Ideally it should be a combined ‘team’ or ‘guild’ rating with solo and team queues being separate.

But for solos, dueling is probably the more accurate system. At least with the lack of UI giving players information of what is happening around allies. The ability just isn’t there to make correct choices and for a good player to have as large of an impact.

Kimbald.2697:

I still don’t agree on changing the CURRENT leaderboards to 1v1 results.

But I do agree on most of the other argument concering 1v1 in this game.

don’t need to. just make a separate board for 1v1 results
make a specific type of spvp game/map for dueling. only 2 people can enter arena at the same time, limited space, etc. The amount of efforts into making SAB and stuff, why can’t we have an arena?

so league of legends ladders don’t count?

world of warcraft ladders don’t count?

none of these, NONE us 1 vs 1 as balance metric.
What your calling for here just isn’t done.

daydream.2938:

What your calling for here just isn’t done.

Probably one of the most important reasons this should be done then!