Guild Wars 2

Title says it all. Pvpers in this game suffers from this kind of effect.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein relatively unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than is accurate. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their own ineptitude and evaluate their own ability accurately. Their research also suggests that conversely, highly skilled individuals may underestimate their relative competence, erroneously assuming that tasks which are easy for them also are easy for others.¹ The bias was first experimentally observed by David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University in 1999.

Dunning and Kruger have postulated that the effect is the result of internal illusion in the unskilled, and external misperception in the skilled: “The miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.”¹

TL;DR -
fail to recognize their own lack of skill
fail to recognize genuine skill in others
fail to recognize the extent of their inadequacy
recognize and acknowledge their own lack of skill, after they are exposed to training for that skill.

(It’s never my fault, my team is bad) <— This comment every game.

Obviously I don’t mean it word by word, sarcasm plays a big role here. But please, for those who are really bad – admit your loss and mistakes, stop covering up with lame kitten excuses that nobody will believe. If you want to improve, you need to have the right mindset and try every game. Going AFK will not help you.

Welcome to Guild Wars 2

AWACS.6537:

Welcome to Guild Wars 2

Thank you, I’m enjoying my stay. How about you?

On the serious note; Why are incompetent people suffering so much?

AWACS.6537:

Welcome to Guild Wars 2

I’d like to amend that to:

Welcome to Earth.

While the Dunning-Kruger effect is very much real, Anets matchmaking that will actively try to make you lose to keep your w/l rate at an even 50% is also very much real. Its quite understandable that this system gets under the skin of many people.

You should spell the title correctly.

This doesn’t mean that people who blame their team are never right.

Israel.7056:

This doesn’t mean that people who blame their team are never right.

That’s right. But more often than not people are pretty fast when it comes to blaming everyone but themselves.

The people who yap on in the most obnoxious way when you start losing a match are usually the bad players.

Shemie.4286:

AWACS.6537:

Welcome to Guild Wars 2

Thank you, I’m enjoying my stay. How about you?

On the serious note; Why are incompetent people suffering so much?

Why are incompetent people suffering so much? ANET refuses to add real matchmaking, ANET refuses to add a REAL REPORT BUTTON, and let’s say I win my 2v1 where I kill 2 people and my team loses a 4v3, then those incompetent “losers” DESERVE BLAME because there is no RESIGN BUTTON and you’re inclined to rage at people like that.

Those 3 main things are the main reasons why.

Fenju.2953:

Israel.7056:

This doesn’t mean that people who blame their team are never right.

That’s right. But more often than not people are pretty fast when it comes to blaming everyone but themselves.

This. People who always whine about their team should maybe reflect on themselves every now and then as well. I wonder what kind of poor self-esteem even leads people to go trash talk their team on the map chat. The way I always read it is “Hey guys! My team is bad! But I’m good! We didn’t lose because of me, I’m a good player! Please understand!!”.

Aktium.9506:

While the Dunning-Kruger effect is very much real, Anets matchmaking that will actively try to make you lose to keep your w/l rate at an even 50% is also very much real. Its quite understandable that this system gets under the skin of many people.

You got THAT right. The system needs to go. Let’s see what leagues bring to the table.

They don’t try to make you lose. They simply keep raising your rating til you get to the point where you’re playing against people better than you which causes you to lose and drop your rating.

uhohhotdog.3598:

They don’t try to make you lose. They simply keep raising your rating til you get to the point where you’re playing against people better than you which causes you to lose and drop your rating.

technically they don’t try to make you lose,just make it balanced. however you have to know that eventually there won’t be anyone “better” than you. the game compensates by putting 4 less skilled players than the 5 on the enemy team so its “balanced” and then you lose a good amount of games

So what about the wisdom of the crowd since your such a genius that knows everything? Generally the crowd knows more then even a very smart small group of people. I would definitely say the consensus is that there is a lot wrong with GW2 pvp at the moment. So while your average player might over estimate his own skill in aggregate they know when stuff is broken or unbalanced none the less. Are you another balance is perfectly fine person? A-net spat out an expansion with tons of new abilities and everything was balanced perfect right out of the box? If you are then you are easily dismissed as another I am pro you are a whiner type trying to clothe themselves in some kind of intellectual package. You sound like some college kid with zero real world experience. Back to the textbooks.

That’s why all the pro and the rest of the mass suddenly switched to DH, Scrappers, Heralds and Druids

Kolly.9872:

That’s why all the pro and the rest of the mass suddenly switched to DH, Scrappers, Heralds and Druids

I found one guys. ^

I definitely have this, there is no doubt in my mind.

It’s never my fault…I swear…

:(

Aktium.9506:

While the Dunning-Kruger effect is very much real, Anets matchmaking that will actively try to make you lose to keep your w/l rate at an even 50% is also very much real. Its quite understandable that this system gets under the skin of many people.

Lol I’m not even going to lie, my unranked W/L is 50.7%, I personally know I perform well a majority of the time, but as mentioned, the individual doesn’t matter and ultimately I find myself taking a large chunk of the responsibility for a loss. Perhaps I should’ve decapped more, perhaps I should not have spent 2 minutes fighting that warrior or guardian. Even if you are at the top of the scoreboards, there is still someway you could’ve done better whether it mattered in the end or not.

Kolly.9872:

That’s why all the pro and the rest of the mass suddenly switched to DH, Scrappers, Heralds and Druids

this pretty much

Shemie.4286:

Title says it all. Pvpers in this game suffers from this kind of effect.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein relatively unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than is accurate. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their own ineptitude and evaluate their own ability accurately. Their research also suggests that conversely, highly skilled individuals may underestimate their relative competence, erroneously assuming that tasks which are easy for them also are easy for others.¹ The bias was first experimentally observed by David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University in 1999.

Dunning and Kruger have postulated that the effect is the result of internal illusion in the unskilled, and external misperception in the skilled: “The miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.”¹

TL;DR -
fail to recognize their own lack of skill
fail to recognize genuine skill in others
fail to recognize the extent of their inadequacy
recognize and acknowledge their own lack of skill, after they are exposed to training for that skill.

(It’s never my fault, my team is bad) <— This comment every game.

everyone seems to be associating this with pvp losing ragers but this also applies to those who play broken metas or exploits and consider it skill .

Rezzet.3614:

everyone seems to be associating this with pvp losing ragers but this also applies to those who play broken metas or exploits and consider it skill .

No, not really.
Your comment is like whinning of guy running in sandals during Olympic in marathon and top3 is bad and don’t deserve golden/silver/bronze medal, because they don’t have skill just have better shoes…

Every time I see a thread demanding solo q come back because of premades all I can think about is how the REAL esport games DO NOT have a solo q in them.

Solo Q demands are exactly the effect of what OP is talking about. People need to realize that the matching algorithm will match you against tougher and tougher opponents if you keep winning to try and force a 50% win rate LIKE ALL REAL ESPORT TITLES DO AS WELL.

Not sure what it is about GW2 that people think they are special snowflakes in everything but it really needs to stop.

The biggest illusion of skill is winning fights in which you outnumber the enemies.

If you’re trying to measure the value of your rotations & actions, you’re only ever creating value by outnumbering the enemy if you get kills fast and are able to quickly impact other fights.

Rules to make live by in order to create value:

• If other options are present, refuse to enter a fight that involves outnumbering defensively built enemies.

• Especially don’t be that person to enter an existing 1v1 fight as a “+1” if your build is built defensively, unless it’s to switch with your teammate. The enemy will not die much faster, and your ability to soak damage isn’t being used when you’re outnumbering.

• Filter out of a fight as you get kills so situations where you’re outnumbering the enemies by more than one player will never happen.

Lots of players have never even been vaguely aware of the basic rules of rotating, the game doesn’t introduce them at all. So it’s not really a surprise to me that this Dunning–Kruger effect is especially common in GW2

talk about having an unearned sense of superiority.

Chaith.8256:

The biggest illusion of skill is winning fights in which you outnumber the enemies.

If you’re trying to measure the value of your rotations & actions, you’re only ever creating value by outnumbering the enemy if you get kills fast and are able to quickly impact other fights.

Rules to make live by in order to create value:

• If other options are present, refuse to enter a fight that involves outnumbering defensively built enemies.

• Especially don’t be that person to enter an existing 1v1 fight as a “+1” if your build is built defensively, unless it’s to switch with your teammate. The enemy will not die much faster, and your ability to soak damage isn’t being used when you’re outnumbering.

• Filter out of a fight as you get kills so situations where you’re outnumbering the enemies by more than one player will never happen.

Lots of players have never even been vaguely aware of the basic rules of rotating, the game doesn’t introduce them at all. So it’s not really a surprise to me that this Dunning–Kruger effect is especially common in GW2

^ This.

displacedTitan.6897:

Every time I see a thread demanding solo q come back because of premades all I can think about is how the REAL esport games DO NOT have a solo q in them.

Solo Q demands are exactly the effect of what OP is talking about. People need to realize that the matching algorithm will match you against tougher and tougher opponents if you keep winning to try and force a 50% win rate LIKE ALL REAL ESPORT TITLES DO AS WELL.

Not sure what it is about GW2 that people think they are special snowflakes in everything but it really needs to stop.

I don’t know if you realize it but you’ve presented what I consider to be one of the best arguments FOR the return of solo queue.

displacedTitan.6897:

Every time I see a thread demanding solo q come back because of premades all I can think about is how the REAL esport games DO NOT have a solo q in them.

Solo Q demands are exactly the effect of what OP is talking about. People need to realize that the matching algorithm will match you against tougher and tougher opponents if you keep winning to try and force a 50% win rate LIKE ALL REAL ESPORT TITLES DO AS WELL.

Not sure what it is about GW2 that people think they are special snowflakes in everything but it really needs to stop.

So LoL isn’t eSportz? GeGe no re.

Shemie.4286:

wall of text written after reading wikipedia

I assume you are one of the good players, right? One that is so good that he doesn’t have to listen to all The stoopid baddies.

I’ll take players better at rotating, than players that have better skill.

The only skill I judge is when players stick around fighting a 2v1 at home point and continue to fight until the single enemy player is dead or leaves.

Learn to 1v1 scrubs, let your teammate win his battle or weaken the enemy player enough for you to safely leave. If your ally is at 100% and the enemy player heal is on cooldown your job is done. Go mid or go scout.

Also, pointless thread is pointless. I assume you never played Dota, Counterstrike, League of Legends or any Esport game.
(Guild Wars 2 is not Esports)

Actually in LoL you can now queue with four people in RANKED , if they can figure it out in a highly competitive game such as that , i don’t see why you all complain about it in GW2

Burned.9520:

Actually in LoL you can now queue with four people in RANKED , if they can figure it out in a highly competitive game such as that , i don’t see why you all complain about it in GW2

Anyone can confirm?
Last time played LoL 3 years ago and back then only duo was allowed in Ranked (non-Team) que.

Don’t know why you didn’t bother to look it up your self or you assumed i was lying but here it is nevertheless

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/site/2016-season-update/ranked-improvements.html

Burned.9520:

Don’t know why you didn’t bother to look it up your self or you assumed i was lying but here it is nevertheless

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/site/2016-season-update/ranked-improvements.html

You’re right, thanks… but according to Riot “so if you’re in a premade five, there’s a 95% chance you’ll run into another premade five”, while in GW2 there is not enough premades so they stomp non-premades all day long.

The funny thing is you can see this in some high profile streamers pretty consistently. The best PvP players tend to be incredibly hostile and blameful when they mess up.

It’s one of the reasons for my man-crush on ROM, he is IMO the best PvPer in the world and yet almost inexplicably remains humble. Phanta is another good example. It’s little wonder those are the 2 best teams in the world.

Also next time you have an interview, mention this phenomena, I landed a pretty high-end job once when they asked me if I was “good” at a particular skill.

That’s a population problem that Anet has to place as a high priority , their numbers tell them that a lot of people are playing pvp but what i assume doesn’t tell them is how long do these players stick around for.

Balance patches must come quicker , MM issues must be resolved once and for all , these are core issues that make people simply don’t bother with spvp , solve these problems and premades become a non issue.

Burned.9520:

That’s a population problem that Anet has to place as a high priority , their numbers tell them that a lot of people are playing pvp but what i assume doesn’t tell them is how long do these players stick around for.

Balance patches must come quicker , MM issues must be resolved once and for all , these are core issues that make people simply don’t bother with spvp , solve these problems and premades become a non issue.

There always will be population problem, because GW2 never will have as many PvP players in Ranked as F2P games, just because they are F2P.

Wait can’t f2p people participate in PVP?

Burned.9520:

Wait can’t f2p people participate in PVP?

They can participate, but they can’t compete.
You can obviously prove me wrong, make F2P account and get into top10 in next Ranked season… soloQ.

Let’s be fair, mor. No SoloQer will make it top 10, elite spec or not.

“Dunning-Kruger-Effect” is the next “Everybody in GW2 sucks.”

SlayerSixx.5763:

Let’s be fair, mor. No SoloQer will make it top 10, elite spec or not.

I believe it could be possible by playing at horrible hours when people can’t find enough team mates to que with…

When I wanted to be top10 in Battleforge and I couldn’t beat DragonDampfi I always qued when he was offline, true story…

Dunning-Kruger happens on every game.
Who never went by the “Noob or Hacker” syndrome on other games?

At least on GW2 you can blame the “invisible user” that we call team (laughs).

Not like it matters in the end. Everyone will have 50% win rate unless you made a 4~5-man premade.

Morwath.9817:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Let’s be fair, mor. No SoloQer will make it top 10, elite spec or not.

I believe it could be possible by playing at horrible hours when people can’t find enough team mates to que with…

When I wanted to be top10 in Battleforge and I couldn’t beat DragonDampfi I always qued when he was offline, true story…

So you’d intentionally stay up and ruin whatever schedule you have for your daily responsibilities to hit that rank? I suppose you deserve it in that case :P.

Nova Stiker.8396:

I’ll take players better at rotating, than players that have better skill.

The only skill I judge is when players stick around fighting a 2v1 at home point and continue to fight until the single enemy player is dead or leaves.

Learn to 1v1 scrubs, let your teammate win his battle or weaken the enemy player enough for you to safely leave. If your ally is at 100% and the enemy player heal is on cooldown your job is done. Go mid or go scout.

Also, pointless thread is pointless. I assume you never played Dota, Counterstrike, League of Legends or any Esport game.
(Guild Wars 2 is not Esports)

Dumb person will always be dumb. “I don’t like and/or agree to what you post/say, therefor it’s pointless.” get out.

This thread will be useles if you find it useles, I made this post with sarcasm in mind, to make people who aren’t suffering from this syndrome, but rather bad at the game – to wake up and improve their game other than blaming their mates for every single loss, without looking at their own mistakes. The people who complain will never reach high in the ladders through soloq’ing, cause they’re bad.

As for you comment and asked if I have played LoL or CSGO, yes I have. I played LoL since early beta and quit right after S2. However in CSGO, I’m playing on a platform called Faceit, in master league atm and tryin to get a qualified spot for FPL, own league/ladder where you will meet other professional players to win 20k/month (Obviously I just want to meet and play against them, I don’t expect to win)

I never stated GW2 is E-sport either. I fully agree that it will never become E-sport, and it will never be succesful like CSGO or LoL in terms of playerbase or gameplay-wise.

MarauderShields.6830:

Shemie.4286:

wall of text written after reading wikipedia

I assume you are one of the good players, right? One that is so good that he doesn’t have to listen to all The stoopid baddies.

Then you assume correctly. I’m pretty sure I’m not very bad, but decent enough to climb high in ladders when it comes to competitive play (I’ve always been competitive) and manage to climb high enough in LoL and CSGO to take that experience and climb high enough, above all the kids that keeps on whining and bandwagon on classes, then winning and thinking they’re good – not because of their skill, but the class itself. Of course this is limited in terms of how you’re going to win a match, since getting points by capping is the way to win, and not fights.

And for the people who keeps going AFK and saying "I’d win this match alone if I wanted to, so hf with losses folks. Give up, you’re going to remain in amber and not get a single pip.

Can people have more autism than this forum? Why is it that everytime you disagree, you always attack the person? If you can’t discuss, get out, if you can’t behave like an adult, also get out. Attack his or her statements, not the person h*mself. Just my two cents to keep this thread alive and hopefully people will get better

See you on the field, fellow PvPers!

brannigan.9831:

So what about the wisdom of the crowd since your such a genius that knows everything? Generally the crowd knows more then even a very smart small group of people. I would definitely say the consensus is that there is a lot wrong with GW2 pvp at the moment. So while your average player might over estimate his own skill in aggregate they know when stuff is broken or unbalanced none the less. Are you another balance is perfectly fine person? A-net spat out an expansion with tons of new abilities and everything was balanced perfect right out of the box? If you are then you are easily dismissed as another I am pro you are a whiner type trying to clothe themselves in some kind of intellectual package. You sound like some college kid with zero real world experience. Back to the textbooks.

While the post does read like he literally just took a Psych 101 class and had an epiphany you are misconstruing both what the OP is saying (who has made several whine posts about imbalance) and the “wisdom of crowds.” Crowds are stupid and the people on this forum are generally ill-informed.

The wisdom doesn’t lie with the vocal people on this forum but with the decisions players are making. Players are shifting towards some specs and away from others – that is where the wisdom lies.

Schurge.5194:

brannigan.9831:

So what about the wisdom of the crowd since your such a genius that knows everything? Generally the crowd knows more then even a very smart small group of people. I would definitely say the consensus is that there is a lot wrong with GW2 pvp at the moment. So while your average player might over estimate his own skill in aggregate they know when stuff is broken or unbalanced none the less. Are you another balance is perfectly fine person? A-net spat out an expansion with tons of new abilities and everything was balanced perfect right out of the box? If you are then you are easily dismissed as another I am pro you are a whiner type trying to clothe themselves in some kind of intellectual package. You sound like some college kid with zero real world experience. Back to the textbooks.

While the post does read like he literally just took a Psych 101 class and had an epiphany you are misconstruing both what the OP is saying (who has made several whine posts about imbalance) and the “wisdom of crowds.” Crowds are stupid and the people on this forum are generally ill-informed.

The wisdom doesn’t lie with the vocal people on this forum but with the decisions players are making. Players are shifting towards some specs and away from others – that is where the wisdom lies.

What you’re saying, is that making me look bad or good?

Anyhow, yes. I’ve made a big thread about dragonhunter imbalance, and it got pretty out of hand pretty quickly. But I feel like, people like you can actually stay on the forums and make logical sense. This brannigan.9831 guy, I cba to waste my time and counter-attack him, simply too much effort when I know he’s wrong about me anyways. I’m not proving anybody wrong, they are to believe what they believe. I just find it amazing that you implied he was wrong about my “message” with this thread.

There is no skill involved in this game,

Welp, this means I’m not alone when I say I’m utter garbage and still somehow win matches >.> Am sure that I got carried tbh. Also, what about when we play Thief/Warrior (I’m sure Warrior will be a bit better off soon, but its much better than Thief =/ unfortunately)? >.> How do we fit in then knowing that we can beat someone for swapping classes? And then doing it?

I perceive I am better, prove I am better, therefore I am better? Yes? Honest question, you have me curious.

Serious Thought.5394:

Welp, this means I’m not alone when I say I’m utter garbage and still somehow win matches >.> Am sure that I got carried tbh. Also, what about when we play Thief/Warrior (I’m sure Warrior will be a bit better off soon, but its much better than Thief =/ unfortunately)? >.> How do we fit in then knowing that we can beat someone for swapping classes? And then doing it?

I perceive I am better, prove I am better, therefore I am better? Yes? Honest question, you have me curious.

Glad that you’re one of the few that is willing to improve rather whining. What I usually tell myself; “You’re good when you see your weakness and work on it” <— Never ending cycle that you won’t stop being hungry to work on you weakness, which basically means you’ll never be good enough. Always something else you can improve on.

About the warrior and thief thingy, it’s more like how you adapt to the game. Of course you would probably do better by playing a Rev, than a warrior. But don’t look out of the answer, you can perform good and carry with a warrior. It’s more in the decision of how you want to pursue your weakness, in order to win (This doesn’t count bandwagon).

If you do prove yourself that you can defeat your enemy if you’d be playing another profession, it shows the part imbalance in this game. But don’t take it for granted, now you know that you can improve the “weaker” profession, cause you’d probably win with another profession. Just don’t go around and tell people you’re good cus of x class, that kind of bandwagon is horrible. Good people usually stay quiet, and the bad tend to speak up:D:D. It also applies for the cheaters. If you’re legit, why even bother proving your innocence when all they do is keep on whining? (Of course theres a limit)