Guild Wars 2

Dear bronze-gold players claiming they’re stuck in elo hell;

I’m starting this thread with the mindset that I want to have a civil discussion between us winners and the elo hell complainers.

I, kittykittymeowmew, landed in bronze at a rating of 612.

I’m now in platinum in less than 100 games with a record of 76-12 (soloq only) not including my placement scores.

I have three questions for you:

1) Is it possible to carry games
2) is it possible to climb out of gold reliably if you’re consistently the best player on both teams
3) why wont you guys just get good instead of spending your time whining here? Maybe you would have climbed out of gold if you did.

Anyway, let’s have a fruitful discussion until the mod slams my thread away

with love,

kittykittymeowmew

reported for toxicity.

Bet you can’t carry Platinum

ITT: People making excuses for not being able to climb, blaming their teammates instead of trying to get better

Hey dear nothelseth,
No it’s not possible to carry games unless you would be thehelseth.
No, you will always get bad teams. Once you place in bronze you won’t get out.
No, i prefer whining on forums

Sincerely, FeintFate

git gud

When I read this I thought it was written by helseth. Then I realized that simply can’t be true, cause his name is nothelseth

1) yes
2) yes
3) i don’t think the problem is about getting good. but looking at it from a “normal” perspective maybe ESL players can do this but not the 99% of the other population.

for these 99% the so called elo hell will always exist. because if the average plat player queues with his friend who is like lower gold i highly doubt its possible he can solo carry like you or any other ESL player could while they would do totally fine in their own division.

no the lselth? what does that even mean?

You’re mean please take it back helseth

If climbing out of ELO hell is so easy – why isn’t DFTC modded yet?

atmos.9150:

1) yes
2) yes
3) i don’t think the problem is about getting good. but looking at it from a “normal” perspective maybe ESL players can do this but not the 99% of the other population.

for these 99% the so called elo hell will always exist. because if the average plat player queues with his friend who is like lower gold i highly doubt its possible he can solo carry like you or any other ESL player could while they would do totally fine in their own division.

The idea of ELO hell is not about losing games because of misplays by your allies. It’s about being unable to climb out of somewhere that you feel you’ve been “misplaced” in.

The two are often associated with each other, but they are not the same thing.

Kittykittymeowmew, aren’t you the guy who died to a thief 1v1 in 2 seconds in gold?

He said he will do it…he did it….I wonder what now people will say about his platinum climb.

I was placed at 1039, bronze 1, and now I’m 1.7k in plat. ELO hell doesn’t exist and I proved that to myself. I’m stuck around 1700-1750 and that’s because I need to learn to play better, not because of matchmaking. I fully support nothelseth in his statement.

Regards,
Bishda

But but ofcorse he climbed, he is a ESL pro-player after all.

Average best players that belong to plat-legend that landed in silver cannot do that!

(kappa intensifies)

Diederick.7906:

When I read this I thought it was written by helseth. Then I realized that simply can’t be true, cause his name is nothelseth

#DefinitelyNotHelseth

Konakona.4130:

But but ofcorse he climbed, he is a ESL pro-player after all.

In case it wasn’t clear enough, this is not helseth

He isn’t a pro player, his name is nothelseth. Obviously a different person.
He’s also right, ELO hell doesn’t exist. Yes you will get some bad games. But if you can’t get out of the division then you’re in the right one.

nothelseth.4621:

Dear bronze-gold players claiming they’re stuck in elo hell;

I’m starting this thread with the mindset that I want to have a civil discussion between us winners and the elo hell complainers.

I, kittykittymeowmew, landed in bronze at a rating of 612.

I’m now in platinum in less than 100 games with a record of 76-12 (soloq only) not including my placement scores.

I have three questions for you:

1) Is it possible to carry games
2) is it possible to climb out of gold reliably if you’re consistently the best player on both teams
3) why wont you guys just get good instead of spending your time whining here? Maybe you would have climbed out of gold if you did.

Anyway, let’s have a fruitful discussion until the mod slams my thread away

with love,

kittykittymeowmew

1) carry not possible unless the enemy team is worse than yours; if there are any average/growing players on the other team, good luck. “carry” as an absolute principle is laughable.

2) a)possible to grind your way out of any level. b)doubt anyone will consistently be the best player on any 1 team, but both of them? statistically so remote probably not even possible. what sort of narcissist even considers this?

3) a)most are working on getting better all the time, they want to compete and understand that time spent/practice is the only way to get there. b)there’s far too much whining on forums, can’t dispute that. c)ad hominem is never convincing, if you are about self promotion and proving your have an inflated self esteem and possibly have other issues, you have succeeded and surpassed any expectations the community could have set for you.

4) taking advantage of beginners at low levels proves nothing meaningful with respect to your skill level. all it communicates is that you can exploit the system and inexperienced players.

best wishes to you as well, and good luck with all that.

He started on a noob account which is almost like cheating. All you have to do is start a new account and you’ll know what I mean. You have a huge advantage in the early going on a brand new account if your an experienced player. I don’t know how to expalin it exactly but it seems like you get put on the team that is favored to win much more often then not. Take an account with 1,000 games on it. Get to lowest bronze possible and then after getting to the bottom lose about 20 games in a row. And then climb out of that. Then I’ll give you credit. This system adjusts to what your doing quickly in terms of wins and loss streaks you have to get the system to really accept you as a bronze level player and to do that you’ll have to get to the bottom and lose a lot there. Not get there and then win 10 straight.

steelheart.7386:

He started on a noob account which is almost like cheating. All you have to do is start a new account and you’ll know what I mean. You have a huge advantage in the early going on a brand new account if your an experienced player. I don’t know how to expalin it exactly but it seems like you get put on the team that is favored to win much more often then not. Take an account with 1,000 games on it. Get to lowest bronze possible and then after getting to the bottom lose about 20 games in a row. And then climb out of that. Then I’ll give you credit. This system adjusts to what your doing quickly in terms of wins and loss streaks you have to get the system to really accept you as a bronze level player and to do that you’ll have to get to the bottom and lose a lot there. Not get there and then win 10 straight.

He literally went to 612 rating, in the lowest tier of bronze on purpose, and then soloQ’ed his way to Platinum. I don’t understand what about that you don’t comprehend. He was placed with some of the worst players and carried them to wins. He proved that even with kittenty players, if you’re a good enough player you can carry your pleb teammates to wins and end up in higher tiers.

NotLikeThis

nothelseth.4621:

I’m now in platinum in less than 100 games with a record of 76-12 (soloq only) not including my placement scores.

The real Helseth is a humble man. No way he would brag about beating Bronze players.

On a side note, you lost 12 games. #ESLfail

This is the most idiotic thing. A guy who plays games for a living claims because he can beat most players everyone can. I won’t even get into why this is stupid, you should be bale to figure it out yourselves.

let’s put messi and ronaldo into lower tiers while they can decide champions league by themselves…

i never got the point in the first place

atmos.9150:

let’s put messi and ronaldo into lower tiers while they can decide champions league by themselves…

i never got the point in the first place

The point was that supposed “great players” were complaining of getting placed with terrible teammates and losing their games constantly, preventing them from reaching their “true division”. He’s simply proving that is not true.

nothelseth.4621:

Dear bronze-gold players claiming they’re stuck in elo hell;

I’m starting this thread with the mindset that I want to have a civil discussion between us winners and the elo hell complainers.

I, kittykittymeowmew, landed in bronze at a rating of 612.

I’m now in platinum in less than 100 games with a record of 76-12 (soloq only) not including my placement scores.

I have three questions for you:

1) Is it possible to carry games
2) is it possible to climb out of gold reliably if you’re consistently the best player on both teams
3) why wont you guys just get good instead of spending your time whining here? Maybe you would have climbed out of gold if you did.

Anyway, let’s have a fruitful discussion until the mod slams my thread away

with love,

kittykittymeowmew

I am a casual pvp player. I’ve been stuck in T3 Silver. I placed into T1 Silver and had nothing but wins until i got within 1 game of T1 Gold. I’ve been within 1 game of gold probably 4 or 5 times now and each time i get to the gold threashold, i get teammates trying to triple cap home and running far right after clearing mid getting get rekt by respawn…

I have no problem carrying my own weight. But I can’t carry more than 1 or 2 pvptards in a match…

1) Is it possible to carry games – Of course. It becomes a question of how many teammates you have to pick up the slack for. I can’t carry 4 pvptards.

2) is it possible to climb out of gold reliably if you’re consistently the best player on both teams – Mileage may vary on this one. For me personally, i’m not consistently the best player on both teams. But that shouldn’t be the standard for climbing ranks.

3) why wont you guys just get good instead of spending your time whining here? I don’t whine much. I tend to get in “trouble” for responding to whiner threads. My best posts are no longer available for viewing…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/MMR-hell-is-a-lie/first#post6195984

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Nerf-All-Classes-I-Don-t-Play/first#post6319772

TheDevinM.8053:

steelheart.7386:

He started on a noob account which is almost like cheating. All you have to do is start a new account and you’ll know what I mean. You have a huge advantage in the early going on a brand new account if your an experienced player. I don’t know how to expalin it exactly but it seems like you get put on the team that is favored to win much more often then not. Take an account with 1,000 games on it. Get to lowest bronze possible and then after getting to the bottom lose about 20 games in a row. And then climb out of that. Then I’ll give you credit. This system adjusts to what your doing quickly in terms of wins and loss streaks you have to get the system to really accept you as a bronze level player and to do that you’ll have to get to the bottom and lose a lot there. Not get there and then win 10 straight.

He literally went to 612 rating, in the lowest tier of bronze on purpose, and then soloQ’ed his way to Platinum. I don’t understand what about that you don’t comprehend. He was placed with some of the worst players and carried them to wins. He proved that even with kittenty players, if you’re a good enough player you can carry your pleb teammates to wins and end up in higher tiers.

NotLikeThis

do you even realize what you said? “placed with some of the worst players…” – taking advantage of inexperienced players and exploiting the MMR system of a alt account doesn’t say anything more than “i took advantage of new/inexperienced players.” it is not a real commentary on either your so called skill level or the efficiency of the MMR system because it only reveals a small portion of the overall context of both.
furthermore, if there are any decent, average, or growing players on the enemy team (let’s say 2 on enemy team) and your team is still that bad, you cannot carry that no matter how good you think you are – the law of averages will bite you in the butt every time.
why do people discount the experiences of others? sometimes the MMR is not going to work perfectly (not to mention how match manipulation can play a genuine role)- some will be artificially promoted (carried ) and some will be artificially suppressed (mmr gehenna).

steelheart.7386:

He started on a noob account which is almost like cheating. All you have to do is start a new account and you’ll know what I mean. You have a huge advantage in the early going on a brand new account if your an experienced player. I don’t know how to expalin it exactly but it seems like you get put on the team that is favored to win much more often then not. Take an account with 1,000 games on it. Get to lowest bronze possible and then after getting to the bottom lose about 20 games in a row. And then climb out of that. Then I’ll give you credit. This system adjusts to what your doing quickly in terms of wins and loss streaks you have to get the system to really accept you as a bronze level player and to do that you’ll have to get to the bottom and lose a lot there. Not get there and then win 10 straight.

I was pretty much gonna write about how SLOWLY, not quickly, the system adjusts.

Hes practically on a 80 game 1000elo winstreak, yet hes gaining 14 elo per win, as if the system is pretty sure he was at his correct rating already.

Flumek.9043:

steelheart.7386:

He started on a noob account which is almost like cheating. All you have to do is start a new account and you’ll know what I mean. You have a huge advantage in the early going on a brand new account if your an experienced player. I don’t know how to expalin it exactly but it seems like you get put on the team that is favored to win much more often then not. Take an account with 1,000 games on it. Get to lowest bronze possible and then after getting to the bottom lose about 20 games in a row. And then climb out of that. Then I’ll give you credit. This system adjusts to what your doing quickly in terms of wins and loss streaks you have to get the system to really accept you as a bronze level player and to do that you’ll have to get to the bottom and lose a lot there. Not get there and then win 10 straight.

I was pretty much gonna write about how SLOWLY, not quickly, the system adjusts.

Hes practically on a 80 game 1000elo winstreak, yet hes gaining 14 elo per win, as if the system is pretty sure he was at his correct rating already.

He must have done REALLY badly during those placement games. The MMR system doesn’t forget. Hmm… How to Kappa here…

But yeah, I think the “certainty” of the MMR system should adjust itself. I think it’s fairly linear just going from uncertain → certain.

Why are people complaining? This individual just wanted to start a conversation about the rating system.

I think they are asking a fair question if the comment they made is factual, i mean its not like this kitty kitty noob might be the best player in the game. Come on lets get him forum!!!!!

TheDevinM.8053:

atmos.9150:

let’s put messi and ronaldo into lower tiers while they can decide champions league by themselves…

i never got the point in the first place

The point was that supposed “great players” were complaining of getting placed with terrible teammates and losing their games constantly, preventing them from reaching their “true division”. He’s simply proving that is not true.

I know he said on stream that he got sick of al lthese omg i belong to a better division kind of players that they can carry if they are the supergods they think they are.

but people who don’t know it won’t get the reference.

the whole thing is still very vague. on a main i got placed into silver and didnt get out after 60 games. does it mean im bad? i’m not sure i went to an alt and got placed in 1800 and staying there +/- 50 rating.

so there chance always is there that its simply not possible to carry games while you can still do your part in upper divisions without being the messi / ronaldo but being a solid teammate.

Good job helseth, but the arguement was that it takes forever to move up tiers, which you have just proven. good job wasting all that time though…?

Highlie.7641:

Good job helseth, but the arguement was that it takes forever to move up tiers, which you have just proven. good job wasting all that time though…?

From T1 bronze to T1 platinum in less than 100 games. How does that take forever?

Must be difficult carrying games as a block/invul/evade/condi spam mesmer. /s

There’s been almost no mention of ELO hell on the forums this season. Except by Helseth and his twitch fantasy show of course.

Maybe you should get good at reading trends. ElO Hell Controversy (ELOHC) was SO 2016.

Dear kity meow meow,

thank you for the effort and quality content.
I want to add my and my friends observations (im T3 plat, friends vary from plat to gold).

a) Can a plat , rise out of gold , in a reasonable ammount of games before losing interest?
Youre playing extremely well. Lets just add 10 losses, 76-12 (86%) becomes a reasonable 66-22 (75% winrate). Instead of +10x14elo , player Xpleb is now 280 elo point lower than kitykitymeow.
Pretty much a whole division, and slower climb, more wtf moments, more beasts, more frustration…you get the point

b) Can every class carry themselves out?
Ill be specific even – necro, ele, thief.
Necro+Ele is obvious, theyre teamfighters, yet both cant exactly score fast, and they can often randomly die or another of youre teammates just dies too fast.
For thief Its similiar POV, a top100 thief that isnt sinderner, may still take too long to finish any of the “marauder bunkers” HOT introduced. Hes not playing bad, but the bigger match impact lies on how long the randoms live.

c) Offtime hours.
Id say this is biggest source of frustration.
Primetime you get “plebX” + 9 bronze or 9 silver, gold etc..
In offtime, you get the whole rainbow together. So a bigger match value and deciding factor is not how legendary vs legendary 1-2min duel will end – but rather who gets 3 and who gets 1 bronze
This point includes self inflicted variables such as drunk nights, its meant to criticize variance.

d) Did you have fun?
Lets say you were a missplaced average platinum pleb, and youve now reached your fitting division.
How was your yourney? How much was good and how much bad? Do you want to play more? What motivated you: challenge of tougher enemys, gold rewards, pure ladder bragging rights..???
A stupid casual point, but its theese type of masses that drive everything, try thinking objectively what was good and bad and how to improve it (ex. move 99% of gold rewards to legendary tier )

P.S.
These are critique/points for thought and discussion, not personal whines.

nothelseth.4621:

why wont you guys just get good instead of spending your time whining here?

Anyway, let’s have a fruitful discussion

Always a great way to start one.

Sariel V.7024:

nothelseth.4621:

why wont you guys just get good instead of spending your time whining here?

Anyway, let’s have a fruitful discussion

Always a great way to start one.

This is a kind of self defeating line to include. If it weren’t there id bother to make a response.

Flumek.9043:

Dear kity meow meow,

thank you for the effort and quality content.
I want to add my and my friends observations (im T3 plat, friends vary from plat to gold).

a) Can a plat , rise out of gold , in a reasonable ammount of games before losing interest?
Youre playing extremely well. Lets just add 10 losses, 76-12 (86%) becomes a reasonable 66-22 (75% winrate). Instead of +10x14elo , player Xpleb is now 280 elo point lower than kitykitymeow.
Pretty much a whole division, and slower climb, more wtf moments, more beasts, more frustration…you get the point

b) Can every class carry themselves out?
Ill be specific even – necro, ele, thief.
Necro+Ele is obvious, theyre teamfighters, yet both cant exactly score fast, and they can often randomly die or another of youre teammates just dies too fast.
For thief Its similiar POV, a top100 thief that isnt sinderner, may still take too long to finish any of the “marauder bunkers” HOT introduced. Hes not playing bad, but the bigger match impact lies on how long the randoms live.

c) Offtime hours.
Id say this is biggest source of frustration.
Primetime you get “plebX” + 9 bronze or 9 silver, gold etc..
In offtime, you get the whole rainbow together. So a bigger match value and deciding factor is not how legendary vs legendary 1-2min duel will end – but rather who gets 3 and who gets 1 bronze
This point includes self inflicted variables such as drunk nights, its meant to criticize variance.

d) Did you have fun?
Lets say you were a missplaced average platinum pleb, and youve now reached your fitting division.
How was your yourney? How much was good and how much bad? Do you want to play more? What motivated you: challenge of tougher enemys, gold rewards, pure ladder bragging rights..???
A stupid casual point, but its theese type of masses that drive everything, try thinking objectively what was good and bad and how to improve it (ex. move 99% of gold rewards to legendary tier )

P.S.
These are critique/points for thought and discussion, not personal whines.

I think this type of post is good so basically +1 from me.

Also my personal thoughts. I’m currently “stuck” in gold, so I’m probably about where I should be. I do think I can climb a bit more, maybe 1-2 tiers, just going to be a lot slower. I was initially misplaced at the bottom of silver, and I knew it. My motivation to play was to prove myself right, and saw a steady climb. I enjoyed the easy wins when they happened, accepted the rare “bad beats” (growing a bit more common).

The system can definitely be tuned/ adjusted, but I honestly think it’s doing its job for the most part. A lot of it is just about how personal approach to wins and losses.

Speaking as someone playing primarily Necro/Warrior/Ranger Player, whose current goal is to get into Platinum T1.

Glicko works well for the extrema. The absolute top players go straight to the top and the absolute worst players go straight to the bottom.

The players in the middle however are in for one heck of a MMR rollercoaster

Also I’d like to point out that
1) Elo is not glicko, and no you can’t use the terms interchangeably.
2) It’s “Elo” not “ELO” it’s not a acronym, Elo was the name of the dude that invented it.
Unless you’re talking about Electric Light Orchestra which is abbreviated ELO.

Still dunno why he went condi mes.

“Pro player picks best possible build to carry with and does well.”

Almost click-bait tbh.

Crinn.7864:

Also I’d like to point out that
1) Elo is not glicko, and no you can’t use the terms interchangeably.
2) It’s “Elo” not “ELO” it’s not a acronym, Elo was the name of the dude that invented it.
Unless you’re talking about Electric Light Orchestra which is abbreviated ELO.

As no one has really ever explained ELO vs. Glicko, I am one of those that was not really sure what the exact difference between the two is.

From wiki-ing the two I gather that Elo is basically a system for determining rating gained based on rating difference in a match. Glicko builds on top of that with Rating Deviation, which presents a range of that players skill. Over time after playing more games, the Rating Deviation decreases, while after a period of inactivity, rating deviation slowly builds up again. Supposedly Glicko-2 further builds on this with the introduction of rating volatility, which I am not quite sure what that is, but if I ihad to conjecture a guess, it would potentially be what allows Rating Deviation to open up a bit more.

Small note, you could probably have just edited your previous post.

I have three questions for you:

1) Absolutely. If the player is good, plays a profession that can carry, and if their team listens to instructions. I only include the last point because not every player will be able to solo carry, only the truly top tier players. Most players, the ones who are above average or around average, can carry a bad team if the teammates listened.

If you’re the best player on the team, and all of your teammates didn’t listen, there’s very little you could do to carry.

2) See answer to #1.

3) -shrug-

Personally not whining about ELO hell. I did make a joke about it on Reddit when I hit 666 because it was staring right at me. My main concerns are really about improvements to the league system as a whole. It’s a good start, but there’s always room for improvement. Maybe some aspects of matchmaking and ladder climbing isn’t really working as intended, and should be looked into. Maybe the issues are bigger and due to low concurrent queue numbers (which isn’t a quick fix).

Personally, I had a bad start at 466. Since then, playing fairly casually at least 3 games per day, I’ve climbed to 776. I’m setting my sights low this season because I’m relatively new to PvP, and hope to make it to 1050 or 1350, depending on how well I do from now on. I plan on being much more prepared for next season by playing matches during the break.

Gaile Gray.6029:

This thread is a lively discussion. That’s cool. But please try to keep the antagonism dialed back. Maybe save it for the field of combat?

Are you suggesting gw2 players need to up their trash talk game?

Lots of people took not only took the bait but swallowed the whole kittening hook too.

7/10 based on replies

1) Is it possible to carry games
- yes it is. I climb from gold to t2 plat duoque scrapper + condi thief with pretty hard winstreaks(enemy mobility was bad until we reach plat) Now my friend learning d/p thief – carry plat is impossible and we must set up our classes to builds, where they are strongest.

2) is it possible to climb out of gold reliably if you’re consistently the best player on both teams
- you don’t know who is best in your or enemy team. At nifhel we hold 60% of time only 1 point. But my friend condi thief killing svanir and chieftan frequently. So, i ress many ppl, stomp enemy and fight for decap , but our game was winned thanks for our thief.… it’s not about your personall skill level, but team coordination. If you are best player in gold, lead your team to win.

3) why wont you guys just get good instead of spending your time whining here? Maybe you would have climbed out of gold if you did.
- thats a question, how you can get good? I want know how to play chrono at good level, but over 60+ games I still play garbage. (Yea and I try watch your guide videos,but I am still confused)

- not everyone can be legendary. I think that my placement really near to top 250 is equall to my skill level.
I have few friends, who is really good with their classes, but if you don’t have plan how outsmart your enemy – stay in gold.

BlackBeard.2873:

Gaile Gray.6029:

This thread is a lively discussion. That’s cool. But please try to keep the antagonism dialed back. Maybe save it for the field of combat?

Are you suggesting gw2 players need to up their trash talk game?

Even Gaile is at the mercy of Helseth’s salt-mine if he were to get his post deleted, considering he probably has a majority of the PvP viewers left in the game lol.