I’m positive arenanet is aware of the current meta in guild wars 2 competitive pvp, but I just want to ensure that the core issues in the current meta are well understood by both the developers and community. I also want to make clear that some issues that may be perceived by the community are actually not issues at all in competitive play. From my understanding, some of the balance in the game is driven not by the people in proleague but also by some forum input.
I am a participant in the ESL proleague team for NA called Zero Counterplay, and I don’t think there is a better name for the current meta as of now. ESL proleague tomorrow is going to be quite….a shock… from what I’ve seen in scrimmages for the past week.
Anyways, I’ll state some of the goingon’s in proleague scrimmages, issues in balance, and some (what I think to be) false beliefs in point form for conciseness. I’ll also try to cut it short, and not be stating too many specifics so that I am respectful of my fellow proleague teams.
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.
2) Thief and warrior are dead…mostly.
It saddens me, but the stuff out there in the current meta is really just too strong. Many thieves in NA have switched over I think in this past week to one of the stronger classes.
3) League system does need some finetuning.
I don’t think I have to go over this.
4) Bunker mesmer and condition revenant are beyond ridiculous, and teams having been testing their potency by running x2, x3, and even x4.
-These builds are really really really strong and extremely forgiving. Many teamfights are just a mess with 1v1s and 2v2s especially being more dictated by passive procs and luck. The skill ceiling has fallen drastically.
5) Elementalist and druid are being phased out
-Bunker mesmer is claiming their spots.. Elementalists and druids are still viable somewhat, but some teams have dropped the classes entirely.
6) Marauder scrapper is coming back, but not entirely. Like reaper now, it is being tested in comparison to bunker mes and condi rev.
7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.
I think that covers most of the things I wanted to say, but yeah things aren’t looking too bright from the competitive side. I’ll try to add things that come to mind. Proleague is still going to be a blast to watch though, so check it out tomorrow!
(edited by Aeroxe.8140)
x1000 on bunker mesmer. I’ve mained mesmer since beta and it’s depressing to see good shatter mesmers like zeromis have to play bunker to be relevant for their team.
I agree with your other points too.
Heart of thorns ruined this game.
x1000 on bunker mesmer. I’ve mained mesmer since beta and it’s depressing to see good shatter mesmers like zeromis have to play bunker to be relevant for their team.
I agree with your other points too.
I think this is what is actually been really demoralizing the competitive community as of late. Being forced to not play our main classes…the classes that we admire for their playstyle and lore…it’s been hitting us players pretty hard. Playing the game has become more so a pursuit of winning proleague as of late rather than enjoying the game and seeing ourselves improve with the classes. We can’t play our main classes ….we don’t want to cause the rest of our team to lose just because we refuse to switch off our main classes. Unlike previous metas, the number of “meta” builds has fallen drastically to maybe 3 or 4. Hopefully things change.
However, again, this is from my point of view. I’m sure many people are fine with just switching classes, because the desire to win is much greater. I still, of course, wish to win, but man does it suck when you are forced off a class you’ve mained for 2 and a half years.
There has been a premade on EU running 2x viper rev and 2x bunker mesmer. This has been one of the most painful experiences I’ve ever had in pvp. And of course I’ve been constantly getting matched against them, it’s ridiculous really.
I think this is what is actually been really demoralizing the competitive community as of late. Being forced to not play our main classes..
I see you play thief and guard, so welcome to what the experience has been for periods for every other class in this game, it is nothing new.
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.
I just want to point out, that I think this is both correct AND incorrect.
DH is relatively balanced, maybe even UP in some scenarios WHEN COMPARED TO THE “META” SPECS.
However, like all elites, DH is a pretty big upgrade and also part of the power-creep problem that is ruining the game. The amount of damage, sustain, and cc is just higher than pre-HoT specs could ever attain.
The decay of GW2 down the path of perpetual power-creep is extremely negative for the game. They really need to reduce all of the instants, invunls/blocks, and passive procs in order to bring the game back into something that is balanced. I agree with you, the game is all about whatever has “zero counterplay,” and that removes both fun and skill from the game.
I am pretty curious to see those 3x condi rev, 2x bunker mes comps. ResidentSleeper
100% agree with OP. The current PvP is becoming very stereotype. I keep fighting the same few classes with the very same build over and over again. I can’t even remember when the last time I fought thief or warrior. I can’t even blame the ppl, cause the HoT release and now the league forcing ppl to use the best possible classes and builds. And frankly, I do the same. I don’t like the build I am using on my main class, but I don’t dare to play anything else to ruin the game for others and lose pips. It’s somehow entertaining for me to be progressing in the league, but the PvP itself is less entertaining than ever before. ( my point of view though)
(edited by Miyu.8137)
Every pip farm team, every ESL team, all will slowly change their comps toward using double Bunker Chrono / Double Revenant, with small personalizations of course.
If this really does happen to the point where double mes double rev teams give everyone cancer, I will be flabbergasted if they don’t hotfix anything like bugged embrace the darkness going through evades and invulns or bugged boon duration on durability runes. It’d be embarrassing not to fix these obvious problems.
1 and 2 is kittening stupid
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.
so you hopped off thief when things got hard and rolled over to dragonhunter and then come here to defend it? it’s not “a bit” weak, it just has very niche counters from other overpowered specs that are plentiful in ESL. it’s ridiculously easy to play and provides a completely inordinate amount of reward given what one has to put into it. if herald is celestial ele 2.0, dragonhunter is turret engie 2.0.
Both Revenant and Chronomancer have been heavily over tuned across the board.
7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.
I can’t stress this enough. Ever since the legendary Dhuumfire patch of June 2013, “balancing” has consisted of adding layers upon layers of overpowered cheese on top of a generous helping of existing overpowered cheese. Anet needs to let go of the fallacy of buffing things to parity. If things continue as they are, by 2017 every class will only have one skill, the aptly named “I Win HurrDurr”, which is an instant-cast, unblockabe AoE at 1,800 range that does 10k damage. Cooldown 1 second, of course.
Just stop it ANet, pretty please.
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.so you hopped off thief when things got hard and rolled over to dragonhunter and then come here to defend it? it’s not “a bit” weak, it just has very niche counters from other overpowered specs that are plentiful in ESL. it’s ridiculously easy to play and provides a completely inordinate amount of reward given what one has to put into it. if herald is celestial ele 2.0, dragonhunter is turret engie 2.0.
If I did not play for an ESL team, I would still be playing thief. I still consider my main to be thief just because I love the class, but I rolled off of thief for now so that I could do as much as I could for my team as possible. I don’t think it’s right to play my main class just because I desperately want to or I think personally it’s viable…I have to place the needs of my team first in a tournament that means a lot to my teammates. It’s just the ethical thing to do.
Anyways, the point of the thread was to clarify some of the key issues and guide development and the community in the right direction. A secondary thing I wanted to do was to maybe better connect the community and what’s happening in pvp competitive play.
(edited by Aeroxe.8140)
Both Revenant and Chronomancer have been heavily over tuned across the board.
nobody is going to deny this, with both of these professions having a stranglehold on the game at the higher level while making ranked queues entirely unenjoyable as well, it’s clear as day they need heavy changes.
that being said, we can’t forget to address scrapper/dragonhunter/tempest/druid/reaper either; as there are numerous things about each of these that need toning down and will only replace rev/mesmer if they get nerfed while the others go untouched. whether it’s tempest being almost unkillable if you lack heavy boonstrip, druid’s over abundance of healing, dragonhunter’s damage to sustain ratio, or scrapper’s ridiculous bruiser ability; pretty much everything comes down to sustain, there’s just too much of it going around. heals are healing for too much, passive defenses are trumping active play, boons are too easily maintained/reapplied (protection/stability mainly)… when mesmer, a profession that’s always been offensively oriented, is finding it more rewarding to purely invest in sustain, something is wrong.
I don’t know if the balance team is purposely shifting the balance heavily towards sustain in some kind of gimmicky attempt to make competitive pvp look more “epic” (a buzzword for long and drawn out) but the players, of ALL skill levels, are unanimously detesting it.
I’ve never had this many friends just up and quit the game because of how bad the meta is, and sadly I know I’m not the only one in this regard. it sucks.
Anyways, the point of the thread was to clarify some of the key issues and guide development and the community in the right direction.
then don’t try to disregard one of the most problematic elites to come out of HoT as “fine” because it’s not facerolling the professions even more poorly balanced than itself.
The decay of GW2 down the path of perpetual power-creep is extremely negative for the game.
A small example I guess but this is EXACTLY what happen to my lockdown mes, which I personally found very viable previously. Now between the constant stability/ageis/evade spam to try and time a nice spike is nearly impossible and I effectively waste mine and my teams time.
Now if I want to be relevant as a Mes, I have to play bunker. Which is ofc all post HoT.
Everything is fine. Jeez. People are still testing things (even though the outcome of most of these tests is so obvious). Absurd comps, half-role builds working with other half-role builds to create an incredibility strong combined force, which can’t function when forced to split up by the other team pushing three points and counter-portalling, and being attacked when travelling between points, building comps around an interesting idea which realistically speaking will lack versatility in dealing with different opposing compositions, etc.
Everything is the same, just heightened. Tanks be tankier, support be more supportive, and damage dealers need to take more damage or more support options. People still complain about DPS guards/DH which are not seen in competitive play for a reason. People still cry thief is in a bad spot and needs a buff. People still complain about condi pressure. Actually one thing has changed - the necros are no longer all crying for buffs; the warriors are (a change I am very fine with).
(edited by Impact.2780)
I think you will never see 2x mes 2x rev
This could be contered
By range -boon striping-cc
I beat bunker mes best with my pow shater mes ,or ones i played against were just bad…
Other wise i think you are right , to many no cast time cc and blocks with quicknes becoming as ordinary as potatoes.
7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.I can’t stress this enough. Ever since the legendary Dhuumfire patch of June 2013, “balancing” has consisted of adding layers upon layers of overpowered cheese on top of a generous helping of existing overpowered cheese. Anet needs to let go of the fallacy of buffing things to parity. If things continue as they are, by 2017 every class will only have one skill, the aptly named “I Win HurrDurr”, which is an instant-cast, unblockabe AoE at 1,800 range that does 10k damage. Cooldown 1 second, of course.
Just stop it ANet, pretty please.
I really want to see many things nerfed. But when they opened the door to raids in the state it is in right now, they closed the door of nerfing classes.
If they start to nerf classes, they may have to rework the raid, as the raid require a certain amount of damage to be cleared. Nerfing the damage of some classes might make the raid unclearable.
That is why I advocated long before raids became a thing, that enrage timers aren’t good design. Now the PvP part has to suffer the consequences of the PvE part having fights on a tight timer.
I’m positive arenanet is aware of the current meta in guild wars 2 competitive pvp, but I just want to ensure that the core issues in the current meta are well understood by both the developers and community. I also want to make clear that some issues that may be perceived by the community are actually not issues at all in competitive play. From my understanding, some of the balance in the game is driven not by the people in proleague but also by some forum input.
I am a participant in the ESL proleague team for NA called Zero Counterplay, and I don’t think there is a better name for the current meta as of now. ESL proleague tomorrow is going to be quite….a shock… from what I’ve seen in scrimmages for the past week.
Anyways, I’ll state some of the goingon’s in proleague scrimmages, issues in balance, and some (what I think to be) false beliefs in point form for conciseness. I’ll also try to cut it short, and not be stating too many specifics so that I am respectful of my fellow proleague teams.
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.2) Thief and warrior are dead…mostly.
It saddens me, but the stuff out there in the current meta is really just too strong. Many thieves in NA have switched over I think in this past week to one of the stronger classes.3) League system does need some finetuning.
I don’t think I have to go over this.4) Bunker mesmer and condition revenant are beyond ridiculous, and teams having been testing their potency by running x2, x3, and even x4.
-These builds are really really really strong and extremely forgiving. Many teamfights are just a mess with 1v1s and 2v2s especially being more dictated by passive procs and luck. The skill ceiling has fallen drastically.5) Elementalist and druid are being phased out
-Bunker mesmer is claiming their spots.. Elementalists and druids are still viable somewhat, but some teams have dropped the classes entirely.6) Marauder scrapper is coming back, but not entirely. Like reaper now, it is being tested in comparison to bunker mes and condi rev.
7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.I think that covers most of the things I wanted to say, but yeah things aren’t looking too bright from the competitive side. I’ll try to add things that come to mind. Proleague is still going to be a blast to watch though, so check it out tomorrow!
What about reaper??
7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.I can’t stress this enough. Ever since the legendary Dhuumfire patch of June 2013, “balancing” has consisted of adding layers upon layers of overpowered cheese on top of a generous helping of existing overpowered cheese. Anet needs to let go of the fallacy of buffing things to parity. If things continue as they are, by 2017 every class will only have one skill, the aptly named “I Win HurrDurr”, which is an instant-cast, unblockabe AoE at 1,800 range that does 10k damage. Cooldown 1 second, of course.
Just stop it ANet, pretty please.
I really want to see many things nerfed. But when they opened the door to raids in the state it is in right now, they closed the door of nerfing classes.
If they start to nerf classes, they may have to rework the raid, as the raid require a certain amount of damage to be cleared. Nerfing the damage of some classes might make the raid unclearable.
That is why I advocated long before raids became a thing, that enrage timers aren’t good design. Now the PvP part has to suffer the consequences of the PvE part having fights on a tight timer.
Enrage timers are fine. They actually make raids a bit harder, which is really good, and important. Losing those timers you’d see stupid builds based around tanking, and not doing the mechanics. Or 10 druids. or stupid things like that.
We usually finish VG with 90 seconds left, and Gor with about a minute left. SC did got with 4:10 left on the timer. And you think a few things cant lose a bit of damage?
Malyx isnt seen much in raids, a bit, but not much. That can be nerfed. Alacrity bunker can be nerfed as well, without losing much. Especially if they add reflects, mesmers will find another way to do dps, or start tanking instead.
I really hate the mentality that people tend to have , when they can’t beat a certain build they come to these forums and nag for nerfs due to their incompetence. At the moment most professions have a couple of good or great builds IF the player is skilful with the right build . You can still beat bunker mesmers, revs, DHs , reapers, scrappers , elems and so on . It just takes skill and timing , positioning rather than blindly executing your typical rotation. Distance yourself from traps , don’t waste resources when mesmer is evading and so on . That being said the skillcap requirement for some proffesions requires is much higher for some than for others ( I’m looking at thief in particular). Overall I’d say buff the weaker specs to be more awesome , and be able to compete with current meta rather than nerfing the stronger ones – end result feels more fun in this case . But even as it stands any proffesions can beat any other proffesion depending on the build they are using and their skill level
I’m positive arenanet is aware of the current meta in guild wars 2 competitive pvp, but I just want to ensure that the core issues in the current meta are well understood by both the developers and community. I also want to make clear that some issues that may be perceived by the community are actually not issues at all in competitive play. From my understanding, some of the balance in the game is driven not by the people in proleague but also by some forum input.
I am a participant in the ESL proleague team for NA called Zero Counterplay, and I don’t think there is a better name for the current meta as of now. ESL proleague tomorrow is going to be quite….a shock… from what I’ve seen in scrimmages for the past week.
Anyways, I’ll state some of the goingon’s in proleague scrimmages, issues in balance, and some (what I think to be) false beliefs in point form for conciseness. I’ll also try to cut it short, and not be stating too many specifics so that I am respectful of my fellow proleague teams.
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.2) Thief and warrior are dead…mostly.
It saddens me, but the stuff out there in the current meta is really just too strong. Many thieves in NA have switched over I think in this past week to one of the stronger classes.3) League system does need some finetuning.
I don’t think I have to go over this.4) Bunker mesmer and condition revenant are beyond ridiculous, and teams having been testing their potency by running x2, x3, and even x4.
-These builds are really really really strong and extremely forgiving. Many teamfights are just a mess with 1v1s and 2v2s especially being more dictated by passive procs and luck. The skill ceiling has fallen drastically.5) Elementalist and druid are being phased out
-Bunker mesmer is claiming their spots.. Elementalists and druids are still viable somewhat, but some teams have dropped the classes entirely.6) Marauder scrapper is coming back, but not entirely. Like reaper now, it is being tested in comparison to bunker mes and condi rev.
7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.I think that covers most of the things I wanted to say, but yeah things aren’t looking too bright from the competitive side. I’ll try to add things that come to mind. Proleague is still going to be a blast to watch though, so check it out tomorrow!
Just as you said, meta is dictated by forum perception but what you’ve just done right now, is incept the perception of the forum, going full on spew mode on reinforcing and backing up the claims that the rest of the (mostly wrong) community has been saying.
I won’t lie, Bunker Mesmers are hard to kill and they influence matches a lot, their survivability is off the charts and running two of them in team fights can allow you to last incredibly long BUT that does not mean they can’t be out-rotated or beaten, it just means they might need a looking at to give them more of a weakness. Right now their only weakness is Necro because, the necro can hit them in the small window that they are vulnerable, shutting them down semi-completely, even beating them in 1v1s. But from what I’ve seen, many of you teams are unwilling to even try to counter the meta. Most of what I see people do is complain and complain and complain without actually looking at what tools they have. Seriously, all I see all the time is mirror comps upon mirror comps and then you scream bloody murder when you can’t kill the other guy who beat you on the very same comp you were playing. Seriously, you guys need to wake up.
The same with Condi Revs. These guys are far from OP. If the counter to Power Rev is condi, the counter to the current condi rev is burst. And going further than that, the counter to the entire current meta of Double condi Rev and Double mesmer, is a combination of burst and condition damage. A good coordinated spike on a condi Rev will down him in a few seconds. Your retort could be “A coordinated spike would kill anyone in a few seconds” but just to humour you, I will explain why it’s different for Revs. On Viper’s, Revs have low health, low toughness, allowing them to be easily bursted down. Strip their boons, condi burst them and CC them to keep them from casting Resistance and condi will kill them faster than a GW1 necro minion getting blasted by holy damage.
Seriously guys, you switch builds to what’s powerful because you want to win but the funny thing is, the team that played what is currently considered powerful, played it because it countered what was powerful. So guess what you have to do in order to beat them? Oh…. wait…. you’re just going to copy them aren’t you? Never mind, forget I said anything.
ESL games are boring in this season .
Game is balanced Colin said so!Believe it!
Just as you said, meta is dictated by forum perception but what you’ve just done right now, is incept the perception of the forum, going full on spew mode on reinforcing and backing up the claims that the rest of the (mostly wrong) community has been saying.
I won’t lie, Bunker Mesmers are hard to kill and they influence matches a lot, their survivability is off the charts and running two of them in team fights can allow you to last incredibly long BUT that does not mean they can’t be out-rotated or beaten, it just means they might need a looking at to give them more of a weakness. Right now their only weakness is Necro because, the necro can hit them in the small window that they are vulnerable, shutting them down semi-completely, even beating them in 1v1s. But from what I’ve seen, many of you teams are unwilling to even try to counter the meta. Most of what I see people do is complain and complain and complain without actually looking at what tools they have. Seriously, all I see all the time is mirror comps upon mirror comps and then you scream bloody murder when you can’t kill the other guy who beat you on the very same comp you were playing. Seriously, you guys need to wake up.
The same with Condi Revs. These guys are far from OP. If the counter to Power Rev is condi, the counter to the current condi rev is burst. And going further than that, the counter to the entire current meta of Double condi Rev and Double mesmer, is a combination of burst and condition damage. A good coordinated spike on a condi Rev will down him in a few seconds. Your retort could be “A coordinated spike would kill anyone in a few seconds” but just to humour you, I will explain why it’s different for Revs. On Viper’s, Revs have low health, low toughness, allowing them to be easily bursted down. Strip their boons, condi burst them and CC them to keep them from casting Resistance and condi will kill them faster than a GW1 necro minion getting blasted by holy damage.
Seriously guys, you switch builds to what’s powerful because you want to win but the funny thing is, the team that played what is currently considered powerful, played it because it countered what was powerful. So guess what you have to do in order to beat them? Oh…. wait…. you’re just going to copy them aren’t you? Never mind, forget I said anything.
I think you are missing many of the points. Personally my main problem with the new meta, is not even how restrictive it is but how unfun it is. Too much CC, too much invulnerabilities, too much damage, too much healing. The fact that they all balance themselves somewhat does not mean the meta is fine.
Very good insight from the OP. I think that #7 (power creep) is the biggest issue that’s keeping me personally from really being able to get into the post-HoT PvP environment.
If honestly reflect on why some previous meta builds fell out of favor, you’ll probably realize that most of them didn’t get nerfed (even if it feels that way). The sad truth is that there’s just more builds out there that are better and stronger.
I think you will never see 2x mes 2x rev
This could be conteredBy range -boon striping-cc
I beat bunker mes best with my pow shater mes ,or ones i played against were just bad…
Other wise i think you are right , to many no cast time cc and blocks with quicknes becoming as ordinary as potatoes.
Boon strip and cc ? Hum.. I wonder which are the two best class at doing that right now..
Oh….
heart of thorns ruined this game
I’m positive arenanet is aware of the current meta in guild wars 2 competitive pvp, but I just want to ensure that the core issues in the current meta are well understood by both the developers and community. I also want to make clear that some issues that may be perceived by the community are actually not issues at all in competitive play. From my understanding, some of the balance in the game is driven not by the people in proleague but also by some forum input.
I am a participant in the ESL proleague team for NA called Zero Counterplay, and I don’t think there is a better name for the current meta as of now. ESL proleague tomorrow is going to be quite….a shock… from what I’ve seen in scrimmages for the past week.
Anyways, I’ll state some of the goingon’s in proleague scrimmages, issues in balance, and some (what I think to be) false beliefs in point form for conciseness. I’ll also try to cut it short, and not be stating too many specifics so that I am respectful of my fellow proleague teams.
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
If anything, it’s actually a bit weak at the moment, and I don’t think many of the teams currently in NA are running it (I believe one team is?). I don’t agree entirely with some of the class design choices, but yeah you won’t see much of this in proleague. It’s just not good enough.2) Thief and warrior are dead…mostly.
It saddens me, but the stuff out there in the current meta is really just too strong. Many thieves in NA have switched over I think in this past week to one of the stronger classes.3) League system does need some finetuning.
I don’t think I have to go over this.4) Bunker mesmer and condition revenant are beyond ridiculous, and teams having been testing their potency by running x2, x3, and even x4.
-These builds are really really really strong and extremely forgiving. Many teamfights are just a mess with 1v1s and 2v2s especially being more dictated by passive procs and luck. The skill ceiling has fallen drastically.5) Elementalist and druid are being phased out
-Bunker mesmer is claiming their spots.. Elementalists and druids are still viable somewhat, but some teams have dropped the classes entirely.6) Marauder scrapper is coming back, but not entirely. Like reaper now, it is being tested in comparison to bunker mes and condi rev.
7) The power creep is very, very real.
-Balance patches in the future should aim not to buff underpowered specs, but to tune what is too strong at the present time.I think that covers most of the things I wanted to say, but yeah things aren’t looking too bright from the competitive side. I’ll try to add things that come to mind. Proleague is still going to be a blast to watch though, so check it out tomorrow!
Quoted for truth.
I think you will never see 2x mes 2x rev
This could be conteredBy range -boon striping-cc
I beat bunker mes best with my pow shater mes ,or ones i played against were just bad…
Other wise i think you are right , to many no cast time cc and blocks with quicknes becoming as ordinary as potatoes.
Boon strip and cc ? Hum.. I wonder which are the two best class at doing that right now..
Oh….
In my book still best boon striping class is necro…
This same necro if power based will beat that mesmer ,how many bunker mes realy take that null field(since you dont go in shater line)?
Engi hammer and tool-kit ,match revenant if not outmatch them,a good engi is better contrinbution to a team than revenant imho.
A good wr, yes wr will take down that rev in very short time,or just time that shocking aura on UA and half of revenant* dmg is gone.
PPl just copy “pro” teams not thinking and even pro teams are copying with out thinking,as it seams…
You dont have to be super player to find counters,question is can you execute them and against which oponent.(this is in the area of theory only since no1 can measure this )
(edited by deda.8302)
I think you are missing many of the points. Personally my main problem with the new meta, is not even how restrictive it is but how unfun it is. Too much CC, too much invulnerabilities, too much damage, too much healing. The fact that they all balance themselves somewhat does not mean the meta is fine.
Doesn’t the main point come down to “Nerf Condi Rev and Bunker Mes?” Or did I get that wrong somehow?
I think you are missing many of the points. Personally my main problem with the new meta, is not even how restrictive it is but how unfun it is. Too much CC, too much invulnerabilities, too much damage, too much healing. The fact that they all balance themselves somewhat does not mean the meta is fine.
Doesn’t the main point come down to “Nerf Condi Rev and Bunker Mes?” Or did I get that wrong somehow?
I think it was more along the lines of “Nerf the huge number of passive procs, instant-cast skills, spike damage, invulnerabilities, evades, blocks, and general skill spam that have been steadily introduced into the game over the past couple years.” Chronomancer and Revenant happen to have a lot of those things, but the problem goes beyond just those two. As mentioned earlier in the thread, if you just nerf Bunker Chrono and Condi Rev, you’re not going to see any significant change, because the other Elite specs are still incredibly overpowered, and they’re just going to move in to fill the void. Maybe Daredevil would see a bit more play, but non-elite specs were still completely shut out even before we saw the rise of those two builds.
As a sidebar, I don’t really understand how some people are okay with a meta where two professions are virtually unplayable, non-elite specs are obsolete, and where the general skill ceiling has fallen dramatically. Just because you’re having success in this meta doesn’t mean that the game is in a healthy state. Similarly, the fact that it’s possible to counter certain builds doesn’t mean that those builds are positive factors in the metagame as a whole.
what i think funny is when guard and ele took the role of semi bunker/support it was fine but when mesmer took this role is wrong and op
the problem is not with mesmer and rev build (bunker and codni)
the problem with the current meta as state above
too much power
too much cc
too much immunity
those pushed the meta to try condi pressure (with rev,necro) and bunkering too much with mesmer
but if the meta where bit more balance teams wont take 2 condi rev rather more power/support
but with too power you need full support/bunker which mesmer fully geared to do so is great atm. so nerfing the power and cc will lead in less neediness in full bunker mesmer
i love the idea that mesmer can play something else after 3 years of full power shatter
so nerfing bunkering build will ruine it and build diversity
i think what will happen if anet manage to bring back thief and warrior to the comp meta what will happen ….
Like always, I can’t wait for them to take forever to do anything and then do plenty of wrong things with only 1 or 2 good ones. The power creep is real and is unlikely to ever end. People have been telling them to stop with this idiocy for years.
January. Releasing leagues before then. Pfft. Hilarious.
1) Dragonhunter is fine.
*snip
2) Thief dead
Guess why ? I made it easy for you.
@OPN Reaper is solid, but it’s just easier to focus down than a condition Revenant, so it’s riskier to play.
@muscarine How would Dragonhunter be why Thief was dead at top tier if nobody at top tier runs Dragonhunter.
Thankyou for posting OP.
I must agree that i would rather see OP classes nerfed than UP classes buffed. The power creep is insane.
GG double condi rev and bunker mesmer meta.
Goodbye reaper, nice knowing you. As a reaper this makes me sad.
GG double condi rev and bunker mesmer meta.
Goodbye reaper, nice knowing you. As a reaper this makes me sad.
What? Reapers are fine.
Bunker mesmer is fine. They just need to make some of the invul from Mesmer removes point capture contribution. It makes no sense to spam invul and still keep the point.
Now lets give some time till the not so smart mesmer pros and all the people following them find out the bunker condi chrono build which allows 1 person to not only hold a node or two due to TP, but burst people down insane amount of condi pressure. This is however boring AF to play. I skyrocketed to Sapphire while only losing 5 games but blocking 24/7 and watching enemies around you randomly die is anti-fun. Went back to the good old Shatter Chrono, feels like an improved version of a Thief.
Bunker mesmer is fine. They just need to make some of the invul from Mesmer removes point capture contribution. It makes no sense to spam invul and still keep the point.
F4 does remove point capture, and shield 4 can be interrupted. That leaves what I think you’re referring to, which is sword 2 in addition to well of precog that is a 3s aoe evade on a kitten CD. Meh, I think they are fine. If you have access to an unblockable interrupt, usually interrupting shield 4 can secure a down on a mesmer.
I think you are missing many of the points. Personally my main problem with the new meta, is not even how restrictive it is but how unfun it is. Too much CC, too much invulnerabilities, too much damage, too much healing. The fact that they all balance themselves somewhat does not mean the meta is fine.
Doesn’t the main point come down to “Nerf Condi Rev and Bunker Mes?” Or did I get that wrong somehow?
I think it was more along the lines of “Nerf the huge number of passive procs, instant-cast skills, spike damage, invulnerabilities, evades, blocks, and general skill spam that have been steadily introduced into the game over the past couple years.” Chronomancer and Revenant happen to have a lot of those things, but the problem goes beyond just those two. As mentioned earlier in the thread, if you just nerf Bunker Chrono and Condi Rev, you’re not going to see any significant change, because the other Elite specs are still incredibly overpowered, and they’re just going to move in to fill the void. Maybe Daredevil would see a bit more play, but non-elite specs were still completely shut out even before we saw the rise of those two builds.
As a sidebar, I don’t really understand how some people are okay with a meta where two professions are virtually unplayable, non-elite specs are obsolete, and where the general skill ceiling has fallen dramatically. Just because you’re having success in this meta doesn’t mean that the game is in a healthy state. Similarly, the fact that it’s possible to counter certain builds doesn’t mean that those builds are positive factors in the metagame as a whole.
The only reason why non-elite specs are “obsolete” is because we are a bunch of sheep who like to follow instead of see what counters what. Base condi Necro? Easily meta material able to counter all the “OP” specs. Shout Guard? Easily counters condi spam from Revs, DD Ele? that piece of craziness is still hard to kill. We could counter the meta but we’d rather just complain about it because….. reasons.
I think you are missing many of the points. Personally my main problem with the new meta, is not even how restrictive it is but how unfun it is. Too much CC, too much invulnerabilities, too much damage, too much healing. The fact that they all balance themselves somewhat does not mean the meta is fine.
Doesn’t the main point come down to “Nerf Condi Rev and Bunker Mes?” Or did I get that wrong somehow?
I think it was more along the lines of “Nerf the huge number of passive procs, instant-cast skills, spike damage, invulnerabilities, evades, blocks, and general skill spam that have been steadily introduced into the game over the past couple years.” Chronomancer and Revenant happen to have a lot of those things, but the problem goes beyond just those two. As mentioned earlier in the thread, if you just nerf Bunker Chrono and Condi Rev, you’re not going to see any significant change, because the other Elite specs are still incredibly overpowered, and they’re just going to move in to fill the void. Maybe Daredevil would see a bit more play, but non-elite specs were still completely shut out even before we saw the rise of those two builds.
As a sidebar, I don’t really understand how some people are okay with a meta where two professions are virtually unplayable, non-elite specs are obsolete, and where the general skill ceiling has fallen dramatically. Just because you’re having success in this meta doesn’t mean that the game is in a healthy state. Similarly, the fact that it’s possible to counter certain builds doesn’t mean that those builds are positive factors in the metagame as a whole.
The only reason why non-elite specs are “obsolete” is because we are a bunch of sheep who like to follow instead of see what counters what. Base condi Necro? Easily meta material able to counter all the “OP” specs. Shout Guard? Easily counters condi spam from Revs, DD Ele? that piece of craziness is still hard to kill. We could counter the meta but we’d rather just complain about it because….. reasons.
Words from a wise man.
The only reason why non-elite specs are “obsolete” is because we are a bunch of sheep who like to follow instead of see what counters what. Base condi Necro? Easily meta material able to counter all the “OP” specs. Shout Guard? Easily counters condi spam from Revs, DD Ele? that piece of craziness is still hard to kill. We could counter the meta but we’d rather just complain about it because….. reasons.
They are obsolete because they are obsolete. Shout guard is out without minstrel amulet. Core condi necro is an awful spec. D/D ele is still ok, which is why some people still played it.
Good news: the perma-resistance variant of bunker chrono may counter condi rev.
The only reason why non-elite specs are “obsolete” is because we are a bunch of sheep who like to follow instead of see what counters what. Base condi Necro? Easily meta material able to counter all the “OP” specs. Shout Guard? Easily counters condi spam from Revs, DD Ele? that piece of craziness is still hard to kill. We could counter the meta but we’d rather just complain about it because….. reasons.
They are obsolete because they are obsolete. Shout guard is out without minstrel amulet. Core condi necro is an awful spec. D/D ele is still ok, which is why some people still played it.
Good news: the perma-resistance variant of bunker chrono may counter condi rev.
If you don’t believe me that’s fine. Just know that if you’re not willing to actually think about how to counter the meta, you’re part of the problem.
I think you are missing many of the points. Personally my main problem with the new meta, is not even how restrictive it is but how unfun it is. Too much CC, too much invulnerabilities, too much damage, too much healing. The fact that they all balance themselves somewhat does not mean the meta is fine.
Doesn’t the main point come down to “Nerf Condi Rev and Bunker Mes?” Or did I get that wrong somehow?
I think it was more along the lines of “Nerf the huge number of passive procs, instant-cast skills, spike damage, invulnerabilities, evades, blocks, and general skill spam that have been steadily introduced into the game over the past couple years.” Chronomancer and Revenant happen to have a lot of those things, but the problem goes beyond just those two. As mentioned earlier in the thread, if you just nerf Bunker Chrono and Condi Rev, you’re not going to see any significant change, because the other Elite specs are still incredibly overpowered, and they’re just going to move in to fill the void. Maybe Daredevil would see a bit more play, but non-elite specs were still completely shut out even before we saw the rise of those two builds.
As a sidebar, I don’t really understand how some people are okay with a meta where two professions are virtually unplayable, non-elite specs are obsolete, and where the general skill ceiling has fallen dramatically. Just because you’re having success in this meta doesn’t mean that the game is in a healthy state. Similarly, the fact that it’s possible to counter certain builds doesn’t mean that those builds are positive factors in the metagame as a whole.
The only reason why non-elite specs are “obsolete” is because we are a bunch of sheep who like to follow instead of see what counters what. Base condi Necro? Easily meta material able to counter all the “OP” specs. Shout Guard? Easily counters condi spam from Revs, DD Ele? that piece of craziness is still hard to kill. We could counter the meta but we’d rather just complain about it because….. reasons.
Post some footage from ranked play with some of these builds, then, and demonstrate how they counter the builds currently at the top of competitive play (or fill the same roles more effectively). If you’re going to make a claim like that, then the burden of proof is on you. But keep in mind, there are lots of players who actually want to play their core specs, and players who are forced to because they didn’t purchase HoT. Support for these specs hasn’t disappeared in the way you’re suggesting.
From my perspective, though, Condition Necro seems like a really bad idea in such a CC-heavy meta, considering the core Necro’s famous weakness to CC of all types. If Reaper’s Shroud didn’t offer an excellent source of continuous Stability, I don’t imagine you’d see nearly as many in high-level play. Many Guardian mains tried Bunker Guard shortly before the Pro Leagues started and got obliterated by this meta’s unique combination of unblockable attacks, boon-stripping, condition spam, and chain CC. And as mentioned above, core Ele actually has seen play at the top level, but its representation has been minimal and more teams are moving away from it as time passes. The new levels of pressure introduced with HoT don’t allow it to have the same staying power that it used to.
And for the record, I’m still running with core Burn Guardian because I don’t really like how the meta DH build plays in PvP. Does Burn Guard work decently (at my level of play)? Yeah, it does. Is it harder to succeed with it than it was pre-HoT? Very, very much so. What used to be a decently tanky build feels like glass against most of the elite specs, and making pretty much any mistake usually means that I’ll be on the ground within the next few seconds. I’m going to stick with it, but I’m also not going to pretend that the game’s been heading in a healthy direction all this time.
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