Guild Wars 2

I’m not saying I know all, but there’s a glaring issue in GW2 that I think needs to be discussed.

OVERVIEW
GW2 has always be burst verse bunk verse condi.

The game is balanced around extremes, so has massive meta shifts with minor changes. It leads to more (casual fustrating) burst centric or (generally annoying) condi centric or (god forbid) bunker centric metas… it leads to physical dps classes forced to pay burst and burst allone, it leads to condi classes outputting rediculous pure condition dmg and/or being very survivable… any spec that can’t do that is just subpar or bunker.
Allot of people hate allot about that, so that’s what I’d like to address.

HOW IT STARTED
With power/crit/critdmg scaling so well together, you tend to end up netting much more dmg by going burst than the survivability you lose through a more balanced physical dmg build (with the hard CC in this game, it’s not hard at all to get a working burst combo into a spec).

It means physical dmg classes are innately pigeon-holed into burst.

THE PROBLEMS CREATED
-inflated Condi dmg.
-extremely tanky bunkers, short of fighting with a very meta spec
-extremely spastic meta that revolves around bad extremes (condi and bunk mainly)

Physical dmg being burst or bunk creates an EXTREMELY high baseline to balance dmg around, condi dmg (with one stat) has to deal competitive dmg with only condi’s (since anything but stacked power/crit/critdmg is useless) compared to top tier burst (which is very high dmg that you have to spec very nichely to be able to mitigate), bunkers need to have REALLY high survivability to keep up with the top tier burst and of course also the inflated dmg from condi classes.

That leaves it as a ‘burst or condi or bunk’ deal… balanced around extremes, little if any room for middle ground.
Making a game like that, it makes it very hard to stop the game from tilting harshly to one meta or another causing massive fluctuations with minor changes.

Anyways, discuss.

Are you perhaps… dumb?

I am speechless. There have been no successful power builds in this meta for the past half year with the sole exceptions being warrior and s/d thief (none of which do burst, both are sustained), and you suggest nerf to power damage? With condition specs being so dumb and soul crushingly easy to play even for the dumbest of dumb apes? Where did you come up with this? What game do you play?

Have you even realized that it takes completely damage dedicated spec with little survivability to achieve a passing level of burst, that gets negated by any little thing in the current meta, while condition specs only invest into one stat getting tankiness in return while dealing more reliable damage?

Honestly everything you have said in your post made me angry. If you are a troll, gg, you have won the internets

@Silferas

Sigh…
Are you willing to listen if I explained how we could both be right?
Or do you want to just let it be? or take more time to calm down?

This can’t go anywhere if you’re not willing to listen or furious over some point you want to think I said.

It’s a legitimate suggestion. Some people do feel that burst is too high, condi damage is too high, and survivability is too high all at the same time. The idea is that things would be more fair if builds were normalized so that no build would be that different from another (i.e. you could be a dps, but you wouldn’t deal that much more damage than a bunker, and the bunker wouldn’t be that much more tanky than you).

My opinion is that build diversity should stay. The extremes were a bit much at launch, but have been toned down a lot since then.

NevirSayDie.6235:

My opinion is that build diversity should stay. The extremes were a bit much at launch, but have been toned down a lot since then.

Ideally this wouldn’t lessen diversity at all.
Burst builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be every spec that wants to deal viable physical dmg.
Condi builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be, next to always, extremely bunkery.
Bunker builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t need meta specs or 3+ people on them to die in a reasonable time.

The idea is only to open up the meta and stop massive spasms. It’s not what you seem to be leading on to, it’s not aiming for normalizing. From how I see it, bunkers would still deal that much less dmg than burst. The most notable change, after everything mellows out, would ideally be that physical dmg and condi specs won’t be forced into the static roles that rule this game’s meta, that and bunker self healing will be lessened.

All I can see happening from this is a much wider meta that actually can live and breath a bit since all those dozens of middle of the line builds are playable, meaning there are dozens of new ways to play out team comps.
But I am really tired, so could be missing things.
It could just lead to more normalized builds where people do end up abandoning all of pure bunk/burst for more mixed, exc.
Lol.

garethh.3518:

NevirSayDie.6235:

My opinion is that build diversity should stay. The extremes were a bit much at launch, but have been toned down a lot since then.

Ideally this wouldn’t lessen diversity at all.
Burst builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be every spec that wants to deal viable physical dmg.
Condi builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be, next to always, extremely bunkery.
Bunker builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t need meta specs or 3+ people on them to die in a reasonable time.

The idea is only to open up the meta and stop massive spasms.

I meant build diversity as in the extent to which builds are different. Of course there will always be different builds. Basically the suggestion is that damage and bunker builds get pushed toward each other, so that burst is less bursty and tank is less tanky. I agree that can sometimes be necessary (as at launch) but I think that we’re past that and that the diversity can stay.

Jackums.3496:

They shouldn’t even think about touching power damage until they fix the state of conditions.

If you read the post, I’m saying ‘the best way to fix condis is to fix power alongside it’.
If you just nerf conditions, we’ll end in another power/burst meta.

The only way to avoid that is to lower the scaling from crit, then power specs wouldn’t be forced to go burst (if not they are subpar), then condi dmg can be globally nerfed (pretty hard) since the dmg won’t need to be as high to stay relevant exc. exc.

It’s a wee bit roundabout but hits on the issue you seem to have with the game, and many, many more.

Just make it so PvP doesn’t have amulets, make all PvP gear have “Celestial” stats on them. This is roughly what happens:
- Burst is less burstier.
- Condition builds are less damaging.
- Tanks are less tanky.
- Bursts survive longer.
- Tanks do a bit more damage.
- Runes/sigils play a bigger portion of the role we want to specialize in.
- Trait attributes begin to form the build more/become more meaningful.
- Opens up many more build options because hybrids are now viable, and traits become less about optimal in-and-out burst potential OR ultimate survival.
- People die on points by not being able to bunker forever.
- People don’t die in 2 seconds because some builds are built to do so much damage in under 2 seconds that they don’t even have time to react.
- On crit sigils become a bit more useful as a whole, because everyone has (at bare minimal) 20% cirt and capping about roughly 43% with precision runes and deep investment in a critical line.
- All minions would have to scale with stats to avoid being over powered. (I play an MM).
- People will still think this is a bad idea because big change scares them and it SOUNDS like it limits options.

Just my crazy two cents >_>:

That’s not to say further balancing may be needed, but it’d be a real step in the right direction if you ever want true balance and less gimmicks.

ronpierce.2760:

That’s not to say further balancing may be needed, but it’d be a real step in the right direction if you ever want true balance and less gimmicks.

Off the top of my head, not a big fan, but when I’ve actually gotten some sleep and can think better I’ll get back to you on that.
:)

We need more amulets….

NevirSayDie.6235:

garethh.3518:

NevirSayDie.6235:

My opinion is that build diversity should stay. The extremes were a bit much at launch, but have been toned down a lot since then.

Ideally this wouldn’t lessen diversity at all.
Burst builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be every spec that wants to deal viable physical dmg.
Condi builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t be, next to always, extremely bunkery.
Bunker builds would still exist, they just wouldn’t need meta specs or 3+ people on them to die in a reasonable time.

The idea is only to open up the meta and stop massive spasms.

I meant build diversity as in the extent to which builds are different. Of course there will always be different builds. Basically the suggestion is that damage and bunker builds get pushed toward each other, so that burst is less bursty and tank is less tanky. I agree that can sometimes be necessary (as at launch) but I think that we’re past that and that the diversity can stay.

Here, i’ll just throw out topics-> pro’s verse cons.

Bunkers
No one likes beating up on a brick wall, that happens sometimes, especially if you’re not using meta dps. It’s not a major issue, but could be improved, this would improve that.

Jackums.3496:

garethh.3518:

If you just nerf conditions, we’ll end in another power/burst meta.

No. You’re assuming that by toning them down we’ll be nerfing them into the ground. They can be made more reasonable without being completely invalidated.

I wrote that badly didn’t I?
What I should have said is…. either way, with condi’s nerfed or not, you’re going to end with many mindless condi-spam bunkers (just a lil less OP, balance and balance alone will leave anyone that wants to play a condi spec forced to go condi/bunk) and a notable number of mindnuming physical dmg builds.

Kinda trying to address that..

Yeah, physical dmg doesn’t seem like much of an issue, on the surface, but from what I’ve seen it was the kickstarter to get all these massively inflated condi dmg numbers rolling (right now going ‘part physical’ on a condi build isn’t remotely viable short of building glass/might-stack on kitten like engi. That means you have to go all condi dmg or none, so that 798~ condi dmg has to give a spec all the +dmg it needs to be viable… so condi specs are forced into pure condi-bunker situations since they have extra stats and no offense to gain from them, that is one of the major issues this whole thing was getting at)

Condi should be pressure dmg and Power should be burst-more fast damage…

Period

Dude I don’t agree 100% with you but I think they should reduce everything to make the game more enjoyable, reduce burst , condi and Bunkers . I think bunkering should only be possible in a team , ex : fighting at mid and everybody contributes to stay alive but self healing should be nerfed into the ground . Fighting bunkers is not fun at all .

Dardamaniac.1295:

Condi should be pressure dmg and Power should be burst-more fast damage…

Period

Clarify?
A difference between the two is cool, a difference is good. Cleansing assures that a difference is there and will be to stay.
But zoning out entire playstyles…
ehh.

It’s not like you can choose to focus on condi dmg or power in the middle of a match so any and all difference in roles doesn’t make depth, if you could, then what you’re saying would make great gameplay, but that’s not really the case.

That just means, (if it’s even your point) if pressure is limited to condi dmg and burst is all power can do, the game will stay with the same stale meta filled with MANY mindnuming specs.

a t s e.9614:

Dude I don’t agree 100% with you

care to talk it out?

I would like condi and bunkers to befixed. Burst dmg never was a problem . And as other people said , self healing ability should be greatly reduced to fix bunker.

a t s e.9614:

I would like condi and bunkers to befixed. Burst dmg never was a problem . And as other people said , self healing ability should be greatly reduced to fix bunker.

One of the major things I was geting at was that if crit dmg didn’t scale much with power (mainly be based off of base ability dmg), then condi specs could use rabid or carrion and get viable amounts of bonus physical dmg (nothing crazy, but notable instead of the negligible 569 power or crit gives right now), which would let condi dmg be widely nerfed. It’d make a situation where condi specs couldn’t throw everything into bunkering after they get their 700-1k condi dmg, it’d lower the insane need for everyone to stack cleansing, it’d cause condi specs to need to take a more offensive amulet to really get all the dmg they can get.

(if that isn’t all just repeating myself to you)

garethh.3518:

It’d make a situation where condi specs couldn’t throw everything into bunkering after they get their 700-1k condi dmg, they would need to take a more offensive amulet to really get all the dmg they can get.

There currently aren’t any meta builds that use settler’s amulet except maybe spirit ranger. Necro will always use either rabid or carrion, and condition engineers will almost always use rabid. Necro generally has zero points in defensive traitlines and engineers are usually about half and half.

NevirSayDie.6235:

garethh.3518:

It’d make a situation where condi specs couldn’t throw everything into bunkering after they get their 700-1k condi dmg, they would need to take a more offensive amulet to really get all the dmg they can get.

There currently aren’t any meta builds that use settler’s amulet except maybe spirit ranger. Necro will always use either rabid or carrion, and condition engineers will almost always use rabid. Necro generally has zero points in defensive traitlines and engineers are usually about half and half.

Yeah, that should be clarified.
Thanks for the reminder
In those cases, since condi dmg would be globally cut back, the physical dmg from crit or power would try to fill the gap. To keep up with the same sort of dps they are doing now it might be a good idea to push them towards rampager.

Anyways, all in all, this wouldn’t end up killing those builds or even largely switch up whether or not they are viable, but it would largely change how you can fight them and most likely change how dynamic the spec is to play (since now every weapon ability is worth using)
(that’s why I thought this was a great idea worthy of a thread)

Since condi’s won’t be the main and only source of dmg, toughness would give notable mitigation, cleansing wouldn’t be downright necessary to have stacked to have a chance, exc. exc.

Roll the game back to pre-PAX. Keep the “fixes”, and start over again from there… don’t give burning to necros.. give them mobility.. scale pet stats with the owner’s stats.. reduce bunkers effectiveness… then reduce burst damage.. either nerf stealth or make it possible to have a counter play to it, for example: if you look the guy from behind you’ll see him even when he’s in stealth… or greatly reduce speed while you’re in stealth..

I also think ronpierce.2760’s idea would be nice too.. or something in that direction.

garethh.3518:

Yeah, that should be clarified.
Thanks for the reminder
In those cases, since condi dmg would be globally cut back, the physical dmg from crit or power would try to fill the gap. To keep up with the same sort of dps they are doing now it might be a good idea to push them towards rampager.

Anyways, all in all, this wouldn’t end up killing those builds or even largely switch up how viable they are, but it’d largely change how you can fight them.
(that’s why I thought this was a great idea worthy of a thread)

Since condi’s won’t be the main and only source of dmg, toughness would give notable mitigation, cleansing wouldn’t be downright necessary to have stacked to have a chance, exc. exc.

No I meant you wouldn’t change any meta builds by making carrion or rabid more important compared to settler’s, because no one uses settler’s. It seemed like you were hoping to see condition builds rely more on the second offensive stat (power or precision from carrion or rabid), which is fine. But it wouldn’t change any meta builds, because they already use those amulets.

There are actually very few power builds in the current meta. Right now those builds are Hambow warrior, s/d thief, p/d thief, and power rifle engineer. Two of these builds (Hambow and s/d) actually aren’t hard burst builds, but rather sustained damage builds that rely on utility (boon strip for s/d and CC for hambow) and soft burst capability to be effective.

An important thing to note is that both S/D and Hambow warriors are being nerfed to the ground next patch. It is likely the meta will stagnate into condition bunkers with the occasional hard burst roamer (Which in my opinion is much worse that what we have now).

Rarnark.5623:

An important thing to note is that both S/D and Hambow warriors are being nerfed to the ground next patch. It is likely the meta will stagnate into condition bunkers with the occasional hard burst roamer (Which in my opinion is much worse that what we have now).

I suppose that’s possible, but very unlikely. I wouldn’t expect condi bunkers to suddenly appear out of nowhere, especially since condition builds are getting hefty nerfs and several cleansing skills are getting buffed. Settler’s ranger will probably continue to be the only condi bunker.

My point is that no one has ever really used a condi bunker yet, so it’s a stretch to assume they’ll suddenly become dominant or to try to nerf them before anyone uses them.

garethh.3518:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Condi should be pressure dmg and Power should be burst-more fast damage…

Period

Clarify?
A difference between the two is cool, a difference is good. Cleansing assures that a difference is there and will be to stay.
But zoning out entire playstyles…
ehh.

It’s not like you can choose to focus on condi dmg or power in the middle of a match so any and all difference in roles doesn’t make depth, if you could, then what you’re saying would make great gameplay, but that’s not really the case.

That just means, (if it’s even your point) if pressure is limited to condi dmg and burst is all power can do, the game will stay with the same stale meta filled with MANY mindnuming specs.

a t s e.9614:

Dude I don’t agree 100% with you

care to talk it out?

Some conditions have secondary effects..Poison, weakness, vuln…Thats what cond should do….A 800 tick burning is crazy.Conditions should be feared not for the dmg but for the debuffs they bring..Thats pressure….A 600-800 ticking burning combined with some stacks of bleed is totally bursting you down

Dardamaniac.1295:

garethh.3518:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Condi should be pressure dmg and Power should be burst-more fast damage…

Period

Clarify?
A difference between the two is cool, a difference is good. Cleansing assures that a difference is there and will be to stay.
But zoning out entire playstyles…
ehh.

It’s not like you can choose to focus on condi dmg or power in the middle of a match so any and all difference in roles doesn’t make depth, if you could, then what you’re saying would make great gameplay, but that’s not really the case.

That just means, (if it’s even your point) if pressure is limited to condi dmg and burst is all power can do, the game will stay with the same stale meta filled with MANY mindnuming specs.

a t s e.9614:

Dude I don’t agree 100% with you

care to talk it out?

Some conditions have secondary effects..Poison, weakness, vuln…Thats what cond should do….A 800 tick burning is crazy.Conditions should be feared not for the dmg but for the debuffs they bring..Thats pressure….A 600-800 ticking burning combined with some stacks of bleed is totally bursting you down

You’re wasting your time with a t s e, that guy’s a troll, look at his post history its nothing but negativity.

In a better game than gw2, we wouldn’t even have statistical differences. The abilities and skills you set on your character completely changes the gameplay and mechanics instead.

If i do more damage than you, its because i am using my skills and mechanics more effectively, not because I’ve minmaxed my damage-increasing statistics.

If i am tankier, it’s because i am actively defending and evading better, not because I’ve stacked more health and armor.

Sure, to make builds interesting we need trade offs, but stat tradeoffs are boring – they make the game hard to balance without making it much deeper or more fun.

This is why the op wants to reduce the extremes of stats to promote more balanced builds. But that’s just half baked band aid solution. A better game wouldnt have stats in the first place. Instead we would have much more interesting traits and skills that can totally change the way the game is played.

Whilst i don’t agree with gw1 having a billion skills, mostly identical and redundant, i do think a lot can be learned from Magic and other card games, in that they have very interesting cards with unique mechanics that interact with each other. (and note that Magic doesn’t have stats either).

Rieselle.5079:

In a better game than gw2, we wouldn’t even have statistical differences. The abilities and skills you set on your character completely changes the gameplay and mechanics instead.

I’m always a bit surprised when I see suggestions like this. It pretty much perfectly describes an action/fighting game, not really anything like an RPG. My initial reaction is that people bought a game in a genre they don’t like and then were surprised to find they didn’t like it, but I’m willing to hear you out. Why do you feel GW2 should have been an action/fighting game rather than an RPG?

Dardamaniac.1295:

Some conditions have secondary effects..Poison, weakness, vuln…Thats what cond should do….A 800 tick burning is crazy.Conditions should be feared not for the dmg but for the debuffs they bring..Thats pressure….A 600-800 ticking burning combined with some stacks of bleed is totally bursting you down

I completely agree.
But a condi-effect overhaul is even less likely than tweaks to two stats so I kinda veared away from it.

Rieselle.5079:

Sure, to make builds interesting we need trade offs, but stat tradeoffs are boring – they make the game hard to balance without making it much deeper or more fun.

This is why the op wants to reduce the extremes of stats to promote more balanced builds. But that’s just half baked band aid solution. A better game wouldnt have stats in the first place. Instead we would have much more interesting traits and skills that can totally change the way the game is played.

Whilst i don’t agree with gw1 having a billion skills, mostly identical and redundant, i do think a lot can be learned from Magic and other card games, in that they have very interesting cards with unique mechanics that interact with each other. (and note that Magic doesn’t have stats either).

If a game had devs that were extremely cognitive.
I’d love that.

But stats are an easy way to cause the appearance of dynamic gameplay.
You have to fight different specs differently or even just see fights play out differently because they have innate strengths/weaknesses based of off easy to balance stats.

The main (and truly only) percs to it are that it is has a decent sized fallowing, it is extremely casual? friendly (people love winning even if it isn’t truly their fault), it’s easy to setup, and commonly known to create at very least, decent gameplay.

Anyways, help for GW2 is help for GW2, tossing stats isn’t even remotaly possible so, as nice as it is in theory, is tragically irrelevant.
What I posted is decently possible and would improve gameplay.
A better game is a better game.

If people weren’t so shy about big changes, losing burning/bleeding or just making them very small damage boosts that slightly scale with power and got rid of conditions and make condis more about utility and “combos” (like + damage on bleeding targets) this game would GREATLY benefit…. I’ve tried to say this over and over and obviously there are those who just enjoy spamming condies and thus; no matter how good it’d be for the game overall, it likely will never happen… :/ Lack of ability to innovate now will surely prevent GW2 from being a great game, while now it’s a good one.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Rieselle.5079:

In a better game than gw2, we wouldn’t even have statistical differences. The abilities and skills you set on your character completely changes the gameplay and mechanics instead.

I’m always a bit surprised when I see suggestions like this. It pretty much perfectly describes an action/fighting game, not really anything like an RPG. My initial reaction is that people bought a game in a genre they don’t like and then were surprised to find they didn’t like it, but I’m willing to hear you out. Why do you feel GW2 should have been an action/fighting game rather than an RPG?

Well, rpgs also have stories, romance, character progression, loot. GW2 pvp has discarded those because common sense suggests those are irrelevant or detrimental to competitive gameplay.

So “its an rpg!” is not sufficient justification for the inclusion of a mechanic. I’ve described a little bit about why statistics are detrimental to a competitive game (and gw2 acknowledges this to a degree – that’s why spvp armour/trinkets are limited how you can combine stats).

For further thought, let’s compare to other successful competitive games. Counterstrike, fighting games, collectible card games, sports games, RTS. None of those games have rpg-style stats. On the flip side, how many rpgs have become respectable competitive games? Very few, if any. (Demons/Dark Souls comes to mind, but they’re not good examples for reasons I’m happy to discuss). Does diablo 2 count as a respectable pvp game? I wasn’t in that community so i don’t know.

Of course, it could be that no one has quite figured out how to make rpg stats a good mechanic for a competitive game, and gw2 is the latest in a long line of noble failures. This is why i phrased my post not as a suggestion for gw2, just a criticism of it.

So that’s my thoughts. If you have justifications for having stats in s competitive game other than, “its an rpg, and rpgs have stats”, then I’d be interested in discussing them.

Rieselle.5079:

snip

Oh certainly. GW2 sought to overturn some RPG conventions. And there are reasons that there are no MMORPG esports, period. What they’re trying to do is completely new.

I just mean that it’s strange to think that it should have no rpg elements at all and would just be a pure action/fighting game. I mean skyhammer is kind of like super smash bros but other than that…

Dardamaniac.1295:

Some conditions have secondary effects..Poison, weakness, vuln…Thats what cond should do….A 800 tick burning is crazy.Conditions should be feared not for the dmg but for the debuffs they bring..Thats pressure….A 600-800 ticking burning combined with some stacks of bleed is totally bursting you down

I completly agree. Conditions should be about utility, not damage. For an attrion mechanic they are labeled, they sure burst you down pretty fast when some classes can mindless spamm them. Imo, they should change those:

- Poison: reduce healing
- Burn: remove boons, does lilttle damage
- Torment: remove it from PVP
- Chill: needs to be more acessible

All the rest is fine. The only damaging conditions should be bleeding and confusion.

@gareth: I might have overreacted a little bit, for that I will apologize, but your post seems no less ridiculous to me now than it did when I wrote my original post. Let me break it down to you:

Conditions:
1) ease of application: there are many ways of applying conditions, most of which are via skills that are on a very short cooldown, require little to no positioning and are quite often AoE. Their application is spread out over many different skills, which, in combination with the aforementioned, makes them much harder to negate in comparison to power damage, which I will go through later.

2) condition builds: are by nature tanky. Most condition amulets are tanky, and those that aren’t, spec partially into power damage as well. Although condition damage builds hardly come close to pure power builds in terms of DPS on paper, they (more often than not) make up for it in terms of ease of application, which in return makes condition builds the better pick for pvp in comparison to power ones. In simple words: condi builds are (in most cases) easier to play, because their way of dealing damage is more reliable in addition to being naturally tankier.

3) Ease of access and class balance: thief, elementalist, mesmer and guardian do not have tournament viable condi specs, yet all of them are on the lower end of natural health pool classes. If they want to deal damage (and still be useful to their team), they have to go berserker amulet, which makes them an easy kill. Engineer does indeed have same HP as mesmer does, but they usually end up tankier thanks to Alchemy traitline. Rangers get extra toughness while going for Empathic bond as well.

4) Damage requirement: to deal good condition damage, you basically only need condition damage as a spec. Precision comes as a secondary stat, but not an absolute requirement (believe me, settler’s necro will be still effective, just not optimal). And condition duration is not obtainable on amulets and is often obtained by traits (a luxury power specs cannot afford).

Power:
1) High burst potential: the one and only advantage that power specs bring is the ability to deal more damage over shorter periods of time. To achieve this, they have to give up on most if not all of their survivability, they have to position themselves and pull off a successful burst combo, which can be mitigated by many more ways than condition damage can (weakness, protection, toughness, dodge/is more effective against power damage because of the nature of it’s application/, block, evade, invulnerability… all of which are vastly more effective against power specs than condition specs).

2) difficulty of application: most burst specs rely on a very specific combo that they have to pull off otherwise they will not deal enough damage (with recent meta even if they do pull off their burst they won’t down their enemy majority of the time). This combo often times consist of one crowd control that locks the target in place and from 3 to 8 (or so) major damage spells that need to connect.

3) survivability (squishiness): other than hambow war and s/d thief, no power based damage build has enough survivability to rival a condition based build. This doesn’t mean that they cannot survive as long, but their defenses are very often active and tied to their damage at the same time (arcane shield, mesmer sword #2 ect.). In short, they have to give up something to survive themselves.

4) Damage requirement: Unless you spec for power, precision and critical damage, you will hardly deal an acceptable amount of damage compared to condition specs. Try comparing shaman necro to clerics guardian. Or valkyrie ele (which used to be the apex spec months ago) to rabid engi. Only when you go berserker on a power build will you deal enough damage to have a chance at downing a condi spec player of equal skill (assuming the skill level is above newbie).

And don’t forget the most important thing: power damage cannot ever equal condition damage. Power specs exist to burst and they are in the game for a reason. Giving them more survivability while taking their damage would not only kill their purpose, but create abominations like s/d thief that are not fun to play or play against. What needs to happen for this game to be balanced is the following change: conditions need to be a lot harder to apply (so their increased survivability would be justified). When it takes the same effort and risk to stack 12 bleeds, burning and poison on a single enemy as it takes for a full glass cannon mesmer to pull off a full successful shatter, then we can talk about further balancing the two.

But there is one thing that must never happen: burst classes must never become the same as condi classes. They need to be riskier, harder and they need to burst people down if they pull off their combos. Only then will the game have a chance of becoming interesting again.

@Silferas.3841

Here, lets start a bit simpler.
I’ll get back to that blarb in a sec.
(it seems really sensible)

What is the point that you think I was making?

if anything this game needs DR on CCs….badly

Cynz.9437:

if anything this game needs DR on CCs….badly

A whole nother issue, but ehh.
The issue with CC’s are when they end with rediculous durationa, there are 2? ways to solve that.

1
Cut down the duration of full CC’s (stun/knockdown) to 1/2->1s at most. That’d stop CC from being more than a 1~ ability setup or interrupt. None-full lockdowns (daze) can be 2~ secs at most, since you can still dodge during them.

2
DR. It’s sloppy and obnoxious, but can be slapped into a patch within a few days.

I direly prefer the first option.
The second, I don’t think CC is in such a bad situation that such a drastic measure is necessary (but that’s just me).
I think immobilize needs more attention than stability based CCs.

IMO the solution to (stunbreakable) CC’s is to have a 1s immunity between application and make only one CC active on you at a time (to keep from being chain CC’d).

As for the meta, the problem has always been AOE condi spamming and Anet’s unwillingness to nerf the primary culprits (Necros/Engies and to a limited extent Rangers). Instead they are buffing anti-condis to counter them, leaving all other lesser condi builds in the dust in this silly arms race. Though the Dec 10 patch seems to be heading in a better direction somewhat.

garethh.3518:

@Silferas.3841

Here, lets start a bit simpler.
I’ll get back to that blarb in a sec.

What is the point that you think I was saying?

You were saying that critical damage scaling needs to be nerfed, because it indirectly forces condition damage to be artificially inflated to keep up with the damage requirements, as well as forces power builds into burst role. None of that is true, and in addition to that your understanding of burst is completely different from what burst means.

Burst is an extremely high amount of damage in an extremely short period of time. Like backstab thief, or shatter mesmer, or dps ele combo. Warrior and s/d thieves don’t do much damage over 2 or 3 seconds, their damage accumulates, which is also usually refered to as sustain damage, and is the only prevalent form of power damage in the current meta. This effectively renders your argument that critical damage forces builds to go burst spec invalid.

Conditions did not get inflated because of power damage. Conditions got inflated because of abundance of passive condition removal (empathetic bond, pure of voice, purity, transmutation on engi ect.) that made them obsolete during the power meta. Prior to June patch, conditions didn’t need any buffs. Passive removals needed a nerf, but it seemed easier to Anet dev team to buff condi specs and look where we are. And so weakness got overbuffed (which effectively brought down power builds while fighting condition builds by a ridiculous margin… I still remember how phantaram couldn’t kill teldo while teldo was only spaming elixir gun 1) out of proportions and a new condition has been introduced to the game in addition to buffs to necro, that’s what inflated conditions and their specs. Necro got 2 new conditions (the biggest culprit) which effectively rendered condi clears that didn’t clear more than several conditions at once obsolete and sub-par.

Another thing that is not acceptable in your post is claiming that conditions need to be able to reach power level of damage. That’s…. I will abstain from further insults. Condition specs are tanky, easier to play and do their damage more reliably in pvp, therefore their damage should NEVER even come close to glass cannon specs. Condi specs were supposed to be attrition, slowly eating away at their opponent’s HP while avoiding damage via their tankiness, weakness application, blinds and positioning and awareness. Any condition build that is capable of downing you in less than 10 seconds even if specced for it, is an abomination that should not exist.

I updated my first post to hopefully help clarify.
I started with the goal and moved down, that might make the steps of my reasoning a bit more clearer.

If I had to pick the single biggest error that Anet made regarding PvP, in any form, it would definitely be conditions. I’m not against the idea of conditions, per se, but they should be based on debuffing rather than a focus on high damage. The ease and frequency to which they can be applied coupled with not needing to focus on Power/Precision/Crit Dmg in order to be effective….plus not being mitigated by toughness is a bad combination.

At this point though I say that ship has sailed and I don’t see much changing. You would have to almost completely overhaul the dynamics of too many classes and require a massive effort on their part. They won’t do it. Instead I can see the typical MMO cycle of buffing and nerfing with FoTM builds continuing till the next new game comes out and everyone hops ship.

This is a great idea. But at the end i think it would still promote a burst meta. In the sense that well-timed team-bursts can take down anyone in a matter of seconds.

That’s why i think along with this kind of huge change you should also normalize the amulets. I’m talking about everyone wearing celestial amulets.

It would pretty much shift the meta from bunker/burst/condi to interrupter/support/DPS/CC/… and allow for a whole new “level” of playing and of coarse introduce build diversity !

As for healing i think healing spells should be reworked so that it heals in function of your HP pool, along with some minor tweaks per profession(high armor classes heal slightly less then low armor classes, big HP pool => big heal over a long period, small HP pool => smaller heals over small periods etc etc).

This would also promote group healing

Smiley.5376:

This is a great idea. But at the end i think it would still promote a burst meta. In the sense that well-timed team-bursts can take down anyone in a matter of seconds.

That’s why i think along with this kind of huge change you should also normalize the amulets. I’m talking about everyone wearing celestial amulets.

It would pretty much shift the meta from bunker/burst/condi to interrupter/support/DPS/CC/… and allow for a whole new “level” of playing and of coarse introduce build diversity !

That’s the goal, but I doubt that a burst dps meta would come about after.
The change to crit dmg, it not scaling with power, is a big hit to burst potential which means you won’t be able to spike people down as easily.
(a good thing imo, burst is a big perc, being able to take off large chuncks of a lifebar quickly is a massive perc in a team’ish game, burst specs shouldn’t also be great at solo’ing)

Normalizing amulets, it could work well, I’m honestly not sure.

Blackjack.2083:

If I had to pick the single biggest error that Anet made regarding PvP, in any form, it would definitely be conditions.

So many people hate GW2’s condi setup.
Yeah, they definitely should have been debuff based, near entirely, that would have made the game play so much better, teamwork might actually exist (if they made blind and weakness better)

@garethh
I’ve gone through several dictionaries (from MMO slang to Oxford) and in every single one Burst as a word was correlated with sudden, unexpected ect. Let’s end the war over words though and concentrate on the important matters at hand. I will give you the privilege of a tie in this matter seeing as you did write what you meant by burst, however amiss that definition might have been.

The condition buffs were major. Not only was there one more condition needing to be cleansed (in necros case 2), but weakness got upped from a minor annoyance to a fight changing debuff. Before it’s buff it used to hinder some of your endurance regeneration and lower only NON critical hits with a certain chance. After the buff it reduces critical damage hits as well, making power builds much weaker in both 1v1 scenarios against condition classes just as well as teamfights, where one well placed spell by a necro could effectively destroy the burst rotation of the opposing team. Power builds therefore became even more unreliable, in most cases actually weaker in comparison, while condition builds got buffed by a large margin (for example incendiary powder got changed to apply longer burning duration rather than shorter one over time AND the proc chance got upped to 100%).

Also, the reason why condition builds got buffed in the first place was not because their damage was not up to par or competitive in comparison to power builds, it was because a single guardian in the middle of the teamfight could negate majority of the condition damage thrown at his teammates just by using his shouts alone. Almost no guardian runs save yourselves anymore, as it equals suicide in the current meta. It was never about conditions not ticking for enough hp/s and needing to be brought up in terms of damage, since such a thing didn’t even happen in the first place. It was always about condition removal and it’s about the same thing even now.

You also talk about “middle of the line” specs. There are two of them now. One is the apex predator hambow warrior, that has tankiness, sustain, control, area damage and direct damage. It does everything well and therefore excels in all kinds of pvp, from duels to large teamfights. The other spec that is the jack of all trades is valkyrie ele, possibly not even played by any1 in this game anymore. It didn’t get changed very much at all, just a few changes to signet of restoration, and how it worked with evasive arcana and nobody is playing it anymore, because it doesn’t do anything well enough anymore. This is the stigma of balanced builds, you either make them too strong, or you make them useless. Also, forcing people to play a more “middle of the line” spec by nerfing direct burst specs (nobody would play burst if they couldn’t actually kill people yet still be squishy one shots for anyone on the opposing team, NOBODY would do that) would only result in more condi prevalence, seeing as condi builds are “middle of the line” in terms of tankiness/damage by nature and as I said before, easier to play and more effective as well (the only thing keeping warrior and s/d thief viable are insane regen + massive cc and spammable evades respectively). What you are suggesting is basically making everyone play specs that are similar to condi specs, just harder to play and less effective.

And now to the root of the problem: you apparently want the game to slow down in terms of ttk (time to kill) of a player, but that’s pure madness in my opinion. Have you seen how long it takes to kill players in any other competitive game out there (LoL, CS, Dota2, ect.)? It’s seconds, much faster than here in gw2. Fights between skilled players here can already take over a minute. If you made the fights any longer the game would become unbearably boring. The only way such a thing could be sufferable would be if downed state was removed from pvp, which would effectively kill off 50% of all teamwork (the other 50% being coordinated damage and point rotations), or downright removing all of the healing skills (which would require rebalancing on a whole different scale).

And one more thing: burst specs less effective at dueling? I am starting to get the feeling you must be a big fan of conditions because everything you are suggesting would blow them out of proportions so much it wouldn’t even be funny. There should be burst specs that specialize in 1v1s just as much as there should be condi specs that do so. Don’t kill off variety in a game just because you don’t like something.

AD celestial only in pvp: it could be a nice start but it would require ridiculous amounts of rebalancing of traits on classes. Just take engi and necro: Necro can access his condition damage traitline without any issues, as it is even favorable for him to do so in many cases. Engi goes as deep as 10 trait points at most in majority of his condi builds, quite often it is 0. To make this change truly meaningful, damage traits would have to be moved into damage traitlines which would be very specialized. However if this did happen, it’d be a good change

Omg can’t see previous posts… bugged forum ^^