Ele stacking officially seen as an exploit ?
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ele could still run d/f for might stacking, but they wouldnt be able to reach such a high number. there bam some build diversity. im betting cele staff would come back too.
removal of ring of fire fixes the problem of d/d being able to stack crazy burns and the problem of d/d being able to maintain 20+ might. d/d stays tough, it just looses damage. sure the build is gutted, but remember what happened to cele engi? yeah.
The only time Ring of Fire stacks crazy burns is when it’s used against people with incredibly poor environmental awareness. 3 stacks? I can understand that. 6? Less understandable, but I suppose if you ran straight through trying to catch the ele. Anymore than that and you’re basically jumping off a cliff then complaining that fall damage is too strong. You’d basically make D/D a weapon set with 4 blast finishers but not a single combo field across all the attunements. The end goal of balancing shouldn’t be to “gut” things, it should be to fix them and bring them in line.
devs always choose to gut engineer, can’t see why ele should receive special treatment.
the condis from RoF have never bothered me, but they seem to kill a lot of people on the forum, which was my experience with turret engineers. my issue is that ele can maintain 20+ might. d/d becomes finisher heavy so it’s good at blasting in coordinated teamfights. peopen have to use d/f if they want blasts are the fire field.
I thought the brutal, merciless nerf to turrets was the final nerf engies would get. Nerf is an understatement, they pretty much killed the turret build. So many people complained about it without fully understanding its weaknesses – poor mobility, no defense outside turrets, poor condition cleansing… They were far easier to kill than the current d/d ele.
The turret nerf was then followed by the bigger – overall trait, condition scaling nerf last June.
I very much dislike d/d eles but even they don’t deserve the needless gutting engineers suffered and endured this year.
Devs should do the right thing and buff engies.
The Turret Engie was an abomination in the fact that you could have 2 players with almost no experience, one with a Turret build and one with a number of other builds, and the Turret Engie could AFK kill the other. Sure at the top tier it didn’t matter as much, but at lower tiers it was unkillable. Scrubs matter, too.
Everyone who had experience knew Turret Engie’s weaknesses. The weaknesses were far less important than you give them credit for, mobility was particularly a poor argument. I remember the “just out rotate them” arguments that instsntly failed as soon as you had two Turret Engies on the same team. Poor defense may be so, but you could take the tankiest amulet and runes and your turrets would do the same damage as a glass cannon Turret build. Conditions worked, but pre-patch conditions weren’t nearly as lethal as they are now and kills took a long time considering how much damage they could output.
The tankiest amulet couldn’t protect them from conditions. I’ve countered tureteers with the rabid p/p and cele rifle engies, shatter Mesmer, condi trap ranger, staff ele….
It was also a known fact that turreteers owned d/d eles. I think most of the complaints were made by them. Makes me dislike d/d eles even more….You didn’t contradict anything I said, so I guess what I said still stands.
The entire context my comment was agreeing with choovanski about how devs gutted the engineer starting with the turreteer build then its entire trait system.
I main a necro but the 2 kit engie pre-patch was my favorite.
That was a hard conclusion to come to considering how much of what I quoted was about Turret Engies… And then your response was about Turret Engies.
I think they need some buffs, but not to Turrets. Engies are easily one of the most fun classes.
Alright meow, where were we?
Drop down one Well of Corruption and all eles are dead in seconds MUahahahah ! >:D
Drop down one Well of Corruption and all eles are dead in seconds MUahahahah ! >:D
Nah, not really. They either evade most of the hits, or step out for its duration…
This is not to deny the psychological AoE denial of wells in general, but it’s not particularly useful for killing eles.
ele is a minor problem, but class stacking is major
Really? Since when do tournament players win by stacking any class besides elementalist?
ele could still run d/f for might stacking, but they wouldnt be able to reach such a high number. there bam some build diversity. im betting cele staff would come back too.
removal of ring of fire fixes the problem of d/d being able to stack crazy burns and the problem of d/d being able to maintain 20+ might. d/d stays tough, it just looses damage. sure the build is gutted, but remember what happened to cele engi? yeah.
The only time Ring of Fire stacks crazy burns is when it’s used against people with incredibly poor environmental awareness. 3 stacks? I can understand that. 6? Less understandable, but I suppose if you ran straight through trying to catch the ele. Anymore than that and you’re basically jumping off a cliff then complaining that fall damage is too strong. You’d basically make D/D a weapon set with 4 blast finishers but not a single combo field across all the attunements. The end goal of balancing shouldn’t be to “gut” things, it should be to fix them and bring them in line.
devs always choose to gut engineer, can’t see why ele should receive special treatment.
the condis from RoF have never bothered me, but they seem to kill a lot of people on the forum, which was my experience with turret engineers. my issue is that ele can maintain 20+ might. d/d becomes finisher heavy so it’s good at blasting in coordinated teamfights. peopen have to use d/f if they want blasts are the fire field.
As someone who plays both ele and engi(engi more than ele of late) I really would rather classes not be needlessly gutted just to provide a band-aid fix to make whiners happy. Ring of Fire literally will do no damage to someone who knows how to move in and out of it, or even just someone who knows to dodge out of it. Taking it away would make D/D the only ele weaponset without access to any sort of combo field. If that’s fine, why not remove Napalm from Flamethrower Kit because Flame Blast is already a short cd blast finisher(just to be clear, I do not in any way want this, just to make a point).
Fixing a very strong spec is fine. Attempting to gut it into uselessness is not.
Last I checked, RoF is bugged such that dodging through it still gives 6 burning stacks. This is lack of counterplay. On top of that, have you ever seen 2 or 3 eles throw it down on the same capture point? You have zero chance of avoiding it all, and trying means that you eat a fire grab or two.
Drop down one Well of Corruption and all eles are dead in seconds MUahahahah ! >:D
or step out for its duration…
Against a necro inside their fire field in the middle of a capture point ? Very few eles ever step away. Then they /say “What was that?” And I “Muahahaha” long time.
Maybe 3 or 4 power necros in north america use wells in pvp so its always a surprise. Won a dozen unranked/ranked in a row today just by doing that. Lich 5 on guardians is also instant death since they are really not used to having their boons taken away.
Drop down one Well of Corruption and all eles are dead in seconds MUahahahah ! >:D
Haha cool joke.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
Hai guys we here the complaint but we are so so busy on our journey to the heart of thorn, so for now we say no 4 ele. We jus dont have time to figure out how2 make just one burn on circle of burns, or just one might on can trips for now no 4 ele. kthxbye
(edited by Spurrlock.3219)
So this is what happened behind the scenes.
A team of 4 eles won a ESL tournament.
Balance team: Oh man. This is not good. We might actually have to release a balance update. I don’t want to balance!
Forum: hahahahah balance team. You have no clue what is happening in game.
Balance team: I don’t want to do my job! What can we prevent that?
Forum: buff ele, buff ele. hahaha balance team.
Balance team: I have it! We will ask ESL to outlaw 4 eles. This way it isn’t as obvious that our balance is broken.
ESL: Ok. We will implement the new rule. As a bonus we will also not allow rune of vampirism for eles. You won’t need to fix that either
Balance team: High fives all around guys! Crisis averted. Back to watching videos on youtube.
Balance team: I don’t want to do my job! What can we prevent that?
That’s what the team responsible for balancing engies said
Mini Unagi – Iuther – Iiq – Trend – lancaster
Drop down one Well of Corruption and all eles are dead in seconds MUahahahah ! >:D
The pesky trouble making eles in my tier would either – burning flash out of the wells towards you, LF or RTL.
Mini Unagi – Iuther – Iiq – Trend – lancaster
Soooo now the problem is being sidestepped, well done ANET>
Guild Wars 2 will NEVER be an Esport if ArenaNet ignore their own rules. Let alone let bugs be a problem.
Weapon stowing exploit has been a issue for nearly a year now. Why not disable the hotkey option in PvP? Because, abusing a bug is clearly Esports.
It’s also a bit unfair to jab anet in this context. Other moba games don’t allow you to stack classes either.
Because some skills are stronger than others and some skills have functionalities so unique it’s not just this class brings an apple, this class brings an apple and we get 2 apples. Some times this class brings an apple, then this class brings a pony, then the other class brings a sandwich. How do you compare 2 apples to 2 ponies or 2 sandwiches? Say, you’re comparing might stacking with timewarp stacking. It’s not comparable at all. What are you gonna do, reduce timewarp duration by half so the 5 mes team won’t have a whole minute of quickness?
That’s why when the class stacks, the effectiveness ramps up dramatically. It’s a fundamental flaw of the game design. Not just GW2 but pvp gaming wise. Honestly, for serious match like that, I think they should impose a rule where only 1 of each class can be in the team. That’s the only way to fix the problem without creating another whole mess of individual class balancing vs. collective class balancing.
Lol @eura
You people asking for amulet/might nerfs must be either trying to defend your class (eles), or you are just really stupid.
Both the amulet and might have already been nerfed, taking both engi and warrior out of the meta, yet ele is still top of the totem pole.
Your class has too much of everything, accept it!
Remove heals, mobility, and blast finishers, and we might actually have a balanced ele.
John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
just replace ring of fire with another skill. it will gut d/d’s damage while leaving the sustain.
This is what I call “removal of the problem out of existence” , your suggestion got nothing to do with balance, it’s just a selfish request that no sane dev would ever take in consideration.
The d/d set is a mele set and by general game design, the mele sets do the most damage, you as opponent must still learn how to bloody dodge and counter, what must be done is to make the damage more easy to counter, not remove it!
A competitive gaming environment is where you as player start thinking about your next tactic whenever the enemy is approaching on whichever class, so we don’t remove damage from ele so that you start laughing whenever an ele try to engage you!
Ring of Fire has a direct damage and condi component, you want to make the condi component more easy to avoid/negate; you can increase CD of ring of fire, you can reduce the number of burn stacks or change them to burning pulse; or whatever sensible suggestion come to your mind.
Behind every profession, there is a person and that person spent as much time as you in game on average, everyone should have an equal shot at victory regardless of what they play
Balance = equal playing ground it’s not a matter of opinion whether you like it or not! It should not be that profession A beats always profession B, because there is just this much you can do on profession B thx to nerfs.
If you want this kind of game, do not play a MMO, go play a RPG where you can use -Godmode-
The ele must be balanced yes..but not for your sake but rather for the sake of those players using the class
Except guess what? Warrior melee is WAY better in design just because it has clear counterplay and it has real casting times. Hell even Thief melee is better designed too because they can get bursted just as hard. Ele melee takes no skill because tankiness escapes and blind spam, therefore it is unhealthy for the game at it’s current state. If Ele didn’t do 6k firegrabs on d/d cele, then EVERYTHING would be fine.
You put ring of fire and they stand in the circle? If they don’t dodge then they take a drake’s breath. They dodge drake’s breath? They eat burning speed. Those skills are WAY TOO EASY to land for the amount of base damage and burning that they do. Oh and while this is happening? I’m tanking two people while I do so because blinding ashes and evade on burning speed.
Now name me a “melee bruiser” that can do the same amount of damage while being able to deal with a 1v2 with ease.
The last thing I’d expect to read on a MMO forum is a player considering “skilled” something that killed them, one of the fundamental laws of MMO, existed since the dawn of MMOrpg:
What kills me takes no skill and I lose only because the enemy using a broken spec as I’m the best player in the universe
Do you want me to believe that your typical forum warrior would stop whining on the forums once the object of his whining get deleted?
Logic dictate that the typical forum warrior would switch to the next thing that kills them which in this case would be condi mesmers, after that maybe engi….after that taunt rangers? lol….it never stops because….what kills me is OP and must be nerfed
The laws of MMO never fail
(edited by Supreme.3164)
I started skimming the posts after it devolved into a petty argument, but I’m not sure someone explained this.
There’s a particular reason why it is the celestial amulet is so strong on the elementalistt, but not so much on other classes. The elementalist is one of two classes that can really take advantage of all of the bonuses it gives. A class has to have both good condition damage and direct damage in its build, while also using copious amounts of healing outside of the heal skill. There’s only two classes that do this: Engineer, and Elementalist.
As to whether this is the amulets fault or not… it isn’t. Logic it out: if the amulet stays the same, but on different classes it doesn’t cause a problem, then it isn’t the amulet. The celestial amulet working well with the elementalist isn’t much different from marauder or berserker working well on the thief.
I’m afraid my expertise ends there. I haven’t PVPed in awhile, and so my experience on why the D/D ele in particular is overpowered is very limited.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
It’s not an amulet problem or everyone would use it. It’s the class.
It is an amulet problem.
It gives so much more in stats, now this is offset by the theory that no one benefits fully from all these spread around stats.
But then comes along a profession build that does benefit from all the stats, and as a result gets 966 extra stats that it can use perfectly fine. Thats almost 60% more stats.And if what you say is true and only ele’s use this amulet, than nerfing the amulet will nerf ele’s by almost 1000stat points. Without nerfing Ele builds that are not build around using Celestial.
Nerfing Ele across the board to be balanced with +1k stats will just force every ele to be builds for Celestial.The theory isn’t “people won’t benefit from all stats”, the “theory” is they’d be jack of all trades. And they are. Anyone who uses celestial are a bit tankier than glass, but not as tanky as a full-bunk. Deal more damage than bunkers but not as much as a glass. That’s ALWAYS true, Celestial Elementalist are just too strong at a base level, which makes this “jack of all trades” a very safe and powerful option.
Part of this is due to how strong scaling is on burning and their application, some of it is due to their amazing boon power, etc. But at a very basic level, no other class defies exactly what I said. They’re a balanced jack of all trades fighter. Elementalist are simply outliers due to a mix of personal mechanics.
Unfortunately for Ele, they’re a light armored class and are required to have at least a little vitality or toughness to not be one-shot, but beyond the super-squishies, you see similar things done with Crusader builds, which are another example of a some-what jack of all trades (except conditions), that use builds to fill in their weak-spots. It’s never an issue, except in the case of Cele Ele.
You said yourself that putting Celestial on a Thief does nothing, and this is true for about every build out there.
Ele and Engi are different. Because they are limited in weapons and choice they get weapons that in a way scale with power and condition. You know, so you can run a condition d/d ele or a power d/d ele to prevent making the choice of gamestyle even more limited.
Normally this isn’t a problem, and it wasn’t untill the Celestial amulet was introduced. Ever since it was people have been complaining about Cele Ele’s and Cele Engi’s, and this was long before the trait overhaul and condition overhaul.
A profession build that was not that good at all suddenly became good and drew the ire of many players just as the celestial amulet was introduced? It couldn’t be more obvious. Everytime someone complains about Ele it’s a Cele Ele. I don’t see people complain about berserker d/d ele, or rampager d/d ele, nope always cele ele.
And im telling you just as i told people a year ago that the problem is the Celestial amulet. The ideas people have to fix this will only hurt Ele’s in general as well as the builds that are not overpowered, and coincidentally don’t run Cele amulet. But nerf the Cele amulet and you very specifically hit that one build people have been complaining about since Celestial amulet became a thing in pvp, without destroying alternate build choices
I started skimming the posts after it devolved into a petty argument, but I’m not sure someone explained this.
There’s a particular reason why it is the celestial amulet is so strong on the elementalistt, but not so much on other classes. The elementalist is one of two classes that can really take advantage of all of the bonuses it gives. A class has to have both good condition damage and direct damage in its build, while also using copious amounts of healing outside of the heal skill. There’s only two classes that do this: Engineer, and Elementalist.
As to whether this is the amulets fault or not… it isn’t. Logic it out: if the amulet stays the same, but on different classes it doesn’t cause a problem, then it isn’t the amulet. The celestial amulet working well with the elementalist isn’t much different from marauder or berserker working well on the thief.
I’m afraid my expertise ends there. I haven’t PVPed in awhile, and so my experience on why the D/D ele in particular is overpowered is very limited.
What he says, Ele is a jack of all trades and the Cele amulet is a jack of stats. The two go together like peanut butter and jelly. Engi used to have the Cele rifle, but it’s sustain got blown out of the water by Anet. And Necros can only make use of it now because they can also stack might pretty reliably, and can turn all the Condi damage that eles and guardians throw out with burn back at them and just laugh. They’re Tanky with Deathshroud, but they don’t have the mobility, stability, and sustain ele’s have, and most of that, in fact all of that comes from the ele’s boonoutput, and ele’s have ample access to protection.
A knight in shining armor is a man who never had his metal truly tested.
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