Guild Wars 2

-It’s always been ridiculous that we have Attunement swap cool downs, large cool downs on our weapon skills, AND that our weapon skills on an individual basis are weaker than those of other professions. Two of these three I can understand. But all three?
-With Cele amulet being further nerfed, and Shoutbow being buffed, D/D WILL fall out of meta.
-It sucks that our profession mechanic, but not that of any other class, is affected by Chill. I don’t care that we get decent access to cleanses. Necros have excellent access to condi cleanses, and Death Shroud isn’t affected by Chill.
-Selfish EA should definitely be baseline. EA GM trait should extend the effect to allies and increase the radius. On a similar token, radius on our healing skills and traits needs to be increased if we are to have a hope of competing with Shoutbow warriors for the support role.
-Losing trait line stats is scary; currently, I run a build with 4 in Water for the increased health since I don’t use a +Vitality amulet. Am I supposed to run around with ~10k health? I’m not convinced that Anet is going to compensate me effectively for the loss of health.
-It sucks having no decent, powerful Elite skills. Oh and FGS skill 4 damage is still bugged (does less than half of the tooltip damage.)
-Fresh Air, our one (kinda) variable burst spec, has been neutered. Where does that leave the clunky Scepter?
-With LH and FB being nerfed, say goodbye to any reason to equip a Conjure, ever. These skills will never be used seriously again, besides FGS for mobility.
-Aquatic Benevolence is forced onto all eles in a line that now has most of our DPS traits, despite AB providing NO benefit whatsoever to the ele.
-Arcane Precision, Zephyr’s Speed and Soothing Winds are abominations of traits.

I fully expect Tempest to be a colossal disappointment; with this track record, what do we have to look forward to?

Guys remember the preview, it’s more alone the lines of, “is this possible” than “this is our ideas.”

_

Lets not jump to conclusions, ArenaNet had learned their lesson with Dhuumfire and Stunbug, let us enjoy the fact every class has a good build this meta and have faith ArenaNet knows what they are doing.

Besides, they are reading the forums, I stated before I saw several of my own trait suggestions in the preview :P
Sadly, none of my suggestions about the Elementalist made it but whatever, one small step I guess >:(
Anyone for Fire Magic? No? What about Earth? Still no? Is air magic fun yet? Oh my no…

They know that listening to players is a good idea, considering a lot of us has played longer on our favorite classes than they’ve been working at ArenaNet.

Supreme.3164:

Golden post of the year!

Pls stop suggesting that.It doesnt solve the issue at all.
Its always the same thing with this game..A class can be super op in the sense that it is irreplaceable to every team but everybody will say nothing for years .
But when a class gets strong in the form of good self sustain everybody posts 10 nerf threads per day here..
Selfish elemental attunement will just bring more tears and wont do kitten for the support part.You ll have an “unkillable” ele again that all solo players,wvw players,hot join heroes cry all day while teams couldnt care less about replacing it when the nerfs inevitably come cause there are better options in tfs.

Could have not say better, put EA back where it was…and in the new system you can expect many soloQ-heroes to come here crying all day…every day…until ele get nerfed even harsher

I disagree, and here is why:

By making ele low health + low armor with no innate defense, poor defensive weapon skills on long CD’s, and utilities with ungodly long CD’s, they created a class that, without traits already has 1 foot in grave. Baseline, it is weak to conditions (low health) and physical damage (low toughness). Because the class is such a fragile little bird, they have to give some incredibly strong defensive mechanics so that it can play in the big leagues. Eles have access to lots of boons, heals, and cleanses from traits. This creates a problem, b/c it becomes a 1v1 beast when it goes full-hog into defense. The problem is compounded when nearly all of the self-survival traits automatically integrate group-support. If the ele wants to survive on his own, he naturally does well helping his team-mates. There is nothing to give up, and he is FORCED into this situation b/c he doesn’t want to be babysat.

So how do we go about fixing the problem: give the ele some inherent self-defense tools through its profession mechanics so that its not a baby-bird that needs to build into a full-tank just to play in the big-leagues. A good example of this would be making elemental attunement baseline for the ele only, at reduced duration. Now, they have SOME active defense capabilities built into the class. Next, they can increase the self-survival capabilities through skills/utilities (by decreasing the unreasonable cooldowns many have), while also reducing the self-survival of some of the traits (especially the self-healing). Finally, make selfish traits and support traits separate (this should be true for all classes, otherwise predominate specs like shoutbow pop up that just do too much).

At the very core of the problem is that the ele is too weak baseline, forcing them to give OP defense options to survive. When all those OP options are stacked into one spec, you get something that nobody wants: a boring sustain-bot that just tanks you to death.

BlackBeard.2873:

By making ele low health + low armor with no innate defense, poor defensive weapon skills on long CD’s, and utilities with ungodly long CD’s, they created a class that, without traits already has 1 foot in grave. Baseline, it is weak to conditions (low health) and physical damage (low toughness). Because the class is such a fragile little bird, they have to give some incredibly strong defensive mechanics so that it can play in the big leagues. Eles have access to lots of boons, heals, and cleanses from traits. This creates a problem, b/c it becomes a 1v1 beast when it goes full-hog into defense. The problem is compounded when nearly all of the self-survival traits automatically integrate group-support. If the ele wants to survive on his own, he naturally does well helping his team-mates. There is nothing to give up, and he is FORCED into this situation b/c he doesn’t want to be babysat.

So how do we go about fixing the problem: give the ele some inherent self-defense tools through its profession mechanics so that its not a baby-bird that needs to build into a full-tank just to play in the big-leagues. A good example of this would be making elemental attunement baseline for the ele only, at reduced duration. Now, they have SOME active defense capabilities built into the class. Next, they can increase the self-survival capabilities through skills/utilities (by decreasing the unreasonable cooldowns many have), while also reducing the self-survival of some of the traits (especially the self-healing). Finally, make selfish traits and support traits separate (this should be true for all classes, otherwise predominate specs like shoutbow pop up that just do too much).

At the very core of the problem is that the ele is too weak baseline, forcing them to give OP defense options to survive. When all those OP options are stacked into one spec, you get something that nobody wants: a boring sustain-bot that just tanks you to death.

Very well put.

Cynz.9437:

Jasher.6580:

Cynz.9437:

kervv.8542:

@cynz, both of the teams that you mentioned runs a thief.

not always… they have won games w/o thief/mesmer; zuik/honey can confirm

They have… but their main roster includes Thieves.

doesn’t change the fact that they have won tourneys w/o thief

and that doesn’t change the fact that they are too strong for team play

BlackBeard.2873:

Supreme.3164:

Golden post of the year!

Pls stop suggesting that.It doesnt solve the issue at all.
Its always the same thing with this game..A class can be super op in the sense that it is irreplaceable to every team but everybody will say nothing for years .
But when a class gets strong in the form of good self sustain everybody posts 10 nerf threads per day here..
Selfish elemental attunement will just bring more tears and wont do kitten for the support part.You ll have an “unkillable” ele again that all solo players,wvw players,hot join heroes cry all day while teams couldnt care less about replacing it when the nerfs inevitably come cause there are better options in tfs.

Could have not say better, put EA back where it was…and in the new system you can expect many soloQ-heroes to come here crying all day…every day…until ele get nerfed even harsher

I disagree, and here is why:

By making ele low health + low armor with no innate defense, poor defensive weapon skills on long CD’s, and utilities with ungodly long CD’s, they created a class that, without traits already has 1 foot in grave. Baseline, it is weak to conditions (low health) and physical damage (low toughness). Because the class is such a fragile little bird, they have to give some incredibly strong defensive mechanics so that it can play in the big leagues. Eles have access to lots of boons, heals, and cleanses from traits. This creates a problem, b/c it becomes a 1v1 beast when it goes full-hog into defense. The problem is compounded when nearly all of the self-survival traits automatically integrate group-support. If the ele wants to survive on his own, he naturally does well helping his team-mates. There is nothing to give up, and he is FORCED into this situation b/c he doesn’t want to be babysat.

So how do we go about fixing the problem: give the ele some inherent self-defense tools through its profession mechanics so that its not a baby-bird that needs to build into a full-tank just to play in the big-leagues. A good example of this would be making elemental attunement baseline for the ele only, at reduced duration. Now, they have SOME active defense capabilities built into the class. Next, they can increase the self-survival capabilities through skills/utilities (by decreasing the unreasonable cooldowns many have), while also reducing the self-survival of some of the traits (especially the self-healing). Finally, make selfish traits and support traits separate (this should be true for all classes, otherwise predominate specs like shoutbow pop up that just do too much).

At the very core of the problem is that the ele is too weak baseline, forcing them to give OP defense options to survive. When all those OP options are stacked into one spec, you get something that nobody wants: a boring sustain-bot that just tanks you to death.

You need to remove the 20 skills mechanics,for as long as it is in place nothing will ever change. The ele is a victim of “What if” balance philosophy, nothing to be done at this point, only solution would be to start from scratch..something I’m, afraid won’t happen.

You should remember what @Jon Peters said on the ele forum just before the 10Dec2013 patch.

“We know that you’d like us to just increase ele HP, but we need to maintain class identity, reason why we can provide eles with powerful defensive tools[aka=must have traits to be play the class at all]”

It was something along these lines but you get the idea.

They know what ele community wants, people have been asking for active defenses, fair CD on skills, decent elites for ages…even before launch, people were already asking for changes…nothing ever happened so don’t hold your breath.

The change to EA would at the very least allow eles to have a more fair distribution of good traits among all trait lines, possible better utilities outside cantrips and so on.

+1

I’m not only concerned at how ele will be lacking in support and self-sustain… but even without celestial amulet these traits were required because the class lacks in base defense. Without the stats tied to trait lines there is no longer a large defensive increase in water attunement so the situation would be a lot worse than previously. It would be essential to go into arcana for defensive capabilities.

If this change goes through then the class is completely unviable in any sense in the absence of celestial amulet, which is already taking a hit. Tbh considering how cantrips are the defensive tool and are already being utilised, the elite specialisation is not going to fix this… there is really no reason to take an ele over the new improved engi.

As long as eles remain better players, they wont get any buff/overhaul.

Elementalists are already starting to be phased out in favor of some of the other meta professions. These changes would certainly hurt Elementalists from what we can see. I do not think Anet really knows what direction they want to take Elementalist in with the future patch, which could require months to years of complaining before they become viable again.

In just 2 days, we have a lot of answer and more than 90% are going in favor of the idea of this thread.

Now if I remember the READY UP stream that showed up the new systems and all the changes I clearly heard someone from ANET saying something like “these changes are not 100%, keep posting your feedback on the forum we’ll listen to the community blablablabla”

I now would like to see you on that thread Mr Anet.

Thanks

@Blackbeard
At the very core of the problem is that the ele is too weak baseline, forcing them to give OP defense options to survive. When all those OP options are stacked into one spec, you get something that nobody wants: a boring sustain-bot that just tanks you to death.

A baseline EA even if reduced in quality would still prove to be far too strong.
The future d/d ele will still be a very strong tank..but not boring to fight as now, people will most likely use stone heart, there already you’ll see a clear distinction between bad and good eles; add the possible removal of evasive arcana from meat d/d and you have a fairly strong tank that can’t be taken down quite efficiently if played badly.

As @Avead rightly pointed out, we need to give less room to talk to all QQers, the removal of this powerful combo: EA+Evasive will prove to be beneficial to eles in terms of possible build diversity.

For me stone heart and the 10s base attunement CD is more than enough to deal with thieves/med guardian/mesmer….I’m more than happy already

What should be baseline is Lingering Attunements but changed to “share minor of the attunement to all allies in a 360 radius”; ofc we’d need a better fire and air minor adept in that case.

In the end EA as baseline or master would increase ele sustain too much in my opinion, even a reduced version of EA is not good and personally I’d remove also the frost aura on soothing wave, far too strong for an adept minor.

If you like me prefer active defense to passive…then we need to cut out on ele access to protection, after that we can add skillful active defenses that don’t have prohibitive CD

Suprah.5076:

In just 2 days, we have a lot of answer and more than 90% are going in favor of the idea of this thread.

Now if I remember the READY UP stream that showed up the new systems and all the changes I clearly heard someone from ANET saying something like “these changes are not 100%, keep posting your feedback on the forum we’ll listen to the community blablablabla”

I now would like to see you on that thread Mr Anet.

Thanks

Guess I’m part of that 10% that disagree with you.

I have already explained why; personally I’d like to play something that resemble the ele from GW1…the current GW2 meta ele is nothing more than a prot monk with few flashy attacks

I’d like to play something a little bit more offensive oriented that doesn’t get persecuted by thieves/mesmer and med guardians,….something that doesn’t need to be babysitted basically.

In the end EA moved to GM= increased build diversity brought up by buffs in other lines, my 2 cents.

Supreme.3164:

Suprah.5076:

In just 2 days, we have a lot of answer and more than 90% are going in favor of the idea of this thread.

Now if I remember the READY UP stream that showed up the new systems and all the changes I clearly heard someone from ANET saying something like “these changes are not 100%, keep posting your feedback on the forum we’ll listen to the community blablablabla”

I now would like to see you on that thread Mr Anet.

Thanks

Guess I’m part of that 10% that disagree with you.

I have already explained why; personally I’d like to play something that resemble the ele from GW1…the current GW2 meta ele is nothing more than a prot monk with few flashy attacks

I’d like to play something a little bit more offensive oriented that doesn’t get persecuted by thieves/mesmer and med guardians,….something that doesn’t need to be babysitted basically.

In the end EA moved to GM= increased build diversity brought up by buffs in other lines, my 2 cents.

Do you realize the fact that dd won’t be viable anymore doesn’t mean there will be some new spec viable? What happened the last time they overnerfed ele? That’s right, no one played it for a year.

+1 laraley, overnerf d/d doesn’t mean other builds suddenly will be viable. Look at Fresh Air, it is also got destroyed in HoT too. With conjure nerfed, fresh air nerfed, d/d will be the go to weapon again for ele in pvp (if there are still die hard fans staying with the class)

Laraley.7695:

Do you realize the fact that dd won’t be viable anymore doesn’t mean there will be some new spec viable? What happened the last time they overnerfed ele? That’s right, no one played it for a year.

It’s like there is a double standard.: every class has OP stuff except the ele: Ranger pewpew, Ranger MoA, Thieves backstab, etc Then you get to the Ele and suddendly Anet is super worried that somewhere we can do some damage slightly high, even after ALL the MANY nerfs. Ele staff damage is ridiculously low on # 1 skills for example, they could buff them by 50% and nobody would even notice beside for the Fire attunement.

Xillllix.3485:

Laraley.7695:

Do you realize the fact that dd won’t be viable anymore doesn’t mean there will be some new spec viable? What happened the last time they overnerfed ele? That’s right, no one played it for a year.

It’s like there is a double standard.: every class has OP stuff except the ele: Ranger pewpew, Ranger MoA, Thieves backstab, etc Then you get to the Ele and suddendly Anet is super worried that somewhere we can do some damage slightly high, even after ALL the MANY nerfs. Ele staff damage is ridiculously low on # 1 skills for example, they could buff them by 50% and nobody would even notice beside for the Fire attunement.

True. And look at scepter auto attack. It can’t even kill an afk warrior with Healing Signet in 5 minutes.

Ele needs changes yes, made several threads asking to buff underused utilities and elites( well actually we haven’t got an elite to start with), but to say that ele will be over-nerfed because of EA moved to GM?!…no at all.

Eles will gain access to stone heart, a more skill oriented defense mechanism ( and personally far better) than passive protection/cantrip spamm, I’d remove even frost aura from soothing wave.

No, eles won’t disappear from pvp at all, the role will simply change.

And where people see fresh air nerfed? Do you realize that they’ll increase stats of all amulet?.

Going by what we’ve seen in yesterday stream when the med guardian was using a carrion amulet and displaying a 21k HP bar, it’s safe to assume that amulets will be increased by a lot , at least the current stats.

Right now a fresh air has just a little over 2k power, that power level will go up after the changes, the addition will more than make up for the loss of bolt to the heart, if not all at least very close..but what more is that fresh air will gain in sustain.

Thx for the removal of EA from master line, eles got geomancer defense for example, i’ll take it 100 times faster over EA, so…

Supreme.3164:

Eles will gain access to stone heart, a more skill oriented defense mechanism ( and personally far better) than passive protection/cantrip spamm, I’d remove even frost aura from soothing wave.

No, eles won’t disappear from pvp at all, the role will simply change.

First off, Stone Heart is not a well designed trait. Like diamond skin, the concept of pure immunity needs to go.

Secondly, answer me this:

• What is the current role of Elementalists in PvP and what will the role change too?

Stone heart may make it tanky, it will not make it a good build. A selfish but tanky build =/= to a support build. There has never been a true tank build be viable in this game because there is no incentive for enemies to kill a tank first when they can kill all the useful members on the team then kill the tank 4v1. There have been tanky support builds yes, but they actually support allies with boons and cleanses, all of which are going to be lost in exchange for selfish tankyness which will kill the build, leaving eles with nothing but a not really viable troll build like pu mesmer.

Supreme.3164:

Ele needs changes yes, made several threads asking to buff underused utilities and elites( well actually we haven’t got an elite to start with), but to say that ele will be over-nerfed because of EA moved to GM?!…no at all.

Eles will gain access to stone heart, a more skill oriented defense mechanism ( and personally far better) than passive protection/cantrip spamm, I’d remove even frost aura from soothing wave.

No, eles won’t disappear from pvp at all, the role will simply change.

And where people see fresh air nerfed? Do you realize that they’ll increase stats of all amulet?.

Going by what we’ve seen in yesterday stream when the med guardian was using a carrion amulet and displaying a 21k HP bar, it’s safe to assume that amulets will be increased by a lot , at least the current stats.

Right now a fresh air has just a little over 2k power, that power level will go up after the changes, the addition will more than make up for the loss of bolt to the heart, if not all at least very close..but what more is that fresh air will gain in sustain.

Thx for the removal of EA from master line, eles got geomancer defense for example, i’ll take it 100 times faster over EA, so…

You don’t understand what the removal of EA brings at all. The problem is not self survability of a dd ele, even though that will be questionable, too. The problem is the fact it will become just a selfish build and there will be no reason to take it over a shoutbow. The radius of all heals is too small, losing either of EA will push the ele to being a tanky point holder while the original idea was to be a semi-tanky character with lots of team support.

Also, the survability they’re adding is badly designed. Stone heart will lock you in one attunement, which completely goes against what the elementalist profession is supposed to be. Diamond skin is either bad or too good, there is no middle ground just from the nature of the trait. Geomancer’s defense could be okay, but again it promotes passive play and it’s rather situational, staff ele won’t be able to benefit from it that much. The whole buff to auras doesn’t create any interesting skillful build that people will take over heavy support classes like shoutbow.

The removal of damage modifiers is not good for fresh air ele, even though amulets will be buffed it doesn’t change the fact that mesmers and thieves got so many buffs, fresh air won’t be able to put out so much sustained dps or team utility. Also, the whole build is just a bad design. Too many skills are instant without any counterplay to it and scepter skills are not in a very good state.

The argument ‘’But amulets get buffed’’ shouldn’t even be here. Ele has the lowest armour and hp, it needs powerful defensive skills to survive. The fact all classes will benefit from amulets buff doesn’t mean ele won’t need a bit more to stay in the competitive scene. The removal of EA was bad, it is crucial for the class, period. Mesmers got many and many traits as baseline, thieves will be able to take both panic strike and executioner. There will be a massive powercreep and one Geomancer’s defense won’t stop it.

Eternya, I think that supreme has just been trolling. If not, if you have a walk in the elementalist official thread you can understand for yourself that all your points are complete bull kitten. (well not all those you’ve been posting on the page n#2.)

i said this multiple times already, i don’t mind if they make a spec unviable as long as they give us a new viable spec that can compete on the highest level. i like my class so i don’t want to reroll obviously.

if they can make a new spec viable then i have no concerns, if they can’t then anet shouldn’t even dare touching d/d ele.

@Supreme
When i said i really don’t want a selfish elemental attunement i meant that it is just another thing that increases self sustain while does nothing for the group even if there will be a gm trait that makes it shared.And with stoneheart and an earth,water,arcana build we will have enough sustain already.
I strongly disagree with the removal of EA/EvA combo as well as most people here cause it kills support and pure tanks are not welcome in this mode.Basically d/d will be killed off as a team role even if it can survive indefinately in 1vs1 the way i see it.It cant even decap and takes too long to kill especially after the next in line nerfs to the amulet and probably to burning (when not used in burn stacking build)
Plus there is absolutely no fun playing tanky builds unless there is a skill cap that comes from supporting allies else its boredom and very little room for imporovement.
Basically the only reason i ever thought d/d wasnt brainless was that..without that it is truly brainless and probably not effective enough

Avead.5760:

@Supreme
When i said i really don’t want a selfish elemental attunement i meant that it is just another thing that increases self sustain while does nothing for the group even if there will be a gm trait that makes it shared.And with stoneheart and an earth,water,arcana build we will have enough sustain already.
I strongly disagree with the removal of EA/EvA combo as well as most people here cause it kills support and pure tanks are not welcome in this mode.Basically d/d will be killed off as a team role even if it can survive indefinately in 1vs1 the way i see it.It cant even decap and takes too long to kill especially after the next in line nerfs to the amulet and probably to burning (when not used in burn stacking build)
Plus there is absolutely no fun playing tanky builds unless there is a skill cap that comes from supporting allies else its boredom and very little room for imporovement.
Basically the only reason i ever thought d/d wasnt brainless was that..without that it is truly brainless and probably not effective enough

I don’t think people get the clear picture of the situation.

The d/d build right now is the brainless one, all the goodies..all in one package, no reason to play anything else…no chance to improve anything else

Right now there is no reason to get a fresh air ele over a d/d, the latter wins 1vs1, support teams and it’s hard to to kill in general, why take a fresh air ele over a d/d?

Now another question : How could have they have improved fresh air ,or any offensive oriented ele, while having d/d as it is now?

Simply increasing the sustain and dmg would not cut it, that solution would have simply allowed an offensive ele to overtake mesmer, thieves and med guardian in the burst role….we can’t have it, can we?

The best solution was to remove that “all in one package” playstyle, what this means is that for the first time in 3 years, ele players (some ele players, those who always wanted to play a real ele as it was in GW1 and not some glorified healbot) have finally the chance to take the fire line in consideration; because the arcana line has been made “not necessary”. [reduced CD on attunement swap, FTW]

So now you can still play tanky role…but will the team care? If not then you can still go the support role route, only now you will lose some of that tankiness, so you won’t be as effective in duels as now; or if the team allows it, you have a fresh air ele, that respect to now it won’t require as much babisitting.
The main problem of the build : sustain; has been addressed, by how much, that’s a personal opinion and all for the loss of “some” dmg…big deal, ele not supposed to overtake any specific role by design anyway

If people want to play support role that badly, then be happy, they’re buffing Powerful aura, if you want to excel in 1vs1 you will have to take different traits..I’m afraid and if you want dmg, again you need to change and don’t worry this time you won’t be an easy kill for thieve/mesmers and med guardians.

The reality is that eles will have to choose what to play, not more all in package.

But wait, let’s all remember something: ele needs a defining attribute mechanic, this is an unquestionable truth, eles should have not have to trait to gain any advantage from swapping attunements, people are free to look for any post where I say otherwise

Another aspect to take in consideration is : what should be this attribute?
Sorry to say this guys and girls, but elemental attunement is far too strong to be considered as baseline, even a reduced version

Possibly elemental contingency should be baseline after removing the “on hit” aspect, changing it to “on attunement swap”. There is even lingering attunements ( we’d need to change fire and air adept minor) to be considered as baseline.

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

Ele needs changes yes, made several threads asking to buff underused utilities and elites( well actually we haven’t got an elite to start with), but to say that ele will be over-nerfed because of EA moved to GM?!…no at all.

Eles will gain access to stone heart, a more skill oriented defense mechanism ( and personally far better) than passive protection/cantrip spamm, I’d remove even frost aura from soothing wave.

No, eles won’t disappear from pvp at all, the role will simply change.

And where people see fresh air nerfed? Do you realize that they’ll increase stats of all amulet?.

Going by what we’ve seen in yesterday stream when the med guardian was using a carrion amulet and displaying a 21k HP bar, it’s safe to assume that amulets will be increased by a lot , at least the current stats.

Right now a fresh air has just a little over 2k power, that power level will go up after the changes, the addition will more than make up for the loss of bolt to the heart, if not all at least very close..but what more is that fresh air will gain in sustain.

Thx for the removal of EA from master line, eles got geomancer defense for example, i’ll take it 100 times faster over EA, so…

You don’t understand what the removal of EA brings at all. The problem is not self survability of a dd ele, even though that will be questionable, too. The problem is the fact it will become just a selfish build and there will be no reason to take it over a shoutbow. The radius of all heals is too small, losing either of EA will push the ele to being a tanky point holder while the original idea was to be a semi-tanky character with lots of team support.

Also, the survability they’re adding is badly designed. Stone heart will lock you in one attunement, which completely goes against what the elementalist profession is supposed to be. Diamond skin is either bad or too good, there is no middle ground just from the nature of the trait. Geomancer’s defense could be okay, but again it promotes passive play and it’s rather situational, staff ele won’t be able to benefit from it that much. The whole buff to auras doesn’t create any interesting skillful build that people will take over heavy support classes like shoutbow.

The removal of damage modifiers is not good for fresh air ele, even though amulets will be buffed it doesn’t change the fact that mesmers and thieves got so many buffs, fresh air won’t be able to put out so much sustained dps or team utility. Also, the whole build is just a bad design. Too many skills are instant without any counterplay to it and scepter skills are not in a very good state.

The argument ‘’But amulets get buffed’’ shouldn’t even be here. Ele has the lowest armour and hp, it needs powerful defensive skills to survive. The fact all classes will benefit from amulets buff doesn’t mean ele won’t need a bit more to stay in the competitive scene. The removal of EA was bad, it is crucial for the class, period. Mesmers got many and many traits as baseline, thieves will be able to take both panic strike and executioner. There will be a massive powercreep and one Geomancer’s defense won’t stop it.

-Stone heart does not lock you in one attunement, it gives the chance to nullify an incoming burst, for how long you will sit in earth..well that depends on your understanding of the game and the opponent you’re facing…but in general only a clueless ele player would sit in earth thinking he’ll survive forever.
By contrast right now, an ele can keep perma protection up and that’s far far less skill intensive.

-Fresh air is an offensive oriented ele, a build that can still pack some form of team support…..mesmers and thieves don’t have that, you can’t possibly expect to churn out as much dmg as they.The problem of fresh air has always been the sustain..and that has been taken care off…at least in my book

-What diamond skin got to do with this discussion? Everybody agree that is a bad trait and I suggested changes myself so don’t know what you’re on about

Well first of all i dont think powerfull aura is that good support even if they buff it cause it ll lack condi clear but i reserve that after i see whether or not you ll be able to stack infinite amounts of frost auras through ice fields,sharing and water adept

Second of all and most important.Just because they nerf the viable choice that doesnt mean they free eles from arcana dependance. Or you consider everything sucking on equal footing means everything is balanced..too bad there are more classes than ele in this game and those wont suck
All the other improvements par aurashare in all the other trait that are worth mentioning in my eyes are upgrades in self sustain for taking away arcana from ele..If the current dd cant keep up with the meta when his sustain is shareable why do you think the new dd with non shareable sustain will have any chance being taken?

Also i should mention im talking about dagger/dagger only here..Although i still dont see how fresh air is gonna be good enough to be taken either and of course i have no clue what tempest will bring.

I start to believe that eles have a masochistic mechanic after all… most of the benefits are for getting hit… let’s forget hp, armor, clones, stealth, a spank is enough.

I think we just pay the price for having 20 weapon skills.

Supreme.3164:

By contrast right now, an ele can keep perma protection up and that’s far far less skill intensive.

true but i still think being aware enough to save the lives of your teammates with that protection is far more skillfull that having to take the binary choice
im being bursted →swap to earth
which is already present in the current playstyle..

From a game design standpoint, Anet is doing the right thing by not allowing evasive arcana and elemental attunement at the same time. I do not care how much you guys say that “ele needs it”- they don’t. Period. They need Alternatives. And hopefully they will add just that. I do think, however that diamond skin and stone heart are badly designed traits, diamond skin at the very least. These (and other lines’ GMs) could probably be changed to something more fitting.

I will personally probably run 6/6/0/0/6 fresh air s/f with
Burning precision- pyromancer’s training – blinding ashes
One with air (lol that buff)- X (not sure yet) – Fresh air
Renewing Stamina- Elemental contingency (probably) – Elemental attunement

Since fresh air builds crit so often this provides blinds every 3- 4 seconds and super speed approaching 50% uptime in a fight (due to fresh air).

I think that the elementalist community is the real problem, once we have something that works good and it’s getting nerfed we approve the nerf (supreme) instead of standing against it. “Eh but so people are forced to work on other builds”, without even realizing that if the elementalist community stuck with d/d is right because there is no other choice that keeps the same level of the other classes. Please Supreme you have compared the shoutbow and the d/d. Shoutbow is stronger, more supportive, more defensive, more tanky, the supportive radius is waaay larger. Warrior will be even stronger. Elementalist is getting the only supportive (with way less radius) nerfed, not that I liked the heals that I put on my friends attuning to water, dodging in water or using 5. We have a longer cooldown for something that’s less supportive compared to the others. Now almost every class is getting buffed in every way possible doing what has been doing even better. So again you can see that the problem doesn’t begin with arena net. The problem is the community.

Oh and also people still suggest builds that can’t work now not not in future ^^.

Avead.5760:

Well first of all i dont think powerfull aura is that good support even if they buff it cause it ll lack condi clear but i reserve that after i see whether or not you ll be able to stack infinite amounts of frost auras through ice fields,sharing and water adept

Second of all and most important.Just because they nerf the viable choice that doesnt mean they free eles from arcana dependance. Or you consider everything sucking on equal footing means everything is balanced..too bad there are more classes than ele in this game and those wont suck
All the other improvements par aurashare in all the other trait that are worth mentioning in my eyes are upgrades in self sustain for taking away arcana from ele..If the current dd cant keep up with the meta when his sustain is shareable why do you think the new dd with non shareable sustain will have any chance being taken?

Also i should mention im talking about dagger/dagger only here..Although i still dont see how fresh air is gonna be good enough to be taken either and of course i have no clue what tempest will bring.

Removing EA is far from an overnerf, people are so hung up on this trait because of perma protection, something that would have proved to be too strong in combination with earth traits and evasive arcana.

The outrage caused by this change is incredible …and useless as it got nothing to do with the real problem eles have : lack of a mechanic defining benefit.

People should be discussing about real problems like : lack of worthwhile elites, usable glyphs and conjure[ like seriously the glyphs is the most underused utility in the whole freaking game]

Already explained why the current ele is an “all in one package” build the removal of which won’t cause the ele to disappear, on the contrary it’ll allow the creation of a base for future beneficial changes

Also said that fresh offers something different respect to thief, mesmer or some other burst spec, if people think that fresh air ele should be taken only if it’s better than the rest..well sorry that will never happen guys and already explained why fresh air won’t overtake other burst specs, but now it’ll be a viable option, people should convince themselves of this, no other way around

if it will be viable will be up to the meta and how it can compete with other beserk builds. there are many strong builds in the game that are not viable for pvp.

dont forget that fresh air has no boon removal, aoe stealth, ring of warding, strong elite or portal so it is overshadowed by other builds.

it’s all up to tempest now and how/if they rework some of the current skills and how the ele builds will compete against the others.

—>>People should be discussing about real problems like : lack of worthwhile elites, usable glyphs and conjure[ like seriously the glyphs is the most underused utility in the whole freaking game]<—

People always complained of those points, but like I said every time there are people that go against so again the battle stays in the community and doesn’t really touch arena net.

—>fresh air won’t overtake other burst specs, but now it’ll be a viable option, people should convince themselves of this, no other way around<—

Lel no.

Quadox.7834:

From a game design standpoint, Anet is doing the right thing by not allowing evasive arcana and elemental attunement at the same time. I do not care how much you guys say that “ele needs it”- they don’t. Period. They need Alternatives. And hopefully they will add just that. I do think, however that diamond skin and stone heart are badly designed traits, diamond skin at the very least. These (and other lines’ GMs) could probably be changed to something more fitting.

I will personally probably run 6/6/0/0/6 fresh air s/f with
Burning precision- pyromancer’s training – blinding ashes
One with air (lol that buff)- X (not sure yet) – Fresh air
Renewing Stamina- Elemental contingency (probably) – Elemental attunement

Since fresh air builds crit so often this provides blinds every 3- 4 seconds and super speed approaching 50% uptime in a fight (due to fresh air).

No condi clear,no heal,11k hp ,too much protection when you should really be afraid of condies (not only the damaging ones) in exchange of a single target blind that you cant control here and there every 4 sec.
You can run something similar right now but with the actuall opness that is evasive arcana and elem attunement together so you have some condi clear and extra heal every 10 sec and more damage due to the damage modifiers in air.
Try it and tell me how it goes,and IF it didnt go that well tell me how an extra 2 fire traits/quickness for the loss of damage and evasive arcana will make it better

The fact that every ele is playing the same traits since the dawn of time up to the competitive level makes me thing that not being able to go fire and air together is not an l2p issue..that or all eles ever tried this game sucked
Maybe an extra fire aura and some protection from direct damage in earth will fix the melting to burst and to conditions..or maybe tempest will bring stealth.

Jekkt.6045:

if it will be viable will be up to the meta and how it can compete with other beserk builds. there are many strong builds in the game that are not viable for pvp.

dont forget that fresh air has no boon removal, aoe stealth, ring of warding, strong elite or portal so it is overshadowed by other builds.

it’s all up to tempest now and how/if they rework some of the current skills and how the ele builds will compete against the others.

The future fresh air will be able to offer rock solid, cleansing or something else compared to the rest of burst build. Right now attunement CD reduction is necessary to play ele at all, so I’m an arcana slave, but that finally will change.

The problem of strong anti stealth tools remains I’m afraid. We’ll have to hope in tempest , maybe we’ll get something that will address the problem of perma stealth trolls..one can only hope.

Boon removal is not necessary on ele, truly not, if eles get something, not matter how small, just something that can deal effectively with stealth, then the viability of fresh air will increase by lot, even more than what will be with the changes

you dont need rock solid or cleanses when you have a dps guard, f2 cleanses and f3 is 3 stacks of stab while rock solid is one lousy stack.

give arcane wave reveal on hit and all thieves will cry^^^^^^

Supreme.3164:

Already explained why the current ele is an “all in one package” build the removal of which won’t cause the ele to disappear, on the contrary it’ll allow the creation of a base for future beneficial changes

Also said that fresh offers something different respect to thief, mesmer or some other burst spec, if people think that fresh air ele should be taken only if it’s better than the rest..well sorry that will never happen guys and already explained why fresh air won’t overtake other burst specs, but now it’ll be a viable option, people should convince themselves of this, no other way around

The way you put it then yea..we agree ele should be built differently than currently.But do you honestly think this is a good change because in the far future they will be able to fix the class without making it broken op? with their rate of changes? maybe in the 2nd expansion and if..

Also what exactly he future fresh air build is gonna bring to the table that thief or mesmer cant top by a mile? Mobility?burst and sustain damage?aoe stealth
All the ele innate support (which untraited isnt that good anyway ) becomes irrelevant when its gonna be compared with skills like shadow refuge, portal,moa etc
I just dont see it man .. im not really active or competitive with the game and i probably gonna play when xpac comes and tempest for the fun of something new .
I just cant see how it will be viable in any way based on what they announced so far.
(and you haven’t convinced me yet :P)

Supreme.3164:

-Stone heart does not lock you in one attunement, it gives the chance to nullify an incoming burst, for how long you will sit in earth..well that depends on your understanding of the game and the opponent you’re facing…but in general only a clueless ele player would sit in earth thinking he’ll survive forever.
By contrast right now, an ele can keep perma protection up and that’s far far less skill intensive.

-Fresh air is an offensive oriented ele, a build that can still pack some form of team support…..mesmers and thieves don’t have that, you can’t possibly expect to churn out as much dmg as they.The problem of fresh air has always been the sustain..and that has been taken care off…at least in my book

-What diamond skin got to do with this discussion? Everybody agree that is a bad trait and I suggested changes myself so don’t know what you’re on about

How is managing your boons less effective than having Geomancer’s defense and Stone heart? It’s really not. Since ele loses quite important survability trait along with having the lowest hp and armour to prevent an incoming burst, you will have to go to earth. And you will have to stay there for the duration of being focused. It goes against the way ele was played, that’s pretty clear. No one says you will have to be in earth 100% of time.

What Diamond skin has to do with the discussion is the fact is another GM trait in Earth people might take over Stone Heart.

The fact mesmers and thieves don’t give out that little team support ele has doesn’t mean anything.

What mesmers have over ele: Strong boon hate, on demand interrupts, low cooldown immobilize, moa, portal, stealth.
What thieves have over fresh air ele: Boon hate, on demand interrupt, insane mobility, Aoe stealth, Blinds, Immobilize. Fresh air won’t suddenly become viable as long as these classes are still in game or fresh air gets these team utilites. And you saying that fresh air ele offers an alternative is completely irrelevant, because it’s a worse alternative.

Avead.5760:

Quadox.7834:

From a game design standpoint, Anet is doing the right thing by not allowing evasive arcana and elemental attunement at the same time. I do not care how much you guys say that “ele needs it”- they don’t. Period. They need Alternatives. And hopefully they will add just that. I do think, however that diamond skin and stone heart are badly designed traits, diamond skin at the very least. These (and other lines’ GMs) could probably be changed to something more fitting.

I will personally probably run 6/6/0/0/6 fresh air s/f with
Burning precision- pyromancer’s training – blinding ashes
One with air (lol that buff)- X (not sure yet) – Fresh air
Renewing Stamina- Elemental contingency (probably) – Elemental attunement

Since fresh air builds crit so often this provides blinds every 3- 4 seconds and super speed approaching 50% uptime in a fight (due to fresh air).

No condi clear,no heal,11k hp ,too much protection when you should really be afraid of condies (not only the damaging ones) in exchange of a single target blind that you cant control here and there every 4 sec.
You can run something similar right now but with the actuall opness that is evasive arcana and elem attunement together so you have some condi clear and extra heal every 10 sec and more damage due to the damage modifiers in air.
Try it and tell me how it goes,and IF it didnt go that well tell me how an extra 2 fire traits/quickness for the loss of damage and evasive arcana will make it better

The fact that every ele is playing the same traits since the dawn of time up to the competitive level makes me thing that not being able to go fire and air together is not an l2p issue..that or all eles ever tried this game sucked
Maybe an extra fire aura and some protection from direct damage in earth will fix the melting to burst and to conditions..or maybe tempest will bring stealth.

During this Friday stream, you could see the guardian running around with 21k HP while using carrion amulet, right now the amulet on guardian with 20 pts in honour will give a total HP of 19k

In the new system there will no vitality from trait lines so :

current carrion amulet : 650 vit + guardian with no pts in honour = 17k HP

Now add 80 pts to base vitality: guardian base HP 11k HP

Add carrion amulet with 200 pts added to vit (announced change to amulet) and you get a guardian with 21k HP using a carrion amulet.

I assume that all amulets using vit as sec or prim stat will receive same treatment, this means that an ele will have over 16k HP using a zerker amulet for example, which I think will be used in his 6/6/0/0/6 build, whether or not it’ll be a good build, that’s up to debate ( well for me it’s not as I’ll try 0/6/6/6/0 or 6/6/0/6/0 or just 0/6/0/6/6)

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

-Stone heart does not lock you in one attunement, it gives the chance to nullify an incoming burst, for how long you will sit in earth..well that depends on your understanding of the game and the opponent you’re facing…but in general only a clueless ele player would sit in earth thinking he’ll survive forever.
By contrast right now, an ele can keep perma protection up and that’s far far less skill intensive.

-Fresh air is an offensive oriented ele, a build that can still pack some form of team support…..mesmers and thieves don’t have that, you can’t possibly expect to churn out as much dmg as they.The problem of fresh air has always been the sustain..and that has been taken care off…at least in my book

-What diamond skin got to do with this discussion? Everybody agree that is a bad trait and I suggested changes myself so don’t know what you’re on about

How is managing your boons less effective than having Geomancer’s defense and Stone heart? It’s really not. Since ele loses quite important survability trait along with having the lowest hp and armour to prevent an incoming burst, you will have to go to earth. And you will have to stay there for the duration of being focused. It goes against the way ele was played, that’s pretty clear. No one says you will have to be in earth 100% of time.

What Diamond skin has to do with the discussion is the fact is another GM trait in Earth people might take over Stone Heart.

The fact mesmers and thieves don’t give out that little team support ele has doesn’t mean anything.

What mesmers have over ele: Strong boon hate, on demand interrupts, low cooldown immobilize, moa, portal, stealth.
What thieves have over fresh air ele: Boon hate, on demand interrupt, insane mobility, Aoe stealth, Blinds, Immobilize. Fresh air won’t suddenly become viable as long as these classes are still in game or fresh air gets these team utilites. And you saying that fresh air ele offers an alternative is completely irrelevant, because it’s a worse alternative.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of profession choice for a team, by opening different roles for each profession, you allow teams to pick the “best” choice depending on their playstyle.

A team may well decide to run with 3 burst and decide to go for thief, mesmer and fresh air ele that still offer some resemblance of support, have thieves/mesmers got : soothing mist? healing ripple? aquatic benevolence? aoe regen( trident)? and much more depending on your fresh air build?

If all choices would do the same thing..there would no alternative, just the same thing but with different skin…don’t know how people can’t understand this

And managing boons? To remind yourself to swap to earth once in while to maintain the perma protection , requires no management.

The thing about stone heart is that it’s there to give you a window of escape, don’t hope for even one second that you can sit in earth while being focused, you’ll get killed in no time, the trait stop crits on you…it doesn’t stop dmg!.

Yes! if you get focused and you’re out of position, even with stone heart you will die! And that how it should be; right now a d/d ele can just keep perma protection, swap to water and keep going…that’s stupid.

We all know that thief can get out of hand with stealth and perma dodges, but that it’s being addresses, thieves will require a successful dodge to get vigor from feline grace, guardians are getting reveal traps and I think more will be added to the game to counter super cheesy and boring playstyle like perma dodge/stealth thieves.

But all this is not reason to allow things like : perma protection, perma vigor.
The ele community should be asking for improvements on active defense, while keeping a similar level of efficiency respect to other profession, like “don’t bring a knife to a gun a fight”…but also “don’t bring a rocket launcher to a gun fight”

We can’t possibly ask for improvements when we rely on passive defenses, we have no room to defend our arguments.

Before the announcement , people were asking to remove EA or nerf protection upkeep and I was strongly against the idea because no compensation was being offered, but the situation has changed and that compensation that you like or not…it has been given, so perma protection and vigor, have no reason to stay..whether you like it or not

Supreme.3164:

I think you misunderstand the meaning of profession choice for a team, by opening different roles for each profession, you allow teams to pick the “best” choice depending on their playstyle.

A team may well decide to run with 3 burst and decide to go for thief, mesmer and fresh air ele that still offer some resemblance of support, have thieves/mesmers got : soothing mist? healing ripple? aquatic benevolence? aoe regen( trident)? and much more depending on your fresh air build?

If all choices would do the same thing..there would no alternative, just the same thing but with different skin…don’t know how people can’t understand this

And managing boons? To remind yourself to swap to earth once in while to maintain the perma protection , requires no management.

The thing about stone heart is that it’s there to give you a window of escape, don’t hope for even one second that you can sit in earth while being focused, you’ll get killed in no time, the trait stop crits on you…it doesn’t stop dmg!.

Yes! if you get focused and you’re out of position, even with stone heart you will die! And that how it should be; right now a d/d ele can just keep perma protection, swap to water and keep going…that’s stupid.

We all know that thief can get out of hand with stealth and perma dodges, but that it’s being addresses, thieves will require a successful dodge to get vigor from feline grace, guardians are getting reveal traps and I think more will be added to the game to counter super cheesy and boring playstyle like perma dodge/stealth thieves.

But all this is not reason to allow things like : perma protection, perma vigor.
The ele community should be asking for improvements on active defense, while keeping a similar level of efficiency respect to other profession, like “don’t bring a knife to a gun a fight”…but also “don’t bring a rocket launcher to a gun fight”

We can’t possibly ask for improvements when we rely on passive defenses, we have no room to defend our arguments.

Before the announcement , people were asking to remove EA or nerf protection upkeep and I was strongly against the idea because no compensation was being offered, but the situation has changed and that compensation that you like or not…it has been given, so perma protection and vigor, have no reason to stay..whether you like it or not

Teams have the option to take 3 burst specs now and include fresh air, no one does it because even power necros offers more. ‘’Much more’’ is basically nothing, fresh air has hardly any team support due to low healing power compared to shoutbow and honestly AB on a dps spec is just bad.

Yeah, I think that’s all dd ele players wish for. A few second time window to escape as a grandmaster trait. Bascially, the truth is Stone heart and Geomancer’s defense are bad alternatives to having both EA’s. I’m gonna say this one more time, maybe you will realize that the reason why dd ele will be pushed out of meta is that ele will gain selfish survability while losing team support and won’t be worth taken over shoutbow.

Yea, thieves are getting one nerf but gains much more from the changes. What does ele gain? Passive selfish survability, passive selfish auras unless traited…that will require so much skills. I hope you’re not calling the classic dp builds ‘’cheesy perma stealth’’.

If it doesn’t matter what the community thinks than the same thing will happen like before. People will stop playing ele. Then I might not even care and reroll completely.

Laraley.7695:

-snip-

But..you’re not losing Elemental Attunement, it’s simply being moved to GM from master,if you want to play support, you’ll still be free to do…so no problem there

In truth people are hung up on the fact that ele will lose the EA+Evasive combo, I think people fail to realize that this combo would have been too powerful in the upcoming system, so it has been removed.

Power necro is chosen over fresh air, because the latter can be more easily neutralized…even by a d/d ele, which instead can have troubles against power necros. The problem again is sustain, self-sustain which force teams to spend resource babysitting the fresh air, no team want to do so.

That sustain is coming, whether you can see it or not, it’s another matter.

Eles receive no inherent benefit from using the attunement mechanic, suggestions should be given to fix this problem, to put EA as baseline is not a fix, it’s powercreep.

-Lingering attunements
-Elemental contigengy

Both should become baseline with the opportune changes ofc like : EC working on attunement swap and not on hit, LA with an improved version of air and fire adepts, that would now affect even allies in a 360 radius.

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

-snip-

But..you’re not losing Elemental Attunement, it’s simply being moved to GM from master,if you want to play support, you’ll still be free to do…so no problem there

In truth people are hung up on the fact that ele will lose the EA+Evasive combo, I think people fail to realize that this combo would have been too powerful in the upcoming system, so it has been removed.

Power necro is chosen over fresh air, because the latter can be more easily neutralized…even by a d/d ele, which instead can have troubles against power necros. The problem again is sustain, self-sustain which force teams to spend resource babysitting the fresh air, no team want to do so.

That sustain is coming, whether you can see it or not, it’s another matter.

Eles receive no inherent benefit from using the attunement mechanic, suggestions should be given to fix this problem, to put EA as baseline is not a fix, it’s powercreep.

-Lingering attunements
-Elemental contigengy

Both should become baseline with the opportune changes ofc like : EC working on attunement swap and not on hit, LA with an improved version of air and fire adepts, that would now affect even allies in a 360 radius.

Okay, let’s try it differently. Elemental attunement is a good treait for support. Evasive arcana is a good trait for support, too. Geomancer’s defense and Stone heart are not. Now, d/d ele will be losing one of the EA’s and gaining those selfish traits. Due to this, dd ele will have less support.

So having both EA’s is too powerfull, but:

Having Illusuionary persona, Illusionary Elasticity, Phantasm damage boost as a baseline isn’t?

Having Executioner + Panic strike + possibly whole SA/Acrobatics and trickery trees, Panic Strike + Improvisation + whole SA/Acrobatics and trickery trees isnt?

I don’t agree about dd ele having issues with a power necro.

Sustain wasn’t the problem for fresh air but rather depending on long cooldowns to survive and not being able to bring as much utility as thief or mesmer.

You either didn’t watch the changes to other classes properly or refuse to realize how things really are.

how about we make it easy…

elemental attunement – master trait – grant boons to allies around you in a 480radius when you attune to an element.

a way better nerf than what mr carl did.

And do you realize that is too much support for a spec that deal more dmg than a shoutbow specced for support?

Do you realize that ele was designed to be a mix of everything and not good at anything?

You will have support but not much too support as now, you will have dmg just not as much dmg as mesmer and thieves. This is the reality whether or not you want to accept it.

There are two approaches to balance :

A- you redesign the ele , deleting the absurd 20 skills mechanic

B- you normalize ele with what they have now and respect to the other professions

I think B is the approach anet is taking, whether you or me like it….doesn’t matter, accept it or change class , it’s simple. Given the fact that I accepted this reality, I’ll use my energy to propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design, not according to people who expect ele fresh air to become a pseudo thief of any sort

you’re mistaken if you think d/d ele deals more damage than a shoutbow and shoutbow has also more support.

Supreme.3164:

And do you realize that is too much support for a spec that deal more dmg than a shoutbow specced for support?

Do you realize that ele was designed to be a mix of everything and not good at anything?

You will have support but not much too support as now, you will have dmg just not as much dmg as mesmer and thieves. This is the reality whether or not you want to accept it.

There are two approaches to balance :

A- you redesign the ele , deleting the absurd 20 skills mechanic

B- you normalize ele with what they have now and respect to the other professions

I think B is the approach anet is taking, whether you or me like it….doesn’t matter, accept it or change class , it’s simple. Given the fact that I accepted this reality, I’ll use my energy to propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design, not according to people who expect ele fresh air to become a pseudo thief of any sort

People are already taking shoutbows over dd ele, after the patch it will be an easy decision. Ele is far from having too much team support. I don’t understand what you’re fighting for. People in this thread actually want to make the class good, you just want fresh air to be viable (and it really won’t unless tempest is very good) and don’t care about people who wants to play something different or don’t have the choice.

The reality is the way it is just because of people like you. People who do not understand the class or have naive ideas of what changes might bring. But enjoy yourself, I think I’m done having a discussion with someone who doesn’t care about the class being actually good and effective.

Jekkt.6045:

how about we make it easy…

elemental attunement – master trait – grant boons to allies around you in a 480radius when you attune to an element.

a way better nerf than what mr carl did.

Then you apply : soothing mist, then healing ripple, then Evasive arcana…it all become too much, support oriented ele should offer something else outside boon spamming.
There are already plenty of support options on ele in the new system :aquatic benevolence, soothing mist and healing ripple, rock solid[should be buffed to give 2 stacks of stab at least] and can still have EA or evasive arcana

so what, this is what makes the support on ele viable, d/d is a support build wether you like it or not.

stop suggesting useless stuff when you have no idea how to play d/d ele in the current meta on the highest level because this is not getting us anywhere. d/d ele was totally fine compared to other meta specs so there is no kitten reason to nerf it, and if it really has to be then nerf it for the ele and not for his allies.