Guild Wars 2

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

And do you realize that is too much support for a spec that deal more dmg than a shoutbow specced for support?

Do you realize that ele was designed to be a mix of everything and not good at anything?

You will have support but not much too support as now, you will have dmg just not as much dmg as mesmer and thieves. This is the reality whether or not you want to accept it.

There are two approaches to balance :

A- you redesign the ele , deleting the absurd 20 skills mechanic

B- you normalize ele with what they have now and respect to the other professions

I think B is the approach anet is taking, whether you or me like it….doesn’t matter, accept it or change class , it’s simple. Given the fact that I accepted this reality, I’ll use my energy to propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design, not according to people who expect ele fresh air to become a pseudo thief of any sort

People are already taking shoutbows over dd ele, after the patch it will be an easy decision. Ele is far from having too much team support. I don’t understand what you’re fighting for. People in this thread actually want to make the class good, you just want fresh air to be viable (and it really won’t unless tempest is very good) and don’t care about people who wants to play something different or don’t have the choice.

The reality is the way it is just because of people like you. People who do not understand the class or have naive ideas of what changes might bring. But enjoy yourself, I think I’m done having a discussion with someone who doesn’t care about the class being actually good and effective.

Shoutbow is not replacing d/d ele….it’s the ele that has no other option so it’s falling out of meta, with the ability of covering different roles the ele would not fall out of meta at all, but simply it won’t be a necessity for every team, that’s what balance means!

And I have said d/d ele offer too much support for the dmg and tankiness it has, if you don’t remove one of the three than ele will never see the light of a balanced future, it will always be considered OP by the masses..and it will have always horrendous elites, utilities as a consequence

You people don’t understand that without sacrifice there is no progress, you can’t expect the devs to give even more powerful traits in other lines so that we have option to chose something else that’s not 0/0/2/6/6….that’s ridiculous!

Fact is that the tanky d/d ele playstyle will remain and that’s great! But now you won’t be able to ace in every field while using the same build, that should have not be allowed since launch

Let me tell you what ele should be:
A hybrid class capable of BRIEFLY swap between roles while focusing on a given aspect of a team

Like have a tank ele focused on holding pts while still be able to be a menace for roaming burst spec, sort of anti-roamer/duellist

Or a fresh air ele focused on burst but still able to temporarily hold a point before the real point holder comes, till able to focus targets during team fights, got the dmg for that

A bit of everything, while being focused on something and still not able to excel at anything, that’s what ele should be…not a single build that tank, hold pts, wins 1vs1 and support team better than specialized builds…it make no sense.

This only brings hate from the community and lack of positive changes to the class, all because people can’t accept the reality of what things should really be

If you can’t understand this…then yeah discussion over

Jekkt.6045:

you’re mistaken if you think d/d ele deals more damage than a shoutbow and shoutbow has also more support.

He’s mistaken about a lot of things. Look at his posts in the ele forum: he posts misinformation, people correct him, he acknowledges the correction, then he bizarrely starts a new thread repeating the same misinformation.

Supreme.3164:

I think B is the approach anet is taking, whether you or me like it….doesn’t matter, accept it or change class , it’s simple. Given the fact that I accepted this reality, I’ll use my energy to propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design, not according to people who expect ele fresh air to become a pseudo thief of any sort

With all due respect Supreme. I see that both of the sides here care deeply about Ele, and how to make it not trash. Both sides have different visions though, and for me, I see that the core difference between you and Laraley is:

• Supreme, you believe that the nerf is acceptable because you can “propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design”. That means the “nerf first, ask for buff later” approach
• Laraley and other people want to preserve what worked, and what has been fun about playing Ele.

I’m on Laraley’s side here, not because I have anything against you, nor that your idea is terrible. It’s just I lost my trust on the “we can just ask for buff later, ANet will definitely listen!” idea. It’s incredible naive, given all they did for the last few years.

In any case, I hope that you both can keep the constructive argument going

EDIT: also, saying d/d ele has more damage than a shoutbow is very mistaken T_T

ResJudicator.7916:

Jekkt.6045:

you’re mistaken if you think d/d ele deals more damage than a shoutbow and shoutbow has also more support.

He’s mistaken about a lot of things. Look at his posts in the ele forum: he posts misinformation, people correct him, he acknowledges the correction, then he bizarrely starts a new thread repeating the same misinformation.

Problem is Math is not a matter of opinion, you thinking otherwise will change nothing in the grand scheme of things. Made a thread explaining why geomancer defense is not a free buff, given the math and everything…you still insist on your wild theories, talking about celestial armor dmg reduction while completely ignoring the concept of diminishing return

Believe your own lie..nobody will stop you , but the one spreading misinformations would be you now.

At no point in time I cared for the popularity of my posts, I’m simply stating the facts and my opinions, whether you like them or not…doesn’t concern me at all.

But it was necessary to say this, people already accuse me of trolling, griefing and more, simply because I don’t agree with the majority

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

And do you realize that is too much support for a spec that deal more dmg than a shoutbow specced for support?

Do you realize that ele was designed to be a mix of everything and not good at anything?

You will have support but not much too support as now, you will have dmg just not as much dmg as mesmer and thieves. This is the reality whether or not you want to accept it.

There are two approaches to balance :

A- you redesign the ele , deleting the absurd 20 skills mechanic

B- you normalize ele with what they have now and respect to the other professions

I think B is the approach anet is taking, whether you or me like it….doesn’t matter, accept it or change class , it’s simple. Given the fact that I accepted this reality, I’ll use my energy to propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design, not according to people who expect ele fresh air to become a pseudo thief of any sort

People are already taking shoutbows over dd ele, after the patch it will be an easy decision. Ele is far from having too much team support. I don’t understand what you’re fighting for. People in this thread actually want to make the class good, you just want fresh air to be viable (and it really won’t unless tempest is very good) and don’t care about people who wants to play something different or don’t have the choice.

The reality is the way it is just because of people like you. People who do not understand the class or have naive ideas of what changes might bring. But enjoy yourself, I think I’m done having a discussion with someone who doesn’t care about the class being actually good and effective.

Shoutbow is not replacing d/d ele….it’s the ele that has no other option so it’s falling out of meta, with the ability of covering different roles the ele would not fall out of meta at all, but simply it won’t be a necessity for every team, that’s what balance means!

And I have said d/d ele offer too much support for the dmg and tankiness it has, if you don’t remove one of the three than ele will never see the light of a balanced future, it will always be considered OP by the masses..and it will have always horrendous elites, utilities as a consequence

You people don’t understand that without sacrifice there is no progress, you can’t expect the devs to give even more powerful traits in other lines so that we have option to chose something else that’s not 0/0/2/6/6….that’s ridiculous!

Fact is that the tanky d/d ele playstyle will remain and that’s great! But now you won’t be able to ace in every field while using the same build, that should have not be allowed since launch

Let me tell you what ele should be:
A hybrid class capable of BRIEFLY swap between roles while focusing on a given aspect of a team

Like have a tank ele focused on holding pts while still be able to be a menace for roaming burst spec, sort of anti-roamer/duellist

Or a fresh air ele focused on burst but still able to temporarily hold a point before the real point holder comes, till able to focus targets during team fights, got the dmg for that

A bit of everything, while being focused on something and still not able to excel at anything, that’s what ele should be…not a single build that tank, hold pts, wins 1vs1 and support team better than specialized builds…it make no sense.

This only brings hate from the community and lack of positive changes to the class, all because people can’t accept the reality of what things should really be

If you can’t understand this…then yeah discussion over

Are you listening to yourself? ‘’D/D ele is not falling out of meta, it just doesn’t have any other option.‘’ Yes, that’s exactly what’s happening shoutbow is replacing d/d ele. Not ele in general, because other specs are not really viable. Those are two completely different things. Keeping d/d ele viable and providing another specs viable. You seem to have it connected with ‘’if d/d ele is out of meta, there will be something else ele will play and be in meta’‘. That’s not how meta works at all.

You really don’t understand the role of d/d ele. In your eyes it’s just a tanky build, but that’s not at all why people take it in teams. It’s the support d/d ele is losing. No one cares about playing a super tanky d/d ele, it’s not wanted. This is a team game requiring team utilities and those is d/d ele losing. I really don’t know how to explain it. Maybe in your eyes having a tanky build is good, but I’m pretty sure in the eyes of people who play the spec and want to continue playing it in tournies it’s definitely a worse alternative of what we have now.

Sunshine.5014:

Supreme.3164:

I think B is the approach anet is taking, whether you or me like it….doesn’t matter, accept it or change class , it’s simple. Given the fact that I accepted this reality, I’ll use my energy to propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design, not according to people who expect ele fresh air to become a pseudo thief of any sort

With all due respect Supreme. I see that both of the sides here care deeply about Ele, and how to make it not trash. Both sides have different visions though, and for me, I see that the core difference between you and Laraley is:

• Supreme, you believe that the nerf is acceptable because you can “propose changes that will benefit ele accordingly to the class design”. That means the “nerf first, ask for buff later” approach
• Laraley and other people want to preserve what worked, and what has been fun about playing Ele.

I’m on Laraley’s side here, not because I have anything against you, nor that your idea is terrible. It’s just I lost my trust on the “we can just ask for buff later, ANet will definitely listen!” idea. It’s incredible naive, given all they did for the last few years.

In any case, I hope that you both can keep the constructive argument going

EDIT: also, saying d/d ele has more damage than a shoutbow is very mistaken T_T

D/D can have more dmg than shoutbow yes, the majority dmg of the latter comes from the pressure it can applies on a point and is mostly condi

For the rest : there is no nerf really, EA change cannot be considered a nerf at all. I have already explained why in my opinion this is not a nerf.
And yes the removal of EA from master hurt perma protection but ele has received ample compensation for that, whether people like the compensation or not, does not matter.

Can you imagine an ele d/d with: stone heart-frost aura on adepts, cantrip CD reduction trait incorporated into soothing disruption, and swap attunement CD reduced to 8?

Does that sounds balanced to you?

Laraley.7695:

-snip

NO! Ele may fall out of meta ( any format) completely if you people keep insisting with your idea, you can still have the support role you’re so fond of…just not along side damage, self sustain all in one package,that’s called balance.

Ele has no other options at the moment because of how strong 0/0/2/6/6 build is or maybe you guys are suggesting to leave everything as it is now and instead give even more powerful traits in other lines so that eles may decide to visit other build options.
That sound amazing,…truly does but let’s see if the devs or community agree..something tell me they won’t.

I don’t know why you keep using this “support” card, EA is still there for the taking for god sake..so why you people are still crying about it?

What else do you want? Evasive also?…Sorry that’s too much sustain to have all in one build, every profession supposed to be a choice for a team..not a must have, nobody ever said that ele must substitute shoutbow…..if a team does not want to use an ele, they should be free to do so, but fact remain that ele will remain a strong option for any team, just not a must have.

It was the same in GW1, not must have profession (even monks could be substituted by dervs or ele/monk or even ritualists, the changes won’t make d/d that much weaker of an option, simply not the best and for that ele will receive buffs that will allow other playstyles.

Whether you like or not those playstyle…that’s your problem

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

-snip

NO! Ele may fall out of meta ( any format) completely if you people keep insisting with your idea, you can still have the support role you’re so fond of…just not along side damage, self sustain all in one package,that’s called balance.

Ele has no other options at the moment because of how strong 0/0/2/6/6 build is or maybe you guys are suggesting to leave everything as it is now and instead give even more powerful traits in other lines so that eles may decide to visit other build options.
That sound amazing,…truly does but let’s see if the devs or community agree..something tell me they won’t.

I don’t know why you keep using this “support” card, EA is still there for the taking for god sake..so why you people are still crying about it?

What else do you want? Evasive also?…Sorry that’s too much sustain to have all in one build, every profession supposed to be a choice for a team..not a must have, nobody ever said that ele must substitute shoutbow…..if a team does not want to use an ele, they should be free to do so, but fact remain that ele will remain a strong option for any team, just not a must have.

It was the same in GW1, not must have profession (even monks could be substituted by dervs or ele/monk or even ritualists, the changes won’t make d/d that much weaker of an option, simply not the best and for that ele will receive buffs that will allow other playstyles.

Whether you like or not those playstyle…that’s your problem

I give up. You don’t understand either the role d/d ele has been filling nor the issues the changes bring. There’s literally nothing I can say to make you realize what almost everyone who does understand the class have been saying.

Supreme.3164:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jekkt.6045:

you’re mistaken if you think d/d ele deals more damage than a shoutbow and shoutbow has also more support.

He’s mistaken about a lot of things. Look at his posts in the ele forum: he posts misinformation, people correct him, he acknowledges the correction, then he bizarrely starts a new thread repeating the same misinformation.

Problem is Math is not a matter of opinion, you thinking otherwise will change nothing in the grand scheme of things. Made a thread explaining why geomancer defense is not a free buff, given the math and everything…you still insist on your wild theories, talking about celestial armor dmg reduction while completely ignoring the concept of diminishing return

Believe your own lie..nobody will stop you , but the one spreading misinformations would be you now.

At no point in time I cared for the popularity of my posts, I’m simply stating the facts and my opinions, whether you like them or not…doesn’t concern me at all.

But it was necessary to say this, people already accuse me of trolling, griefing and more, simply because I don’t agree with the majority

Actually, if you re-read your thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Geomancer-s-Defense-explained/first#post5032040) I was the one explaining how diminishing returns worked. Once again you’ve confused all the facts.

Like you said, math is not opinion. Your math was factually wrong, and it was corrected, then you went on to re-assert your point even though the math no longer supported it. It’s impossible to have a constructive conversation with you when you just keep repeating yourself even after you’ve realized that all your supporting arguments are wrong.

The same thing is happening here. At this point, you’re just contradicting your own posts or purposefully mischaracterizing other people’s posts.

What you guys don’t realize is that I love this profession. I spent 8-9 with Anet now between GW1 and GW2, and ele has been my main since the first days of Prophecy.

It’s no secret that I don’t like Gw2 ele concept, but I came to accept it, there is potential , sacrifices like this change must be done to develop this potential.

We’re trying to move forward and a change that would destroy/delete a build should be considered a step backward and in that case I would have sided with you guys at 100%…but that’s not the case here.

The build/role has not been deleted, it has been reduced in effectiveness and that’s a good thing, because more useful traits have been added to other trait lines, some will be fixed and other changed..but it’s still a change for the best.

Sad indeed that you guys can’t see the game under the same perspective

Supreme.3164:

What you guys don’t realize is that I love this profession. I spent 8-9 with Anet now between GW1 and GW2, and ele has been my main since the first days of Prophecy.

It’s no secret that I don’t like Gw2 ele concept, but I came to accept it, there is potential , sacrifices like this change must be done to develop this potential.

We’re trying to move forward and a change that would destroy/delete a build should be considered a step backward and in that case I would have sided with you guys at 100%…but that’s not the case here.

The build/role has not been deleted, it has been reduced in effectiveness and that’s a good thing, because more useful traits have been added to other trait lines, some will be fixed and other changed..but it’s still a change for the best.

Sad indeed that you guys can’t see the game under the same perspective

‘’More useful traits have been added’’ Yeah, exactly my point. You do not understand the class, meta or balance at all.

Every prof’s meta is falling out…its gonna be a heck of a fun time in pvp when this all drops. The meta is going to completely change

Avead.5760:

Quadox.7834:

I agree, selfish version would work well.

Pls stop suggesting that.It doesnt solve the issue at all.
Its always the same thing with this game..A class can be super op in the sense that it is irreplaceable to every team but everybody will say nothing for years .
But when a class gets strong in the form of good self sustain everybody posts 10 nerf threads per day here..
Selfish elemental attunement will just bring more tears and wont do kitten for the support part.You ll have an “unkillable” ele again that all solo players,wvw players,hot join heroes cry all day while teams couldnt care less about replacing it when the nerfs inevitably come cause there are better options in tfs.

“We need the sustain!!” – every ele ever
“Don’t give us sustain, people will complain!”

What?
what?

as i said a master trait version of elemental attunement that gives buffs only to allies would be nerf enough. that way ele selfsustain is lowered but support is still given.

Avead.5760:

Quadox.7834:

From a game design standpoint, Anet is doing the right thing by not allowing evasive arcana and elemental attunement at the same time. I do not care how much you guys say that “ele needs it”- they don’t. Period. They need Alternatives. And hopefully they will add just that. I do think, however that diamond skin and stone heart are badly designed traits, diamond skin at the very least. These (and other lines’ GMs) could probably be changed to something more fitting.

I will personally probably run 6/6/0/0/6 fresh air s/f with
Burning precision- pyromancer’s training – blinding ashes
One with air (lol that buff)- X (not sure yet) – Fresh air
Renewing Stamina- Elemental contingency (probably) – Elemental attunement

Since fresh air builds crit so often this provides blinds every 3- 4 seconds and super speed approaching 50% uptime in a fight (due to fresh air).

No condi clear,no heal,11k hp ,too much protection when you should really be afraid of condies (not only the damaging ones) in exchange of a single target blind that you cant control here and there every 4 sec.
You can run something similar right now but with the actuall opness that is evasive arcana and elem attunement together so you have some condi clear and extra heal every 10 sec and more damage due to the damage modifiers in air.
Try it and tell me how it goes,and IF it didnt go that well tell me how an extra 2 fire traits/quickness for the loss of damage and evasive arcana will make it better

The fact that every ele is playing the same traits since the dawn of time up to the competitive level makes me thing that not being able to go fire and air together is not an l2p issue..that or all eles ever tried this game sucked
Maybe an extra fire aura and some protection from direct damage in earth will fix the melting to burst and to conditions..or maybe tempest will bring stealth.

Do you even know elmentalist ablities? Read on magnetic shield please. As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days. Actually, fresh air has more sustain than mesmer in general, with the tradeoff being stealth. Use terrain and your permanent vigor to evade the condition that you can’t clear.

I personally like blind, but you can go ahead and use water traitline like fresh air eles are doing now, or earth if you so want it. Although i do think those options are worse. Also, you actually don’t know that the build will have 11k hp, as you know nothing about the way stats will work.

ResJudicator.7916:

Supreme.3164:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jekkt.6045:

you’re mistaken if you think d/d ele deals more damage than a shoutbow and shoutbow has also more support.

He’s mistaken about a lot of things. Look at his posts in the ele forum: he posts misinformation, people correct him, he acknowledges the correction, then he bizarrely starts a new thread repeating the same misinformation.

Problem is Math is not a matter of opinion, you thinking otherwise will change nothing in the grand scheme of things. Made a thread explaining why geomancer defense is not a free buff, given the math and everything…you still insist on your wild theories, talking about celestial armor dmg reduction while completely ignoring the concept of diminishing return

Believe your own lie..nobody will stop you , but the one spreading misinformations would be you now.

At no point in time I cared for the popularity of my posts, I’m simply stating the facts and my opinions, whether you like them or not…doesn’t concern me at all.

But it was necessary to say this, people already accuse me of trolling, griefing and more, simply because I don’t agree with the majority

Actually, if you re-read your thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Geomancer-s-Defense-explained/first#post5032040) I was the one explaining how diminishing returns worked. Once again you’ve confused all the facts.

And you are right, math is not opinion. Your math was factually wrong, and it was corrected, then you went on to re-assert your point even though the math no longer supported it. It’s impossible to have a constructive conversation with you when you just keep repeating yourself even after you’ve realized that all your supporting arguments are wrong.

No need to re-read when we can post your own answers again:

Few things wrong with OP’s argument:
(1) Math is off. Adding 300 toughness on a celestial D/D build means you take roughly 11% less damage than a D/D build without the bonus 300 toughness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

Says he understands what diminishing return means, then add 300 toughness to 400+toughness over base toughness…and say I’m wrong

Then after me rightly pointing you out in the right direction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicative_inverse

You do a 180 degree turn…

However, there are diminishing returns on how much additional % damage reduction each additional point of armor/toughness gives. You don’t get an additional 12% damage reduction or whatever for every 300 points of armor. That number will decrease.

And despite your pointless diatribe , a 300 toughness added to a 916 base still equals to 20% dmg reduction overall, meaning that geomancer’s defense still equals more or less to 30 earth ele using no amulet and runes.

Formula and results are there black on white, feel free to use same numbers and prove me wrong, adding celestial to the thread while ignoring the meaning of diminishing return makes zero sense.

Scope of the thread was to show people how geomancer’s defense is not a gift or additional defense ( which has been amply proved) and all you did was attacking me out of context argument just for the sake of arguing…and in the end you still failed miserably, ’cause to this day you have proved nothing against my point while adding an unknown to the relation to make( attempt) your point….sad indeed

Anhomedog.7968:

Every prof’s meta is falling out…its gonna be a heck of a fun time in pvp when this all drops. The meta is going to completely change

Actually the 6/0/2/0/6 meta panic strike build is getting a straight buff across the board to damage (dagger training baseline) and survivability/support (because it will now be 6/0/6/0/6). No sacrifices at all to the existing meta build, it’s a straight-up buff.

Shatter mesmer also getting largely buffed, with several of their key traits (IP (GM), elasticity (master), and I think far-reaching manipulations (adept)) becoming baseline.

Now, it’s entirely possible that thief/mes will get even stronger builds (esp. interrupt mesmer), which might push out panic strike and shatter mes. However, those underlying meta builds will still be objectively stronger than they currently are.

Can’t say the same for Ele. The Ele’s current D/D build is objectively going to become weaker in terms of team support, and stronger in terms of passive face-tanking potential. Overall, it’s a mixed bag for eles.

Quadox.7834:

Avead.5760:

Quadox.7834:

From a game design standpoint, Anet is doing the right thing by not allowing evasive arcana and elemental attunement at the same time. I do not care how much you guys say that “ele needs it”- they don’t. Period. They need Alternatives. And hopefully they will add just that. I do think, however that diamond skin and stone heart are badly designed traits, diamond skin at the very least. These (and other lines’ GMs) could probably be changed to something more fitting.

I will personally probably run 6/6/0/0/6 fresh air s/f with
Burning precision- pyromancer’s training – blinding ashes
One with air (lol that buff)- X (not sure yet) – Fresh air
Renewing Stamina- Elemental contingency (probably) – Elemental attunement

Since fresh air builds crit so often this provides blinds every 3- 4 seconds and super speed approaching 50% uptime in a fight (due to fresh air).

No condi clear,no heal,11k hp ,too much protection when you should really be afraid of condies (not only the damaging ones) in exchange of a single target blind that you cant control here and there every 4 sec.
You can run something similar right now but with the actuall opness that is evasive arcana and elem attunement together so you have some condi clear and extra heal every 10 sec and more damage due to the damage modifiers in air.
Try it and tell me how it goes,and IF it didnt go that well tell me how an extra 2 fire traits/quickness for the loss of damage and evasive arcana will make it better

The fact that every ele is playing the same traits since the dawn of time up to the competitive level makes me thing that not being able to go fire and air together is not an l2p issue..that or all eles ever tried this game sucked
Maybe an extra fire aura and some protection from direct damage in earth will fix the melting to burst and to conditions..or maybe tempest will bring stealth.

Do you even know elmentalist ablities? Read on magnetic shield please. As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days. Actually, fresh air has more sustain than mesmer in general, with the tradeoff being stealth. Use terrain and your permanent vigor to evade the condition that you can’t clear.

I personally like blind, but you can go ahead and use water traitline like fresh air eles are doing now, or earth if you so want it. Although i do think those options are worse. Also, you actually don’t know that the build will have 11k hp, as you know nothing about the way stats will work.

That’s actually one/one of the two effective condi removals fresh air has. It’s on 25 seconds cooldown. Don’t get me wrong, the skill is great, but it’s far from ‘’condi removal for days’‘. If the ele has 30 in arcana, then it has another condi removal every 10 seconds. Phoenix does remove a condition but if you’re going to use it to do so primarily, you’ll lose on the main burst skill you have.

Laraley.7695:

Quadox.7834:

Avead.5760:

Quadox.7834:

From a game design standpoint, Anet is doing the right thing by not allowing evasive arcana and elemental attunement at the same time. I do not care how much you guys say that “ele needs it”- they don’t. Period. They need Alternatives. And hopefully they will add just that. I do think, however that diamond skin and stone heart are badly designed traits, diamond skin at the very least. These (and other lines’ GMs) could probably be changed to something more fitting.

I will personally probably run 6/6/0/0/6 fresh air s/f with
Burning precision- pyromancer’s training – blinding ashes
One with air (lol that buff)- X (not sure yet) – Fresh air
Renewing Stamina- Elemental contingency (probably) – Elemental attunement

Since fresh air builds crit so often this provides blinds every 3- 4 seconds and super speed approaching 50% uptime in a fight (due to fresh air).

No condi clear,no heal,11k hp ,too much protection when you should really be afraid of condies (not only the damaging ones) in exchange of a single target blind that you cant control here and there every 4 sec.
You can run something similar right now but with the actuall opness that is evasive arcana and elem attunement together so you have some condi clear and extra heal every 10 sec and more damage due to the damage modifiers in air.
Try it and tell me how it goes,and IF it didnt go that well tell me how an extra 2 fire traits/quickness for the loss of damage and evasive arcana will make it better

The fact that every ele is playing the same traits since the dawn of time up to the competitive level makes me thing that not being able to go fire and air together is not an l2p issue..that or all eles ever tried this game sucked
Maybe an extra fire aura and some protection from direct damage in earth will fix the melting to burst and to conditions..or maybe tempest will bring stealth.

Do you even know elmentalist ablities? Read on magnetic shield please. As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days. Actually, fresh air has more sustain than mesmer in general, with the tradeoff being stealth. Use terrain and your permanent vigor to evade the condition that you can’t clear.

I personally like blind, but you can go ahead and use water traitline like fresh air eles are doing now, or earth if you so want it. Although i do think those options are worse. Also, you actually don’t know that the build will have 11k hp, as you know nothing about the way stats will work.

That’s actually one/one of the two effective condi removals fresh air has. It’s on 25 seconds cooldown. Don’t get me wrong, the skill is great, but it’s far from ‘’condi removal for days’‘. If the ele has 30 in arcana, then it has another condi removal every 10 seconds. Phoenix does remove a condition but if you’re going to use it to do so primarily, you’ll lose on the main burst skill you have.

Maybe you missed when i said “As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days”. ^^

Depends on what you are used to.

Quadox.7834:

Laraley.7695:

Quadox.7834:

Avead.5760:

Quadox.7834:

From a game design standpoint, Anet is doing the right thing by not allowing evasive arcana and elemental attunement at the same time. I do not care how much you guys say that “ele needs it”- they don’t. Period. They need Alternatives. And hopefully they will add just that. I do think, however that diamond skin and stone heart are badly designed traits, diamond skin at the very least. These (and other lines’ GMs) could probably be changed to something more fitting.

I will personally probably run 6/6/0/0/6 fresh air s/f with
Burning precision- pyromancer’s training – blinding ashes
One with air (lol that buff)- X (not sure yet) – Fresh air
Renewing Stamina- Elemental contingency (probably) – Elemental attunement

Since fresh air builds crit so often this provides blinds every 3- 4 seconds and super speed approaching 50% uptime in a fight (due to fresh air).

No condi clear,no heal,11k hp ,too much protection when you should really be afraid of condies (not only the damaging ones) in exchange of a single target blind that you cant control here and there every 4 sec.
You can run something similar right now but with the actuall opness that is evasive arcana and elem attunement together so you have some condi clear and extra heal every 10 sec and more damage due to the damage modifiers in air.
Try it and tell me how it goes,and IF it didnt go that well tell me how an extra 2 fire traits/quickness for the loss of damage and evasive arcana will make it better

The fact that every ele is playing the same traits since the dawn of time up to the competitive level makes me thing that not being able to go fire and air together is not an l2p issue..that or all eles ever tried this game sucked
Maybe an extra fire aura and some protection from direct damage in earth will fix the melting to burst and to conditions..or maybe tempest will bring stealth.

Do you even know elmentalist ablities? Read on magnetic shield please. As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days. Actually, fresh air has more sustain than mesmer in general, with the tradeoff being stealth. Use terrain and your permanent vigor to evade the condition that you can’t clear.

I personally like blind, but you can go ahead and use water traitline like fresh air eles are doing now, or earth if you so want it. Although i do think those options are worse. Also, you actually don’t know that the build will have 11k hp, as you know nothing about the way stats will work.

That’s actually one/one of the two effective condi removals fresh air has. It’s on 25 seconds cooldown. Don’t get me wrong, the skill is great, but it’s far from ‘’condi removal for days’‘. If the ele has 30 in arcana, then it has another condi removal every 10 seconds. Phoenix does remove a condition but if you’re going to use it to do so primarily, you’ll lose on the main burst skill you have.

Maybe you missed when i said “As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days”. ^^

Depends on what you are used to.

I suppose so, but people see it one sided. I agree mesmers could use a bit more condi removal, however mesmers have a higher hp pool than ele so it evens out in theory. In reality both mesmer and fresh air will melt down to condi burst.

Quadox.7834:

Do you even know elmentalist ablities? Read on magnetic shield please. As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days. Actually, fresh air has more sustain than mesmer in general, with the tradeoff being stealth. Use terrain and your permanent vigor to evade the condition that you can’t clear.

I personally like blind, but you can go ahead and use water traitline like fresh air eles are doing now, or earth if you so want it. Although i do think those options are worse. Also, you actually don’t know that the build will have 11k hp, as you know nothing about the way stats will work.

Yes i know everything about any skill ele has or had and i would bet my left nut that this build is gonna be kitten like it is today.
Its called magnetic wave btw and is on a 25 sec cd.Its also your only condi removal in that build.Zerkers doesnt have hp as a secondary stat so the buff on vitality wont be as much as you think.I highly doubt you ll end above 15k maybe even 14k or less.
You should also consider that as a mesmer player you are used to plenty of oh kitten buttons that you dont even need to trait for plus your class mechanic.Not having them with ele will make you get hit more.Your hp will be less as well.’
You wont be able to kite that good…
You ll get near to burst with phoenix and then you ll wonder where is your op blink staff skill on a base 10 sec cd to get you off to high ground..Then when you inevitable die you ll start potitioning safer, keeping distance etc..But then you ll notice the weak autoattacks and that you arent doing much damage at all.
At that point you should propably realise..“whats the point” and run back at your mesmer and all the goodies it ll get

Lastly elem attunement self only version is still bad idea.It overpowers the already good sustain of selfish tank builds we are getting anyway with the new system on ele while doesnt fix the support..Is it so hard to see it?

Avead.5760:

Lastly elem attunement self only version is still bad idea.It overpowers the already good sustain of selfish tank builds we are getting anyway with the new system on ele while doesnt fix the support..Is it so hard to see it?

I disagree with you here, and this is why:

1. A self-only version (with shorter durations) baseline improves the baseline sustain of the class and truly cuts ties with the NECESSITY of going into arcana. This actual creates build diversity as arcana will have attractive traits but not be forced to pick up the trait that defines the class.
2. Since all of the balancing for weapon skills, other traits, etc. has been done with the assumption that 100% of pvp builds have this trait, why not make it true?
3. Having greater baseline sustain means they don’t need to have as many OP survival options that become dangerous when stacked together, creating serious balancing issues. Besides, numbers on other traits are still in flux: remember, previewed numbers were not set-in stone, and that -20% damage within 600 range that everyone is counting on will probably end up being -5% damage within 120 range b/c they seem to want to crap REALLY kitten the class right now.
4. It allows the class to have an actual built-in defense mechanic like every other class has, making the attunement system have an actual benefit rather than carrying only negatives (long CD’s on skills, trashy auto-attacks besides lightning whip and fireball, long CD’s on slot-skills).
5. The class just FEELS wrong without it.
6. It shouldn’t actually reduce support, as the baseline-proposal also includes a master-level trait that increases the duration and makes it AOE, turning the trait “Elemental Attunement” primarily into a support trait and helping the tanky/support-ish build that d/d is. This allows builds that want more support to maintain that play-style without making it “necessary for survival”

Making selfish boons-on-swap baseline at a reduced duration has nothing by positive benefits for a class that has some truly deep flaws, actually opening the door for build diversity. Further, by implementing the trait “ele attunement” to make those boons AOE, you keep the strong support element viable while also decoupling it from the “needs this to survive” functionality.

BlackBeard.2873:

Avead.5760:

Lastly elem attunement self only version is still bad idea.It overpowers the already good sustain of selfish tank builds we are getting anyway with the new system on ele while doesnt fix the support..Is it so hard to see it?

I disagree with you here, and this is why:

1. A self-only version (with shorter durations) baseline improves the baseline sustain of the class and truly cuts ties with the NECESSITY of going into arcana. This actual creates build diversity as arcana will have attractive traits but not be forced to pick up the trait that defines the class.
2. Since all of the balancing for weapon skills, other traits, etc. has been done with the assumption that 100% of pvp builds have this trait, why not make it true?
3. Having greater baseline sustain means they don’t need to have as many OP survival options that become dangerous when stacked together, creating serious balancing issues. Besides, numbers on other traits are still in flux: remember, previewed numbers were not set-in stone, and that -20% damage within 600 range that everyone is counting on will probably end up being -5% damage within 120 range b/c they seem to want to crap REALLY kitten the class right now.
4. It allows the class to have an actual built-in defense mechanic like every other class has, making the attunement system have an actual benefit rather than carrying only negatives (long CD’s on skills, trashy auto-attacks besides lightning whip and fireball, long CD’s on slot-skills).
5. The class just FEELS wrong without it.
6. It shouldn’t actually reduce support, as the baseline-proposal also includes a master-level trait that increases the duration and makes it AOE, turning the trait “Elemental Attunement” primarily into a support trait and helping the tanky/support-ish build that d/d is. This allows builds that want more support to maintain that play-style without making it “necessary for survival”

Making selfish boons-on-swap baseline at a reduced duration has nothing by positive benefits for a class that has some truly deep flaws, actually opening the door for build diversity. Further, by implementing the trait “ele attunement” to make those boons AOE, you keep the strong support element viable while also decoupling it from the “needs this to survive” functionality.

Exactly. Eles are asking for more sustain> Anet don’t want to give them simply more hp> I suggest this change which clearly gives ele more sustain without going arcana> People say that it sucks.

Hypocrisy much?

Avead.5760:

Quadox.7834:

Do you even know elmentalist ablities? Read on magnetic shield please. As a mesmer player, i find fresh air has condition removal for days. Actually, fresh air has more sustain than mesmer in general, with the tradeoff being stealth. Use terrain and your permanent vigor to evade the condition that you can’t clear.

I personally like blind, but you can go ahead and use water traitline like fresh air eles are doing now, or earth if you so want it. Although i do think those options are worse. Also, you actually don’t know that the build will have 11k hp, as you know nothing about the way stats will work.

Yes i know everything about any skill ele has or had and i would bet my left nut that this build is gonna be kitten like it is today.
Its called magnetic wave btw and is on a 25 sec cd.Its also your only condi removal in that build.Zerkers doesnt have hp as a secondary stat so the buff on vitality wont be as much as you think.I highly doubt you ll end above 15k maybe even 14k or less.
You should also consider that as a mesmer player you are used to plenty of oh kitten buttons that you dont even need to trait for plus your class mechanic.Not having them with ele will make you get hit more.Your hp will be less as well.’
You wont be able to kite that good…
You ll get near to burst with phoenix and then you ll wonder where is your op blink staff skill on a base 10 sec cd to get you off to high ground..Then when you inevitable die you ll start potitioning safer, keeping distance etc..But then you ll notice the weak autoattacks and that you arent doing much damage at all.
At that point you should propably realise..“whats the point” and run back at your mesmer and all the goodies it ll get

Lastly elem attunement self only version is still bad idea.It overpowers the already good sustain of selfish tank builds we are getting anyway with the new system on ele while doesnt fix the support..Is it so hard to see it?

OR i use obsidian skin for the same function as distortion, with the lack of stealth offset by blinds, permanent (op op) vigor, an amazing heal, better condi removal, the list goes on. What do i have on mesmer? stealth + an evade skill that roots you.

Im not saying fresh air will be a great meta build, i am only saying this is what i’ll be running for fun, and in my opinion it is underrated asf because most eles aren’t used to kiting and using terrain anymore due to cele.

And true, my hp will be less, but i will have amazing protection uptime for that issue.

Quadox.7834:

OR i use obsidian skin for the same function as distortion, with the lack of stealth offset by blinds, permanent (op op) vigor, an amazing heal, better condi removal, the list goes on. What do i have on mesmer? stealth + an evade skill that roots you.

Im not saying fresh air will be a great meta build, i am only saying this is what i’ll be running for fun, and in my opinion it is underrated asf because most eles aren’t used to kiting and using terrain anymore due to cele.

And true, my hp will be less, but i will have amazing protection uptime for that issue.

You are kind of missing the point of zerker mesmer. While the actual fighting capabilities are pretty close to fresh-air ele, mesmer has portal. Even though mesmer also has some other benefits (boon stripping, shorter CD’s so that you can stay in the fight longer and burst slightly more often, stealth which allows both defensive and offensive bursts with no telegraph, etc.), and ele has some of its own advantages (swiftness uptime, more cleanses, potential for aoe boons), the ENTIRE reason you take a mesmer rather than just another thief is portal. Portal alone (and even Illusion of Life when Mesmers used to get away with taking it) can completely change the pacing and outcome of match. It creates outnumbered situations by holding enemies on a point, it allows sick rotational jukes, it can secure resses (for ele) or peels for team-mates under-fire…the list goes on. Even if the balance of +/- in a comparison of ele and mesmer in a fight tipped slightly towards ele (it actually tips slightly towards mesmer), the rediculous plays that portal allows completely changes the game.

Meanwhile, burst eles don’t bring ANYTHING special that would make you rather have an ele. Even the support-capability through boons, cleanses, and heals are so short-range on such a squishy spec that the actual capability is greatly reduced from the maximum theoretical potential, further lessening their impact when comparing them for the roaming-dps role.

BlackBeard.2873:

Quadox.7834:

OR i use obsidian skin for the same function as distortion, with the lack of stealth offset by blinds, permanent (op op) vigor, an amazing heal, better condi removal, the list goes on. What do i have on mesmer? stealth + an evade skill that roots you.

Im not saying fresh air will be a great meta build, i am only saying this is what i’ll be running for fun, and in my opinion it is underrated asf because most eles aren’t used to kiting and using terrain anymore due to cele.

And true, my hp will be less, but i will have amazing protection uptime for that issue.

You are kind of missing the point of zerker mesmer. While the actual fighting capabilities are pretty close to fresh-air ele, mesmer has portal. Even though mesmer also has some other benefits (boon stripping, shorter CD’s so that you can stay in the fight longer and burst slightly more often, stealth which allows both defensive and offensive bursts with no telegraph, etc.), and ele has some of its own advantages (swiftness uptime, more cleanses, potential for aoe boons), the ENTIRE reason you take a mesmer rather than just another thief is portal. Portal alone (and even Illusion of Life when Mesmers used to get away with taking it) can completely change the pacing and outcome of match. It creates outnumbered situations by holding enemies on a point, it allows sick rotational jukes, it can secure resses (for ele) or peels for team-mates under-fire…the list goes on. Even if the balance of +/- in a comparison of ele and mesmer in a fight tipped slightly towards ele (it actually tips slightly towards mesmer), the rediculous plays that portal allows completely changes the game.

Meanwhile, burst eles don’t bring ANYTHING special that would make you rather have an ele. Even the support-capability through boons, cleanses, and heals are so short-range on such a squishy spec that the actual capability is greatly reduced from the maximum theoretical potential, further lessening their impact when comparing them for the roaming-dps role.

Fgs is strong (so is moa) and technically eles bring boons (protection) and water trident heals to the table. Actually, they also bring swirling winds boon block for en entire point > amazing vs some comps like engi. But i agree, hence why i said “Im not saying fresh air will be a great meta build, i am only saying this is what i’ll be running for fun.”

I don’t know why you guys keep arguing when i just posted the build i will be running, not more. I even suggested some things i believe could fix ele sustain problem, e.g. selfish EA. ^^

1)People ask for EA baseline…but ask also for a master trait in arcana that makes the trait AoE version again all this while saying that self-sustain is not what they’re worried about

2)They then say that this decision would actually increase build diversity

3)But apparently any build that has no EA support is deemed UP, non meta; basically you’re not meta and not worth considering unless you spec into arcana anyway

4)Basically people want to play the current build in the new system, but the build has been deemed too powerful and it is and most people don’t get it or simply won’t accept it.

Eles need something else to define their main mechanic, boon spamming is not what the profession should be about. And boons it’s not what the profession should rely to.

People should be asking for something that cannot be easily disabled by the opponent, that defines ele and at the same time doesn’t bring him overboard

you’re asking for the impossible, look how long it took anet to make ele viable after the exodus, 1 year. it’s better to keep what we have than to hope for something that might not come in the near future. nobody cares about elem attune self sustain, i have already said this multiple times, it’s way more important for d/d to keep the boons for allies and not necessarily for yourself.

and the build hasn’t been deemed too powerful but the traits have been deemed “too core”.

Jekkt.6045:

you’re asking for the impossible, look how long it took anet to make ele viable after the exodus, 1 year. it’s better to keep what we have than to hope for something that might not come in the near future. nobody cares about elem attune self sustain, i have already said this multiple times, it’s way more important for d/d to keep the boons for allies and not necessarily for yourself.

and the build hasn’t been deemed too powerful but the traits have been deemed “too core”.

You’re alone in asking this I believe, if you take the time to read, you’ll realize the contradiction of this thread.

People say they to want to support so they need EA…but for god sake the trait is still alive, so it’s not really the support they want, it’s the extra sustain they really want and that’s is far too powerful.

If left as it it’d be too powerful for ele to receive anything worth using on other trait lines, a concept that has been explained dozen of times and still get ignored, despite its simplicity

if left as it is now, do you really think that anybody would consider Tempest ? Nobody would unless the specialization would offers even more powerful traits, then people would drop earth to go tempest/water/arcana , creating in that way an even stronger monster that has even less weaknesses.

On a power scale, you have 5 builds, one of them reach the maximum level of 10, the other 4 build are stuck at 6.
Logic dictate that the build sitting at 10 is brought to a level where is more easy to gain equality between all 5 builds, so the build sitting at 10 is brought down to 8, and the remaining 4 builds receive a buff of 2 pts each.

There would be much more work in case the build sitting at 10 would be left alone, it would means that the remainig 4 builds now require 4 pts to reach equality; double the work…something that no game company will ever do, and for what matter…no company in real life does double the work to keep a minority of customers happy

yes if you want to support you need evasive arcana + elemental attunement. one allone isn’t enough to compete with shoutbow. ele doesn’t necessarily need the boons of elemental attunement for itself but for the allies, especially the regen cleanse and protection for squishy teammates.

with the changes to the earth and water line a non-self elemental attunement version as master trait would be enough. if i talk about stuff i always talk about it regarding high pvp level and not yolo-solo play.

of course people would consider tempest if it is good enough, i will also drop arcana on any non d/d celestial build because the earth line is way better for a berserk if you want def.

what you’re wrong about is if d/d is brought down from 9 to 7 the other builds won’t go up from 5 to 7, maybe by the standarts we have now, but other builds are going from 10 up to 12 now. d/d ele is max a 9, the build has been nerfed a lot and is the weakest celestial build currently.

By far cele d/d ele is not the weakest! There are different parameters to take in consideration before committing to such an allegation.

The current cele d/d ele sit halfway between extreme support ( shoutbow) and extreme dps/cc ( engi), but the build may be reaching its breaking point in PvP…and that’s fine every build goes through that stage in PvP, it’s time for people to change playstyle, if yes, good let’s experiment, if not there are other professions to play.

All people that swear by this support role, can go and play shoutbow themselves, if you want to be the primary source of support, then by all by all means..go play a class that allows that.

Ele are not supposed to be the primary source of anything, no specialized role for you, people still refuse to accept this reality..actually they never will accept it.

Jack of all trades, master of none is the core design concept of ele, the class has the tools to overcome problems in different situation, yes we have glaring weaknesses but this is nothing compared to what ele was back in 2013 after April patch, to say otherwise it’s blasphemy.

It’s not the class that is falling out of meta pvP..it’s the build, the class needs other options and those options will never materialize unless the best option atm is toned down and toned down does not mean deleted.

EA+evasive is too much support/sustain considering all the tools ele has, yes we don’t have the CC of engi..but we have stability, more condi aoe removal; yes we don’t have the support of shoutbow but we can 1v1 better. An ele is not supposed to substitute any other class, the class offers something different, a complement to the team…not a necessity

Other playstyles are being offered to ele and tempest may open up other build options on top. D/D doesn’t hold up anymore in this meta, so people must adapt..or they can move to greener( in their eyes) pastures

Supreme.3164:

D/D doesn’t hold up anymore in this meta, so people must adapt..or they can move to greener( in their eyes) pastures

That is what top level teams are already doing and this change will just secure it. All eles will either re-roll shoutbow for support, cele engi for jack of all trades, or theif/mesmer for burst. Yay balanced.

Glenstorm.4059:

-It’s always been ridiculous that we have Attunement swap cool downs, large cool downs on our weapon skills, AND that our weapon skills on an individual basis are weaker than those of other professions. Two of these three I can understand. But all three?

There isn’t a single point you raised that I could agree upon in the paragraph.

Attunement swap cooldown is essentially the same as weapon swap cooldowns on the other classes (excluding Engi). The concept in itself allows you to have access to 20 skills, 4 are auto attacks can be ignored, meaning 16 other situational skills. I’m aware you’ll need to trait into Arcane to reduce the cooldowns. However traiting into Arcane with Elemental Attunement give Elementalists bonuses relative to some weapon-swap sigils.

Elementalist weapon skills are surely not weaker compared to other professions. They simply display lower tooltip damage because most Elementalists are invested into Celestial. Infact, elementalist’s burst potential is scary (as proven by Fresh Air). It is something the current meta and game modes that hinders their presence in PvP.

And finally for weapon cooldowns. Lets take D/D as example:

• Fire attunement: 5 15 15 45
• Water attunement: 10 15 40 40
• Air attunement: 10 25 40(20) 40
• Earth attunement: 6 12 45 30

Compared to others that are currently ‘meta’:

• Guardian (hammer): 5 15 25 40
• Guardian (scepter/focus): 6 20 25 40
• Mesmer (greatsword): 8 12 20 30
• Mesmer (staff): 10 18 35 35

They all have comparatively similar cooldown for their effects.

ArthurDent.9538:

Supreme.3164:

D/D doesn’t hold up anymore in this meta, so people must adapt..or they can move to greener( in their eyes) pastures

That is what top level teams are already doing and this change will just secure it. All eles will either re-roll shoutbow for support, cele engi for jack of all trades, or theif/mesmer for burst. Yay balanced.

D/D ele may go in Conquest, but there is still Stronghold so who knows but for the rest as I’ve explained, d/d build is getting phased out, it’s time for a new build, something that may well come with the new system, something we don’t know yet…what we can be sure of is that EA+Evasive is too strong and needs to go, eles must gain another form of mechanic defining mechanism, this is for the best of everybody, if you support people in this thread ..you support the idea of ele being pigeonholed in water/arcana

Don’t root for EA…this is not the whole picture, there are many factors people in this thread are not taking in consideration, one would be: revenant , do a small research on the new class and you’ll realize why EA baseline is really a bad idea, and this is only part of the problems that would come in case EA becomes baseline

Supreme.3164:

ArthurDent.9538:

Supreme.3164:

D/D doesn’t hold up anymore in this meta, so people must adapt..or they can move to greener( in their eyes) pastures

That is what top level teams are already doing and this change will just secure it. All eles will either re-roll shoutbow for support, cele engi for jack of all trades, or theif/mesmer for burst. Yay balanced.

D/D ele may go in Conquest, but there is still Stronghold so who knows but for the rest as I’ve explained, d/d build is getting phased out, it’s time for a new build, something that may well come with the new system, something we don’t know yet…what we can be sure of is that EA+Evasive is too strong and needs to go, eles must gain another form of mechanic defining mechanism, this is for the best of everybody, if you support people in this thread ..you support the idea of ele being pigeonholed in water/arcana

Don’t root for EA…this is not the whole picture, there are many factors people in this thread are not taking in consideration, one would be: revenant , do a small research on the new class and you’ll realize why EA baseline is really a bad idea, and this is only part of the problems that would come in case EA becomes baseline

D/D is the strongest build ele has for pvp at the moment, nerfing it so much no one will use it is not the solution. It won’t magically make other builds viable, you should really stop looking at it like this. Do you know what happened the last time ele was nerfed like this? Yes, no one played it for months till they buffed it again. I can’t believe someone who says that he cares about the profession says the build should be pushed out of meta.

Ele has the lower hp and armour and it does depends on boons and it will be like this unless they completely revamp the profession. It’s exactly how ele has been played till now and I don’t understand why they should get rid of that. Self sustain is not the problem d/d ele is facing. It’s not even the problem fresh air has. I’m gonna say this once again, sustain is fine, but due to being so squishy and depeneding on long cooldowns with having nothing more to offer to team, ele will disappear from pvp if they go on with this change and won’t make tempest at least as good as normal changes to thieves/mesmers.

Evasive Arcana and Elemental Attunement could be a bit too strong in the old system. However, in the new system all proferssions apart from ele and necro are getting huge buffs. It’s far away from being too strong when mesmers are getting so many baseline stuff and thieves can play both currect dp builds in one after the change.

You basically said no reason why having both would be bad apart from it being too strong (it is not) and wanting to have a different spec to play and I explained why that’s a bad idea above.

Bump

/10 chars

Laraley.7695:

Self sustain is not the problem d/d ele is facing. It’s not even the problem fresh air has. I’m gonna say this once again, sustain is fine, but due to being so squishy and depeneding on long cooldowns with having nothing more to offer to team, ele will disappear from pvp if they go on with this change and won’t make tempest at least as good as normal changes to thieves/mesmers.

I just want to clarify because a lot of people seem caught up on the nuance behind this assertion. Base-line, self-sustain IS a very-big issue for ele, thus why EVERY build currently goes so deep into water/arcana. Post-patch, max-tank eles will still have good enough self-sustain when speccing earth/water/arcana, but every single ele build will STILL be forced heavily into defense just to be on-par with every other class in terms of baseline survival capability. Even fresh-air has trouble with self-sustain due to the boons being less effective on a squishy spec AND survival tied to long CDs.

I do agree with you, under the new system, d/d will still have sufficient self-sustain (as you have indicated), but loses a LARGE portion of its team-support. In the past, any time you had an ele build that could sustain itself pretty well, it became a pretty good team-option because so much of that self-sustain was automatically shared. You are right, without bringing group support to the table (which used to be inherent), there will NEVER be any reason to take a tanky ele. However, like was the problem near release, NO ele build will be viable without tanking up big-time (look at current d/d, it is impossible to pack ANY MORE self-defense into the build, as even doing something like taking clerics amulet makes the ele susceptible to condis and lose out on perma-vigor). So even though a max-tank spec will have enough survivability, baseline survivability of the class IS a major problem.

I also agree with you, even if an ele becomes the best tank in the game, it won’t see play if it brings no support. The key to seeing play in pvp is being proficient in a role, and having some other unique aspect that improves the team. Mesmers are proficient roaming dps, with portal. Thieves are the MOST proficient burst with highest mobility. Medi-guard is high burst, with excellent sustain and dps. Engineers have incredibly high roaming dps, with the most CC and insane survivability. The unique “thing” eles have always provided in every spec was aoe boons and cleanse, which only really works in tanky/bruiser roles (thus why dps ele was pretty much never really a thing).

With the upcoming changes, eles won’t really bring anything special to the table for ANY role. Being a jack-of-all-trades also doesn’t bring anything to the table, it just means you have no role. For a jack-of-all-trades to see play, it needs to be above-average in everything (sort of like d/d ele is now). Straight C’s just puts you squarely in the garbage-bin.

While this nerf may seem small on the current d/d bunker meta, small nerfs become huge nerfs for people running more daring builds.

It will not be the first time Anet destroys my build, they’ve done it twice already, but I urge Anet to not nerf something that is so core to the class when other classes can just Moa you and shatter on you in a few seconds.

summary of all nerfs:

10% celestial nerf, free to spend stat points = ele is forced into vitality while other classes max out important stats, arcane traitline nerf while other classes get core mechanics baseline instead of taking them away. Burn change (eles biggest dmg source) potential nerf or buff. Current state: dropping out of meta due to lack of impact / i win elite / too small support range and cloth armor in zerker meta.

BlackBeard.2873:

Laraley.7695:

Self sustain is not the problem d/d ele is facing. It’s not even the problem fresh air has. I’m gonna say this once again, sustain is fine, but due to being so squishy and depeneding on long cooldowns with having nothing more to offer to team, ele will disappear from pvp if they go on with this change and won’t make tempest at least as good as normal changes to thieves/mesmers.

I just want to clarify because a lot of people seem caught up on the nuance behind this assertion. Base-line, self-sustain IS a very-big issue for ele, thus why EVERY build currently goes so deep into water/arcana. Post-patch, max-tank eles will still have good enough self-sustain when speccing earth/water/arcana, but every single ele build will STILL be forced heavily into defense just to be on-par with every other class in terms of baseline survival capability. Even fresh-air has trouble with self-sustain due to the boons being less effective on a squishy spec AND survival tied to long CDs.

I do agree with you, under the new system, d/d will still have sufficient self-sustain (as you have indicated), but loses a LARGE portion of its team-support. In the past, any time you had an ele build that could sustain itself pretty well, it became a pretty good team-option because so much of that self-sustain was automatically shared. You are right, without bringing group support to the table (which used to be inherent), there will NEVER be any reason to take a tanky ele. However, like was the problem near release, NO ele build will be viable without tanking up big-time (look at current d/d, it is impossible to pack ANY MORE self-defense into the build, as even doing something like taking clerics amulet makes the ele susceptible to condis and lose out on perma-vigor). So even though a max-tank spec will have enough survivability, baseline survivability of the class IS a major problem.

I also agree with you, even if an ele becomes the best tank in the game, it won’t see play if it brings no support. The key to seeing play in pvp is being proficient in a role, and having some other unique aspect that improves the team. Mesmers are proficient roaming dps, with portal. Thieves are the MOST proficient burst with highest mobility. Medi-guard is high burst, with excellent sustain and dps. Engineers have incredibly high roaming dps, with the most CC and insane survivability. The unique “thing” eles have always provided in every spec was aoe boons and cleanse, which only really works in tanky/bruiser roles (thus why dps ele was pretty much never really a thing).

With the upcoming changes, eles won’t really bring anything special to the table for ANY role. Being a jack-of-all-trades also doesn’t bring anything to the table, it just means you have no role. For a jack-of-all-trades to see play, it needs to be above-average in everything (sort of like d/d ele is now). Straight C’s just puts you squarely in the garbage-bin.

Well said. Although I think this is all just going to fall on deaf ears.

One of the best thing that could be done to a more offensive oriented Elementalist is to give the Staff some more faster and reliable auto attacks.

Chain Lightning.
No longer a projectile. Instant cast like the mesmer GS that will do the 3 bounces as before (Think WoW Shaman Chain Lightning)

Fireball.
Make it a straight liner that is much faster. Keep the AOE (Add 20% blast finisher Why not? finisher)

Water Bolt.
Make it a small cone (this one might be too radical) like the Guardian staff auto. This one would deal a minimal amount of damage, but would heal by a small amount in the area.

Stoning.
Make it shoot two stones (like the warrior longbow attack). Give the the old fireball projectile behavior ( Angled shot that goes to a medium speed.) First stone applies cripple for 1 sec, Second stone applies weakness for 3 seconds (like before). (20% projectile finisher instead of 100%, a lil nerf here)

Alekt.5803:

One of the best thing that could be done to a more offensive oriented Elementalist is to give the Staff some more faster and reliable auto attacks.

Chain Lightning.
No longer a projectile. Instant cast like the mesmer GS that will do the 3 bounces as before (Think WoW Shaman Chain Lightning)

Fireball.
Make it a straight liner that is much faster. Keep the AOE (Add 20% blast finisher Why not? finisher)

Water Bolt.
Make it a small cone (this one might be too radical) like the Guardian staff auto. This one would deal a minimal amount of damage, but would heal by a small amount in the area.

Stoning.
Make it shoot two stones (like the warrior longbow attack). Give the the old fireball projectile behavior ( Angled shot that goes to a medium speed.) First stone applies cripple for 1 sec, Second stone applies weakness for 3 seconds (like before). (20% projectile finisher instead of 100%, a lil nerf here)

Fireball damage would then need to be nerfed

I am responding to this thread because I am determined to ensure the outrage at this bullkitten nerf to elementalists is at the top of every kitten forum, in the dev’s faces.

Gonna bump it again and again until ANET answers.

Quadox.7834:

Alekt.5803:

One of the best thing that could be done to a more offensive oriented Elementalist is to give the Staff some more faster and reliable auto attacks.

Chain Lightning.
No longer a projectile. Instant cast like the mesmer GS that will do the 3 bounces as before (Think WoW Shaman Chain Lightning)

Fireball.
Make it a straight liner that is much faster. Keep the AOE (Add 20% blast finisher Why not? finisher)

Water Bolt.
Make it a small cone (this one might be too radical) like the Guardian staff auto. This one would deal a minimal amount of damage, but would heal by a small amount in the area.

Stoning.
Make it shoot two stones (like the warrior longbow attack). Give the the old fireball projectile behavior ( Angled shot that goes to a medium speed.) First stone applies cripple for 1 sec, Second stone applies weakness for 3 seconds (like before). (20% projectile finisher instead of 100%, a lil nerf here)

Fireball damage would then need to be nerfed

I wouldn’t worry about that, when it comes to nerfing the ele they are fast on the trigger. I’m still angry about the mist form dual nerf (chill trait removed and then utility-healing removed) and the ride the lightning total nerf and glitching. Then the divinity runes nerf was a huge blow, then the nerf to air with the crit changes.

Alekt.5803:

One of the best thing that could be done to a more offensive oriented Elementalist is to give the Staff some more faster and reliable auto attacks.

Chain Lightning.
No longer a projectile. Instant cast like the mesmer GS that will do the 3 bounces as before (Think WoW Shaman Chain Lightning)

Fireball.
Make it a straight liner that is much faster. Keep the AOE (Add 20% blast finisher Why not? finisher)

Water Bolt.
Make it a small cone (this one might be too radical) like the Guardian staff auto. This one would deal a minimal amount of damage, but would heal by a small amount in the area.

Stoning.
Make it shoot two stones (like the warrior longbow attack). Give the the old fireball projectile behavior ( Angled shot that goes to a medium speed.) First stone applies cripple for 1 sec, Second stone applies weakness for 3 seconds (like before). (20% projectile finisher instead of 100%, a lil nerf here)

some auto-atk that’s at least somewhat decent dps-wise for 1v1’s would be cool…. Like make it possible for the chain-lightning to bounce to allies for a small buff (5-sec might, 2 sec fury or sth….). I mean: I often run Staff-Ele and I very rarely use any of the auto-atk’s. ^^

And yes, they could generally be a bit less “clunky” with higher velocities. I wouldn’t mind lower casttimes as a trade-off with lower impact of the auto-atk’s – at least I could throw 1 or 2 in there sometimes.
Staff-Ele in general feels a bit clunky and slow in terms of the weapon-skills, lot’s of fairly long to very long casttimes, channeling, long animations, low velocity of projectiles etc.
Some of it makes sense for what the Skills do, but other things makes no sense at all – like really: What the hell am I gonna do with a blind that has 1,5 s casttime? :P

I don’t really know how I feel about this thread. It comes off like saying the ele needs this to keep his rightful spot in the meta and it needs to be dd. Not all classes will be meta. From what we’ve seen ele is either balanced to be broken or useless in PvP and I get that’s annoying.

I think the bigger issue is these celestial classes. They can do so much at once, support, hold a point, damage, cc all at a very high level. Most professions have to spec so hard into a certain way they don’t get the versatility and effectiveness as these and it seems like ele having to choose between these 2 traits is them being normalized like the others. I think instead of keeping ele on par with war and engi all 3 need to be brought down to a certain extent. Either that or remove the celestial amulet so the classes that can’t use everything effectively at once aren’t forced out of the meta and anet can probably balance better knowing each amulet has a certain purpose for the profession. Like cleric will be support/sustain and zerker would be damage etc.

Just my opinion though.

L Step.8659:

I don’t really know how I feel about this thread. It comes off like saying the ele needs this to keep his rightful spot in the meta and it needs to be dd. Not all classes will be meta. From what we’ve seen ele is either balanced to be broken or useless in PvP and I get that’s annoying.

I think the bigger issue is these celestial classes. They can do so much at once, support, hold a point, damage, cc all at a very high level. Most professions have to spec so hard into a certain way they don’t get the versatility and effectiveness as these and it seems like ele having to choose between these 2 traits is them being normalized like the others. I think instead of keeping ele on par with war and engi all 3 need to be brought down to a certain extent. Either that or remove the celestial amulet so the classes that can’t use everything effectively at once aren’t forced out of the meta and anet can probably balance better knowing each amulet has a certain purpose for the profession. Like cleric will be support/sustain and zerker would be damage etc.

Just my opinion though.

Ele is actually pushed out of the meta just because he can’t do all the stuff as well as other classes (and it’s not only cele-amu either):

Shoutbow, Cele-Engi and Zerker-Medi-Guard fall into the same role as D/D-Ele and the role is basically: Be able to do everything: mobility, teamfight, sustain, dps, support, decap – you name it.

D/D just isn’t as good in teamfights as shoutbow/cele-engi and the medi-guard offers insane CC und burst. D/D is pretty much the lesser choice for every position in the current meta (as long as cele-engis aren’t getting punished in 1v1’s for lack of condi-removal, cuz in teamfights, the war takes care of that).

The only reason we still see D/D-Ele’s in the current meta is cuz ppl are comfortable with it and unwilling to play another class.