Guild Wars 2

Haven’t posted in a long time but I do believe Engineers bring a bit too much to the table, let me explain.

IP: I think everyone here can agree this needs to be changed. It is literally the mainstay to every Engineer build. You could avoid every single one of the engineer’s abilities that apply pressure and still potentially lose the fight due to the burning application.

Defensive Passive Procs; The whole point of CC is to setup burst, right? Now if I successfully cc/crit someone and they’re rewarded with a defensive boon, there’s an issue. You should not be rewarded for such passive play.

Multiple Kits: This has been a long-standing argument that needs to be brought up. Just because you have access to more skills, doesn’t mean your profession is more SKILLFUL. In fact, to the contrary, you have more buttons to apply both defensive/offensive pressure.

Uninterruptible healing skill: I have NEVER been able to successfully interrupt Healing Turret. We don’t even have to talk about the fact that it’s one of the most effective healing skills in the game.

To finish off i’m not saying there aren’t problems elsewhere because there certainly are(terrormancer, warriors still, cele’s to name a few). I’m just voicing my opinions on simple facts about this profession. Just to reiterate, anyone will drop when you have 2 or more on them bursting, this isn’t Engineer exclusive. One last thing, this post is meant to be constructive, if anyone can provide information to keep this calm discussion going, please do so.

Arken Elric

http://www.twitch.tv/bigheart_gamer

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Posted by: jcbroe.4329

jcbroe.4329

Arken.3725:
Haven’t posted in a long time but I do believe Engineers bring a bit too much to the table, let me explain.

IP: I think everyone here can agree this needs to be changed. It is literally the mainstay to every Engineer build. You could avoid every single one of the engineer’s abilities that apply pressure and still potentially lose the fight due to the burning application.

Defensive Passive Procs; The whole point of CC is to setup burst, right? Now if I successfully cc/crit someone and they’re rewarded with a defensive boon, there’s an issue. You should not be rewarded for such passive play.

Multiple Kits: This has been a long-standing argument that needs to be brought up. Just because you have access to more skills, doesn’t mean your profession is more SKILLFUL. In fact, to the contrary, you have more buttons to apply both defensive/offensive pressure.

Uninterruptible healing skill: I have NEVER been able to successfully interrupt Healing Turret. We don’t even have to talk about the fact that it’s one of the most effective healing skills in the game.

To finish off i’m not saying there aren’t problems elsewhere because there certainly are(terrormancer, warriors still, cele’s to name a few). I’m just voicing my opinions on simple facts about this profession. Just to reiterate, anyone will drop when you have 2 or more on them bursting, this isn’t Engineer exclusive. One last thing, this post is meant to be constructive, if anyone can provide information to keep this calm discussion going, please do so.

I just wanted to say that I think that good points have been made here. +1’d.

Jroh | Former SOAC Ranger Podcaster | Platinum Division Top 100 Player
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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

Having read through the thread there is a lot of hyperbole and unconstructive hostility that really doesn’t make the discussion any better. I might just make a new thread at this point; but here’s my 2 cents.

For those that will TL;DR: yes, engi has toxic mechanics, but it is not alone. Specific toxic mechanics need to go; but if Engi was middle-tier before the rune and sigil changes; is it Engi that is OP? Or the April Sigil/Rune changes?

It’s a travesty if the thread needs to take 3 pages before even a single build is posted. Below are the current “meta” builds for Engineer (disclaimer: some variations may exist between NA and EU; and there’s more than 1 good choice for certain traits/sigils/runes in certain slots)

NA Cele Engi: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpErlcx+KseNCbBNqxI6N2xq85IEgkC-TJxHwADeAAa2fAwFAoYZAA

EU Cele Engi: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpErlcxdLseNCbBNyx0GRuxq85IEgkC-TJxHwADeAAa2fAwFAoYZAA

NA Rabid Engi: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqalUUpErlcx+KseNCbBNyx0GRuxq85DEgkC-TJhHwAU2fAwJAAZZgAPAAA

EU Rabid Engi: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpEr9ZxdLseRCbBNuxAGR2xq85GEgkC-TJhHwAU2fAwJAAZZgAPAAA

Obviously variations exist but these are some of the builds I’ve observed being played.

Keystone utilities of note:

Toolkit with its 3 second mobile block frames and Pry Bar’s strong damage and strong Confusion.
Backpack regenerator being favoured for its on-point sustain for both Cele and Rabid builds that intend to fight on node and thus will take a lot of ancillary damage

Traits of note:

Prot Injection and/or Invigorating Speed – Evade frames or defensive procs on a class historically weak to stunlock
Incendiary Powder – universal to Cele and Rabid Engi; although a few run Enhanced Performance; then Shrapnel instead.
Grenadier, Grenadier, Grenadier (and the associated Steel packed Powder minor for auto-covered condis)
Speedy Kits – du jour on Engineer as the mobility is appreciated without ports or low CD leaps.

Keystone Runes of note:

Balthazar Runes being favoured for Rabid Engi. I’ve also seen Krait Runes run in EU especially with Geomancy. It’s a pretty strong Bleed stack combo.
Strength Rune being run by both NA and EU for Cele Engi; but I’ve noticed that NA also runs Hoelbrak and Leg Mods (4 in Tools) now for the decreased snare duration in Cele Engineer; especially Chaith, Vee Wee and others.

Keystone Sigils of note:

Battle, Energy. The typical apex predator on-swap combo.
EU also might run Battle, Doom or Geomancy, especially in Rabid builds.

I think it’s important to note several things that people need to acknowledge before decrying Engineer as a zero-skill class:

Spamming Grenades on point is definitely the most toxic mechanic of Engineers. But is this a problem of Grenades; or a problem of conquest, where most AOE skills eclipse the tiny size of points?
Incendiary Powder is one of the strongest crit-procs in the game. It’s been nerfed 3 times: from 33% for 2 sec every 3 seconds, to 2 seconds every 5 seconds, to 4 seconds every 10 seconds and moving Napalm Specialist to Grandmaster. And yet without it, Engineer doesn’t have the pressure from the bleed stacking capability of Necro (since Pistol 1 nerf of PBE) nor the “burst” condition application of Condi Warrior or Condi Ranger with sharpening stone.
GK Spam has ludicrous condition diversity. Bleed, Poison, Blind, Chill. IP adds Burning, SPP adds Vulnerability. But consider the actual damage of GK’s condis without those traits: 3 stacks of Bleed (~300 DPS), Blind (no damage), Chill (no damage, but is a powerful snare), Poison (~140-200 DPS).
- In no way is eating an entire Grenade Kit’s spell reel going to be dangerous. Except! if you then get an IP proc (~600-650 DPS). So is this a GK problem, or an IP problem?

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: kokiman.2364

kokiman.2364

I’m playing a condition necro, a single flame turret on point kept me from taking the point because I couldn’t damage it.

Thanks Izzy.

GuildWars 2

Currently playing Heart of Thorns.

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

Specific changes to toxic mechanics

I think at this point it should be acknowledged that Engineer as a whole is carried by and by extension tarnished by Incendiary Powder. It’s also not a new thing like IP was somehow a new trait or a new mechanic.

It’s been debated since late 2012, in fact . The conclusion of that was that nerfing IP would also require extensive rejiggering (yes this is a word) of Engineer autoattacks; specifically Pistol 1, Rifle 1 and FT1.

I would also say that prior to the April Sigil/Rune patch, IP was “balanced” – if you could call undodgeable, unblockable crit procs “balanced”. There were no ridiculous Might stacks to push burning up to ~700 DPS; nor was there Balthazar runes to push Burning to 7 seconds; nor indeed, could Engineer run double swap sigils (instead Engi ran the much more balanced Corruption sigil or forewent Energy for damage over survivability). Now the opportunity cost for Engineer builds has decreased – more evade frames, more damage; less bad matchups – so I ask again, is Engi OP? Or Runes and Sigils?

The easiest nerf to Engi would be a nerf to Strength, Hoelbrak, Balthazar runes, and Battle, Energy, Geomancy Sigils. In this climate of double swap sigils, the power level has gone up, but the traits and skills themselves are not in anyway diminished. So it would be easier to nerf the outliers than change the trait.

However! This does not mean that IP is not terrible design. In fact it’s horrible, lazy, despicable design that carries Engineers harder than individual skills, but Engineers run it because without IP Engineers have no pressure. As I mentioned before, even eating an entire GK spell reel – all grenades to the face – in a condi build – is ~ 500 condition based DPS. Only when you add IP to the mix does Engi become scary. (1100-1200 condition based DPS; the variability being Sharpshooter/Shrapnel procs or Pistol1 or EG1)

A nerf to crit procs like IP – and this is a design template that could be applied to all crit-procs could be like this:

Incendiary Powder – Critical hits grant you an Incendiary Powder charge. Charges last for 5 seconds and stack up to 2. When you use a toolbelt skill, inflict Burning on your next attack for 2 seconds per stack of Incendiary Powder. You cannot build up more than 1 charge per second. ICD 10-15 seconds. (debatable)
- This mechanic decouples Critical hits from the actual proc; thus ensuring that Blocking, dodging, Aegis, heck, even side-stepping being hit by the Engineer means that Engi cannot build up his stacks.
- Tying it to next attack again, means that IP can now be blocked, dodged, etc. If anything, the TB requirement makes IP even weaker and it could even be Adept tier after this.
- For telegraph reasons, make the IP empowered skill have a fiery trail like the Predator’s Grenades and Rifle autoattacks; just with a different colour and particle effect. The important thing is fire; and telegraphing that Fire = Bad

A charge mechanic also decouples IP from being strongly influenced by +Condition duration mechanics. This is an extremely important “future-proofing” of the trait against further, future power creep.

Burning damage is all about hitting +Condition Duration breakpoints; because more ticks hit harder than trying to scale up the power of individual ticks as Burning does not scale with intensity.
As IP got “nerfed” it became easier and easier to hit % +Condition Duration breakpoints.
- With 2 seconds per 3 seconds, 50% was required to get full burning uptime; yet required a high Precision investment as well. Thus Teldo’s build would also put 20 points in Firearms, plus Rabid, plus Sigil of Accuracy.
- With 2 seconds per 5 seconds, again, 50% and more was required to get an extra tick out of IP. In my opinion, IP could have been left like this at this point because it’s extremely difficult to hit extra breakpoints beyond 3 seconds outside of WvW’s obscene food bonuses
- The “nerf” of IP to 4 seconds per 10 seconds again made hitting extra ticks of Burning super easy. 25% (easily achievable with 30 explosives) was easily reached for 5 seconds; IP may as well have read – inflict burning for 5 seconds on Crit. Balthazar runes let people hit 75% – 7.5 seconds – that’s 3 extra ticks; or a bonus 1800-2100 damage over time (!!!).
- With Charges individually locked to 2 seconds, balancing becomes a lot more granular. You now must hit the 50% breakpoint, just like 2013 Engineers did, to get a bonus 2 ticks out of IP; yet IP’s growth beyond those 2 extra ticks is impossible barring WvW Food – but is that an IP problem, or a WvW Food problem?

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

More changes – if required

Honestly IP is the only thing that’s making Engineer silly right now. However, the OP did outline wanting to eliminate all of Engi’s toxic mechanics, so here’s more. It must be said, however, that these nerfs should apply to all classes. The power level in this game has never been higher; and the skill floor of this game has never been lower; yet build diversity for many professions have not diverged in any significant way since 2013. When Allie Murdock promised to shake up the meta in 2014 post December Patch; what she really meant was that people would use new sigils and runes instead; and some old builds like D/D ele or LB ranger would re-appear.

So! On to “difficult to counter” mechanics of the Engineer. Not necessarily toxic, but difficult to counterplay.

Arken brought up how hard Healing Turret was to interrupt. Granted, this is from a Guardian perspective where most interrupts are 3/4 cast or higher; whilst Engineer HT is a 1/2 cast. MoD Mesmer or even Shatter Mesmer, Thief, Mace Warrior, Ele running anything but Staff; Necro all have pretty good ways to Interrupt the HT heal.

It’s of note that the placement is 1/2 cast, the Overcharge is 0 cast but does have active interruptible frames (Don’t ask me how that works; just know that Cleansing Burst is interruptible even though it’s off GCD)
The placement of HT is harder to interrupt than the Overcharge. Often it’s my OC of HT that’s interrupted than the placement, which is bizzare; yet strangely okay. Here’s why:
- The Overcharge of HT is what cleanses, provides the water field, and provides Regeneration. So getting that Interrupted as opposed to a 2.5k heal is arguably more devastating.
- That said, 1/2 cast of any spell in this game is problematic if it’s not a skillshot. This is because unless you’re playing from North America, your ping is likely to be 150-200+ MS. Average human reaction time is ~200-250MS; with people that have better reflexes having somewhat less than 200MS. This means that the average reaction time + latency makes any halfcast extremely difficult to interrupt.

A potential “fix” – if even a problem exists – is to increase the placement time to 3/4 cast. But I would argue that there are heals that are far, far more toxic in this game; like:
Ele Signet of Restoration with stow-cancelled Lightning Whip. Also Ele couples that with extremely high HPS from Regeneration, Water Healing Mist, Water 3, and healing weapon skills in Water. Super strong.
Warrior Healing Signet (arguably less problematic now with the adrenaline nerfs reducing Warrior’s output but no less passive for that – yet it outcompetes active skills requiring active use (Mending, Surge). Mind boggling.)
Thief Withdraw. Zero cast with Evade Frames? Sign me up.
Guardian Shelter. Impossible to interrupt unless using unblockables; but balanced by its long cast time. Makes some guardian matchups extremely binary.

In short, Healing Turret could be nerfed, but I don’t think it’s that problematic right now. Half-casts in this game are generally overpowered. Expect Signet Condi ele to become the new “impossible to counterplay their cast times” with the buff. Half cast zero travel time Pin Down on Earth Signet? Sign me up.

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

Arken’s points about multiple kits

I think it’s interesting that the multiple kits argument gets brought up a lot; especially by people that have little exposure to Engineer. This is not to say that 1 second kit swaps aren’t strong – on the contrary – kit swaps allow Engineer an unprecedented number of animation cancels and allow Engi to proc on-swap Sigils with zero opportunity cost. But I do think that the argument is made in a vacuum without considering the broader ramifications of Engineer balance:

Engineer skills have very specific utility scattered across all kits. No single kit functions as a weapon on its own right. Each skill should be comboed with a Utility (gadget, Turret) or another kit skill from another kit to get the most out of it. The only “spammy” kit is Grenade Kit.

It’s also important to note that Grenade Kit stands on its own as one of the last, unnerfed kits the Engineer has. How’s that for build diversity? Let us count the reasons:

Flamethrower was nerfed from giving Stability on swap to Might on hold. Engineers now take Protection Injection and/or Invigorating Speed and a Stunbreak. Flamethrower also lost it’s AOE Pull Backdraft which was apparently OP; yet Mesmer Focus or Guardian GS have lower cooldowns and greater pull distance. Subsequent buffs have added a Detonate chain skill and blast finisher to FT2 but FT to me is already dead.
Elixir Gun was nerfed from PBE to make its skills no longer count as Elixirs. Ever wonder why EG skills have the Elixir Tag? . EG lost 3 Condition cleanses from CF409. Now Engi is weak to Conditions, because that is apparently a “designed in weakness”. Not to the pre-release designers it wasn’t. The KR nerf to remove double Super Elixir whilst justified (800HPS is a little too strong) also removed condition cleanse without compensation.
Bomb Kit Smoke Bomb and Glue Bomb were nerfed, whilst Concussion Bomb was inexplicably buffed to 5 stacks. Now people wonder why Engineer runs around “spamming” Bombs off cooldown. Well, Engineers spam because BK isn’t good for much now beyond its condition diversity. At least with old Glue Bomb you could set up bursts with 2 seconds Immobilise. As it is now it’s just as spammy as GK. I also miss the Elixir X Big Ol Bomb wombo combo.
Med Kit was nerfed – first a stealth nerf to Drop Antidote to cleanse less conditions (tooltip still read condition*s* until September 2014); then again, with the Kit Refinement nerf that took away the damage on swap (all 0.6 power coefficient of it)
Toolkit was buffed. Pry Bar, Drop Nails, Magnet Pull, heck, even Gear Shield buffed. September 2014 even buffed the autoattack. It must be said, however, that prior to the buffs, only Gear Shield was worth considering. So is that a buff to build diversity? Debatable.
GK had its autoattack coefficient nerfed by 33% (from 0.4 to 0.33 per grenade) aand that’s about it.

So the point that “all engineers do is spam Grenades” is well made but! It also is disingenuous because it ignores Engineer’s patch history. Engineers spam because their kits have been successively nerfed in many cases.

In fact the only trait that encouraged intelligent swapping – Kit Refinement – was Smiter’s Booned. At least with on swap you didn’t want to swap to a kit to proc a needless KR spell. Now? Swap all day for fun and games.

If anything Grenade Kit should be nerfed in this way, with the other Kits brought up forthwith:

Grenade Kit now throws only 1 Grenade at full power. Eliminates GK’s capability to balloon on-crit and on-hit procs out of control due to triple hits. Grenade Barrage now throws 6 stronger grenades. Traited with Grenadier, Barrage also Cripples. Grenades still a 180 radius explosive, but now can be traited up to 210 radius with Forceful Explosives.
Steel Packed Powder now procs 3 stacks of Vulnerability, but only for BK 1 and GK1. Normalises BK1 and GK1’s Vuln stacking capability but eliminates auto-covered conditions on the rest of the kits. SPP now stacks Vulnerability up to 6 on Grenade Barrage and Bomb Kit Big Ol’ Bomb.

This ends the Grenade Kit specific changes.

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPrtbxkLseNCbBNyx8GRuxq85GEglC-TJRHwAFeAAAuAAk2f4YZAA

Other changes to Kit Engineer:
In general:

Move Kit Refinement from Adept to Master or GM. Give KR a lower GCD (10-15 seconds) or individual ICDs for procs (20 seconds)
Give Engineers more control as to when to proc KR. Replacing the “drop kit” when a kit is swapped to on the utility bar with a Chain Skill that instead drops the Kit and procs KR is what is needed for KR to see the light of day again.

Bomb Kit

Forceful explosives increases BK radii only by 30 units instead.
Bomb Kit now throws bombs 120 units ahead of the Engineer and the Bombs are larger and colour coded. Bombs thus become another “melee” kit for the Engineer.
Power Coefficients for Bomb Kit should be shifted around.
- BK1 should be nerfed to 1.1 Coefficient – 10% more than GK1 with triple hit. ** Fire Bomb should go from 0.2 coefficient over 4 ticks to 0.4 coefficient over 4 ticks. Burning decreased to 1-1.5 seconds.
- Concussion Bomb should revert to 3 stacks of Confusion. Now deals 0.8 coefficient base; increasing by 0.2 per snare (Chill, Immobilise, Cripple)
- This makes Power Bombs an actual thing, whilst improving intelligent play of BK instead of spamming 1-5 on point. You now have motivation to snare people within Fire Bomb to get the full Burn; and to save Concussion Bomb to last.

Elixir Gun

Cleanse 1 condition on self with the last tick of Fumigate. This raises multikit Engineers cleanses per minute by 4-5…but only if they channel Fumigate fully; which is an easily interrupted 2.5 second cast.

Flamethrower

Smoke Vent should again, cleanse 1 condition on self. Alternatively, bring back the mini-Cleansing Flame on Kit Refinement for Flamethrower instead of that awful Flame Aura that does nothing significant.
Flame Jet should have half the number of pulses but doubled individual tick strength; i.e. 5 pulses for the same damage. Which is still retaliation bait, by the way; given that FJ still has the lowest coefficient per second of all of Engineer’s autoattacks

Tool Kit

Nerf Gear Shield’s block frames by 1 second. 3 seconds per 16 when traited is a little much.
Fix Magnet desync. Especially the one that throws people 1200 units in the air so they die from fall damage. . Barring that, give Magnet a 60 second cooldown and instead make Magnet do that 100% of the time. Gravity OP. (One of these sentences is sarcasm)

Med Kit

Packaged Stimulants despite what the trait description says, somehow makes the kit worse than baseline. This is because the 0.5 cast isn’t 0.5 cast – it’s closer to almost 1 full second including windup and aftercast. Add travel time to PS and Med Kit’s tiny, tiny hitboxes and it’s simply bad.
Packaged Stimulants should heal in an area on impact – say; 180 radius.
Reduce the windup of Med Kit 1-3.
Barring that, introduce some actual creativity into the Med Kit so skills 1-3 do different things :
- Skill1 is now an Autoinjector autoattack. Hitting Allies with it heals them for 400 (0.1 Healing Power scaling) per 1 second in melee (130 radius). Hitting Enemies with it steals 400 health per 1 second (0.1 Healing Power Scaling)
- Skill 2 is now the Drop Bandage skill on 6 seconds cooldown.
- Skill 3 is a short gap closer (300 units) to allies that heals and cleanses 2 conditions on them, and 1 condition on self. Cannot gap close to enemies. 25 second cooldown. There needs to be more altruistic skills in this game.

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: The Gates Assassin.9827

The Gates Assassin.9827

MonMalthias.4763:
I think it’s important to note several things that people need to acknowledge before decrying Engineer as a zero-skill class:

Spamming Grenades on point is definitely the most toxic mechanic of Engineers. But is this a problem of Grenades; or a problem of conquest, where most AOE skills eclipse the tiny size of points?

There’s a lot of builds that can do this too though. Mesmer off point pressure is arguably just as strong. Same with thief shortbow and a warrior dumping burning on an entire team. Because AI builds in the game are so silly strong and common, this needs to exist as a viable counter to those kinds of things.

MonMalthias.4763:

Incendiary Powder is one of the strongest crit-procs in the game. It’s been nerfed 3 times: from 33% for 2 sec every 3 seconds, to 2 seconds every 5 seconds, to 4 seconds every 10 seconds and moving Napalm Specialist to Grandmaster. And yet without it, Engineer doesn’t have the pressure from the bleed stacking capability of Necro (since Pistol 1 nerf of PBE) nor the “burst” condition application of Condi Warrior or Condi Ranger with sharpening stone.

MonMalthias.4763:

GK Spam has ludicrous condition diversity. Bleed, Poison, Blind, Chill. IP adds Burning, SPP adds Vulnerability. But consider the actual damage of GK’s condis without those traits: 3 stacks of Bleed (~300 DPS), Blind (no damage), Chill (no damage, but is a powerful snare), Poison (~140-200 DPS).

In no way is eating an entire Grenade Kit’s spell reel going to be dangerous. Except! if you then get an IP proc (~600-650 DPS). So is this a GK problem, or an IP problem?

Amen. I think a lot more of the actual condition damage needs to be sunk into the skills by default instead of traited for so they can be applied by an auto attack.

That’s the thing about a lot of builds in this game. It’s not the skills themselves. Engis who are making huge mistakes are able to win fights simply because their “big cool down” is easy to land. It requires little skill on the part of the enemy and high skill on the part of the defender. IP can proc off of pistol auto attacks, which are incredibly easy to land, and sometimes, are required to soak up simply because there’s more dangerous stuff coming in such as a magnet pull or nades.

If this game didn’t have most of the sigils that exist right now, I think we’d have a MUCH easier time balancing everything out. Imagine all the builds you think are OP without these sigils in it:

Battle
Energy
Fire
Air
Blood
Doom
Geomancy

If anything, I think these 7 deadly sigils should be looked at first rather than the builds themselves because these are really what create insane builds that are easy to play. I’d love to test every build in the game with this:

Battle – Grants 3 stacks of might for 10s (down from 20s)
Energy – Grants 2s of vigor.
Fire – Can’t crit anymore.
Air – Changed to give 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8s.
Doom – Reduced to 4s of poison.
Geomancy – Reduced to 3 stacks for 2s.

Just to see if it makes them more managable. Of course there would be some builds that are super strong (for example warriors since there would be less doom sigil going around). That said, I think the majority of builds would become a lot easier to balance and the true outliers would become more apparent.

Sigils right now seem to be so crazily build defining and to me, that should be just a minor boost.

Main: Raine Avina (Engineer)
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Posted by: sinject.4607

sinject.4607

make grenades have a "danger close" zone where if thrown too closely to the engineer they self-inflict conditions or damage to both the engineer and their turrets. or just make it so they can’t throw nades within their immediate area and then make nades travel 33% faster. otherwise, nades get to act as both nades and bombs while being even better at doing what bombkit is supposed to do thanks to their instant fuse at short range and they give 3 chances at minimum to proc IP

staff acro

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Posted by: Chaith.8256

Chaith.8256

sinject.4607:
make grenades have a “danger close” zone where if thrown too closely to the engineer they self-inflict conditions or damage to both the engineer and their turrets. or just make it so they can’t throw nades within their immediate area and then make nades travel 33% faster. otherwise, nades get to act as both nades and bombs while being even better at doing what bombkit is supposed to do thanks to their instant fuse at short range and they give 3 chances at minimum to proc IP

Hahaha. Simply put, friendly fire is just a path that leads nowhere positive for the game.

Also, instant fuse at short range for bombs? Bombs are ridiculously slow and avoidable – I’d go so far as to say they’re only usable on immobilized, point-committed, and downed bodies. Counter-pressuring a mobile Thief or Mesmer, for example, with bombs, I would go so far as to say that this is extremely rare. Unless they deem it ‘worth’ and eat some ticks of a fire bomb for a good reason, of course.

Yes, grenades are too good, compared to bombs. It has that snap 1v1 counter-pressure, where the Engineer really has little access to that, otherwise. Thats why in PvP, Grenade-less builds don’t really happen.

I’d love to use Bombs instead of Grenades, for a change. Maybe change Autodefense Bomb Dispenser trait to remove the fuse time of bombs (not the casting time, and not Big Ol’ Bomb). That would mean it would be unable to be used with grenades in the same build.

I’d totally run this build, then!

Forum Lord Chaith
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Posted by: PachTrick.3601

PachTrick.3601

Well, they could be troublesome when everything is set up.

As I main thief, I make sure that I’m the one who strike first, and I strike safely, I don’t let my enemies get ready, I strike from nowhere.

If things were set up, then that’s a trap you shouldn’t walk into.

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Monmalthias brings up some really good points, a lot of these changes would most certainly make the engineer rely more on the actual skills their using instead of the traits doing the work for them.

I still want to bring up the topic of defensive traits. Protective shield/Injection are also poorly designed traits. The whole purpose of CCing someone is to setup burst, why reward someone who was unable to avoid it with damage reduction? Maybe attaching some of these to skills or maybe gain protection when successfully stun-breaking out of a skill?

Edit: Once again, i’m sure quite a few professions have access to some of these but the discussion here are Engineer’s.

Arken Elric

http://www.twitch.tv/bigheart_gamer

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Arken.3725:
Monmalthias brings up some really good points, a lot of these changes would most certainly make the engineer rely more on the actual skills their using instead of the traits doing the work for them.

I still want to bring up the topic of defensive traits. Protective shield/Injection are also poorly designed traits. The whole purpose of CCing someone is to setup burst, why reward someone who was unable to avoid it with damage reduction? Maybe attaching some of these to skills or maybe gain protection when successfully stun-breaking out of a skill?

Edit: Once again, i’m sure quite a few professions have access to some of these but the discussion here are Engineer’s.

Engineer is the best against CC in a 5v5 environment ^^ so good my only stun break is with Elixir Gun love the CD.

There needs to be some degree of “passive trait” since the options are limited,could fix the options but I am low on expectations.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

(edited 2014-10-12 19:02:27 by Sagat.3285)

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Except that degree of passiveness is toxic for the game. Maybe add more stun-breakers to the Engineer’s kitten nal?

Arken Elric

http://www.twitch.tv/bigheart_gamer

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Arken.3725:
Except that degree of passiveness is toxic for the game. Maybe add more stun-breakers to the Engineer’s kitten nal?

I said could fix option but….
-Are they toxic in team environment or the forbidden 1v1?
-Do we trust balance or have personal opinions?

It’s interesting talking balance in pvp when conquest is the main mode and courtyard a let down.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Not so much of a forbidden thing in 1v1 as it’s a crutch to the player who got hit with cc. You’re essentially being rewarded by getting hit, contrary to the games design.

Arken Elric

http://www.twitch.tv/bigheart_gamer

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

I meant that the 1v1 argument is poor and personal but that is their way of helping engi with CC weakness. There is a lot that should change about the game but I lack the trust,patience and bravery to use my time to do much about it.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

(edited 2014-10-12 22:14:57 by Sagat.3285)

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Posted by: Penguin.5197

Penguin.5197

I can see ip being changed for more counterplay just don’t forget to buff pistol aa. But some of you guys are hilarious trying to get every trait and kit changed to something that your class can roll over through. Don’t like protection injection? Sorry but its our protection against cheese. Stop spamming knockdowns and you will find it easier to deal with the engineer.

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

Arken.3725:
I still want to bring up the topic of defensive traits. Protective shield/Injection are also poorly designed traits. The whole purpose of CCing someone is to setup burst, why reward someone who was unable to avoid it with damage reduction? Maybe attaching some of these to skills or maybe gain protection when successfully stun-breaking out of a skill?

These traits are fine. They lessen incoming damage, but don’t completely negate it and are mostly predictable. Your burst wasn’t completely negated – most of it got through. You just can’t rely on one CC and burst to explode an engi.

In comparison, abilities which comletely negate the CC are problematic. Compare Protection Injection to necromancer’s Reaper’s Protection (chance to fear when hit) and you’ll see that the engi version is decently balanced.

Having professions that aren’t as susceptible to burst damage adds variety to the game. You have elementalists which are good against sustain but weak to burst. What’s wrong with something that’s weak to CC and sustain, but not as weak against burst?

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: Chaith.8256

Chaith.8256

Arken.3725:
Not so much of a forbidden thing in 1v1 as it’s a crutch to the player who got hit with cc. You’re essentially being rewarded by getting hit, contrary to the games design.

No engineer meta builds are using prot injection anymore. Or protective shield. They’re only worth it vs. Mace or hammer warriors, really, which aren’t hugely concerning. Vigor is decidedly universally better.

Forum Lord Chaith
Twitch.tv/chaithh
New Twitter: @chaithhh

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Posted by: JinDaVikk.7291

JinDaVikk.7291

runes and sigils + cele ammy are major offenders. Tbh cele wouldn’t be so strong if certain skills weren’t so strong with limited stat investment.

I’ve hit 6k pry bars on cele. That shouldn’t happen.
I’ve hit 4k auto attacks on mace warrior with cele. That shouldn’t happen.
6k fire grabs, (my cele staff ele could proc 2k with ice bow per hit. Thats just dumb)
Cele ranger doesn’t seem to have much power damage but.. the passive traits are lol.

Several Rune sets are still un-avoidable/dodgable/blockable/blindable they only bothered to fix balth.
Air, Fire, Battle, Geomancy (would be nearly worthless if it wasn’t for conquest fight on point style game), condi xfer sigil (rng can be fight decider), Hoelbrak, Strength, Doom (giving poison access to eles, warriors makes them decent condition builds. remove doom and ele will never kill anything not glass 1v1)

They buffed amulet critical damage AND gave us cele same time. Add in the runes + sigil changes and you have OP across the board.

Fix the bugs. Nerfs some runes/sigils. Change the stupid passive mechanics ( ALL PROFESSIONS) then balance.

lol.

Team Radioactive
Crysis, Lil Damage, Ovi, Jindavikk, Guard
Causing cancer all day.

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

Chaith.8256:
Arken.3725:
Not so much of a forbidden thing in 1v1 as it’s a crutch to the player who got hit with cc. You’re essentially being rewarded by getting hit, contrary to the games design.

No engineer meta builds are using prot injection anymore. Or protective shield. They’re only worth it vs. Mace or hammer warriors, really, which aren’t hugely concerning. Vigor is decidedly universally better.

Right; with the recent dearth of warriors, the value of Protection Injection becomes decidedly less. That being said, it’s a good tossup between Invigorating Speed and Protection Injection. I would say the only “less flexible” pick in this case would be Backpack Regenerator in Master tier.

Again as I mentioned previously there’s more than 1 viable pick in the current meta builds running 4-6 Alchemy. They’re all good in the context of different team comps you’re facing.

With specific reference to Protection Injection as a passive CC mitigation tool, Engineer is not alone in this respect . Every class can slot traits that can mitigate CC in one way or another; although some traits are definitely better than others.

PI is strong because it offers a low cooldown passive for incomplete mitigation. The counter-CC traits of other classes – especially those that “reflect” incoming CC with CC of their own, have long cooldowns of 40-60 seconds. See: Mirror of Anguish and Reaper’s Protection . Incomplete but strong mitigators, such as Stealth, Shadowsteps, Shocking Aura all have intermediate cooldowns. Engineer’s PI and Warrior’s Last Stand definitely stand tall as one of the strongest counter-CC traits. In terms of absolute uptime, PI is perhaps the highest and for the least opportunity cost (Adept; where most others are Master+ Tier).

Given these things it’s easy to see why Engineers would choose to forsake stunbreaks entirely and rely on PI (Teldo 2012-2013) or instead rely on evade frames – Battle/Energy and/or Invigorating Speed. Vee Wee favours Adventurer Runes. Some Power builds favour Adrenal Implant. But PI is a good perennial pick precisely because it allows Engineer to focus on its best sources of damage mitigation; which is CC output, Block frames and Vigour uptime.

This begs the question then of whether PI is too much. After all it’s the highest uptime, lowest cooldown CC mitigation but again, it’s partial. Prot does nothing against Condi Necro or Condi Engi; nor Shatter Mesmer that will rip the Prot; nor Cele Ele/Warrior that has Burning through Prot. There are so many bad matchups in the meta right now that straight up ignore the presence of PI that like Chaith said, Engis (in NA) are now favouring more evade frames and sustain (BP Regen).

As for my opinion; I would much, much rather that PI be deleted and the following occur:

Super Speed now breaks snares (Immobilise, Cripple, Chill) and Stun.
Rumble itself is fine; it’s just coupled to a toxic build at the moment. (Triple/Quad Turret)
Elixir Gun Regenerating Mist cleansed 1 Condition on Self and the AOE Regeneration reduced in duration to 5 seconds.
Elixir U reworked entirely away from Quickness. Perhaps 2 frames of reflected CC; or a tool for Down State control.
Utility Goggles just needs better trait support. In particular, Condition cleanse on Gadgets, and a form of sustain similar to Guardian Meditations – a mini-heal on the most situational utilities in the game to help glass builds.
Elixir C become a Stunbreak

Barring that, PI should be reworked to grant Aegis upon using a Toolbelt skill with 30 seconds ICD; that resets when the Engineer is controlled. In this way, Engineer can stop the CC pain train by blocking the next incoming attack; but only as long as Toolbelt cooldowns remain. Or just keep it simple and make it grant Aegis on being Controlled for 4 seconds every 10 seconds; so multi-hit skills can get through.

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: Steb.2571

Steb.2571

So Chaith, I assume you saw TOG yesterday. Still feel like engi is balanced?

Trick question, we already know the answer.

IGN: Steb
Team: Blacklisted [Envy]

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Posted by: KrisHQ.4719

KrisHQ.4719

Engineer is probably the best class atm.
Some of the skills are totally out of balance, though that does not necessarily make them gamebreakingly OP.
The fact that Poison Grenade can stack like 20s AoE poison is ridiculous.
And yes. Im aware that I should not stand in the circles, but that can be a little difficult in a 1v1 situation, where I dont want him to decap. The radius is also pretty solid since there are 3 fields.
Another thing is the health of turrets. I really only noticed this today where I specifically went for his Thumper Turret that was left behind. I simply could not kill it, not in time at least.
A turret should IMO be fairly easy to kill. This requires the engi to actually think about his turret placement, while nerfing that spec all the same.

Because let’s be honest there is a paradox here.

Logically ALL specs should be equally viable, but some builds are simply toxic for the game, which is for instance an AI build like Turret-Engineer. Having such specs in the meta is not good for the game, and then I don’t give a crap about equality rights.
They lower the skill-floor so much, that everyone can go into the game and be instantly beneficial for their team. That is not healthy for a competitive gamemode, and whether you want it or not, sPvP is and was designed to be.

Oh. And I forgot to mention Incendiary Powder. Why is that still in the game?
Since it’s a TRAIT it should as maximum grant 3s of burning including the available condi duration in sPvP, as long as its cooldown remain 10s.

Lysis Kawahara – D/D Elementalist
Zaphiel Faires – DPS Guardian

(edited 2014-10-13 17:29:03 by KrisHQ.4719)

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Posted by: SPESHAL.9106

SPESHAL.9106

Anybody who doesn’t think Incendiary Powder is not over-budget for a master trait is just delusional.

However, you’re welcome to continue embarrassing yourself with arguments to the contrary.

Eventually Anet will realize the obvious…it just takes them awhile…see eles 1 year ago and warriors for the past year.

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Posted by: JinDaVikk.7291

JinDaVikk.7291

Incoming responses:

Steb we all know you cant beat a single engi stop the hate man.
Did you see how many eles were in the tournament? In EU rangers were more popular than engis lol.

Speshal you cannot compare traits between classes or what level they are on. For example I could argue my grandmaster trait in a horrid line for 50 percent vigor while warriors can get that passive on a signet or how rangers get 25 percent for 1 trait point lol.

Kris dont harp on engis for turrets. Arenanet made them immune to condis, crits, NOT us. Dont blame engis we dont want turrets viable/in existence either. (not for pvp atleast)

Monmath – Thats an interesting idea except 1 major flaw. If we are cc’d we CANNOT use tool-belts unless they are instant/ stun break. Which defeats your entire idea’s purpose lol. Tbh PI is better balanced than most other professions cc mechanics as RNG ( or guessing) decides when the cooldown is up. There isn’t a way to accurately guess when the cd is gone where PI is always up unless it just proc’d.

Kris- I can argue SO MANY other professions having high duration conditions in aoe fields. Hell some Aoe fields are un-avoidable in conquest fighting. Poison grenades are not the issue with nades… the long distance high damage aoe is.

the more you guys argue that engi is the issue the more I LOL. This GAME has ALOT of broken mechanics/stupid things. Engis are by far not the only culprit.

You want these things changed? Then mention all the professions who abuse them.

Or I’ll just start threads assaulting your classes and their dumb mechanics.

Cough.

Thief – stealth and its limited counter play. (tele-ports are un-riveled too)
Ranger – just if not more passive than engi.
Warrior- So many immunities/passive built in with biggest aoe field possible. Highest hp + toughness + condi removal in game (only eles beat warrior condi removal)
Elementalist – highest condi removal + basically took guardians role but 100 percent passive.

Take out celestial amulet for now. That seems to be the main culprit unless you want to re-make a huge percentage of gw2 skills/traits/mechanics.

Team Radioactive
Crysis, Lil Damage, Ovi, Jindavikk, Guard
Causing cancer all day.

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Posted by: Azure The Heartless.3261

Azure The Heartless.3261

Chaith.8256:
Thief spotted

Yep, it sucks for you that those things counter you hard when you 1v1 an Engineer who’s in a defensive position.

Engineer is a great profession, but it dies in about ~5 seconds to a Thief/Necro, Mesmer/Thief, or Necro/Engi coordinated burst.

I don’t get how you think “Just DT it” is a reasonable remedy for “Engie is broken 1v1”. Mind explaining?

Because IMO an engie being able to completely decap a point passively by dropping turrets on it and letting them autotarget any nearby enemies isnt very balanced.

Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.

(edited 2014-10-13 19:51:57 by Azure The Heartless.3261)

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Posted by: Poledra Val.1490

Poledra Val.1490

What would amuse me no end is if Anet changed the Supply Crate elite skill and leaned it towards the actual “player” to micro manage each and every one of those little turrets that they just love to use.

It would increase the learning curve of an engineer by a country mile and in all honesty and it would give players who use the engineer much more recognition rather then “one button does it all” lazy automatons.

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

^Dreams are strong on this one.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Arken.3725

Just re posting what I had in another thread that got closed. Simple fix for now: Remove Celestial amulet and Might runes. Introduce them later when they’ve been extensively tested. Also, remove Settlers while you’re at it.

Edit: Also, this might sting a bit but I believe Rabid needs to be looked at. A lot of these amulets are really profession specific. You’ll never see a Guardian/Thief/Elementalist run it because of the low-tier health. By having medium-high tier health, the other professions can run it while maintaining their sustain through physical mitigation from said amulet.

Arken Elric

http://www.twitch.tv/bigheart_gamer

(edited 2014-10-13 22:28:17 by Arken.3725)

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Arken.3725:
Just re posting what I had in another thread that got closed. Simple fix for now: Remove Celestial amulet and Might runes. Introduce them later when they’ve been extensively tested. Also, remove Settlers while you’re at it.

Edit: Also, this might sting a bit but I believe Rabid needs to be looked at. A lot of these amulets are really profession specific. You’ll never see a Guardian/Thief/Elementalist run it because of the low-tier health. By having medium-high tier health, the other professions can run it while maintaining their sustain through physical mitigation from said amulet.

Removal doesn’t happen..oh wait war rifle bleed…you forgot how it affect other spec and classes,conquest favors long fights,combo field usage,bunker need more modes so the meta is variant.

I’m assuming all the pro on nerfing those spec are glassies with no counter against them #zerkerpvpers

Too bad zerk damage is weaker in pvp and jewels are no more.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

(edited 2014-10-13 22:41:26 by Sagat.3285)

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Posted by: Arken.3725

It might not happen but it should be considered. Passive stats carrying you is not what this game is about. Risk/reward is what’s need. Berserkers /Rampagers/Carrion/Clerics is the definition of that.

Arken Elric

http://www.twitch.tv/bigheart_gamer

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Posted by: Sagat.3285