Guild Wars 2

Whats the minimum viewers to become esports?

http://i.imgur.com/OkKti7T.png

/irony

WoW at its lowest has 10 times more viewers than gw2 at its highest and isn’t considered an esport by the majority. 1600 viewers is nothing in the esports world.

I don’t think you need a certain amount of viewers to become esports but if that would be the case, 1.6k viewers is way too low.

If you look at the real esports a single player can have up to 10x or 20x the amount of viewers GW2 has. Huge tournaments would be somewhere between 50k – 300k.

GW2 has 2k viewers when something special like a tournament happens or one of the big youtube channels plays the game but that’s it.

The average amount of viewers is not even close to esports.

Lol…esports. The answer to that question came once we saw how much attention anet pays to spvp/tpvp. If they wanted it, it could’ve been done already. But alas, the focus of this game is pve

It will be quite some time till GW2 reaches the level of other eSports.

Bhawb.7408:

It will be quite some time till GW2 reaches the level of other eSports.

Logic doesn’t work on complainers well. They have to see it to believe or otherwise the booooootrainn

No one got the irony ):

#believe in esports

still.. its the most attention given to a gw2 stream to date. And it was just the first one. Things like this will get anets attention, despite the attention or lack there of given from the devs so far.

still.. its the most attention given to a gw2 stream to date. And it was just the first one. Things like this will get anets attention, despite the attention or lack there of given from the devs so far.Good job to all who were involved

Rerroll.9083:

No one got the irony ):

#believe in esports

I still don’t see the irony in your post.

Not completely the casters fault, more that 3 fights are happening in 3 different places so its practically impossible to really go in depth into every little thing, as chaotic as it is.

I couldnt do what they do i applaud their effort. A wasted effort unless ANET steps up but still. Wonder how many people that are heralding the new coming of esport from that tournament have actually seen the play and casting opportunities in a dota 2 tournament. This wont compare, ever.

Tbh I think casting GW2 is pretty difficult in general.

There are things happening all over the map like it does in any esports but GW2 has 1 huge disadvantage:

The graphics.

There are way too many spell animations and they are way to flashy. No viewer will be able to follow what is happening because of all the things going on even in a single fight.

No matter which esports you think about they don’t have this problem.

• CS? Nope.
• LoL? No.
• Dota2? Nice animations but still no.
• SC? There is a lot going on on the screen but it’s still not as bad.
• …

Maybe they should give an option to reduce these animations for spectators and players. Besides that something like a cast bar to know which skill is used would also help.

In the end there is still a lot to do to make it easier/better for casters and viewers.

It blows my mind that people are here saying these things just to be reactionary. Everyone knows the GW2 pvp scene is only just beginning to build up in terms of streams. Obviously it wont have the same numbers as other more established games.

You are trolls are you are wasting everyone`s time, including your own.

Here, this attachment better represents views in this game. Only Time I see the numbers reached in OP post was during state of the game updates…euro truck simulator made me laugh. The turny was cool, dont get me wrong. But this game would need more turnys instead of once every few months for it to reach esports level. It would also need a high daily view count.

I don’t think on screen effects matters that much if casters are able to provide overview information – like who seems to be coming out on top and so on.

Earthbound beating Fifa…my faith in humanity is restored.

Sirrah.1506:

It blows my mind that people are here saying these things just to be reactionary. Everyone knows the GW2 pvp scene is only just beginning to build up in terms of streams. Obviously it wont have the same numbers as other more established games.

You are trolls are you are wasting everyone`s time, including your own.

actually pvp streams are not building they are tanked, there were hundreds more pvp streamers during beta and first couple months of release, all those high profile players have left and are not returning. TP is really the only somewhat well known guild left, i think they are just sticking around since they are cornering what limited viewership market there is.

I was bored so started googling top GW1 players reviews of GW2 after playing it in alpha/early beta…
Most said the game seemed competitively bad and mainly just as a PvE cash in for Anet, with PvP as just a casual splashover for PvE players by making it have simplistic gameplay, to get even more money…
Oh, of course, besides Team Legacy… you could tell just how much they were trying to build PR in case all the others were wrong… they said GW2 was just the bestest…. LOL.

Rerroll.9083:

No one got the irony ):

#believe in esports

Everyone compares every single game to LoL in reference to esports. The only games that we should be comparing LoL with are MOBAs. I remember just a few years back when the LoL forums looked exactly like the negative posts in this thread.
“LoL will never be as competitive as HoN” -most moba players in 2009.

The pacing of casting is different in every game, not every single minute action has to be narrated, in GW2 it’s almost enough to just say things like “And there’s a 3v1 at mid now, bob evades the thief burst but he gets downed anyways” or “blue teams guardian is doing a great job staying up, red is rely trying to focus him down”. You can be much more general with it and still let people know what is going on.

Ultimately, reaching esports doesn’t depend on game design at all rely. Rather the studio’s and or outside organization’s ability to facilitate economical incentives towards playing the game on a competitive level. You think Riot got LoL to where it is today because of game design? lmao They didn’t even have a real spectator mode till like last year, still don’t have replays, and their game is essentially a re-skinned version of every other moba out there. LoL is where it is today because Riot (and later other companies like Intel) threw insane amounts of cash into sponsoring and hosting tournaments.

Cash incentives = dedicated players = #1 marketing tool, which results in more casual players, which = $$$$$, reinvest portion of the money made off of casual players back into cash incentives and you get LoL’s business model in a nutshell.

TLDR: Game design has little to do with LoL’s success, every moba was pretty much the same game re-skinned 4 years ago (dota, HoN, LoL), hell that’s all HoN and LoL were created for in the first place; to give warcraft players a real game server to play a dota mod re-skin on. To say that we need to replicate every one of Riot’s game design decisions for every game we hope to be esports is just stupid. What are we publishers?

Neglekt is right, but, and its a big but, there are numerous systems out there in the MOBA community that could work well within the sPvP format. I can’t be bothered going into them all but solo, duo and team que, seperated ladders, visible matchmaking rating, goodwill (Smite), tiers, better item acquisition (less NPC interaction) and being able to party and que from anywhere is just some of them.

Despite on the pro esport for gw2 side of the arguement….I’m starting to get frustrated with all the people that are making themselves look foolish by saying see omg 1600 for tournie we esports now see see….in 9 months time I have confidence gw2 will be a thriving pvp game and nearing esports capacity. But for now its taking major steps in the right direction but its not and won’t be for a while….an esport….just appreciate the progress and get off ya high horses.

Zodian.6597:

Everyone compares every single game to LoL in reference to esports. The only games that we should be comparing LoL with are MOBAs. I remember just a few years back when the LoL forums looked exactly like the negative posts in this thread.
“LoL will never be as competitive as HoN” -most moba players in 2009.

The pacing of casting is different in every game, not every single minute action has to be narrated, in GW2 it’s almost enough to just say things like “And there’s a 3v1 at mid now, bob evades the thief burst but he gets downed anyways” or “blue teams guardian is doing a great job staying up, red is rely trying to focus him down”. You can be much more general with it and still let people know what is going on.

Ultimately, reaching esports doesn’t depend on game design at all rely. Rather the studio’s and or outside organization’s ability to facilitate economical incentives towards playing the game on a competitive level. You think Riot got LoL to where it is today because of game design? lmao They didn’t even have a real spectator mode till like last year, still don’t have replays, and their game is essentially a re-skinned version of every other moba out there. LoL is where it is today because Riot (and later other companies like Intel) threw insane amounts of cash into sponsoring and hosting tournaments.

Cash incentives = dedicated players = #1 marketing tool, which results in more casual players, which = $$$$$, reinvest portion of the money made off of casual players back into cash incentives and you get LoL’s business model in a nutshell.

TLDR: Game design has little to do with LoL’s success, every moba was pretty much the same game re-skinned 4 years ago (dota, HoN, LoL), hell that’s all HoN and LoL were created for in the first place; to give warcraft players a real game server to play a dota mod re-skin on. To say that we need to replicate every one of Riot’s game design decisions for every game we hope to be esports is just stupid. What are we publishers?

Very nice post.

However the reason why most people compare other games to LoL is because eSports. GW2 has its own special case where there is no other MMO eSport atm, (not to say other game studios aren’t trying). It makes it very easy to compare SC2 and GW2 to LoL or Dota 2, because they are esports.

And most of the time, the viewership is compared. As in the how easily can this game be watched by an outsider, “compared to LoL…”. It’s not always bad to use the game that has the viewership, as a benchmark for your games success in esports.

And ppl argued if CA’S and spectator-mode would make a difference – GW2 PvP is really coming along nicely!

And here’s another reason why going e-sport is a terrible idea: people are more excited by the number of viewers than the actual match itself:p :p

This is probably the first tournament in gw2 history and there is absolutely no match analysis whatsoever

. Part of it has to do with the “esport” bees who like to buzz at the slightest opportunity but the game also is a visual mess.

I don’t mind repeating issues that have been spotted almost 2 years ago, so here you go:

Why don’t anet lower the pace of the fights and decrease the effects so that everyone can have a better understanding as to what’s happening in team fights? It will allow players to better coordinate and shout casters to better comment.

You know you’ll find the right balance when people can actually write exciting match reports:p

Actually I thought spectator and CA’s weren’t a priority but now I see the important they are for the community.

Last night we got as many views as arenanet streams xD

I give this game a year or two. There’s just sooooooo much left to do for A-Net. And with their pace and unnecessary patch-parts like qeue-dodging it will be definitely not this year.

Hugs.1856:

And here’s another reason why going e-sport is a terrible idea: people are more excited by the number of viewers than the actual match itself:p :p

This is probably the first tournament in gw2 history and there is absolutely no match analysis whatsoever

. Part of it has to do with the “esport” bees who like to buzz at the slightest opportunity but the game also is a visual mess.

I don’t mind repeating issues that have been spotted almost 2 years ago, so here you go:

Why don’t anet lower the pace of the fights and decrease the effects so that everyone can have a better understanding as to what’s happening in team fights? It will allow players to better coordinate and shout casters to better comment.

You know you’ll find the right balance when people can actually write exciting match reports:p

This is basically what i posted with a whole lot less sarcasm. Which got removed. Anyway as to your suggestion.. less players and less capture points would help.. which sounds a lot like a system used by previous mmo’s that actually had a shot at e-sports.
Man how i wish i could replace certain forum posters with the devs for a few months.

It just plain feels like they made a PvE game, did a few comb covers to fix some obvious balance iissues – spent time making isle of the mists I’ll give them that…

then made some arbitrary decision about what type oPvP to go with and slapped it together.

vp

I think we are on the right track, let’s keep this up and maybe one day…

Zodian.6597:

Everyone compares every single game to LoL in reference to esports. (…)
“LoL will never be as competitive as HoN” -most moba players in 2009.

LoL is where it is today because Riot (and later other companies like Intel) threw insane amounts of cash into sponsoring and hosting tournaments.

Cash incentives = dedicated players = #1 marketing tool, which results in more casual players, which = $$$$$, reinvest portion of the money made off of casual players back into cash incentives and you get LoL’s business model in a nutshell.

Completely agree.

The community should support the player initiatives those streamers undertake, but Guild Wars 2 Spvp’s chances at becoming an Esport are largely dependent on how Arenanet chooses to / is able to promote it.

To be honest, LoL and Starcraft II are unfair references. They are the peak of Esports currently and it is a healthy goal for Arenanet, but when it comes down to viewership on Twitch only other MMO Pvp (= WoW) should be considered competition to GW2.

WoW has Blizzcon and was able to corner the market by mass-promotion and the simple fact of being the first to achieve such a large playerbase. Backed by Blizzard’s entire infrastructure, it is easy to generate large numbers – hell people even watch Diablo III streamers… is that an Esport?

In short: there are no other MMOs that can be considered Esports. World of Warcraft is the only realistic comparison and it doesn’t even have a spectator mode or regular broadcasted tournaments.
Please, just appreciate the work other players put into those streams and have fun watching / playing the game.

Sprawl.3891:

Sirrah.1506:

It blows my mind that people are here saying these things just to be reactionary. Everyone knows the GW2 pvp scene is only just beginning to build up in terms of streams. Obviously it wont have the same numbers as other more established games.

You are trolls are you are wasting everyone`s time, including your own.

actually pvp streams are not building they are tanked, there were hundreds more pvp streamers during beta and first couple months of release, all those high profile players have left and are not returning. TP is really the only somewhat well known guild left, i think they are just sticking around since they are cornering what limited viewership market there is.

There might have been more streamers in beta but just a few months ago we didn’t have that many. Now more and more streamers are streaming again.

When there was no leaderboards we had fewer streams, now that we do have the boards, we have more streams. Throw in Custom Arenas and tournies and that’s even more streams and viewers.

Compared to the release of the game, it’s not great but compared to the months afterward, GW2 is doing a helluva lot better.

Recently, I heard that Team Legacy might come back to SPvP so, I think GW2 is on the right track if they can get people to even consider coming back.

we could compare it to gw1 if we had numbers.

Pretty sure gw1 had more viewership than gw2.

gw1 didn’t have a huge viewerbase with great pvp at launch either.

Those 9 months go by so fast..

I’m just surprised so many people are absolutely hooked on the idea of GW2 being an Esport…

A game doesn’t have to be an Esport to have tons of streams and enjoyable gameplay… it doesn’t have to be an Esport to have casual player run ‘tournaments’ and a good community… being an Esport won’t suddenly fix any of the games blaring issues…

What people have to start considering is that ‘GW2 is not an Esport game’.
It doesn’t play like an esport* and being an esport will not be a notable help to it.

.* without massive changes that should have happened in alpha

Bhawb.7408:

gw1 didn’t have a huge viewerbase with great pvp at launch either.

It had a wonderful gameplay setup though.
Any thoughtful enough person could see that.

If you have any belief that ability to play a game at all game parallels insight into gaming, you should know, top GW1 players pretty much all thought GW2’s PvP was bad, most notably, extremely shallow. Like it didn’t have what it takes to be an actual esport short of by getting extremely well thought out weapons (HAHAHA) or a flood of PvE players splashing over into PvP (since it was simplistic) so it could push into the realm of ‘Esports’ by a large enough population, to cover for the shallow gameplay.

GankSinatra.2653:

Hugs.1856:

And here’s another reason why going e-sport is a terrible idea: people are more excited by the number of viewers than the actual match itself:p :p

This is probably the first tournament in gw2 history and there is absolutely no match analysis whatsoever

. Part of it has to do with the “esport” bees who like to buzz at the slightest opportunity but the game also is a visual mess.

I don’t mind repeating issues that have been spotted almost 2 years ago, so here you go:

Why don’t anet lower the pace of the fights and decrease the effects so that everyone can have a better understanding as to what’s happening in team fights? It will allow players to better coordinate and shout casters to better comment.

You know you’ll find the right balance when people can actually write exciting match reports:p

This is basically what i posted with a whole lot less sarcasm. Which got removed. Anyway as to your suggestion.. less players and less capture points would help.. which sounds a lot like a system used by previous mmo’s that actually had a shot at e-sports.
Man how i wish i could replace certain forum posters with the devs for a few months.

Are you aware that WoW didnt make it in esports because it didnt have any other objective other than kill the other team? What this does is it gives no incentive to fight, there were literally 5-30 resets a game where they would disengage remana and heal up and go at it again. This is kitten poor esport design. With gw2 I think conquest is perfectly fine it forces fights by having that point mechanic … it forces action whether it be assaulting 1v1’s team fights interacting witht he secondary mechanics like treb npc’s etc.

re-mana? heal up?

ok. Are you aware that this game has no healers and mana? And that this game doesnt have multiple 10 second CC abilities that make resetting much easier?

Kill eachother isnt enough incentive to fight? Over ‘station a bunker there’?
You honestly think forcing everyone in a circle is the only thing that forces fights? It doesnt make sense. If anything conquest forces fights that are unfair or where the object is not to kill but to do exactly what you whined about: wasting time.

You think immediatly bashing WoW with hilarious hyperbole makes you right? Besides who says i wasnt talking about gw1? You even played that bro? And yeah, both games, including WoW, have done far better as e-sport so far. In part due to their odd focus on gametype due to ‘game just didnt feel right’.

GankSinatra.2653:

re-mana? heal up?

ok

Well fortunately I know that YOU know what I meant….

Nice discussion mate. Sorry you cant go back to your WoW Suckz argument.

If you want to see how TDM would work in this game, hop in one of those 3v3 servers. Fights are over in a minute, or two tops, due to no dedicated healer. It’s essentially over after the first stomp, and then you have to wait on the team to beat down the guy who spec’d defensive. Sometimes you get fun fights, but it typically always comes down to whose comp counters the other harder.

GankSinatra.2653:

Nice discussion mate. Sorry you cant go back to your WoW Suckz argument.

You seem quite aggressive to any civil discussion so ima just back the kitten out now…what i was trying to say was having constant ticking of points ensures that the game can’t reset no matter what…always something to achieve. And as nettle said a kill based win objective would heavily favour best comp another thing that I feel hinders esport progress in pvp. But to be fair I know gw2 suffers from that same composition favouring atm.

Tournament match from king of beta , top 16 which was not casted [BooN] Vs [VoTF]
if anyone is interested

The community can foster this, but the introduction of the custom servers in beta is the starting point for us to make this something viable. We need a community of people playing at a high level, people that can do analytical and exciting broadcasting, and fans to watch.

I thrive on just about anything competitive from MOBAs, to RTS, to typical pro sports. ANet has multiple focuses in their development and multiple teams to handle that. PvP is being updated aside from the PvE Living Story, but we are seeing some crossover in the skills and trait changes, which I think are for the better overall. Let’s keep a positive outlook and support something that we’re obviously passionate about.

Rysk.1862:

The community can foster this.

You are completely right and I agree with you, the GW2 community can push for an Esport and it would, for the near future, bump up the population.

BUT, people left GW2 because the gameplay wasn’t conductive of a good/competitive game.
Pushing for an esport won’t fix that, only band-aide up the problem till another game comes around and just scoops up the vast majority of the population (and/or people get bored of GW2, again, it only took 4~ months last time for the majority of the instanced PvP population to leave and there have been no major changes to gameplay since.)

It can…. but should it right now ?

If we don’t try to foster the right environment we can’t get the best players and thinkers (I’d put you in that latter category for sure…what a well made post you have there with some REALLY great points) to help drive ANet to make the right kinds of changes and bring us the best possible product that we can put out there.

We need:
Balance
Infrastructure (casters, spectator improvements, custom arenas readily available)
Fans
Players

I think that the meta game we’re seeing now with regards to bunker and spike is not completely non-viable for an eSport. Not everybody finds it exciting, but nor do all sports fans enjoy watching golf. It has a fan space, but it may not be as accessible to everybody. I have never seen a team game that requires this level of skill and activity with these types of objectives so I think it would be hard to steal this audience because it is so unique.

Rysk.1862:

We need:
Balance
Infrastructure (casters, spectator improvements, custom arenas readily available)
Fans
Players

I think that the meta game we’re seeing now with regards to bunker and spike is not completely non-viable for an eSport.

The bunker spike is usable, a downside more than not, but yeah still usable.
That is a pretty key part in gameplay though, a really staple and always will be of this sort of conquest… and its a downside more than not…
The map and base gameplay it focuses around is a place for a game to make up tons of ground, a stellar idea there will hold a population for ages (just take GW1 for example), so I think it’s a place worth the step backwards to review and change.

There should be an forum automatic error for using the word eSports in the PvP section for Guild Wars.

Which is why depending on the community and how we go about fostering this competitive community we can potentially influence ANet to make changes so that Conquest isn’t our competitive mode.

What about a mode similar to Jade Quarry? Or, god forbid, Fort Aspenwood? We can do more than conquest, and I feel like they tried to make an interesting mechanic for each of those maps, but some are more valuable than others.

Rysk.1862:

Which is why depending on the community and how we go about fostering this competitive community we can potentially influence ANet to make changes so that Conquest isn’t our competitive mode.

What about a mode similar to Jade Quarry? Or, god forbid, Fort Aspenwood? We can do more than conquest, and I feel like they tried to make an interesting mechanic for each of those maps, but some are more valuable than others.

I can’t see it coming gradually with time.
GW1 was only an example, I don’t care if this game is at all like it, in any aspect, besides when it comes to entertainment.

I threw out map tweaks in that massive blarb of a thread .
When it comes to conquest the backpoint was just a bad idea.
I have nothing against breaking off from a group fight for secondary objectives or stuff like that, just the bunker (bad) generally forced to hang around it (even worse) and then the 15~ seconds capping a base (boring) make it a terrible concept.

Realistically, Anet seems pretty hooked on their current gameplan (getting the community to stream out conquest, then seeing if that fixes things)
Short of, like, the vast majority of people saying “just stop Anet, your playing this out backwards”

And more surprisingly, Anet actually acting on it.

The game will keep going as is and I’ll be off getting better at swimming or something stupid…

Balance is complete crap, the game mode is meh, the population is pretty low, esports isn’t a possibility as long as Anet manages to do everything wrong, every time.