Guild Wars 2

Hello,

Let’s try to imagine how would the combat in PvP turn out if, instead of 2 dodges, your endurance bar could only hold 1 dodge maximum?

I feel like it can lead to a more interesting play-by-play combat, and make people actually think before using Dodge. One of the main problems is the nature of combat in PvP is very RNG-heavy, that’s because having 2 dodges, you can keep spamming 1 of them while you wait for your endurance bar to come back up and you won’t be punished.

What do you guys think? 1 dodge endurance bar, would it be good for the game? Would it turn the combat more skill-based? Would it make PvP more enjoyable?

Sounds like that should’ve happened long ago when Quickness got nerfed. Could just nerf Vigor by 50% or overall endurance gain by 50%.

Exactly! Even if you increase the endurance gain to compensate, this change should avoid the possibility of a double dodge, which means when an enemy dodge he is now vulnerable to attacks!

This creates a whole new level of counterplay in my opinion – baiting your opponent’s dodge to create an opportunity for you to combo him.

This would mean reworking ALL the stuff-happens-on-dodge traits. Especially grandmaster traits like Evasive Arcana.

I would like to think of this as a custom arena option so we could test how it feels. I know the Devs could try this on their test server, by increasing the cost of a dodge roll by 100%.
I think it might be a good change actually.

Also LelouchViBritannia, you say that this would mean reworking some things, but is it a good or a bad idea? Could it be worth the effort?

I honestly think it’s a bad idea, like every idea that takes away options from gameplay. The problem with dodge spam isn’t that you have 2 dodges, it’s perma-vigor + energy sigils.

I understand what you mean, and you do have a point. But I think what you’re suggesting is basically easier counterplay, which we want to avoid.
As you become more experienced in PvP it gets easier for you to tell when someone’s going to dodge. You need to pay attention to how many times your foe dodged in a period of time to know if he/she can dodge again, you need to disguise your intention and be cunning to not let your foe dodge your big attacks.
Good players won’t just spam their important skills, they’re try to make their foe waste its endurance and be vulnerable.

I think the problem is that certain specs can dodge too much considering they also have other defense mechanisms while having extremely high DPS.

If you cut down the dodge mechanism you ruin one of gw2’s most unique feature – dynamic combat.

You can trick people even without counting dodges.

If they are channeling a skill, for example, they are much less likely to dodge.

Maybe we should do like in other games: one bar of energy for attacks and dodges, much larger, and you can either deplete it by dodging or by attacking, then it refills again.

Reduce the invulnerability fram from dodge and add an aftercast to attacks in which you can’t dodge, and it might be viable.

DanSH, I consider myself experienced enough in PvP. My problem arises from the spam state that is GW2 PvP at the moment. There is way too much RNG going on, most fights are won based on how lucky the dodge spamming becomes.

When a player is 1v1 vs another one on a node, I come behind him stealthed, ready to backstab with basilisk and the guy dodges it because that’s what players are doing right now, they are spamming dodges. That guy got rewarded for spaming the dodge and avoid my burst, even though there was no way of knowing I was coming and he was just tanking the other guy’s autoattacks.

I’m all agaisn’t making this game any easier. What I want is to make it clearer.
Making the endurance bar hold 1 dodge, will not create easier counterplay.

What do we have right now is not counterplay. A guy dodges, that doesn’t mean he only has one dodge left, he can swap weapons and gain endurance out of the blue and you won’t notice because you don’t know if he has that energy sigil. He could also gain vigor and you will not be adjusting your timing to predict his endurance increased regeneration to account for vigor.

It should create a more streamlined combat, where if you see the player dodged, he is mostly vulnerable at that stage, unlike the current situation where you don’t truly know how much potential endurance he has, and have to stalk the UI from time to time to check for his Vigor uptime.

I agree dodge is what makes GW2 combat dynamic, but there’s too much of it at the moment. Making dodge less available means players will use it more consciously and therefore turn the game more skill-based without hurting the dynamic aspect of the combat.

We need to reduce damage if you plan on this. Also tankier classes or those which have abilities to disengage or weapon skills with evades have more advantage. I’m not normally out to defend necros but poor them.

It would be interesting. Instant endurance refills like energy sigils etc. would probably have to be reworked to keep the “you are always vulnerable after you dodge” theme going. Also, weapon skill evades would probably need to be harshly nerfed or removed.

In general, it would benefit bruiser-type builds and would make gameplay more traditional MMO slugfest (i.e. you use your skills and they land, your opponent uses his skills and they land). I’m not sure we want to traditionalize GW2 that much, but it’s definitely an interesting idea.

Edit: it would also be a pretty harsh nerf to skillshots that don’t always land; since you could nearly guarantee that any targeted skill used after a dodge would land, skillshots would be a liability.

I have to disagree with this suggestion, because it would be devastating for professions without access to block/ evade skills on weapons aka Necro. On the other hand this would bring professions like thief/messmer absolutly out of control!

Quickfoot, your suggestion is a good one, but it falls on deaf ears. Sane people left this pvp long time ago. Energy Sigil, Vigor, etc shouldn’t even exist. 1 dodge is probably a reasonable compromise and would make the game have healthier pvp counterplay. Even 2 dodges would be ok but endurance should never be modified by anything. Any boost to the endurance should come at drastic cost to damage/movement/something.

Edit: To expand on this, dodge is inherently a bad mechanic because it comes without warning and provides invulnerability. Something so fundamental to the game should at least be identical for everyone.

Could be fun but I see one big downside. If you know the other person only has one dodge, then you also know that after he burns the one dodge just trying to move out from pressure, then you could switch to that 100% crit sigiled weapon and hit the player with the hardest skill you have with little worry of missing it due to that players movement. You could get blinded, but that would be a discussion for a different day.

I could hear a trolly TS of five warriors now: “Ok guys, wait for it… Wait for it.. see the dodge OK NOW!!! mass crit eviscerates”

I would feel nerfing vigor would be a better compromise than completely removing an entire dodge possibility. Still offers two dodges but inherently it becomes less spammy to classes and skills that offer the spam to begin with.

Sudden.8729:

Could be fun but I see one big downside. If you know the other person only has one dodge, then you also know that after he burns the one dodge just trying to move out from pressure, then you could switch to that 100% crit sigiled weapon and hit the player with the hardest skill you have with little worry of missing it due to that players movement. You could get blinded, but that would be a discussion for a different day.

I could hear a trolly TS of five warriors now: “Ok guys, wait for it… Wait for it.. see the dodge OK NOW!!! mass crit eviscerates”

That is how pvp is supposed to be. You wait for an opportunity, but maybe you are the one that is getting played and he doesn’t dodge because you’re not using powerful attacks. Cripple, chill, confusion, all conditions that should mean the difference between getting your face smashed in and buying enough time for your heal to recharge. Or do you think pvp means roll face on keyboard? Use your dodge on purpose to bait the warrior into using eviscerate but you knew it was coming and pop an aegis/blind just before it hits then begin the counterattack.

It goes without saying that this change would mean damage decreases across the board.

Nacht Fuchs.3762:

I have to disagree with this suggestion, because it would be devastating for professions without access to block/ evade skills on weapons aka Necro. On the other hand this would bring professions like thief/messmer absolutly out of control!

This!
It would just insanly increase the effectiveness of burst builds.

Just take some time, record one of your matches and watch it then. Look exactly what you have doged and then imagine you would have been unable to doge in 50% of the cases. Which skill of a hamBow war you want to doge? Better think twice… and then doge twice!

It’s less skill and more lottery. (And don’t start telling me its less, because you need to time your doge more carefull…)

I think the OP runs thief

@milo : I thinking you are missing the point of my post that Tranassa got perfectly.

Of course part of PVP is timing attacks, though watching someone play a match by rolling their face on a keyboard would atleast get a laugh. The point I was making was reducing the dodge roll count to one would make PVP even less “skillful”, for lack of a better word. Having a lowered skill ceiling via AI based builds is already a huge gripe. Do we really want to lower the skill ceiling even more by only having to watch for a single dodge…

would make evade and hard CCs builds really OP

milo.6942:

Sudden.8729:

Could be fun but I see one big downside. If you know the other person only has one dodge, then you also know that after he burns the one dodge just trying to move out from pressure, then you could switch to that 100% crit sigiled weapon and hit the player with the hardest skill you have with little worry of missing it due to that players movement. You could get blinded, but that would be a discussion for a different day.

I could hear a trolly TS of five warriors now: “Ok guys, wait for it… Wait for it.. see the dodge OK NOW!!! mass crit eviscerates”

That is how pvp is supposed to be. You wait for an opportunity, but maybe you are the one that is getting played and he doesn’t dodge because you’re not using powerful attacks. Cripple, chill, confusion, all conditions that should mean the difference between getting your face smashed in and buying enough time for your heal to recharge. Or do you think pvp means roll face on keyboard? Use your dodge on purpose to bait the warrior into using eviscerate but you knew it was coming and pop an aegis/blind just before it hits then begin the counterattack.

It goes without saying that this change would mean damage decreases across the board.

It was a valid point. Pushing the success rate of attacks up could be very detrimental.

For example, you could use your dodge to bait eviscerate, then pop aegis, block eviscerate, and immediately eat shield bash/hammer chain/bolas/etc. You could stun break, but you wouldn’t be able to dodge afterward, so it wouldn’t do you much good.

Basically, all professions have access to multiple devastating skills at the same time. The best strategy would likely be to use them all consecutively, knowing that only one or maybe two would miss.

@OP: This is a horrible idea. This kills a lot of classes. In fact, it lowers the skill threshold of this game even further.