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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

Please indicate your main/preferred class for sPvP before posting any suggestions.

The purpose of this thread is to try and gather some ideas from the community on how Mesmers could be changed. All feedback will be welcomed, but I would prefer commentary from people who do not play Mesmers as their main character.

I am well aware of the challenges Mesmers have… nevertheless, I am looking at the current state of the class with “Mesmer Goggles” on my eyes.

Bottom line is that I may exhibit one-sidedness while attempting to scrutinize the root cause behind some of the issues I’m experiencing with my class.

Some of my personal observations are outlined below:

Lack of diversity in builds:

Currently, Shatter Mesmers are the only recognized build in top tier competition. (Go glass or go home)

Condi builds are lacklustre in all their forms including but not limited to the triple signet clone death build (which is a build I love the concept of).

Mesmers have no viable bunker option.

Very few strong options for utility slots. Portal and Blink are almost mandatory in organized play.

Low Mobility

Very difficult for shatters to hit a good player without circuitous set up and synergy with team mates

Hard countered by Thieves

Very susceptible to condi pressure
-
Those are just a few. I’m looking forward to all your feedback.

- Jasher, the boogie down dancer

(edited by Jasher.6580)

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Posted by: BlackTruth.6813

BlackTruth.6813

Give them a soldiers amulet build but make sure it isn’t braindead op like Hambow was.

I don’t know, maybe buff mantras or something without making it broken?

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Posted by: Cero.5132

Cero.5132

I main engineer and play thief as alt.
I think mesmers are in dire need of more access to swiftness or at least a 25% movement speed trait.
Also I´d propose to switch the trait with clones on dodge to adept tier to open for a little more build diversity.

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Posted by: Axyl.9408

Axyl.9408

I main a thief.
What’s wrong with Phantasm builds? I play phantasms on my Mesmer with iDefender, blink, A mantra (pain or cleanse, depending on team setup). I love the rotation I use after baiting out some dodges with GS auto. GS4→5→3→sword/pistol→4→5→3→ 3→2 is great CC/damage pressure; then I usually pop iDefender to get some damage reduction for their counter attack.

I’m just curious as to why no one ever plays a phantasm build? I never see other Mesmers using them.

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Posted by: hackks.3687

hackks.3687

Clone production needs a nerf. Then there will be room for more build diversity. With clone production as it is Shatter will always be the strongest option and there won’t be room for anything else.

Hackkz/Riggamaroll
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

-snip-

Phantasm builds lack burst. Though it has better sustain, it cannot down players fast enough for it to be viable in competitive play.

The phantasm abilities are on a long cooldown and predictable.

You are faced with more hard counters as Phantasm: Medi Guard, Rangers, Thieves

It has low survivability against both burst and condition damage.

You can’t contribute well in team fights.

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Posted by: Laraley.7695

Laraley.7695

I mostly play fresh air.

But honestly all these things you’re saying apply to so many classes. It’s not a mesmer issue, it’s a game issue. There is little diversity for each class, for example ele: you pretty much need to play dd in the top tier, even though staff is sort of viable, dd is still better. Same goes for fresh air, those are not really the builds you see in top tier.

I think the condi build issue with mesmer is that it’s just simply horrible in conquest. I’m not really sure if I want to see pu condi mesmers viable, though. It’s very close to being as braindead as turret engi and I don’t think that’s something many people want. The whole condi mesmer concept would have to be reworked, but I don’t really know how to make it viable and at least partially difficult to play as for example condi necro.

Again, having no bunker build option is not only mesmer issue, look at thief for example. Same with utility slots, almost all specs have very little choice in what utility they should take. Thief is a good example of that.

Well low mobility is not completely true. With staff mesmer can be pretty fast, but I don’t think I would be against mesmers getting some minor speed buff.

I think if you’re a good player, I think you manage to land your shatters. I agree that sometimes the AI is really stupid and it should be looked into. For example not being to hit diversion even though the clones are in the range of a target, just not reacting to it.

Again, most zerker specs besides med guard are countered by thieves. I do not believe thieves need a nerf, though. It’s just how the game it is at the moment, same as when engis were hard countered by necros.

And for the condi cleanse, don’t forget that mesmer does have condi cleanse but hey chooses not to use it just because other utilities are better. That could be solved by SLIGHTLY buffing other skills to make them worth taking. Another option would be to add a condi cleanse to some wepon skills, but I really don’t think it’s a problem for a mesmer as it can take down a condi necro pretty easily. The idea is mesmer will stay in range, so he’s not going to get hit by any skills applying conditions unlike thief who has to be in melee and has a decent condi removal.

In summay, I think many of the problems you adressed apply to many classes and not just mesmer. I don’t think mesmer is in a bad postion, just pushed out of meta by thieves. That is not because the class is weak but because other class is dominating. I believe they should fix mesmer bugs first and possibly add some minor buffs but not to make it over the top. Honestly, HoT is coming and I think we should wait how things are after that because it might change lots things and shift the meta completely.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

But honestly all these things you’re saying apply to so many classes. It’s not a mesmer issue, it’s a game issue.

I agree but not completely. All classes need more options… but Mesmers feel like they only have one.

I listed some specs with different playstyles you may see in top tier teams:

Elementalist: Dagger/Dagger and Celestial Staff
Engineer: Celestial Rifle and Double Kit Condi
Guardian: Meditation DPS, Virtue Bunker and Altruistic Healing Bunker
Thief: Dagger/Pistol and Sword/Dagger
Warrior: Shoutbow, Axe/Wh Longbow, Axebow and Hambow
Ranger: Condi, Power, Spirit
Mesmer: Shatter… just shatter
-
Each of these specs have variants I didn’t mention since the playstyles are almost identical like Panic Strike vs Crit Strike for D/P Thief or the traditional GS variant for Guardian medi DPS vs Hammer.
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For Mesmers, if you are not playing shatter you’re probably doing it wrong if you want to compete.
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Also, you said a good player will land his shatters. I agree. A good player will land his shatters. Nevertheless, it’s not easy to land shatters against good players. I’ll tell you this, it’s not easy for a shatter Mesmer to land shatters against me either and I don’t think I’m that great.

(edited by Jasher.6580)

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

All feedback will be welcomed, but I would prefer commentary from people who do not play Mesmers as their main character.

Dead thread then.

Actual Mesmer mains have already covered these topics extensively (primarily in the Mesmer forum, but also here in PvP) in a highly constructive manner. They’re most intimate with the problems and great at suggesting changes for class improvement.

You’re essentially calling a council on a specialist topic and excluding all the specialists. I’m not sure what you expect to get out of such a setup. A new trait called Compounding Ignorance? What’s your justification for this?

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

I mostly play fresh air.

But honestly all these things you’re saying apply to so many classes. It’s not a mesmer issue, it’s a game issue.

Okay I would like to clarify something here. First of all yes all classes have very limited builds. That being said, take this into consideration.

Mesmer is the ONLY that’s right the ONLY class in this game that has had one build to be used competitively since launch. While every class may only have one or two viable builds in each meta. They are always changing in one way or another. I think warrior is possible the best example of this.
They have really only had one meta build at a time but it went from one to another. Hambow>Evisc/sidepoint build>Banner Bunker (kinda)>Shoutbow.

Necros are kind of the same. Guardians have had several bunker variants since launch and now are medi guards. Engineers possibly have had the greatest build diversity in the game. The fact remains tho

Mesmers, since launch, have had one good competitive build; any player in this game, should not be okay with that.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

-snip-

No need to be rude. People who do not play Mesmers still play the game and they still play against Mesmers.

They have a different perspective.

Sometimes looking at something from a different angle can be advantageous. When collecting feedback from Mesmers and Mesmers only, you are collecting data from people with a vested interest in the class.

Sometimes that data may be exaggerated or distorted… because, let’s face it. We have an agenda. We want our class to be strong.

We may not think that our weakness’ are warranted when it may be intentional for the sake of balance.

There are many reasons why I would find a non Mesmers perspective valuable. And even if the feedback wasn’t of any worth you really didn’t have to be a kitten about it.

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Posted by: Alexander.9810

Alexander.9810

Mesmer does seem to need some help. It appears they exist to be a Thief’s delicious food and can’t win any 1v1s without goofiness like Moa or stealth.

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

Background: I currently main Shoutbow for Genesis, previously DD Elementalist. I also play Double Ranged Shatter Mesmer, Panic Strike DP Thief, and Hammer Sc/F Medi Guardian.

First comment: There aren’t really any other Mesmer builds that I would like to be in the meta. Clone death promotes passive gameplay. Phantasms are fire and forget. Mantras are instant cast, low counterplay, bullkitten. Part of the issue with Mesmer is that if anything other than shatter was viable, it wouldn’t promote competitive play. Sure, you can run those builds if you find them fun. If you play well, you can make them work. I just don’t want any of those builds to be optimal with the way they’re designed.

Second comment: Your observations about Mesmer are true of all professions. Warrior can only play Shoutbow, as the role a Hambow would fill is better filled with a Cele Rifle Engineer, a Thief is better than a Killshot Warrior, and a GS/LB warrior doesn’t really fit into a role against most current meta comps. Guardians are locked into the Hammer Medi Guard build, since the only reason to bring a Guardian over another class is the way Ring of Warding sets up burst in team fights and Bunker Guardian was pushed out of the meta in favor of double cele. The way stealth works, there’s not much creativity involved in Thief builds in conquest; you’re locked into DP or SD.

Third comment: Mesmers aren’t locked in to using Portal because other utilities are weak. They used it because Portal is so god kitten strong. Mirror Images and the condi clear mantra are both decent replacements for it if you don’t want to run portal, and more are options if you don’t run Shatter Mesmer.

@Jasher: Define top-tier teams. Most of those specs are ones that are old meta and aren’t run anymore. Hambow, A/Sw LB, etc. On the topic of landing shatters, the higher you go in skill level, the more you need to do to set up your shatters. Obvious shatters won’t land, but I think that’s okay.

@Alexander: Mesmer wins 1v1 versus Power Necros, Engineers, Warriors, and goes even versus DD Elementalists. Thieves and Medi Guards are beatable in 1v1s, but counter Mesmers hard in team fights. In team fights, they require team support to perform well, but I think that’s good. Apex runs Nnight, Genesis runs Zeromis, and Cunning Stunts was planning on running Braiin on Mesmer. Max and Blaze are both starting to form teams with Mesmers. Mesmers are fairly strong right now. If Medi Guards were touched some, they would be incredibly strong.

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
Competitive Warrior, Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Thief

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Posted by: Alexander.9810

Alexander.9810

Maybe it’s different at competitive level, but I haven’t fought a Mesmer who didn’t need Moa or Prismating Understanding to survive against me in a 1v1 with Cele Axe Sword/Longbow. I haven’t really been threatened by Mesmers.

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Former Sith Warrior in SWTOR

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Posted by: OlrunTheBlade.1486

OlrunTheBlade.1486

That’s going to be because most Mesmers wont dodge the Impale and play close enough for you to land Eviscerate. Play against a top tier Mesmer, and they’ll destroy you. I don’t even main Mesmer and I could probably do it.

Captain of Never Lucky [NL]
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Posted by: The Primary.6371

The Primary.6371

Clone production needs a nerf. Then there will be room for more build diversity. With clone production as it is Shatter will always be the strongest option and there won’t be room for anything else.

That would actually limit build diversity and screw up the mesmer class mechanic at the same time.

In other words, taking something away does not promote build diversity. Plus you will always trust anet to inevitable over nerf a particular trait or ability into oblivion.

(edited by The Primary.6371)

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Posted by: Lumines.3916

Lumines.3916

A change that I don’t see ANET doing but I think can possibly work is to simply make Illusionary Persona baseline. IP rounds off the profession mechanic nicely making it less clunky vs untraited. If IP’s effect were fundamental to the shatter mechanic, this would increase defenses for all mesmer builds, free up trait points for shatter specs without having to touch the numbers on weapon skills/utilities.

But who knows, this could very well be an overbuff too, I’m no game designer, just zerker Mes is my fav zerker spec!

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Posted by: Sorel.4870

Sorel.4870

Engineer and thief main here, working on my Champion Illusionist title since recently. I think the mesmer needs some of the following tweaks, considering its main issues are mobility, fragility against thieves and low synergy between traits.

1) Nerf Plasma. This thing is insane.
2) Make Diversion AoE non-traited. It looks AoE, it feels AoE, but it’s not. It could really help against thieves and mesmers would then become a major asset in team fights.
3) Deceptive Evasion should be a class mechanic, or at the very least an Adept trait. That trait alone is responsible for the lack of diversity for mesmer builds.
4) Add a reliable way of getting swiftness or 25% movement speed, as a trait. Traveler Runes are absolutely suboptimal.
5) Compact the damage ticks in Spatial Surge, reduce their number, and reduce the cast time. As it is, this skill is one of the weakest ranged AA, even at max range, and relies too much on air/fire procs.

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

The problem with mesmers is the same problem rangers and necros have. They have to work way to hard to use their profession mechanic to its full extent and its effectiveness isn’t higher than the 5 classes that don’t have to work hard. They should add in more traits that create clones. Clone on shatter usage and clone on mantra usage (with an icd) are just a few options.

Just to expand on my original thought.
Eles: changing attunements requires no work
Guardians: Virtues don’t require work just one more instant active skill
Engineers: Kits and toolbelt skills are just more skills they get for free
Warriors: Bunch of different ways to generate adrenaline, not just hitting foes
Thieves: steal is an extra instant cast skill, initiative is a different mechanic, no work required

Contrast this to the following
Rangers: have to worry about the pet dieing, have to make sure it’s attacking to deal 100% damage
Mesmers: shatters require clones so you better make sure your clones aren’t dead, and that they are positioned correctly.
Necros: You have to actually generate life force by landing specific skills, no passive regen or skills that give instant LF like warrior.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

A HUGE problem for build variety lies in deceptive evasion…it just kills you when trying to put anything together because it is necessary with the class mechanic. Also, thief-hard counters. My solutions:

1. Deceptive Evasion – All mesmers now have “create 1 clone on-dodge” baseline with a FIVE s cooldown. The trait “Deceptive evasion” removes this cooldown. Shatter mesmers will still want to take it, but you no longer MUST pay the tax for this trait.
2. Null field – This skill now applies 3s of revealed when used (or put this on one of the matras, or give a trait that allows a torch skill to give revealed). This gives mesmer a way to better protect himself and can actually make thieves hunted at times.

edit – fixed wording to avoid incorrect filtering of 5s.

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Posted by: Laraley.7695

Laraley.7695

I mostly play fresh air.

But honestly all these things you’re saying apply to so many classes. It’s not a mesmer issue, it’s a game issue.

Okay I would like to clarify something here. First of all yes all classes have very limited builds. That being said, take this into consideration.

Mesmer is the ONLY that’s right the ONLY class in this game that has had one build to be used competitively since launch. While every class may only have one or two viable builds in each meta. They are always changing in one way or another. I think warrior is possible the best example of this.
They have really only had one meta build at a time but it went from one to another. Hambow>Evisc/sidepoint build>Banner Bunker (kinda)>Shoutbow.

Necros are kind of the same. Guardians have had several bunker variants since launch and now are medi guards. Engineers possibly have had the greatest build diversity in the game. The fact remains tho

Mesmers, since launch, have had one good competitive build; any player in this game, should not be okay with that.

I understand your point, all I was trying to point out that this issue should be dealt with globally and not just for one class. Even though mesmer has it the worst since lauch, it doesn’t mean other classes should be ignored when it comes to this. I think we should really consider the xpack and then see if things are not any better.

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

Warrior main, Necromancer second, Ele third…

What I find saddening about the Mesmers within PvP is that they are burst and forget… While the playstyle is extremely interesting, and you survive in ways that no game could’ve ever dreamt of, I cannot feel that Mesmers are completely faceless and out of character…

I do not have that much experience on it, but let’s go back to how Mesmers were in GW1… Sure they used “Illusions and Phantasms” but I do not think that any sane person would say that these horrifying AI counterparts even lift a finger compared to the hexes that they were 250 years ago…
Aside from that though, they were much and much more… They were debuffers, and frankly, the worst kind… They could get rid of your energy, making it extremely hard to handle in Mesmer rich enviroments – could interrupt your whole party when only one member got interrupted and made you want to ragequit the game by exploiting your flaws

I find that the Mesmer now, aside from CI Interrupt Mesmer, does not even come close on the playstyle of capitalizing of mistakes from an enemy…
Interrupts are potentially so dang cool, but aside from 1v1’s, their potential just falls apart…

What I would like to see happen with Mesmers is getting the Domination Magic back in their hands, and reward them with an active interrupt style of play – capable but not restricted to 1v1’s

Imagine a trait like this;
Daze all enemies for 0.5s in an area upon interrupting a skill (range 900-1200)
This would punish a whole team when playing against an Interrupt Mesmer, fearing spamming certain combos or chains because said Mesmer could literally make you incapable of fighting for a few seconds…

But let’s not end it there… Energy is not prevalent within this game as it’s previous itteration – but why should a Mesmer not be capable of toying with the current Energy of the enemy players? Dodging is extremely powerful, so taking care of such a powerful mechanic could potentially, if implemented well, lead to interesting play…
Weakness is already extremely powerful, as it makes people who spam random dodges feel miserable – so getting bits of energy away by clever and intelligent play could really be something worth praising…

And seriously… Rework Timewarp – it is in a pitiful state now

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Posted by: Laraley.7695

Laraley.7695

Warrior main, Necromancer second, Ele third…

I find that the Mesmer now, aside from CI Interrupt Mesmer, does not even come close on the playstyle of capitalizing of mistakes from an enemy…
Interrupts are potentially so dang cool, but aside from 1v1’s, their potential just falls apart…

What I would like to see happen with Mesmers is getting the Domination Magic back in their hands, and reward them with an active interrupt style of play – capable but not restricted to 1v1’s

Imagine a trait like this;
Daze all enemies for 0.5s in an area upon interrupting a skill (range 900-1200)
This would punish a whole team when playing against an Interrupt Mesmer, fearing spamming certain combos or chains because said Mesmer could literally make you incapable of fighting for a few seconds…

I’m afraid that this would make Halting Strike too strong. The problem with interrupt mesmer is that many people who play it just spam daze mantra and and hope for a random interrupt. This trait would actually support bad gamplay just because there’s almost always something to interrupt. It wouldn’t be a trait that would require some thinking, just luck to interrupt and get Halting Strike to proc. And at the same time it wouldn’t improve the gameplay of players who think about their gameplay because the intterupt would be just another aoe cc and mesmers have those already. It wouldn’t punish anyone, because there’s literally nothing you can go about a cc with no cast time, it would just be annoying.

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

I’m afraid that this would make Halting Strike too strong. The problem with interrupt mesmer is that many people who play it just spam daze mantra and and hope for a random interrupt. This trait would actually support bad gamplay just because there’s almost always something to interrupt. It wouldn’t be a trait that would require some thinking, just luck to interrupt and get Halting Strike to proc. And at the same time it wouldn’t improve the gameplay of players who think about their gameplay because the intterupt would be just another aoe cc and mesmers have those already. It wouldn’t punish anyone, because there’s literally nothing you can go about a cc with no cast time, it would just be annoying.

Hmm, yea I can see your concern…

Though I gotta disagree with the “spamming” though… The skills and utilities that interrupt are not that numerous, and often require different weaponsets or losing a valuable utility…

However, since we are on this discussion anyway and since you had a counter arguement to mine with a valid concern – what would you do to help this issue? Not just for you now by the way, this is just brainstorming out loud

I have given my reason as to why I feel that Mesmers are completely out of line with it’s previous themes, yet it saddens me to see that nearly no one promotes giving Mesmers a true identity

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Posted by: MailMail.6534

MailMail.6534

The purpose of this thread is to try and gather some ideas from the community on how Mesmers could be changed. All feedback will be welcomed, but I would prefer commentary from people who do not play Mesmers as their main character.

Hopefully Anet listens to some good ideas from the non-Mesmer community, because they aren’t receptive to nearly anything we post in our forums. Thanks for the good will and effort of bringing balance to all classes and not just your own.

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“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”

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Posted by: silentnight warrior.2714

silentnight warrior.2714

First of all i think that is a good idea to not main a profession when you give options to balance it. Its very important to see what other professions strugle against that specific profession.

Right now i dont have a main profession, because i usualy play all of them, but my favourite professions to play are warrior, mesmer and necro.

What mesmer needs in my opinion:

- Trait with 25% speed increase in the first trait line. (trading speed for 20% less shatter damage or no halting strike or no boon removal).
- Deceptive evasion could be baseline with 10 sec cd (The trait could remove the CD).
- Trait in the last trait line that could cause one shatter to give 4sec reveal (diversion).
This would help in the mesmer – thief fights (diversion then shatter).

What mesmer dont need:

- More Conditions Removal options (The class already have many traits/skills to deal with conditions in defensive trait lines).
- More boon rip / transfer (The class is already very good in this regard)
- More ports

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Posted by: MailMail.6534

MailMail.6534

Wait… I was going to say something nice in this thread then never post in it again, but then I saw this monstrosity of a comment:

Clone production needs a nerf. Then there will be room for more build diversity. With clone production as it is Shatter will always be the strongest option and there won’t be room for anything else.

Ok, so you do realize that the Mesmer mechanic is based on clone production, right? Every build we can possibly create revolves around… producing clones to either shatter or serve as AI companions. Buffing the latter promotes somewhat lazy gameplay which is literally the only thing I can sanely assume you were getting at in your post. There are some great options for phantasm shatter hyrbids, but I wouldn’t want to see phantasms buffed into higher tier play. See Turret Engi.

There are definitely some creative and constructive ways to improve the Mesmer class, and our forum does an excellent job at detailing these. The root of our issues lie within where our traits are placed and the actual effectiveness of said traits. I’ll leave you peeps to discuss the rest.

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“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

-snip-

You bring up some very good points and contrasts. The issue is compounded by the fact that clones die so easily, so the set up has to be even more surgical to pull off properly. What I see is a lot of Mesmers depending on is their synergy with Thieves and stealth which creates a symbiotic but potent relationship between the two.

I don’t think an execution should be so labyrinthine that you need an above average skill cap to pull off your main damaging move when fighting a good player.

In 1 v 1’s against a good player, it’s stupidly complex to pull off.

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Posted by: Madisonlee.9641

Madisonlee.9641

So aside from being thief food (though torch users have a fighting chance) and being replaced by medi guards (thief counters), mesmer is really powerful and is only just slightly being pushed out of meta.

So this being said you have to be really careful what you do to promote build diversity, as it might push shatter too high.

Mes has 4 options that I know of: Shatter, Phantasm, Condition (either shatter or non shatter kind) and interrupt.

2 of those are already considered a plague unto man kind by the community (condi and
phantasm, and I understand why, but rather than making anet crap on them like they did phantasms and soon engi turrets, they should just think of innovative ways to make them less summon and forget; because some people just like to play AI and pet classes) so interrupt as the only other thing worth buffing I guess?

If you make clone on dodge baseline to promote diversity, this would only buff shatter passed the other choices and still keep it as the top as it can have more options such as condi removal it might gain access to; so that would defeat the purpose of the thread I think. I like having it baseline with an ICD though and needing the trait to clear the ICD, that might be a good idea.

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Posted by: Madisonlee.9641

Madisonlee.9641

Oh and for the love of god they should do something about the utilities. Every serious mes needs to run the trinity pretty much. (portal blink and decoy) This is one reason why interrupt build might be less effective in high tier because they have to choose one of the three in the trinity to give up for mantra of distraction.

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

-snip-

You bring up some very good points and contrasts. The issue is compounded by the fact that clones die so easily, so the set up has to be even more surgical to pull off properly. What I see is a lot of Mesmers depending on is their synergy with Thieves and stealth which creates a symbiotic but potent relationship between the two.

I don’t think an execution should be so labyrinthine that you need an above average skill cap to pull off your main damaging move when fighting a good player.

In 1 v 1’s against a good player, it’s stupidly complex to pull off.

http://tinyurl.com/2fcpre6

I actually enjoy that it is kind of hard to land shatters. Makes it higher risk and reward. Another thing I noticed that’s a problem is how necro mesmer and ranger profession mechanics don’t scale with the number of enemies. More enemies=more AOE, that means clones will die way faster, DS will go down way quicker, and the pet will die more quickly. other profession mechanics remain equally effective regardless of number of enemies.

Overall, mesmer build diversity is bad for several reasons:
1) Low clone generation without DE, and how easily clones die. This can be addressed by putting more clone generating traits in underutilized traitlines and/or making clones less susceptible to aoe.
2) Dependence on blink, portal, and decoy. This can be fixed by giving buffs to inspiration and chaos, and allowing mesmers to be tankier with group support because then they won’t be dependent on those utilities for survivability and in the case of portal group utility.
3) Other builds being to easy, clone death and phantasms specifically are relatively easy. If they were stronger people would complain about it being braindead and rage. The solution here is to increase the skill cap and effectiveness on these builds.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: Jelle.2807

Jelle.2807

I play shatter condi mesmer primarily. I’m also not bad with my condi war.

As someone who has played my mesmer as almost nothing but condi, I find condi mesmer is at the best spot it has been since launch. I do not play competitively so I can’t say wether it’s viable or not, but lately I’ve never felt like my condi mesmer build is weak at all. I’ve been complimented often infact and even manage to 1v1 turret engineers at times. The buffs to sceptre and the addition of torment to the mesmer’s kitten nal really helped a lot.

I used to have a bunker build as well but it’s been a very long time since I’ve run it and I’ve no idea if it still works, but at the time it was ok. Probably not viable.

I will echo that mesmer is overly reliant on deceptive evasion as a trait and it makes for poor build variety. I wouldn’t say glass cannon is the only option, in fact I’ve never bothered to play it.

Seriously arcenal gets censored?

Edit: I forgot to mention, I eat up and spit out thieves like it’s not even funny. I don’t know what you other mesmers find so hard about it. xD

(edited by Jelle.2807)

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Posted by: PowerBottom.5796

PowerBottom.5796

I main Ele

The biggest weakness of Mesmers that is essentially the reason only shatter-builds are played is the utter lack of condition-removal.

You basically can only play bursty glasscannons with such low condition-removal, because it gives you a chance to burst the other Player down before the conditions down you.

I actually toyed around with a few sustain-builds on the mesmer or even builds that don’t run zerker (still not nearly as sustain-heavy as builds like DD-Ele or other celestial-builds), but the lack of condition-removal is just too much.

Also, the traits that help you against conditions are too high up the skill-tree (shattered conditions) or simply lackluster (cleansing conflagration, menders purity). Also, they are on tree’s you don’t really wanna spend points on in the most common builds or where the traits are pretty much set in stone. They need to be buffed and/or moved down to a minor or at least lower trait on the tree. Another possibility is to combine them with other traits (which would of course count as a buff).

In terms of non-condition-related issues: One of the biggest is Illusionary Persona – It’s just so good and necessary, you’ll never run any shatter-build without it. And it’s so far up the tree, it kills any diversity in shatter-related builds. Wanna maybe do a shatter-build with conditions? Too bad, can’t have the torment on shatter, cuz you need Illusionary Persona. Wanna do sth. with condition-removal on shatter: no boonremoval on shatter and no clone on dodge OR no Illusionary persona…. -.-°

Just put IP lower on the skill-tree and/or make it a minor trait.

I feel the Shatter-Mesmer as it is now is fine, but it’s completely true that there is probably the least amount of viable builds on the mesmer of any class in high-level competetive play.

(edited by PowerBottom.5796)

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Posted by: Jelle.2807

Jelle.2807

The biggest weakness of Mesmers that is essentially the reason only shatter-builds are played is the utter lack of condition-removal.

I disgree, phantasmal disenchanter is excelent condition removal especially if you’re using illusionary elasticity in the illusion tree. 4 bounces base 5 buffed each ideally curing two conditions or stripping two boons, I would not call that an utter lack of condition removal. Slightly delayed perhaps, but very good for teammates also. Traited it has what…a mere 16 second cooldown? Useful shatter fodder too.
There’s also arcane thievery and null field but those are longer cooldown of course.

In terms of non-condition-related issues: One of the biggest is Illusionary Persona – It’s just so good and necessary, you’ll never run any shatter-build without it. And it’s so far up the tree, it kills any diversity in shatter-related builds. Wanna maybe do a shatter-build with conditions? Too bad, can’t have the torment on shatter, cuz you need Illusionary Persona. Wanna do sth. with condition-removal on shatter: no boonremoval on shatter and no clone on dodge OR no Illusionary persona…. -.-°

Why is illusionary persona absolutely necesary? I run maim the disillusioned with my condi shatter build and I find it absolutely amazing. I can imagine illusionary persona is useful in a burst build to get the most upfront damage out of shatters, but in a condi setup especially with ranged weapons maim is just so good I dare call it overpowered.

Edit: Forgot about mantra of resolve.

(edited by Jelle.2807)

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Warrior main, Necromancer second, Ele third…

I find that the Mesmer now, aside from CI Interrupt Mesmer, does not even come close on the playstyle of capitalizing of mistakes from an enemy…
Interrupts are potentially so dang cool, but aside from 1v1’s, their potential just falls apart…

What I would like to see happen with Mesmers is getting the Domination Magic back in their hands, and reward them with an active interrupt style of play – capable but not restricted to 1v1’s

Imagine a trait like this;
Daze all enemies for 0.5s in an area upon interrupting a skill (range 900-1200)
This would punish a whole team when playing against an Interrupt Mesmer, fearing spamming certain combos or chains because said Mesmer could literally make you incapable of fighting for a few seconds…

I’m afraid that this would make Halting Strike too strong. The problem with interrupt mesmer is that many people who play it just spam daze mantra and and hope for a random interrupt. This trait would actually support bad gamplay just because there’s almost always something to interrupt. It wouldn’t be a trait that would require some thinking, just luck to interrupt and get Halting Strike to proc. And at the same time it wouldn’t improve the gameplay of players who think about their gameplay because the intterupt would be just another aoe cc and mesmers have those already. It wouldn’t punish anyone, because there’s literally nothing you can go about a cc with no cast time, it would just be annoying.

I’m sorry, spamming a limited number of available dazes is bad gameplay, but being a player who’s spamming attacks (channeled AA’s more likely) in the face of an interrupt Mesmer isnt? And that’s being generous. The window for landing interrupts is so narrow, if you’re spamming your dazes/cc’s you’re going to miss. And once you’re out your interrupt build is left weak and vulnerable.

You might have a fair point vs the suggested trait, but your misconceived with regards to interrupt mesmers in general.

Just as a side, wasting your Dazes on AA’s for HS procs is a great way to lose a fight. Waiting for key defensive interrupts, or offensive such as vs Healing skills, is good, superior play.

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Posted by: PowerBottom.5796

PowerBottom.5796

The biggest weakness of Mesmers that is essentially the reason only shatter-builds are played is the utter lack of condition-removal.

I disgree, phantasmal disenchanter is excelent condition removal especially if you’re using illusionary elasticity in the illusion tree. 4 bounces base 5 buffed each ideally curing two conditions or stripping two boons, I would not call that an utter lack of condition removal. Slightly delayed perhaps, but very good for teammates also. Traited it has what…a mere 16 second cooldown? Useful shatter fodder too.
There’s also arcane thievery and null field but those are longer cooldown of course.

Yepp, the only decent sustain-build I could come up with runs the disenchanter and I like it quite a lot. But you won’t run a disenchanter with a shatter-build.
The elasticity-buff is a bit misleading thoug, cuz illusions won’t hit a target more than once (tested it myself).

In terms of non-condition-related issues: One of the biggest is Illusionary Persona – It’s just so good and necessary, you’ll never run any shatter-build without it. And it’s so far up the tree, it kills any diversity in shatter-related builds. Wanna maybe do a shatter-build with conditions? Too bad, can’t have the torment on shatter, cuz you need Illusionary Persona. Wanna do sth. with condition-removal on shatter: no boonremoval on shatter and no clone on dodge OR no Illusionary persona…. -.-°

Why is illusionary persona absolutely necesary? I run maim the disillusioned with my condi shatter build and I find it absolutely amazing. I can imagine illusionary persona is useful in a burst build to get the most upfront damage out of shatters, but in a condi setup especially with ranged weapons maim is just so good I dare call it overpowered.

Edit: Forgot about mantra of resolve.

I need to check it out again then: Only toyed around with the maim a bit and I found it pretty bad.

Illusionary Persona isn’t necessary because of the added DPS, it’s because of the interrupt and diversion: On the F3 daze, you simply cannot time it well enough to interrupt heals etc. without it and both F3 and F4 are so situational and timing-based, you cannot always have Illusions rdy to activate them.
And if you want to have any chance of winning a 1v1 as a shatter-mesmer against a decent player, you’ll have to use F3 and F4 expertly. 1 Interrupt on a heal or a clutch skill often means winning the 1v1 as a shatter-mesmer.

*Edit: If you don’t wanna run the mesmer as a 1v1-build but strictly teamfight-oriented, I’d agree that IP isn’t absolutely necessary.

(edited by PowerBottom.5796)

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Posted by: Dondagora.9645

Dondagora.9645

I need to check it out again then: Only toyed around with the maim a bit and I found it pretty bad.

Illusionary Persona isn’t necessary because of the added DPS, it’s because of the interrupt and diversion: On the F3 daze, you simply cannot time it well enough to interrupt heals etc. without it and both F3 and F4 are so situational and timing-based, you cannot always have Illusions rdy to activate them.
And if you want to have any chance of winning a 1v1 as a shatter-mesmer against a decent player, you’ll have to use F3 and F4 expertly. 1 Interrupt on a heal or a clutch skill often means winning the 1v1 as a shatter-mesmer.

*Edit: If you don’t wanna run the mesmer as a 1v1-build but strictly teamfight-oriented, I’d agree that IP isn’t absolutely necessary.

Depends when you checked it out. The buff to 2 Torment stacks, as you might guess, doubled its potency.

The strength of it is that you only need condition damage to increase its DPS, so with that you can be taking Rabid or Carrion, or perhaps something with more survivability and a little less damage. Point is, you make up for burst with more sustainment, and this means a better ability to run right up to someone and throw clones to shatter right into their face, which also can mean easier lands with Diversion with a little extra damage. Sure, not as certain as iPersona where you basically drop the daze directly, but that’s just a trade off.

Anyway, back on topic. Mesmers have three main categories they fit in right now: Power Shatter[Main Meta], Lockdown[Sub Meta], and Condi Shatter[Sub Meta]. Some might argue Condi PU. Sure. All of these require clone generation for one reason or another. All of these take DE. The problem is clear. The solution, however, is not.

Having DE be innate is a lazy answer, but will also create problems for certain minorities. What we need, though, is easier access to DE and better ways to have illusions to shatter. Maybe a trait that doesn’t kill Phantasms when they shatter? Clone on interrupt? +1 Clone whenever you make a clone? Clone on crit[5s ICD]? Anything, really, to give us something to shatter.

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Posted by: Laraley.7695

Laraley.7695

Warrior main, Necromancer second, Ele third…

I find that the Mesmer now, aside from CI Interrupt Mesmer, does not even come close on the playstyle of capitalizing of mistakes from an enemy…
Interrupts are potentially so dang cool, but aside from 1v1’s, their potential just falls apart…

What I would like to see happen with Mesmers is getting the Domination Magic back in their hands, and reward them with an active interrupt style of play – capable but not restricted to 1v1’s

Imagine a trait like this;
Daze all enemies for 0.5s in an area upon interrupting a skill (range 900-1200)
This would punish a whole team when playing against an Interrupt Mesmer, fearing spamming certain combos or chains because said Mesmer could literally make you incapable of fighting for a few seconds…

I’m afraid that this would make Halting Strike too strong. The problem with interrupt mesmer is that many people who play it just spam daze mantra and and hope for a random interrupt. This trait would actually support bad gamplay just because there’s almost always something to interrupt. It wouldn’t be a trait that would require some thinking, just luck to interrupt and get Halting Strike to proc. And at the same time it wouldn’t improve the gameplay of players who think about their gameplay because the intterupt would be just another aoe cc and mesmers have those already. It wouldn’t punish anyone, because there’s literally nothing you can go about a cc with no cast time, it would just be annoying.

I’m sorry, spamming a limited number of available dazes is bad gameplay, but being a player who’s spamming attacks (channeled AA’s more likely) in the face of an interrupt Mesmer isnt? And that’s being generous. The window for landing interrupts is so narrow, if you’re spamming your dazes/cc’s you’re going to miss. And once you’re out your interrupt build is left weak and vulnerable.

You might have a fair point vs the suggested trait, but your misconceived with regards to interrupt mesmers in general.

Just as a side, wasting your Dazes on AA’s for HS procs is a great way to lose a fight. Waiting for key defensive interrupts, or offensive such as vs Healing skills, is good, superior play.

So what exactly is the player supposed to do? Just stand still and wait for the mesmer to kill him if you don’t have not channelled AA? It might not be effective, but my point was that most interrupt mesmers I’ve met just were spamming their mantra hoping for halting strike to proc. It did not obviously, I never stated it was effective. Just that the hypothetical trait would promote this play and might reward it.

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Posted by: Ouroboros.5076

Ouroboros.5076

I am a main Mesmer player and I used to be a enthusiast phantasm player. Why do I think it’s bad :

1. It’s the only “AI” build where the AI damage is actually bound to your stats. You either have weak AI, or you are pretty squishy yourself. And you are certainly more squishy than a zerk engie or necro …
2. The phantasms are easily destroyed by random AoEs. The most unfun matchup is against a GS mediguard, he just destroys you and all your phantasms by just going ham on you.
3. Playing a build that goes completely AGAINST your class mechanic is a weird feeling. It would be like playing an ele build that would lose all its DPS if it changes attunement.

On condi mesmers : I like the idea of playing a condi mesmer, but unfortunately most of the condi mesmer builds are atrocious to play with & against. There’s no skill involved in random procs and drowning people under pixels that generate conditions. Those builds are spamfests that do not promote skilled play, like someone said before.

With all that, there’s no wonder power shatter is the only viable build. The others simply can not be pushed forward or they will promote a bad gameplay.

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Posted by: Ithilwen.1529

Ithilwen.1529

I main a Condi/shatter Mesmer. Currently running Scepter / torch with energy and torment sigils and Staff with energy and torment. Soldier Amulet and runes of the Undead.

As to no skill, I did manage to down Chaos Archangel in a 1v1 after I was myself downed. I use shatter with [Maim the Disillusioned]. Yes, he got me the other 4 or 5 matches.

In an ideal world, I’d like to be a traditional shatter Mesmer. Shatter is a catch 22 in my opinion though.

Clones are slow “dumb” bombs and will miss 9 times in 10 unless the enemy is immobilized or otherwise confined to a very small area. The most reliable shatter is to aim at a downed enemy that is being rezzed. The clones are also often destroyed running in before they can do damage.

Shatter has a very large theoretical burst but in a real game, that’s pretty rare to see happen. More often you do pretty pathetic damage and use your cd’s.

Making the clones have better terminal tracking and some survivability would be a major incentive to play more toward shatter.

To mitigate that and have a chance of landing a shatter one needs to be close to the enemy.

On the other hand, most enemies can take out a Mesmer in seconds. This is especially true of a high cc class like a ranger or hammer user. So getting close is just short of suicide.

Clones are extremely delicate. This means that to be used at all in a shatter, they need to be used quite quickly. Most will not survive to the target. For this reason, clone production should not be nerfed again.

The logical response is to pick clone death traits and attempt shatters, knowing that most clones will be destroyed or miss and explode in a more or less random spot. If the shatter lands, so much the better. I actually count on my enemies defensively destroying the incoming shatter clones for my damage. A Mesmer-ish strategy.

In my view, ANET has a history of way overnerfing Mesmer and crippling the class. It’s usable at the moment if less than perfect.

Let’s not ask ANET for too many fixes.. historically speaking, we might well get crippled again.

With sufficient time, I have a reasonable chance to take a turret engi out.

Thieves are tough if they get the jump. They will go down though if they aren’t careful to hit the right target.

Guards and wars are similar, though they seem to have gotten tougher to kill lately.

With a necro I figure I can win if I want it bad enough.

Rangers … don’t even get me started on pew pew rangers.

Mesmerising Girl

(edited by Ithilwen.1529)

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Posted by: MailMail.6534

MailMail.6534

the thread being over run by Mesmer mains… sigh.

https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”

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Posted by: Jelle.2807

Jelle.2807

Some quality of life improvements that would help mesmer imo.

-Illusions ordered to shatter gain swiftness.
-Illusion counter does not count illusions running to shatter.

That last one is just annoying and pointless. Mechanically it’s perfectly possible to have more illusions out while others are still running to shatter, but the counter does not reflect this.

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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

Mesmers only have one viable build in high tier?
This is completely normal as all classes only have one viable build in high tier

Mesmers have no viable bunker options?
Most classes have no viable bunker options.
Not all classes were intended to bunk. Especially not classes with frequent stealthing.

Very few options for strong utilities? Portal and Blink are mandatory?
Every meta build suffers this same exact problem
Every class suffers this same exact problem because every class has a meta build

Mesmers have low mobility?
Second to best disengagement, beaten only by Thieves
High rotation speeds for everyone on your spvp team due to Portal Entre
Zergs instantly appearing around WvW maps on enemy sides, full of Omegas
Zergs infiltrating & back-capping SM castle from the inside out
Falling during JPs but insta-teleporting back to where you fell to keep going

Hard-countered by Thieves? Susceptible to condi pressure?
Every build in the game has at least one counter, if not two or three
Mesmers lack condi removal but make up for it with DPS and disengagement

Not trying to be sarcastic
Just pointing a list of things to consider
If I was to say Mesmer needed anything done to it at all
It would be one thing:

  • Blink creates a small AoE daze around the location cast and landed
I use the name Barbie on all of my characters.

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Posted by: Vieux P.1238

Vieux P.1238

Oh…i thought it was how to weak a mesmer.. cuz we already there..