Guild Wars 2

Bunkers builds are ruining free tournament pug tPvP. People are catching on to this trend. I was just in a game with 3 bunkers builds. 1 guardian and 2 elementalists. It’s simply impossible to dislodge these stupid builds from the nodes. When we miraculously manage to down one of them as a pug, they get revived by their bunker friend (because bunkers are not just specialized in holding nodes but reviving people too), and this goes on and on. When a point is contested it should be instantly grey and not giving points to either team. Unkillable builds are atrociously overpowered with the current PvP objective mechanics. Force people into more balanced builds, if they can’t kill anyone they should suffer for it, just as glass cannons should suffer too. Balanced builds make fun games, but extremes of the build spectrum don’t.

Totally agree with this, game switched from skill and team work to tanki ti tank~

It’s possible to deal with them given condition damage builds with Poison and optionally Chill, and boon removal builds. The bunker builds (Guardian and Ele) are overpowered, but it’s possible to deal with in meantime.

Where are all the Thieves/Mesmers to save the day? I thought they were OP.

The hot-join meta now has shifted so that you have 2 options:
bunker
thief

That’s pretty much it, since anything that isn’t a bunker gets 2-shot by thieves.

Maybe if anet actually fixed the thief problem we’d see more diversity.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Where are all the Thieves/Mesmers to save the day? I thought they were OP.

For the most part the Thief/Mesmer OP stuff is incredibly overblown. However, a Thief Sword/Dagger with Bountiful Theft, or a Mesmer with Shattered Concentration and Null Field can realistically deal with it due to the Boon control. Not perfect, since it’ll still take a little bit longer then it should, but it’s killable.

I really think when all is said and done if some people have their way (the people trying to get every class/build they can’t deal with nerfed), the PvP will end up with everyone as full DPS glass cannon builds because it’s “fair”.

Seriously getting tired of posts like this… It’s a learn-to-play issue, not a “OMG NERF IT QQ” issue.

Simply put, use conditions. I play a guardian and if you send a necromancer against me, I’ll die slowly due to limited condition removals but usually I can outlive it long enough for help to arrive – that is the jist of a bunker, is it not? Send somebody else with that necro — you’ll probably take the point in a short amount of time before my help can get there. Bunkers just buy time for help to arrive, so yeah, if you send that DPS who hits like a limp noodle I’m gonna win and you will whine “OMG BUNKERZ OP NERF IT ANET PLZZZ.” If you send a smart necro with somebody who has decent damage – I’m toast. It’ll either be your point or my help will show (hopefully) and it can be a 2v2 for control.

To sum it up, yes, if you send a 1 dps (namely meele) we can live for a long time. So send somebody who can pile the conditions on instead to take it slowly or send a condition and somebody else to take it fast. I won’t be able to withstand it long if they know what they’re doing. Quit crying for the nerf and use whats already available to counter it (because it does exist contrary to belief).

You fix the thief and you will have even more bunkers as nothing else can kill em without massive team work. And yeah team work is what the game should be all about, but it’s team vs team team work not team vs one person kind of team work.

@Ayetes and I guess every class can do that? Games are suppose to be made in a way every class can stand against one another. In the beginning when everyone had different builds and everything was sort of unknown everything stood a chance. Then people understood the power of a bunker and bam problem rose. Bunkers and healers always been the problem of every mmo gameplay.

Back in WoW a bunker blood DK took the flag nothing happened the whole match, a healer took it same story. Everything should be balanced in a simple way, absorb a little more damage then deal less damage, deal more damage absorb less damage. Problem is every class can heal themselves which is extremely good, yet some classes can heal way too much while others way too little. This combined with defense = instant win.

Take guardians for example, today I fought one with my warrior in Spvp we both almost death, I use my heal with max adrenaline bam! restored about 35% of my health, he used his signed bam restored 80%+ as he went from dying to full no problem, now his damage as a bunker was equal to mine and I am in a balanced dps spec. Now add protection, meditation heals and aegis and you got the mother of all opness.

Same happened with an elementalist, she kept switching from earth to water, my attacks dealt so little damage her regeneration kept her full the whole time, it took me, a ranger and a necro to down her. After quite a while too.

How do you call that balance?

People should not have to trait for the single specific purpose of countering a bunker, making their build bad against everything else. What a boring game if it ever comes to that. Being tanky is totally acceptable, but healing to full on top of it is not. Overpowered healing make some builds way too forgivable to the mistakes they make in combat, and to their obviously slow reaction times; they just eat your burst and press one button to get back to 80%+ hps. Damage and healing are not on an even playing field.

Lyonell.1753:

@Ayetes and I guess every class can do that? Games are suppose to be made in a way every class can stand against one another. In the beginning when everyone had different builds and everything was sort of unknown everything stood a chance. Then people understood the power of a bunker and bam problem rose. Bunkers and healers always been the problem of every mmo gameplay.

…

How do you call that balance?

I didn’t ever say it was balanced. I agree it needs to be fixed (albeit not by that much), and the Bunker builds are far too resilient against most direct damage users. I’m merely offering advice on how to deal with it in the meantime.

I always find this topic interesting, people insist that bunkers are OP. However, nerf the bunkers and see what happens. I think it’s really a choice, if you nerf the bunkers, you open up only a high dps meta game, if you don’t, bunkers will still be the driving force in capture point tpvp. One interesting note, is how little people seem to understand about bunkering elementalists. The thing is, it’s one of our view viable tpvp builds, and relies heavily on the skill of the player, due to the amount of combo fields, and the management of blast detonations there-in, that are required to effectively heal the damage we take. All in all, it’s a situation where if you nerf the bunkers, high dps will be OP, and if you don’t, bunkers will continue to control the tpvp scene (just saying.. it is a point capture and hold based game, so defensive builds will always be present in one incarnation or the other).

Elementalists just need their other builds fixed. It is not, however, a reason to allow these type of builds to dictate the gameplay and game outcomes. Anet didn’t want healers for a reason. Right now it’s just a different version of the same thing that happens in other games.

Problem is not nerfing bunkers, problem is bunker + too many sources of healing is like mixing a tank with a healer into one. Leaving the dps obsolete. I’m perfectly fine with someone barely taking damage as long as their damage is just as crappy. Now when that person packs a punch and takes no damage back there is a problem. Now you add the incredible amount of heals and you get and boom it becomes OP.

Elementalist takes a lot of skill yes, but when you give a class some many opportunities and leave others in the darkness you also know you got a problem.

They just need to make it so that BALANCED builds are rewarded. Games become boring when healing output is as good or better as damage output. Your life and your opponent’s life should both be going DOWN over time, with only minimal healing until the fight is OVER. Skills should be about reactive mitigation to your opponent’s burst damage, or strategic condition removal against condition damage builds.

Bunkers are fine man, stop complaining. I can take them on my Thief, Necromancer and Warrior. 50% of the time I lose eventually but still, they are fine.

“shaolin.9716

Bunkers builds are ruining free tournament pug tPvP."

Sorry, but the game should not be balanced around “free tournament PUG tPVP”.

Bunkers are fine man, stop complaining. I can take them on my Thief, Necromancer and Warrior. 50% of the time I lose eventually but still, they are fine.

A condition necromancer can take out bunkers (and strip their warm cozy boons).

Sorry but people who pug tPvP paid for the game too and deserve some reasonable balance in the PvP they choose to participate in.

Well, your “already” will have to wait 5 more days because they are patching so, no really sense to complain at this moment.

The game isnt solely based around any one type of play.

Bunker builds will probably get nerfed, since Jon has mentioned he is aware of them.

Should be an update coming in the next week or so (they seem to come out once a week) and we might see some changes then.

Chaotic.9742:

Seriously getting tired of posts like this… It’s a learn-to-play issue, not a “OMG NERF IT QQ” issue.

We’ll see. I have a feeling it will be addressed, hopefully allowing bunkers to be viable but not necessary.

As it stands right now, I would argue that they are bad for the e-sport scene that ANet wants gw2 to have.

Can you imagine the announcers?

-"And there is Bunker1 on point… still on point… yup, holding point… "

-“It looks like thief1 is going to engage bunker1… never mind, he said kitten it and turned around.”

Cogbyrn.7283:

Where are all the Thieves/Mesmers to save the day? I thought they were OP.

Bad logic is bad.

OP doesn’t mean uncounterable. For example, I could make a class with one skill that that can insta kill any class except guardian from anywhere on the map. He would be fairly easily countered by a Guardian, but he would still be clearly and brutally OP.

Currently the bunker build is the anti-thief. Defensive builds in general hold up fairly well against a thief. Once/If bunkers are nerfed, thieves (as they currently stand) will have another day in the sun.

The idea of a node being instantly grey as soon as it’s “contested” is interesting.

@shaolin.9716

Forum ate my post. So instead I’m going to briefly discuss all your posts.

“Bunkers builds are ruining free tournament pug tPvP………builds make fun games, but extremes of the build spectrum don’t.”

It’s painfully obvious you only pug tPvP or just don’t know what you’re talking about.

“People should not have to trait for the single specific purpose of countering a bunker, making their build bad against everything else. What a boring game if it ever comes to that………..Damage and healing are not on an even playing field.

So let me get this straight. You expect to kill bunkers WITHOUT having to spec to kill bunkers?!? And on top of that you complain about it? What is your purpose as a roamer if not to kill bunkers? I really don’t understand this logic.

“Elementalists just need their other builds fixed. It is not, however, a reason to allow these type of builds to dictate the gameplay and game outcomes……Right now it’s just a different version of the same thing that happens in other games.”

If a player builds enitrely defensive with the sole purpose of holding a point, they shouldn’t be able to? Do you understand the basic principles of how territory based PvP works?

I don’t know why I always feel compelled to chime in on these numerous threads…

I usually play a bunker engineer whether I’m in a premade or pugging, because I like the way it plays and it’s viable but not OP.

I realize there are balance tweaks that need to be made, and I’m okay with that. Some builds still have great support, control, damage, and survivability, in a game where we were supposed to have to choose. I just hope we are still allowed to choose point defense, especially since the only game mode is point defense.

People who play bunkers do so as a reaction to powerful burst builds. The players who really lose out are the ones who enjoy using balanced builds, since they lose to burst and can’t kill bunkers. Unfortunately, nerfing bunkers won’t make balanced builds any better, so…I’ll give you three guesses to what kind of builds we’ll see after that.

I haven’t seen a single one of shaolin’s posts merit any real logic behind the complaints except for “i play x and y makes it too hard”, so I don’t expect this post to be any better.

There are a lot of bunkers because there are a lot of glass cannons… there are a lot of glass cannons because the benefit of running one via 8v8 sPvP… at the current stage, you either adapt to it (which is both easy to do and profitable in tPvP) or you continue to make posts on this board whining and complaining, which is what he chose to do… AGAIN.

And…

Ele’s are overpowered now.

Interesting meta switch.

Though nothing else has changed, it’s just an addendum apparently. Now it’s:
Mesmers/Thief/Guardians/Elementalists

Anyone want to start a pool on the next class to be added to the axis of evil? Say, 5 gold buy-in?

Braxxus.2904:

And…

Ele’s are overpowered now.

Interesting meta switch.

Though nothing else has changed, it’s just an addendum apparently. Now it’s:
Mesmers/Thief/Guardians/Elementalists

Anyone want to start a pool on the next class to be added to the axis of evil? Say, 5 gold buy-in?

5 gold is still a lot for me, as in I don’t have that much to pay.

However, my vote goes for Engineer, with Necro being a close second.

Most classes have some kind of “OP build”, but that doesn’t make the class itself OP, it’s just that particular build.

This thread in particular is specifically about bunker builds which are extremely boring, both to play as and to fight against. Also boring to watch, and if you want this game to be an e-sport, it HAS to be fun to watch!

They’re getting nerfed, make no mistake, but they’ll always have a place in the game regardless simply because they can hold a point longer than anyone else. Even if it’s just 5 seconds longer, that can make a huge difference, but right now it’s more like a minute longer than any balanced build. That’s wrong and bad and should never, ever happen.

The game needs build diversity. I shouldn’t even have to explain why, really.. The reasons are self-evident. And leaving things the way they are now is going to result in further build homogenization more than anything else. That’s bad. Fix, please!

Cogbyrn.7283:

5 gold is still a lot for me, as in I don’t have that much to pay.

However, my vote goes for Engineer, with Necro being a close second.

Good point.

How about 5 gold or 2 arcane slivers?

@Sezu.8564
Yes, I only pug tPvP. So what? If anything, sharing my concerns can only show what puggers have to endure. This game will not have the success it deserves without making the gaming experience of casuals and puggers as enjoyable as for everyone else. The way you explain how the game works make it sound extremely dull, basically just running around until you encounter what your build counters. But then, where is the fun in winning that fight since it was obvious you were supposed to win from the start? Every build needs to stand a fair chance against any other build, period. I wouldn’t mind a little skewness in the expected outcome of a fight but this is far from what we have right now.

@aydenunited.5729
It’s funny that you would attack my logic. I haven’t brought up a single issue which wasn’t already a hot topic, with a general consensus to which I only added my own arguments. Glass cannon builds are just as bad as bunker builds and should be looked into. However, non-thief glass cannons are not as big of a problem because they have to fight in the open and actually expose their fragility to their opponent, making for much more fair fights, which is why you mostly see well deserved complaints against thief glass cannons. These things simply cannot exist in a game considered to be balanced. Hopefully, balance patches will keep rolling and improving the gameplay for everyone.

Thread too long, didn’t read most of it, but I hear people saying time and time again > “Use conditions against bunker, necro will kill a guardian eventually”

No. There is not a single class or spec that can solo a good guardian bunker. This probably also stands true for elementalist bunker, although I have not played one, so cannot say for sure.

Anyone who disagrees is welcome to contact me in-game and have a shot.

I play the kitten out of guardian bunker, as it is such a useful tool in tpvp, however, I wont try to pretend they aren’t op. Because they are. However, they formed on the most part due to everyone running glass cannon builds.
Something needs done about both ends of the spectrum

if you don’t any classes who can bunker the new meta would be ppl just focusing on sick burst and running 4 dps + support

Funnily enough the counter to a bunker guardian is knocking him off the point….

If you are able to neutralise the point he’s standing on, he’s wasting his time which means you are gaining from the action not them. Unless his help arrives quicker than yours.

Anything with knockback CC is good vs bunkers. If it’s Bunker vs Bunker the most efficient bunker will be the one with the most CC.

I think you see where I’m going with this.

It’s not the bunker that’s the problem, it’s that you need to see why they are bunkering in the first place, holding the point. If you neutralise, what’s the point in the bunker?

Hsulf so a guardian himself Defending the FOTM States Of Guardians , Learn From Beethehunter where he cleary stated that bunker guardians are op as everyone knows by now , so let’s wait for next monday where the glorious patch is going to hit ^^

Hsulf makes a very good point, due to the rate at which a point decaps, compared to the capture rate, assuming both bunkers (or players, if one is not bunker) have similar knockbacks, the point will be decapped, then stay decapped until backup arrives to kill either player.

However, a guardian that is really on the ball, has several tools available to him to keep that point as long as possible.

In khylo, if I see another bunker heading to clocktower alone, I will swap out my mace + focus for a hammer, leaving me with hammer and sword+shield.
Along side the utilities I run, this gives me:

1 heavy single target knockback, sends a player right down to level 1 in clocktower.
1 smaller, aoe knockback.
1 ring of warding to block entry to the point.
1 root ^^
1 teleport on short cd, so that I can instantly return to the player in the point if he manages to knock me off
2 stun breakers, used right after knockback for minimal downtime, and insta teleport.
1 6s stability on fairly short cd.

If I am particularly worried about cc, I can also bring along hallowed ground as a 3rd utility, 12 seconds of aoe stability, on a 80s cd.

In practise, it doesn’t always work this way, as I’m human and make stupid errors in the heat of the moment, but someone playing a guardian better than me, can really stay on that point indefinitely, paying attention to enemy animations, and boons.

@Upthelronz

Firstly his name is BigTeeHunter (not BeeTheHunter) so clearly I’m reading an understanding a fair bit more than you think ;p

Secondly, what are we going to expect from this glorious Monday patch? That guardians, necro, eles and engineers that their hp pools are going to be halfed? That soldier amulets, cleric amulets and sham amulets are going to be nerfed? That all CC is taken off all hammers and shields are no longer useable?

Thirdly my main is technically an ele, but I still play 4 classes and if something is op I will say it’s op.

I’m not sure what you want this patch to do, but it won’t be doing anything drastic as it will change the balance of the game completely, meaning we won’t have any private servers and paid tournaments until full balance is achieved.

Bunkers are not OP. They are just part of any classic mmo, moba game ever created. In lol almost a year ago people were moaning about 5 tank teams, and how tanky dps ruined the game. We’re going through that now, and they ended up ok.

Chaotic.9742:

Seriously getting tired of posts like this… It’s a learn-to-play issue, not a “OMG NERF IT QQ” issue.

Simply put, use conditions. I play a guardian and if you send a necromancer against me, I’ll die slowly due to limited condition removals but usually I can outlive it long enough for help to arrive – that is the jist of a bunker, is it not? Send somebody else with that necro — you’ll probably take the point in a short amount of time before my help can get there. Bunkers just buy time for help to arrive, so yeah, if you send that DPS who hits like a limp noodle I’m gonna win and you will whine “OMG BUNKERZ OP NERF IT ANET PLZZZ.” If you send a smart necro with somebody who has decent damage – I’m toast. It’ll either be your point or my help will show (hopefully) and it can be a 2v2 for control.

To sum it up, yes, if you send a 1 dps (namely meele) we can live for a long time. So send somebody who can pile the conditions on instead to take it slowly or send a condition and somebody else to take it fast. I won’t be able to withstand it long if they know what they’re doing. Quit crying for the nerf and use whats already available to counter it (because it does exist contrary to belief).

FINALLY someone who agrees with me. I made a post some time ago with the “learn how to play” (not in an ironic way) and people jumped on like thiefs.

First of all, you saying it was a pug can already rest my case.

It’s a fact. Just please, common sense.

I think a large majority of the people making complaints, in general, are playing hotjoin where they are used to playing vs multi guardians as burst classes.

Chaotic.9742:

Seriously getting tired of posts like this… It’s a learn-to-play issue, not a “OMG NERF IT QQ” issue.

Simply put, use conditions. I play a guardian and if you send a necromancer against me, I’ll die slowly due to limited condition removals but usually I can outlive it long enough for help to arrive – that is the jist of a bunker, is it not? Send somebody else with that necro — you’ll probably take the point in a short amount of time before my help can get there. Bunkers just buy time for help to arrive, so yeah, if you send that DPS who hits like a limp noodle I’m gonna win and you will whine “OMG BUNKERZ OP NERF IT ANET PLZZZ.” If you send a smart necro with somebody who has decent damage – I’m toast. It’ll either be your point or my help will show (hopefully) and it can be a 2v2 for control.

To sum it up, yes, if you send a 1 dps (namely meele) we can live for a long time. So send somebody who can pile the conditions on instead to take it slowly or send a condition and somebody else to take it fast. I won’t be able to withstand it long if they know what they’re doing. Quit crying for the nerf and use whats already available to counter it (because it does exist contrary to belief).

FINALLY someone who agrees with me. I made a post some time ago with the “learn how to play” (not in an ironic way) and people jumped on like thiefs.

First of all, you saying it was a pug can already rest my case.

It’s a fact. Just please, common sense.

I don’t even have that much problem with thiefs (like many elementalists I know in game don’t have too), of course there’s some really good thiefs, and they kill me, but they are just better than me, and even in this case it’s a close fight and sometimes I get the kill.

Yes please nerf these guard bunker builds. it is stupid. the amount of blocks, heals , etc is … just too much. you should be able to 1v1 these guys, it should just take a long time, and some luck. And 2v1 should definitely beat them – and without taking 30 secs. All I see in tPvP now is 2 guard builds over an over. hohum.

Decreasing the efficiency of bunker builds while leaving thieves in their current state would just lead to an even greater influx of thieves. You would just trade one evil for another.

And believe me…I hate guardian bunkers even as a necro.

Psikerlord.2569:

Yes please nerf these guard bunker builds. it is stupid. the amount of blocks, heals , etc is … just too much. you should be able to 1v1 these guys, it should just take a long time, and some luck. And 2v1 should definitely beat them – and without taking 30 secs. All I see in tPvP now is 2 guard builds over an over. hohum.

There is currently a bug where a guardian can block constantly for a good few seconds. Not entirely sure how it is triggered, but think it is to do with mace skill #3. This definitely needs to be fixed.

Also, not sure why you assume all bunkers should die 1v1? If that is so, it also must hold true for the other end of the spectrum and all glasscannon builds need to be able to win 1v1’s every time. And if they are not winning, that is unbalance. That attitude just promotes everyone going glasscannon.

Psikerlord.2569:

Yes please nerf these guard bunker builds. it is stupid. the amount of blocks, heals , etc is … just too much. you should be able to 1v1 these guys, it should just take a long time, and some luck. And 2v1 should definitely beat them – and without taking 30 secs. All I see in tPvP now is 2 guard builds over an over. hohum.

you don’t have to kill guardian to capture the point he was guarding and if you nerf all the bunker’s to lose easily in 1v1 why would you play bunker anymore? and the mode in gw2 is conquest if all the bunkers would be bad everyone would be running zerg dps

Fallacies. FALLACIES EVERYWHERE.

Let’s get one thing straight. Glass cannon is NOT > everything else. They’re supposed to be countered by balanced builds that can mitigate their damage while dishing out considerably more than the bunker builds. Unfortunately, the bunker builds are just so OP that they can kill glass cannons while being completely impervious to damage. That is indisputably wrong. Most glass cannons are so squishy that the advantage of greater damage is completely offset.

Secondly, thieves are just better at the glass cannon role than everyone else. This is a fact. That will undoubtedly change.

Thirdly, there IS such a thing as a middle ground. Everyone’s jumping to the ridiculous extreme that some kind of nerf means nerfing into the ground, which makes NO SENSE AT ALL. They can be brought down to a level where they are useful but NOT ridiculously OP like they are now.

Finally, EVERYONE SHOULD DIE 1v1. EVERYONE. NO EXCEPTIONS. In a capture point-style game, any class that can win 1v1s even 10% more often than not is absolutely unbalanced. The points are supposed to MOVE. They are NOT supposed to be STATIC. I shouldn’t even have to explain why it makes for terrible capture point gameplay if one player is able to hold a point almost indefinitely even when there are two players attempting to capture it!

You play bunker to hold points longer. That’s IT. You do NOT play bunker to win 1v1s more often, and certainly not to be able to hold off 1v2 situations with such ridiculous ease. I can’t even believe this argument is being made. You’re just proving how utterly OP you are with such assertions that you should be able to maintain such an advantage. Please, continue, if you really, really want to make yourself look completely out of touch with reality.

Ayestes.1273:

It’s possible to deal with them given condition damage builds with Poison and optionally Chill, and boon removal builds. The bunker builds (Guardian and Ele) are overpowered, but it’s possible to deal with in meantime.

both can remove conditions you know…

Zyrusticae.7245:

Fallacies. FALLACIES EVERYWHERE.

Let’s get one thing straight. Glass cannon is NOT > everything else. They’re supposed to be countered by balanced builds that can mitigate their damage while dishing out considerably more than the bunker builds. Unfortunately, the bunker builds are just so OP that they can kill glass cannons while being completely impervious to damage. That is indisputably wrong. Most glass cannons are so squishy that the advantage of greater damage is completely offset.

Secondly, thieves are just better at the glass cannon role than everyone else. This is a fact. That will undoubtedly change.

Thirdly, there IS such a thing as a middle ground. Everyone’s jumping to the ridiculous extreme that some kind of nerf means nerfing into the ground, which makes NO SENSE AT ALL. They can be brought down to a level where they are useful but NOT ridiculously OP like they are now.

Finally, EVERYONE SHOULD DIE 1v1. EVERYONE. NO EXCEPTIONS. In a capture point-style game, any class that can win 1v1s even 10% more often than not is absolutely unbalanced. The points are supposed to MOVE. They are NOT supposed to be STATIC. I shouldn’t even have to explain why it makes for terrible capture point gameplay if one player is able to hold a point almost indefinitely even when there are two players attempting to capture it!

You play bunker to hold points longer. That’s IT. You do NOT play bunker to win 1v1s more often, and certainly not to be able to hold off 1v2 situations with such ridiculous ease. I can’t even believe this argument is being made. You’re just proving how utterly OP you are with such assertions that you should be able to maintain such an advantage. Please, continue, if you really, really want to make yourself look completely out of touch with reality.

I really couldn’t agree more.

I raised these exact concerns throughout Beta and yet people were so willing to defend bunker builds, constantly stating “But they can’t kill you as they deal no damage!”.

Er, yes they do. In fact, they deal plenty enough damage to kill you after you’ve thrown everything at them.

It really is an issue that has been here since September 2011 when I began playing and hasn’t changed one bit. In fact, it has actually gotten worse based on the sheer number of people doing it.

What are the guardians going to be useful for when necro bugs are fixed and become more valuable to a team comp? Plauge signet fix among other stuff should make necros competetive and more abundant. Nerfing bunker builds now when the meta isnt established could backfire. Guardians may lose their competetive edge with a nerf. That being said, guardian bunkers are a pain right now. Guardians will be quick to point out that condition damage destroys them…Just bring a necro they say.

What does a necro bring to a team comp? They have no real access to stability (no good at stomp/rez and get cc), no real burst damage, and limited cc. Their only strength in the meta seems to be boon stripping and area control via wells/marks. Their condition damage is removed alot. They may be viable in a team that runs alot of condition damage to wear them down. But i would argue that your better of bringing something else unless you got a pro necro. We all know that a necro takes way too long to kill your guardian. And if a team has to bring 2 to kill one you have already done your job. I am only r11 and currently new to this so correct me if i am wrong.

shaolin.9716:

People should not have to trait for the single specific purpose of countering a bunker, making their build bad against everything else.

wait… dont the bunkers have to do the SAME thing? spec and gear to counter bursty types and leave ourselves bad against everything else???
you think I have fun with my shield and mace trying to run after a necro who is stacking conditions on me and hitting him for 200 damage per swing? crying as I have 15 stacks of poison an and vulnerability on me?
and its bad to have vitality and healing in the same spec but its ok to have crit AND crit damage in one spec or power AND condition damage?