Guild Wars 2

Really? 50% win rate last season. 0-15 now. # matches in a row enemy pinned us at our spawn in Nifhel. You really suck at matchmaking.

The matchmaker got changed. the system uses your last seasons bracket to place you NOT MMR. So 50% win rate is not relevant.

If you are losing that much, why not queue at midnight? It will allow you to win above your skill level.

4 games in a row, pinned at home on Nifhel

yeah, ill wake up at midnight to queue, really? thats the solution?

The reason for this has been explained in a dozen threads now. The general consensus is let the kitten league sort out. We KNEW this is what would happen. Nearly every PvPer that asked for exactly for this system knew this would happen. The issue is alot of those people didn’t realize where there skill level actually was. Now that were being partnered by tier instead of by Win/Loss ratio people are getting harsh wakeup calls.

Let the max tier people get where they need to go. It won’t take the much longer to spread out. But making rage posts cussing out Anet for giving us EXACTLY what the vocal portion of our community asked for is not exactly bright…nor is it fair to Arenanet.

Shadelang.3012:

The reason for this has been explained in a dozen threads now. The general consensus is let the kitten league sort out. We KNEW this is what would happen. Nearly every PvPer that asked for exactly for this system knew this would happen. The issue is alot of those people didn’t realize where there skill level actually was. Now that were being partnered by tier instead of by Win/Loss ratio people are getting harsh wakeup calls.

Let the max tier people get where they need to go. It won’t take the much longer to spread out. But making rage posts cussing out Anet for giving us EXACTLY what the vocal portion of our community asked for is stupid.

Youre wrong about one thing. MMR still affect the matchmaking hence this is not what players asked for. Players asked for a mmr reset which didnt happen. Instead Anet expanded the range of the mmr ladder which you can get teamed with, which means you can get worse or better players than you normally would in your teams. Besides that, the game now also just matches you with people in the same division but that gets totally messed up when the mmr comes to play as well so sometimes you end up with hamster players because theres no one else to pick from at that time and place.

What about being fair to the players ( like myself ) who are being trampled by the “max tier people?”

We are also significant to the game, I hope.

Yeah ok. How the hell does that explain such lopsided losses? And don’t be the customary tool that says its my skill level. By luck alone, anybody should win by their 15 match, really?

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

Yeah ok. How the hell does that explain such lopsided losses? And don’t be the customary tool that says its my skill level. By luck alone, anybody should win by their 15 match, really?

The reason for such lopsided losses is that a large portion of high tier players are in a lower tier right now. From what I read the current matchmaking tries to place a person with people of nearly the same skill level. Meaning a high tier player is going to be partnered with high tier player. Then it tries to find opponents that exist in the same tier REGARDLESS of there skill level.

Say your on that opposing team. Youl ALSO have been assigned people near your (recorded) skill level. So you could have a full 5 people each of which is less skilled (as far as the game has recorded) than your opponents team.

This pretty much guarantees a lopsided match.

HOWEVER. Due to the win streak set up this means that the higher tier player will progress very quickly through the tiers. Quickly making it to the next tier where they will start fighting stronger opponents. It ALSO means that your team will be held behind them until they move on…making sure that your two groups are seperated over time.

Does it SUCK for people on the losing end of that? Yes. But it was inevitable. Even if they did a full MMR reset this would still be happening. As high tier players would have quickly seperated themselves out. The only difference then is that they would have dragged other players up with them. Players that may not necessarily be at the level that there representing.

As it is now the higher tier players ARE progressing forward at a quick rate. Soon none of them will exist in amber. And then emerald…saphire etkittenil they hit a point where the only people they have to fight is people that are at there level. Because those will be the only people still in range.

But until there seperated. Anyone that ISN’T on that forward curve is going to get shafted. Welcome to a ladder system.

Edit: As far as luck goes. This setup TRIES to take luck out of the equation as time passes. I.E. There will be less “luck” involved the longer the league happens. The most luck involved was in your very first match. Which likely decided which side of the curve you were on.

I’ll explain the lopsided games.

“Beginning with Season 2, matchmaking for Ranked matches will use your placement in your current league division as your primary matchmaking consideration and pair you against players who are placed in the same point range as you, regardless of the skill level (MMR) of the other people in that point range."

This is what they said how the season 2 MM system will work.

So actually to clarify something and please correct me if I’m misreading. The way the system currently works is it only considers MMR on your own team and not the full 10 players. So let’s say there’s 10 people queuing within an acceptable division range, 5 players are around 800 MMR and the other 5 are around 1000 MMR. Due to the fact that the system only considers making a team of 5 of similar MMR players at a time, the 5 800 MMR players will be put on one team and the 5 1000 MMR players will be on the other team. So what you get is high skilled players on 1 team and less skilled players on the other. Of course the result is the 800 MMR team getting stomped.

The result is you will never get a balanced team vs. balanced team like a team of 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players vs. 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players.

But with all said, I prefer the balanced team vs balanced team setup more.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

I’ll explain the lopsided games.

“Beginning with Season 2, matchmaking for Ranked matches will use your placement in your current league division as your primary matchmaking consideration and pair you against players who are placed in the same point range as you, regardless of the skill level (MMR) of the other people in that point range."

This is what they said how the season 2 MM system will work.

So actually to clarify something and please correct me if I’m misreading. The way the system currently works is it only considers MMR on your own team and not the full 10 players. So let’s say there’s 10 people queuing within an acceptable division range, 5 players are around 800 MMR and the other 5 are around 1000 MMR. Due to the fact that the system only considers making a team of 5 of similar MMR players at a time, the 5 800 MMR players will be put on one team and the 5 1000 MMR players will be on the other team. So what you get is high skilled players on 1 team and less skilled players on the other. Of course the result is the 800 MMR team getting stomped.

The result is you will never get a balanced team vs. balanced team like a team of 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players vs. 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players.

But with all said, I prefer the balanced team vs balanced team setup more.

The thing is eventually the teams will end up balanced. Or atleast so close it won’t matter. As different teams will progress at different rates. The 800mmr people SHOULD start fighting other 800mmr (or close) becuase they will be the only ones in range.

Atleast thats how I have understood it.

Shadelang.3012:

Oh Snapalope.1378:

I’ll explain the lopsided games.

“Beginning with Season 2, matchmaking for Ranked matches will use your placement in your current league division as your primary matchmaking consideration and pair you against players who are placed in the same point range as you, regardless of the skill level (MMR) of the other people in that point range."

This is what they said how the season 2 MM system will work.

So actually to clarify something and please correct me if I’m misreading. The way the system currently works is it only considers MMR on your own team and not the full 10 players. So let’s say there’s 10 people queuing within an acceptable division range, 5 players are around 800 MMR and the other 5 are around 1000 MMR. Due to the fact that the system only considers making a team of 5 of similar MMR players at a time, the 5 800 MMR players will be put on one team and the 5 1000 MMR players will be on the other team. So what you get is high skilled players on 1 team and less skilled players on the other. Of course the result is the 800 MMR team getting stomped.

The result is you will never get a balanced team vs. balanced team like a team of 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players vs. 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players.

But with all said, I prefer the balanced team vs balanced team setup more.

The thing is eventually the teams will end up balanced. Or atleast so close it won’t matter. As different teams will progress at different rates. The 800mmr people SHOULD start fighting other 800mmr (or close) becuase they will be the only ones in range.

Atleast thats how I have understood it.

Eventually it will work out yes you are correct. As the 800 MMR people will be the only ones in the suitable division range so 800 MMR vs 800 MMR games will happen. The question is how long will that take though and if it takes too long is this system worth it as you’ll be playing lopsided games for a while. Another thing I’m wondering about is the decreasing player population amplifying this as well.

@Oh Snapalope. Your right that the big question is if its worth it. Ultimately though if the games pvp is ever going to be taken seriously this kind of set up is almost mandatory. As in the previous mode there wasn’t actually any real way to know how good you really were.

We can see the evidence around us right now that alot of players thought that they were better than they were. And I know some friends that are currently very suprised at there progress (one of which im almost certain is tournament tier. But he never had the confidence to try for a team.)

So alot of people are getting slapped in the face. But on the other hand others are realizing they weren’t as bad as they thought they were. By the end of this league we should have the first accurate representation of where people actually are. Whether the game can survive the truth though… thats a whole nother problem.

Shadelang.3012:

The reason for this has been explained in a dozen threads now. The general consensus is let the kitten league sort out. We KNEW this is what would happen. Nearly every PvPer that asked for exactly for this system knew this would happen. The issue is alot of those people didn’t realize where there skill level actually was. Now that were being partnered by tier instead of by Win/Loss ratio people are getting harsh wakeup calls.

Let the max tier people get where they need to go. It won’t take the much longer to spread out. But making rage posts cussing out Anet for giving us EXACTLY what the vocal portion of our community asked for is not exactly bright…nor is it fair to Arenanet.

+1

Currently I climbed to sapphire really really quick. On the way there I would say about 10% of my games are even games, while the other 90% are full on stomps or full on getting stomped. This is seriously not fun for anybody. I’m really leaning towards this system being not worth it if we are forced to endure really broken matches for a prolong period of time.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

Currently I climbed to sapphire really really quick. On the way there I would say about 10% of my games are even games, while the other 90% are full on stomps or full on getting stomped. This is seriously not fun for anybody. I’m really leaning towards this system being not worth it if we are forced to endure really broken matches for a prolong period of time.

The hope though is that this is the only time this will be necessary. If it places us in the NEXT league based on the results of this league. Then much of this issue should be mitigated. And the time it takes to spread out should be even faster. Were in the data collection process of a new system. Until that data is filled out however there is a lot of blank spots.

As long as the system works the first time (accurate representation by the end of this league). Then itl be worth it. But if it fails. Then probably not so much.

Edit: also if people have a more accurate representation of where they were at at the end of this league. Then they will know about how far they need to get to start fighting even opponents and start progressing.

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Because its not random. Thats exactly what we were trying to tell you.
Edit: Infact it will become LESS random the longer the league runs. And even matchups will start to form NATURALLY instead of ARTIFICIALLY. Which is what the PvP playerbase asked for.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

4 games in a row, pinned at home on Nifhel

were they getting you at both gates?

when the opponent is pressuring my home i usually sneak to far and decap so they spread back out

Shadelang.3012:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Because its not random. Thats exactly what we were trying to tell you.
Edit: Infact it will become LESS random the longer the league runs. And even matchups will start to form NATURALLY instead of ARTIFICIALLY. Which is what the PvP playerbase asked for.

so you are saying they put 5 elites against 5 non-elites?

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Because it’s not completely random; you can’t rely on luck to land on a team that’s awesome and get carried. You get placed on your team by MMR, and then your opponent is picked at random from any team in the division.

So if the average division MMR is 1200 and you are an 800 MMR player with an 800 MMR team, you are statistically unlikely to win your matches until those 1200 MMR players get to a higher division. Over time, as all of the higher MMR players leave the lower divisions, you will end up with balanced matches against players of your own skill level.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

Shadelang.3012:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Because its not random. Thats exactly what we were trying to tell you.
Edit: Infact it will become LESS random the longer the league runs. And even matchups will start to form NATURALLY instead of ARTIFICIALLY. Which is what the PvP playerbase asked for.

so you are saying they put 5 elites against 5 non-elites?

Yes. But not out of maliciousness. They even added a win streak mechanic to hurry the process up. There just trying to give accurate representations of skill level. But that takes TIME. The longer the league lasts. The more even the games will get. Its even possible then itl be YOUR turn to roflstomp people for several games at a time. As only people at your level and those weaker than you will be around you. Then YOU will get pushed up to the place where you belong (When you start fighting even skilled opponents). At that point the elite players will be long gone from your perspective. Theyl be off in the higher devisions butchering eachother.

Shadelang.3012:

The reason for this has been explained in a dozen threads now. The general consensus is let the kitten league sort out. We KNEW this is what would happen. Nearly every PvPer that asked for exactly for this system knew this would happen. The issue is alot of those people didn’t realize where there skill level actually was. Now that were being partnered by tier instead of by Win/Loss ratio people are getting harsh wakeup calls.

Let the max tier people get where they need to go. It won’t take the much longer to spread out. But making rage posts cussing out Anet for giving us EXACTLY what the vocal portion of our community asked for is not exactly bright…nor is it fair to Arenanet.

You know those “max tier” players aren’t the only one’s shooting up right? It’s going to be a handful of those players and a handful of random players with a bunch of those “max tier” players stuck on kittenty teams at the bottom. The system is just going to massively and quickly increase the variance of misplaced people. It’s almost like it was designed with that in mind.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

Because it’s not completely random; you can’t rely on luck to land on a team that’s awesome and get carried. You get placed on your team by MMR, and then your opponent is picked at random from any team in the division.

So if the average division MMR is 1200 and you are an 800 MMR player with an 800 MMR team, you are statistically unlikely to win your matches until those 1200 MMR players get to a higher division. Over time, as all of the higher MMR players leave the lower divisions, you will end up with balanced matches against players of your own skill level.

YOUR MMR IS MEANINGLESS IF THE FOUNDATION FOR THE CALCULATION IS BASED ON GAMES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ENTIRELY ONE SIDED.

By your flawed logic. If you’re MMR is a 1200, but your skill is a 600. You’re going to be placed with some people of skill 1200 and play against 5 people of skill 800 and prove that you really belong in that 1200 bracket… because that’s not how math has ever worked in the history of time.

Hippo I feel like the one with the flawed logic is you. It feels like you created a conclusion and have since only looked at the information that feels relevant to you. Id ask you to look at the whole picture. However you seem determined to hate the current setup.

There is no reason for this system to not work. But it will take TIME till it sorts itself out.

There IS no focus on CREATING one sided matches. The one sided matches are a byproduct of the system getting data. The more data it has. The more accurate it will become.

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

The reason you might be on a winning team is that your MMR is high. So you are matched with other high MMR’s. Since your team will have a high MMR it is statistically more likely you will be competing against lower MMR’s so your MMR will increase and you will in general stomp. So success will be rewarded by being placed in higher and higher MMR teams.

Now lets say you just create your PvP account an dyou are an excellent player. And lets say many others do as well and the majority of those haven’t PvP’d before. Your MMR’s will all be at the same level I assume. Right?

So excellent you will be likely to be teamed with suck teammates. Now you loose and your MMR goes down. So you will be teamed with other people who lost. And most of them were folks who’ve never PvP’d … so you’ll loose again and your MMR will go down, now you will be teamed with folks with even lower MMRs.

So basically unless I’m missing something, if you randomly draw people whom can actually play in your first few games your MMR will go up and it will continue to be easier for you in your division. If you randomly get some new players your MMR will go down and things will only be harder from there.

Anet doesn’t give a flying kitten or they would have done something about the massive amount of players that hate the unbalanced system they have implemented.. laugh it up Anet employees but don’t be surprised when you are given your P45 after Black Desert comes out. There may be a small number of players here who are supporting the unbalanced system as they get to get nice win streaks but look at your stats Anet and see how your master plan is playing out

shion.2084:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

The reason you might be on a winning team is that your MMR is high. So you are matched with other high MMR’s. Since your team will have a high MMR it is statistically more likely you will be competing against lower MMR’s so your MMR will increase and you will in general stomp. So success will be rewarded by being placed in higher and higher MMR teams.

Now lets say you just create your PvP account an dyou are an excellent player. And lets say many others do as well and the majority of those haven’t PvP’d before. Your MMR’s will all be at the same level I assume. Right?

So excellent you will be likely to be teamed with suck teammates. Now you loose and your MMR goes down. So you will be teamed with other people who lost. And most of them were folks who’ve never PvP’d … so you’ll loose again and your MMR will go down, now you will be teamed with folks with even lower MMRs.

So basically unless I’m missing something, if you randomly draw people whom can actually play in your first few games your MMR will go up and it will continue to be easier for you in your division. If you randomly get some new players your MMR will go down and things will only be harder from there.

Eventually however anyone with a higher MMR than you will go outside of your range. And youl stop falling.

Shadelang.3012:

Hippo I feel like the one with the flawed logic is you. It feels like you created a conclusion and have since only looked at the information that feels relevant to you. Id ask you to look at the whole picture. However you seem determined to hate the current setup.

There is no reason for this system to not work. But it will take TIME till it sorts itself out.

There IS no focus on CREATING one sided matches. The one sided matches are a byproduct of the system getting data. The more data it has. The more accurate it will become.

I feel that you don’t have a basic understanding of how statistics work. If you don’t feel that the system is designed to create one sided matches then you’re beyond help and reasoning. The “data” you refer to seems to be proving that it does produce one sided matches because… that’s what it is designed to do!

TIME isn’t going to put people with falsely inflated MMR and therefore Rank back down in rank. They will just eventually quit because they’re not getting tossed in matches wildly in their favor and can’t cope with the possibility it was never their skill in the first place. In TIME they might wind up on the never win side in legendary, but is that really the goal here?

I’m determined to believe this game has an insane amount of potential. The rest of my thoughts aren’t so emotionally bound.

If my rank is 57, does that factor into the “Ranked” Arena matchmaking??

Shadelang.3012:

shion.2084:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

The reason you might be on a winning team is that your MMR is high. So you are matched with other high MMR’s. Since your team will have a high MMR it is statistically more likely you will be competing against lower MMR’s so your MMR will increase and you will in general stomp. So success will be rewarded by being placed in higher and higher MMR teams.

Now lets say you just create your PvP account an dyou are an excellent player. And lets say many others do as well and the majority of those haven’t PvP’d before. Your MMR’s will all be at the same level I assume. Right?

So excellent you will be likely to be teamed with suck teammates. Now you loose and your MMR goes down. So you will be teamed with other people who lost. And most of them were folks who’ve never PvP’d … so you’ll loose again and your MMR will go down, now you will be teamed with folks with even lower MMRs.

So basically unless I’m missing something, if you randomly draw people whom can actually play in your first few games your MMR will go up and it will continue to be easier for you in your division. If you randomly get some new players your MMR will go down and things will only be harder from there.

Eventually however anyone with a higher MMR than you will go outside of your range. And youl stop falling.

Again… you’re missing the problem! If you drop below average maybe for skill reasons or maybe because this system inherently creates a massive eruption of false positive predictions you’re only getting tossed with the worst players so your MMR wouldn’t necessarily reach an equilibrium. You’d eventually move on in terms of rank with a low MMR because you’re always on a losing team because you’re always with bad players. There is no logic to that system.

HipposWild.7185:

Shadelang.3012:

shion.2084:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

The reason you might be on a winning team is that your MMR is high. So you are matched with other high MMR’s. Since your team will have a high MMR it is statistically more likely you will be competing against lower MMR’s so your MMR will increase and you will in general stomp. So success will be rewarded by being placed in higher and higher MMR teams.

Now lets say you just create your PvP account an dyou are an excellent player. And lets say many others do as well and the majority of those haven’t PvP’d before. Your MMR’s will all be at the same level I assume. Right?

So excellent you will be likely to be teamed with suck teammates. Now you loose and your MMR goes down. So you will be teamed with other people who lost. And most of them were folks who’ve never PvP’d … so you’ll loose again and your MMR will go down, now you will be teamed with folks with even lower MMRs.

So basically unless I’m missing something, if you randomly draw people whom can actually play in your first few games your MMR will go up and it will continue to be easier for you in your division. If you randomly get some new players your MMR will go down and things will only be harder from there.

Eventually however anyone with a higher MMR than you will go outside of your range. And youl stop falling.

Again… you’re missing the problem! If you drop below average maybe for skill reasons or maybe because this system inherently creates a massive eruption of false positive predictions you’re only getting tossed with the worst players so your MMR wouldn’t necessarily reach an equilibrium. You’d eventually move on in terms of rank with a low MMR because you’re always on a losing team because you’re always with bad players. There is no logic to that system.

(Not really “again” you posted your previous reply AFTER the post your quoting here).

For the sake of argument after reading your previous post I stopped for a bit and attempted to piece the system together in my head. Here is the results I have reached.

Its largely going to be up to the human element here. If people are being forcefully partnered below there (actual) level. Then eventually their opponents will be people with lower MMR than what that person skill level SHOULD be at. Meaning that its likely that they will start to win matches due to the fact that they will outperform personally the other team.

So even if they say have a theoreticaly MMR of 600. And their team mates are between 550 and 650. If his ACTUALY skill level is at say.. 900. Then his impact on the match should be more and more significant. In the lower tiers a single good player can destroy multiple unskilled opponents. Even simply rotating properly can turn the game in his teams favor. Regardless of whether nor not the REST of his team is actually at kitten MMR skill level.

This is even more likely as the higher tier opponents get further and further away. Making it so that people that ARE higher MMR than him and likely those with bloated MMRs that are actually on or near his level.

I don’t think the MMR bloating is going to be as massive as you seem to think it is. Especially as the ability to lose pips and then tiers exists. Say I am a 800 MMR player. During the first match of my league I got partnered with someone whos SKILL level was at 1000. We win that match. Our MMR raises and we start a win streak.

Eventually I am going to hit a point where I am getting slaughtered by my opponents. I would guess this would start around ruby. As my MMR starts to rise artificially due to high level players around me my effectiveness in the match will steadily decrease. Just as the player that has had his MMR falling is becoming MORE effective in each match.

I am going to hit a point where I am dragging my team down so much we lose. Lowering my MMR. Its possible I will lose MULTIPLE matches. further lowering my MMR and causing me to lose pips. Causing me to be partnered with AND against weaker people. Don’t forget the current MMR takes the TIER and division you are in into account. So its not like rubies will be fighting ambers.

Its likely ill be stuck at the bottom of ruby. Until other ruby level players like the aforementioned player on the losing streak fill in the gaps left behind by the high tier players.

Your logic only works if the high tier players stay a relevant part of the low tier combat. But as they rise up there effect on the lower tiers will steadily dissapear. At that point the skill of the lower tier will start correct itself. As people with artifically low MMRs will start to dominate their opponents. Raising themselves back up since there now longer being held down by diamond/legendary quality players.

Atleast that is how the system seems to be designed.

I would like to make one more point as well. It makes ZERO sense for arena net to create a purposefully inaccurate system. They gain nothing from it. Infact they only stand to lose from it as far as I can tell.

Edit; even if your at the bottom of amber. Your opponents are still amber level players. If you can’t win matches against amber level players no matter WHAT your mmr or the MMR of your team mates happens to be. Then there is more than just your teams quality that is an issue.

Edit 2: Fixed some grammar issues >.< Im sure I missed more than what I got but I got the most obvious ones.

Im sorry for your losses but its not the MM that is broken. Its the set up of a league system.

I would say 60% of the people in the game know what level they are and are realistic. Instead of placing these people in diamond/ruby/sapphire rank and just letting them play towards a season reward. They are asking people to grind threw the league system.

I saw alot of people make it to legendary last season who probably shouldnt have and i truly question whether or not i deserved to there as well. I find it odd that so many people come to the forum screaming about MM when you need to ask the question.

Am i winning my 1 vs 1? Am i winning my 2 vs 2? Do i have enough mobility or range attacks to give support and different styles of winning fights?

Im finding more people come to the forum to complain just to complain. If you want to complain about legit problems/bugs/ actual problems. Im all for it, kick and scream to anet to fix there game. On the other hand when people just cry to cry i say you are not helping anything and simply put you lost 10 in a row because the people you are facing are better then you currently in your division.

Shadelang.3012:

HipposWild.7185:

Shadelang.3012:

shion.2084:

Buffalo Bruiser.3567:

if its “random”, then how is it possible that i have not been “randomly” placed on a team that wins? How is it that every game has been a destruction?

The reason you might be on a winning team is that your MMR is high. So you are matched with other high MMR’s. Since your team will have a high MMR it is statistically more likely you will be competing against lower MMR’s so your MMR will increase and you will in general stomp. So success will be rewarded by being placed in higher and higher MMR teams.

Now lets say you just create your PvP account an dyou are an excellent player. And lets say many others do as well and the majority of those haven’t PvP’d before. Your MMR’s will all be at the same level I assume. Right?

So excellent you will be likely to be teamed with suck teammates. Now you loose and your MMR goes down. So you will be teamed with other people who lost. And most of them were folks who’ve never PvP’d … so you’ll loose again and your MMR will go down, now you will be teamed with folks with even lower MMRs.

So basically unless I’m missing something, if you randomly draw people whom can actually play in your first few games your MMR will go up and it will continue to be easier for you in your division. If you randomly get some new players your MMR will go down and things will only be harder from there.

Eventually however anyone with a higher MMR than you will go outside of your range. And youl stop falling.

Again… you’re missing the problem! If you drop below average maybe for skill reasons or maybe because this system inherently creates a massive eruption of false positive predictions you’re only getting tossed with the worst players so your MMR wouldn’t necessarily reach an equilibrium. You’d eventually move on in terms of rank with a low MMR because you’re always on a losing team because you’re always with bad players. There is no logic to that system.

(Not really “again” you posted your previous reply AFTER the post your quoting here).

For the sake of argument after reading your previous post I stopped for a bit and attempted to piece the system together in my head. Here is the results I have reached.

Its largely going to be up to the human element here. If people are being forcefully partnered below there (actual) level. Then eventually their opponents will be people with lower MMR than what that person skill level SHOULD be at. Meaning that its likely that they will start to win matches due to the fact that they will outperform personally the other team.

So even if they say have a theoreticaly MMR of 600. And their team mates are between 550 and 650. If his ACTUALY skill level is at say.. 900. Then his impact on the match should be more and more significant. In the lower tiers a single good player can destroy multiple unskilled opponents. Even simply rotating properly can turn the game in his teams favor. Regardless of whether nor not the REST of his team is actually at kitten MMR skill level.

This is even more likely as the higher tier opponents get further and further away. Making it so that people that ARE higher MMR than him and likely those with bloated MMRs that are actually on or near his level.

I don’t think the MMR bloating is going to be as massive as you seem to think it is. Especially as the ability to lose pips and then tiers exists. Say I am a 800 MMR player. During the first match of my league I got partnered with someone whos SKILL level was at 1000. We win that match. Our MMR raises and we start a win streak.

Eventually I am going to hit a point where I am getting slaughtered by my opponents. I would guess this would start around ruby. As my MMR starts to rise artificially due to high level players around me my effectiveness in the match will steadily decrease. Just as the player that has had his MMR falling is becoming MORE effective in each match.

I am going to hit a point where I am dragging my team down so much we lose. Lowering my MMR. Its possible I will lose MULTIPLE matches. further lowering my MMR and causing me to lose pips. Causing me to be partnered with AND against weaker people. Don’t forget the current MMR takes the TIER and division you are in into account. So its not like rubies will be fighting ambers.

Its likely ill be stuck at the bottom of ruby. Until other ruby level players like the aforementioned player on the losing streak fill in the gaps left behind by the high tier players.

Your logic only works if the high tier players stay a relevant part of the low tier combat. But as they rise up there effect on the lower tiers will steadily dissapear. At that point the skill of the lower tier will start correct itself. As people with artifically low MMRs will start to dominate their opponents. Raising themselves back up since there now longer being held down by diamond/legendary quality players.

Atleast that is how the system seems to be designed.

I would like to make one more point as well. It makes ZERO sense for arena net to create a purposefully inaccurate system. They gain nothing from it. Infact they only stand to lose from it as far as I can tell.

Edit; even if your at the bottom of amber. Your opponents are still amber level players. If you can’t win matches against amber level players no matter WHAT your mmr or the MMR of your team mates happens to be. Then there is more than just your teams quality that is an issue.

Edit 2: Fixed some grammar issues >.< Im sure I missed more than what I got but I got the most obvious ones.

Well for starters I think the impact of one good player argument is very biased and not complete. How many 4v5’s do you win? The impact of one bad player can be significantly worse than the impact of one legendary player. I successfully 2v1ed finished both opponents on a held point in two separate games today. We still lost one of them by 200 points, and the other we won by around 5….

I think a core place we’re disagreeing that isn’t being spoken is that theoretically if both teams are relatively similar skill wise the impact of one player who is better than or worse than average would be significant. Unfortunately if you stack all the potentially good players on a team against all potentially worse players and there is a noticeable gap(which i believe is supported by the insanely lopsided matches) then the personal skill of one player isn’t really going to make a difference and their MMR won’t really balance.

The big issues with this system is that for players of the same skill level there will be insane variance in their placement ranges. Players are going to get frustrated and quit at some point. If their MMR is artificially high they’ll bump to a division they shouldn’t be at and go on a very bad losing streak. They’ll probably get to a level of rage way worse then their low friends because they thought they were legendary players…..

@HipposWild

I guess my point of view is that within a given devision the difference between skill level shouldn’t be that significant. Once people spread out there shouldnt be a massive difference between a team with lower amber mmr and higher amber mmr. The odds will still be against the lower MMR teams. But there SHOULD be victories at that point. Not just a losing streak. Meaning that due to the nature of amber they WILL start to progress to the next tier. Improving there MMR and repairing much of the damage done to there MMR in the process. By following that thought process to the end. In the end there should NOT be a massive difference in placement for people of similar skill levels.

Like you said. The effect of a single bad player can be massive. That holds true for the people with higher MMRs than they deserve as well. Eventually there going to cause there team losses. As the difference between there teams MMR and there opponents gets smaller and smaller the higher they get. Eventuall theyl be fighting people with almost the same “theoretical” skill level. Meaning he will cause there team to lose as he fails against his opponents. They will continue to fail in that devision until players that are actually of his skill level catch up and he is partnered with and against them.

Like I said in my previous post I believe this will happen around ruby. Becuase thats where a losing streak will start being TRULY painful (actual loss of achieved progress)

Which leads us to your last point. And that I feel is whats going to be the crux of this games future.

Whether the player base can HANDLE it. Theres a big difference between people that don’t mind being forced to improve to progress vs those that don’t. And I feel its the biggest difference between this system and the previous one. In the last system there was no real need to want to get better. Or even to know how skilled you actually were. No matter how good you are. No matter how hard you tried. The game would keep you at a 50/50 ratio as much as it could.

Your right. Players are going to get frustrated. I am sure SOME will leave. I doubt itl be a massive amount though. And if it is. Then it just goes to show that the playerbase itself was also flawed.

Ranked is meant to be competitive. It never was before. It was the ILLUSION of competition.

My final thoughts on the matter is this though. If the playerbase really DOES collapse over something like this. Then it was never good enough to actually become competitive as a whole. It would mean that despite all the people crying and screaming that there efforts didn’t matter were never actually what they thought they were.

Its kind of like how some people say Ranked is only for those that wan’t to take PvP seriously and want to actually improve there own skills and that unranked is right around the corner for people that want it.

Likewise. If the guild wars 2 pvp scene dies because the game is actually trying to push towards a competitive system. Then it was never going to BE competitive. Ever. And we should have stayed in the proverbial unranked and never moved forward.

If you think the match making during the start of the season is too chaos, feel free to take a look at this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Suggestion-PvP-Preseason-before-Season

I’m really happy about this change since now you can actually trust your teammates.
Sadly in ruby there are mostly premade groups paired against each other where the outcome is not decided by the guy who joins solo :/

I find it quite funny how everyone analyzes the system and even if my opinion is, that it’s very poor as it is, nobody realizes where the matchmaking has it’s actuall flaw:
The main idea (how I understood) was to get players matched faster and allow the high ranked players from last season to advance to where they “belong”. Now the problem with this is that the guys landing in the “hell bracket” actually lose interest in playing pvp, since they don’t win any games. So the pvp player base is slowly but inevitably shrinking, resulting in higher queue times, since obviously, you have less players spread over the divisions. This IS the flaw in your system.
I really do not understand how this system actually made it to production, because:
1. If a player belongs to diamond, he will make his way up, no need to make it easy for him
2. If you wanted the high ranked players to stay where they are, plainly dont reset them all into first division. Take a look at other popular games with world wide competions.
3. Players who didnt get far in season 1, for example because they didnt play much, will now get bashed
4. All the players who abused the mmr in season 1 and reached high divisions, will now get matched with pros and carried, since mostly the enemies are bloody noobs

As for me, pvp at this time reached its lowest point all time, so I will stay away untill things will change.

My question, Mr Lesh, would be; “Why did anet set up a system designed to give the majority of players long losing streaks and uneven matches?”

At the moment, I finally managed to get two pips into Emerald, ( again,) but I’m still stuck with ambers who have no clue. Therefore I may well get caught in this hole for days or weeks until those ambers become emeralds.. then I’ll still be stuck there.

20+ loss streaks are not fun. This isn’t an l2p issue. Many players would like to pretend it is. The contents of the forum say otherwise.

If it is anet’s goal to attract players to pvp, I’d say that having them hammered for days on end with repeated losses isn’t the best approach.

As a second question; Why is solo queue not available?

SoloQ is not available because there are not even enough players for regular Ranked Q at the moment. Take away the solo players and they will wait hours for a Ranked match.

I’d rather wait. Yes I know anet removed solo queue at least in part as a bandaid to low population. Still, what good does it do me to get a fast match and be hammered 640 – 40. This happened to me last night on Foefire.

Fine, I’ll wait for a good match. That would be far less burden than random matches that I start with very little to no chance.

Laserbolt.6731:

SoloQ is not available because there are not even enough players for regular Ranked Q at the moment. Take away the solo players and they will wait hours for a Ranked match.

So! If you play within a group that should be the price you pay. Solo players should not have to deal with premades at all. As is it right now pre mades are taking advantage/abuse the system. I can’t even tell you how many times I have faced 4 players groups. The current system is NOT fair and that doesnt even get into the MMR stuff.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Oh Snapalope.1378:

Shadelang.3012:

Oh Snapalope.1378:

I’ll explain the lopsided games.

“Beginning with Season 2, matchmaking for Ranked matches will use your placement in your current league division as your primary matchmaking consideration and pair you against players who are placed in the same point range as you, regardless of the skill level (MMR) of the other people in that point range."

This is what they said how the season 2 MM system will work.

So actually to clarify something and please correct me if I’m misreading. The way the system currently works is it only considers MMR on your own team and not the full 10 players. So let’s say there’s 10 people queuing within an acceptable division range, 5 players are around 800 MMR and the other 5 are around 1000 MMR. Due to the fact that the system only considers making a team of 5 of similar MMR players at a time, the 5 800 MMR players will be put on one team and the 5 1000 MMR players will be on the other team. So what you get is high skilled players on 1 team and less skilled players on the other. Of course the result is the 800 MMR team getting stomped.

The result is you will never get a balanced team vs. balanced team like a team of 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players vs. 2 1500 MMR players + 3 800 MMR players.

But with all said, I prefer the balanced team vs balanced team setup more.

The thing is eventually the teams will end up balanced. Or atleast so close it won’t matter. As different teams will progress at different rates. The 800mmr people SHOULD start fighting other 800mmr (or close) becuase they will be the only ones in range.

Atleast thats how I have understood it.

Eventually it will work out yes you are correct. As the 800 MMR people will be the only ones in the suitable division range so 800 MMR vs 800 MMR games will happen. The question is how long will that take though and if it takes too long is this system worth it as you’ll be playing lopsided games for a while. Another thing I’m wondering about is the decreasing player population amplifying this as well.

These are all good explanations (and questions) :]

Decreasing player population confirmed.

Evan Lesh.3295:

These are all good explanations (and questions) :]

Is there MMR decay system in place?

If so this kind of screws over vets that took a break right before the season started, as they will get put with noob team mates facing vet teams. How are they expected to raise their div or MMR that way? MMR is based on even matches, which is the exact opposite of what we have now.

Everyone took a break, because ranked was disabled and MMR from ranked and unranked is separated (as far as i know).

I’m pretty happy with the matchmaking so far. I haven’t seen any players on any team I’ve been placed on go directly to beast in Forest so right there that’s already an improvement over last season.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Everyone took a break, because ranked was disabled and MMR from ranked and unranked is separated (as far as i know).

Then that makes no sense. I last played in ruby, could have gone further but was playing other games. And was being paired with fairly decent players and had decent 400-500 games. People knew their jobs, didn’t do crazy dumb stuff. All meta builds.

I am not saying I am good, just average. But the players it has me playing with now…they are brand new to PvP or primarily play PvE. Players who have no idea how the map mechanic works (tranq, treb, beast, lord..) So I go on 10-12 loss streaks. But if I’m even average skill I should be 50-50 ish.

ArenaNet has no plans to bring back soloQ. They want it to be a team game. But since this is a free game (no subscription) they already have your money and if you quit playing it does not hurt them financially.

Chaba.5410:

I’m pretty happy with the matchmaking so far. I haven’t seen any players on any team I’ve been placed on go directly to beast in Forest so right there that’s already an improvement over last season.

Sounds like you’re one of the lucky ones.