GW2 sPvP is a big fail...

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Posted by: garethh.3518

garethh.3518

I’m sure I’ve played in more tournaments than most of the players in this tpvp forum. So no, my kind of competition is not ‘base’ level. I am not talking about friendlies. I am talking about facing people who want to be the best at all costs. Koreans are good, but they don’t rule ever game out there. Maybe stick to your korean fanboy games? Not worth talking to you anymore kid.

But how many with premades?
How many with premades with specific comps?
How many practice sessions and skype talks about other teams have you been in???

That is the essence of playing a game to be an esport.
Slapping ‘tourny’ onto the que system and pugging or working out duo’s with friends is something any game can have without even glancing in that direction. Good mid level gameplay and casual ‘tournaments’ seem to be the focus of everything you say. Don’t confuse that with ‘an esport’.

As a sidenote….
I consistently have been in the top 60~ of NA leaderboards when I ran slapped together premades, and easily could have been in Sataarcoeny’s group if I wanted to dedicate the time (tragically college and work are a bit more important).

(edited by garethh.3518)

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Posted by: Sprawl.3891

Sprawl.3891

I don’t know why the teams who left are even considered competitive anymore. They aren’t competing in gw2 due to not playing, so they are NOT a competitive team in tpvp anymore and it doesn’t matter why they left or why anyone other than me, myself leaves. I enjoy the game, and I play it competitively. When I see others play it competitively, it makes it even more fun. I don’t need the top team players from the past to come back or even stay to nurture my competitiveness. I just need people to compete with. And there are people compete with no matter how much you want to deny it. And that’s a competition. If that’s not your kind of competition, maybe find a new hobby?

Aaah.
See.
Finally, you talk about what you want from the game…
Just medium level play that can feel pretty competitive.

That has nothing, like at all, to do with an esport.
Cool, that you found what you want, thnks for the complete sidetrack. Anyways… now that you know… don’t go saying ‘people are raining on the esports parade and that is bad’ because you don’t really care.
You just want base level competition, not to have super leet korean teams playing the game 24/7 for the sake of prize money.

Good talk…

I’m sure I’ve played in more tournaments than most of the players in this tpvp forum. So no, my kind of competition is not ‘base’ level. I am not talking about friendlies. I am talking about facing people who want to be the best at all costs. Koreans are good, but they don’t rule ever game out there. Maybe stick to your korean fanboy games? Not worth talking to you anymore kid.

i think you are missing the point, you are saying you are competitive and play a lot, but you are playing vs lesser skilled players since all the good players left. It would be like if the NFL went on lockout and they put replacement players in, and the replacement players were like you saying “hey bro we are competitive, I’m a starting NFL quarterback, those guys dont play we would prolly beat them if they came back since they havent practiced” which is just LOL.

Being competitive in a small niche group of remaining players doesn’t mean you are better than people who used to play. It’s called promotion by attrition.

Sprawl – Necro – Eredon Terrace

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Posted by: XII.9401

XII.9401

guild wars 2 is not for you.

it is best that you go back to playing whatever game you were playing before.

Unfortunately, that is now how a successful team in life looks at things. If they more and more customers on top of what has already been lost then they will end up with less money made.

I doubt they cater for one person telling everyone to leave and ignoring the majority. Just sayin..

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Posted by: XII.9401

XII.9401

I don’t know why the teams who left are even considered competitive anymore. They aren’t competing in gw2 due to not playing, so they are NOT a competitive team in tpvp anymore and it doesn’t matter why they left or why anyone other than me, myself leaves. I enjoy the game, and I play it competitively. When I see others play it competitively, it makes it even more fun. I don’t need the top team players from the past to come back or even stay to nurture my competitiveness. I just need people to compete with. And there are people compete with no matter how much you want to deny it. And that’s a competition. If that’s not your kind of competition, maybe find a new hobby?

Aaah.
See.
Finally, you talk about what you want from the game…
Just medium level play that can feel pretty competitive.

That has nothing, like at all, to do with an esport.
Cool, that you found what you want, thnks for the complete sidetrack. Anyways… now that you know… don’t go saying ‘people are raining on the esports parade and that is bad’ because you don’t really care.
You just want base level competition, not to have super leet korean teams playing the game 24/7 for the sake of prize money.

Good talk…

I’m sure I’ve played in more tournaments than most of the players in this tpvp forum. So no, my kind of competition is not ‘base’ level. I am not talking about friendlies. I am talking about facing people who want to be the best at all costs. Koreans are good, but they don’t rule ever game out there. Maybe stick to your korean fanboy games? Not worth talking to you anymore kid.

i think you are missing the point, you are saying you are competitive and play a lot, but you are playing vs lesser skilled players since all the good players left. It would be like if the NFL went on lockout and they put replacement players in, and the replacement players were like you saying “hey bro we are competitive, I’m a starting NFL quarterback, those guys dont play we would prolly beat them if they came back since they havent practiced” which is just LOL.

Being competitive in a small niche group of remaining players doesn’t mean you are better than people who used to play. It’s called promotion by attrition.

Someone had to break it down for him, I guess.

The spvp current state is simple..they removed healing classes and replaced them by self heals and revivals of fallen allies.

The self heals resulted in OP classes that are just impossible to beat with other classes given the same skill level on either side. It also resulted in lack of team synergy and boring bunker or stealth fights. Don’t believe me? Go into the dueling arenas and see players who know how to face roll through the abilities play..boring as hell.

Even the top teams you don’t hear them focusing on a target by doing cc combos or chains or purposely burning their counter boons and removing them. All you hear is :hes going down hes going down! Im down im down! revive me!

They Fallen state simply rewards bad players and casuals. Any player here who played his class has run into the situation where he downs one or two out of 3 players and still ends up losing because of the downed state.

The problem is, even after they remove the downed state it won’t help because some builds and classes will go down insanely fast and this will result in people playing bunker/tanky builds and resulting in even more fighting. The downed state was introduced to compensate for lack of healers and removing it at this state of the game will only force people to go down the tankier even more boring path.

I think removing healers was an original idea which was:

Great for PVE since you are not at the mercy of a healer’s whim or gotta wait for one (anyone remembers wow dungeons/raids?)

And which overall was a bad idea resulting in:

-In people who loved playing the healer class avoid the game
Team based competitive pvpers avoid/leave the game since arenas are just 1v1 or 1v2 in competitive tourneys given the node capturing mode. Even if deathmatch is introduced eventually, you will feel a lack of synergy between group member as everyone is doing his own thing.
boring pvp
-OP classes
-Rewarding bad players via downed state
-Turning a potentially great pvp experience in wvw like DAOC into a pve zerg fest instead and alienating the open world pvp/DAOC crowd.

I just hope future games learn to avoid these mistakes.

(edited by XII.9401)

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Posted by: garethh.3518

garethh.3518

Kinda pessimistic Xll, on point for some things, but in general a really downtrodden take on it all.
The heal skill innately isn’t such an issue that it forces OP nigh unkillable builds, its’ main issue is detracting from group play (since it replaces healers) in a game with very little of it. At least imo.
Top teams not coordinating CC and whatnot is, yeah partly because there isn’t much to coordinate short of ‘when to throw out your kitten’, and partly because this game’s “top teams” are really mainly friends that would sit around the top 85 to 95% of any other game.

The downed state, at least the main issueswith it in my opinion is that it turns close fights into group wipes (since the winner usually always ends by getting his allies rezzed) and doesn’t replace anything GW2 took out for it (healers/tanks). Competitively, chain rezzing isn’t tooo strong, maybe a lil bit at best, but when pugging… it is REALLY REALLY obnoxious.

Expanding heal skills to pulse out aoe heals from the area cast would do wonders for opening up tweaks to the downed state (I wrote a massive thread on changes GW2 should have had, that was one of the first change I listed).

Anyways, yeah the bad group dynamic seems to be the game’s Achilles heal.
Most even mediocrely setup games can get away with tons of issues since they are based on, larger, group on group fights so things like positioning and coordination make a fairly large skill cap…

But conquest… it just slaughters casual play and doesn’t bring about worthwhile high level play for that sort of sacrifice.
SPvP zerging around a game devoid of near any group formation (front/mid/back) and group synergy ias a kitten choice for the main feature of pug play…
In TPvP, forcing backpoint bunkers to stay on/around node is a terrible deal. To boot the secondary mechanics always seem pretty mediocre…

(edited by garethh.3518)

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Posted by: Krakah.3582

Krakah.3582

and that’s why pvp is not popular nor watched by many and we have posts like this daily. you can disagree with me all you want but fact is there are very few who take pvp seriously and very few who enjoy watching streams and vids. the game mode is one of the many reasons this is the case.

Where are your facts lol? I don’t see 300 posts that spvp is failing. Just a handful of people who are trying to kill esports for whatever reason they want. sigh..

The lack of participation in game and in the forums is already a good indicator of the state of SPvP. Which relative to the rest of GW2 is very very stagnant.

SPvP had it’s chance at live when there was a critical mass of players. It will continue to stagnate without a prayer in hell of recovering. Think AoC, War Hammer, SWTOR as examples of lost opportunities when they had a critical mass of players.

As other brought up with the lack of resources, the burn to players is that GW2 PvP is a sad shadow compared to it’s predecessor.

-KNT- BG

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Posted by: Paradoxine.8192

Paradoxine.8192

Someone had to break it down for him, I guess.

The spvp current state is simple..they removed healing classes and replaced them by self heals and revivals of fallen allies.

The self heals resulted in OP classes that are just impossible to beat with other classes given the same skill level on either side. It also resulted in lack of team synergy and boring bunker or stealth fights. Don’t believe me? Go into the dueling arenas and see players who know how to face roll through the abilities play..boring as hell.

Even the top teams you don’t hear them focusing on a target by doing cc combos or chains or purposely burning their counter boons and removing them. All you hear is :hes going down hes going down! Im down im down! revive me!

They Fallen state simply rewards bad players and casuals. Any player here who played his class has run into the situation where he downs one or two out of 3 players and still ends up losing because of the downed state.

The problem is, even after they remove the downed state it won’t help because some builds and classes will go down insanely fast and this will result in people playing bunker/tanky builds and resulting in even more fighting. The downed state was introduced to compensate for lack of healers and removing it at this state of the game will only force people to go down the tankier even more boring path.

I think removing healers was an original idea which was:

Great for PVE since you are not at the mercy of a healer’s whim or gotta wait for one (anyone remembers wow dungeons/raids?)

And which overall was a bad idea resulting in:

-In people who loved playing the healer class avoid the game
Team based competitive pvpers avoid/leave the game since arenas are just 1v1 or 1v2 in competitive tourneys given the node capturing mode. Even if deathmatch is introduced eventually, you will feel a lack of synergy between group member as everyone is doing his own thing.
boring pvp
-OP classes
-Rewarding bad players via downed state
-Turning a potentially great pvp experience in wvw like DAOC into a pve zerg fest instead and alienating the open world pvp/DAOC crowd.

I just hope future games learn to avoid these mistakes.

Unfortunately, I agree with everything you said. No set healers is great for PvE, but for PvP it is absolutely terrible.

The idea was supposedly that ‘support’ could replace healers and any class would be able to contribute. What ended up happening was a casual as hell system that indeed even a kid could master, not just use. There is no depth to combat whatsoever, get the FOTM build and you’ll already be in the 90th percentile of players.

It wouldn’t even be so much of an issue if you could actually target your allies and apply buffs and heals directly, regardless of whether multiple classes can do it effectively. Literally the only thing you can do is kittenty AoE spam, every man for himself play, where the highest level of skill you can display is using a mesmer portal or a well placed timewarp for ‘team play’. Funny both skills come from one class. No other class could claim to be able to influence a battle as much as a mesmer and why should that be?

PvP in this game is a joke, though, the funny thing is they could still save it if they were willing to actually put forth some major changes, like targeted heals and buffs, for one thing, removal of rally system in sPvP for another.

The people who are supposed to be taking care of sPvP (who are they? I’ve never seen any talk at length on here) only throw in their little 2c in the ‘torunament threads’ where everyone has a huge circlejerk about how the scene is growing and they never, ever try to discuss the problems players have with sPvP outside of threads, again, pertaining to eSports!!!!!!11eleven.

Guild Wars 1 got away with minor changes (except to fix particularly bad FOTM builds) because it was on the whole, very balanced, at least, at certain times. The developers think they can do the same here, even though the situation is completely different, which would be frustrating enough without having to deal with the fact that when they do introduce changes, they are usually half baked.

  • Terrible communication with the player base
  • Ineffectual changes to issues that have been discussed at length by both good and bad players, which agree on a solution
  • No clear direction stated or implied by their actions
  • No pressure to do a better job of it

The simple fact is, the developers running sPvP care less about it than the players who still play it every day. They show a lack of understanding of their own system in talk after talk, but attempt reassure us by saying “we’re working on it”.

It’s time to realise that they get paid and that’s it. Excellence is not required.

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

People who are still playing GW2 come from GW1, they have never experienced a good and polished e-sports game. I dont want to insult anyone, I think its true.

Not sure what you’re talking about, but I think I can safely say 99.99% of decent pvpers in GW1 are disappointed in GW2 pvp and that many have already quit for other games, such as LoL.

Or waiting, like me, for a decent pvp system…but already lost pretty much all hopes..

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

and that’s why pvp is not popular nor watched by many and we have posts like this daily. you can disagree with me all you want but fact is there are very few who take pvp seriously and very few who enjoy watching streams and vids. the game mode is one of the many reasons this is the case.

Where are your facts lol? I don’t see 300 posts that spvp is failing. Just a handful of people who are trying to kill esports for whatever reason they want. sigh..

The lack of participation in game and in the forums is already a good indicator of the state of SPvP. Which relative to the rest of GW2 is very very stagnant.

SPvP had it’s chance at live when there was a critical mass of players. It will continue to stagnate without a prayer in hell of recovering. Think AoC, War Hammer, SWTOR as examples of lost opportunities when they had a critical mass of players.

As other brought up with the lack of resources, the burn to players is that GW2 PvP is a sad shadow compared to it’s predecessor.

And that’s because gw2 pvp is a sad shadow of his predecessor…casual friendly yeah, a competitive pvp can’t be casual friendly by definition…cause casual friendly sounds much more like “retrded”

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Posted by: Dried Donkey.8504

Dried Donkey.8504

so basically you’re saying gw2 pvp is for kitten because its casual friendly?

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Posted by: Paradoxine.8192

Paradoxine.8192

so basically you’re saying gw2 pvp is for kitten because its casual friendly?

Yes, that’s exactly what we’re saying.

/s

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Posted by: D I V A.6018

D I V A.6018

and yet, another QQ thread.

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

so basically you’re saying gw2 pvp is for kitten because its casual friendly?

Precisely.

If you get into gw1 pvp for the first time you’re just going to be facerolled even before realizing what happened no matter which class\build you play, new/casual players are simply dead meat in every single possible situation…casual players in gw1 sometimes didn’t even manage to kill npcs in the first HA map even BEFORE being imploded by real players. Nough said…and it’s still the best pvp game around..

(edited by Archaon.6245)

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Posted by: Trevos.6473

Trevos.6473

We really need -1 button to send these treads into oblivion. Rabbits with great gaming experience teaching us gw2 pvp is fail, we must accapet this rofl…

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

We really need -1 button to send these treads into oblivion. Rabbits with great gaming experience teaching us gw2 pvp is fail, we must accapet this rofl…

I don’t really see many rabbits around..do you?

(edited by Archaon.6245)

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Posted by: Trevos.6473

Trevos.6473

But if you not enjoying it why are you wasting your time trolling on the forums and destroying the moral of all the happy players. I can accept it that this is not for everyone, but you knew what you buying … Class balance is not perfect, matchmaking is the same but it’s far from fail and anet is polishing it slowly but surely.

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Posted by: garethh.3518

garethh.3518

We really need -1 button to send these treads into oblivion.

If it takes the current dev team with it, I’d be happy to oblige.
(a bit cruel, I know, but its not every year that your hopes and dreams of a game turn out to be crushed, leaving you with nothing but real life to cope…)

but you knew what you buying …

The game was the furthest thing from what was advertised.

They said the thief was supposed to be a mobile harrying support class… pointedly not called an assassin because it was not going to be one.

They flaming said the game was supposed to be nontwitch so latency friendly!!!
This is probably one of the worst games to have a notable ping in.

(edited by garethh.3518)

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

Trolling? Asking for something similar to guild wars 1 in guild wars 2 is considered trolling now? Asking for a system like the one in the game many of us (Including me) used to play for 7 years is considered trolling? Sorry if i want a game called guild wars 2 to be at least on the same level of guild wars 1 …for now the only thing they have in common is just the name of the game..

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Posted by: Farry.8259

Farry.8259

Just think by yourself: Is it possible to make a Top 5 Plays of the Week series of GW2?
Answer: No
Becuase the combat is just a chaos, unresponsive, unballanced.

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Posted by: Paradoxine.8192

Paradoxine.8192

Just think by yourself: Is it possible to make a Top 5 Plays of the Week series of GW2?
Answer: No
Becuase the combat is just a chaos, unresponsive, unballanced.

I honestly wish I could just go back to the glory days of GW1, with my old guild and play some GvG. HA was a more annoying affair, what with the amount of faffing around trying to get a team, but still.

In this game, the team with the best 1v1 builds win, simple as. There is no room for tactics or clever strategies, mainly because the ‘teams’ have laughable sustain with no backline and no support. Even a scrub r1 can destroy a team if he gets lucky, whereas in GW1 you could literally have a monk and a war afk on a good team and still stomp pugs.

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Posted by: Sovta.4719

Sovta.4719

  1. A friend of mine (who is one of the? few) played like 3000 hours PvP (im not even joking). And now what? I cant even inspect him to see what he was achieved.
  2. GW2’s pvp has no progression at all… you play 1 match and your friend plays 1000 matches. What is the difference now between you and your friend? He has now some other animal rank.. Woah great! And you cant even inspect him to see his progression… if there was any…
  3. Oh and really REMOVE THE DOWNSTATE FROM sPVP! This has to happen for sure!

Go back to WoW, why did you bother to install GW2 at first place??? This skill based game, there is no pay to win (you dont need to pay at all you dont need money and you dont need to grind gear). Ppl here play for fun, we love PvP we dont play just for gear.

I stopped playing GW2 becuase of the lack of these things. People who are still playing GW2 come from GW1, they have never experienced a good and polished e-sports game. I dont want to insult anyone, I think its true.

And this is joke for sure?? GW1 and GW2 players never experienced a good and polished e-sports game, but you (a wow player) gona teach us about competitive e-sports…..

ROFL

Where did he said he played wow? Fanboys see wow everywhere. And compare LoL (more then descent e-sport) to this system (hotjoin=noob/points farming, no need to win cause you don’t get almost anything from it, tournaments=hahahahahahaha, solo join has million issues and serious pvp teams already left game) and cry.

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Posted by: Paradoxine.8192

Paradoxine.8192

  1. A friend of mine (who is one of the? few) played like 3000 hours PvP (im not even joking). And now what? I cant even inspect him to see what he was achieved.
  2. GW2’s pvp has no progression at all… you play 1 match and your friend plays 1000 matches. What is the difference now between you and your friend? He has now some other animal rank.. Woah great! And you cant even inspect him to see his progression… if there was any…
  3. Oh and really REMOVE THE DOWNSTATE FROM sPVP! This has to happen for sure!

Go back to WoW, why did you bother to install GW2 at first place??? This skill based game, there is no pay to win (you dont need to pay at all you dont need money and you dont need to grind gear). Ppl here play for fun, we love PvP we dont play just for gear.

I stopped playing GW2 becuase of the lack of these things. People who are still playing GW2 come from GW1, they have never experienced a good and polished e-sports game. I dont want to insult anyone, I think its true.

And this is joke for sure?? GW1 and GW2 players never experienced a good and polished e-sports game, but you (a wow player) gona teach us about competitive e-sports…..

ROFL

Where did he said he played wow? Fanboys see wow everywhere. And compare LoL (more then descent e-sport) to this system (hotjoin=noob/points farming, no need to win cause you don’t get almost anything from it, tournaments=hahahahahahaha, solo join has million issues and serious pvp teams already left game) and cry.

I’m not alone in that I don’t give two kittens about whether ‘serious pvp teams’ have left. The top guilds of GW1 would completely stomp any team that has played this game, period. If they fixed all the issues with PvP tomorrow, then I guarantee you the PvP scene would be absolutely massive by years end.

Problem is they won’t fix the problems, not only because they don’t know what they are, but because the developers themselves don’t care enough.

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Posted by: Sovta.4719

Sovta.4719

  1. A friend of mine (who is one of the? few) played like 3000 hours PvP (im not even joking). And now what? I cant even inspect him to see what he was achieved.
  2. GW2’s pvp has no progression at all… you play 1 match and your friend plays 1000 matches. What is the difference now between you and your friend? He has now some other animal rank.. Woah great! And you cant even inspect him to see his progression… if there was any…
  3. Oh and really REMOVE THE DOWNSTATE FROM sPVP! This has to happen for sure!

Go back to WoW, why did you bother to install GW2 at first place??? This skill based game, there is no pay to win (you dont need to pay at all you dont need money and you dont need to grind gear). Ppl here play for fun, we love PvP we dont play just for gear.

I stopped playing GW2 becuase of the lack of these things. People who are still playing GW2 come from GW1, they have never experienced a good and polished e-sports game. I dont want to insult anyone, I think its true.

And this is joke for sure?? GW1 and GW2 players never experienced a good and polished e-sports game, but you (a wow player) gona teach us about competitive e-sports…..

ROFL

Where did he said he played wow? Fanboys see wow everywhere. And compare LoL (more then descent e-sport) to this system (hotjoin=noob/points farming, no need to win cause you don’t get almost anything from it, tournaments=hahahahahahaha, solo join has million issues and serious pvp teams already left game) and cry.

I’m not alone in that I don’t give two kittens about whether ‘serious pvp teams’ have left. The top guilds of GW1 would completely stomp any team that has played this game, period. If they fixed all the issues with PvP tomorrow, then I guarantee you the PvP scene would be absolutely massive by years end.

Problem is they won’t fix the problems, not only because they don’t know what they are, but because the developers themselves don’t care enough.

I agree, unless serious pvpers start buying pink quauauqauuqauquns with real money, then they will care.

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

  1. A friend of mine (who is one of the? few) played like 3000 hours PvP (im not even joking). And now what? I cant even inspect him to see what he was achieved.
  2. GW2’s pvp has no progression at all… you play 1 match and your friend plays 1000 matches. What is the difference now between you and your friend? He has now some other animal rank.. Woah great! And you cant even inspect him to see his progression… if there was any…
  3. Oh and really REMOVE THE DOWNSTATE FROM sPVP! This has to happen for sure!

Go back to WoW, why did you bother to install GW2 at first place??? This skill based game, there is no pay to win (you dont need to pay at all you dont need money and you dont need to grind gear). Ppl here play for fun, we love PvP we dont play just for gear.

I stopped playing GW2 becuase of the lack of these things. People who are still playing GW2 come from GW1, they have never experienced a good and polished e-sports game. I dont want to insult anyone, I think its true.

And this is joke for sure?? GW1 and GW2 players never experienced a good and polished e-sports game, but you (a wow player) gona teach us about competitive e-sports…..

ROFL

Where did he said he played wow? Fanboys see wow everywhere. And compare LoL (more then descent e-sport) to this system (hotjoin=noob/points farming, no need to win cause you don’t get almost anything from it, tournaments=hahahahahahaha, solo join has million issues and serious pvp teams already left game) and cry.

I’m not alone in that I don’t give two kittens about whether ‘serious pvp teams’ have left. The top guilds of GW1 would completely stomp any team that has played this game, period. If they fixed all the issues with PvP tomorrow, then I guarantee you the PvP scene would be absolutely massive by years end.

Problem is they won’t fix the problems, not only because they don’t know what they are, but because the developers themselves don’t care enough.

Too bad that The Last Pride’s guys, just as an example, already said they’re not coming back to gw2 until pvp reaches a decent level of competition…those ppl would eat every single top team around without even playing seriously…as they said gw2 it’s not competitive enough to be a challenge for ppl like them…and everyone from gw1 who saw those guys playing knows that it’s far from being an arrogant statement..it’s the simple truth..

5) Some WM guys i know stopped gw2 for same reason as It’s not competitive as they wanted to. Same for iQ,iB,EW,rawr,LuM,… said to the top.

(edited by Archaon.6245)

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Posted by: Mujen.5287

Mujen.5287

My friend and I have fun. So i’m happy.

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Posted by: scerevisiae.1972

scerevisiae.1972

The spvp current state is simple..they removed healing classes and replaced them by self heals and revivals of fallen allies.

The self heals resulted in OP classes that are just impossible to beat with other classes given the same skill level on either side. It also resulted in lack of team synergy and boring bunker or stealth fights. Don’t believe me? Go into the dueling arenas and see players who know how to face roll through the abilities play..boring as hell.

Even the top teams you don’t hear them focusing on a target by doing cc combos or chains or purposely burning their counter boons and removing them. All you hear is :hes going down hes going down! Im down im down! revive me!

They Fallen state simply rewards bad players and casuals. Any player here who played his class has run into the situation where he downs one or two out of 3 players and still ends up losing because of the downed state.

The problem is, even after they remove the downed state it won’t help because some builds and classes will go down insanely fast and this will result in people playing bunker/tanky builds and resulting in even more fighting. The downed state was introduced to compensate for lack of healers and removing it at this state of the game will only force people to go down the tankier even more boring path.

I think removing healers was an original idea which was:

Great for PVE since you are not at the mercy of a healer’s whim or gotta wait for one (anyone remembers wow dungeons/raids?)

And which overall was a bad idea resulting in:

-In people who loved playing the healer class avoid the game
Team based competitive pvpers avoid/leave the game since arenas are just 1v1 or 1v2 in competitive tourneys given the node capturing mode. Even if deathmatch is introduced eventually, you will feel a lack of synergy between group member as everyone is doing his own thing.
boring pvp
-OP classes
-Rewarding bad players via downed state
-Turning a potentially great pvp experience in wvw like DAOC into a pve zerg fest instead and alienating the open world pvp/DAOC crowd.

I just hope future games learn to avoid these mistakes.

I also agree the problems with GW2 PVP are systemic, and not fixable with minuscule balance patches once per month. There have been massive threads since beta on how detrimental downed state is to the whole PVP experience, and yet they didn’t even bother to include an option to turn it off in custom arenas. Then there was the arrogant assertion that everything was balanced despite again, massive threads complaining about instagibbing and bunkering. And now instead of measured tweaks every month we have huge sledgehammer nerfs/buffs.

In the end the spectacular failure of GW2 sPVP derives from IMO the unwillingness of the dev team to listen to players. About everything. The removal of a resource system, the inclusion of downed state, emphasis on DPS over all were all things that were heavily criticised in betas and in previous design disclosures, but none of these concerns were ever taken on board.

downed state is bad for PVP

(edited by scerevisiae.1972)

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Posted by: Paradoxine.8192

Paradoxine.8192

The spvp current state is simple..they removed healing classes and replaced them by self heals and revivals of fallen allies.

The self heals resulted in OP classes that are just impossible to beat with other classes given the same skill level on either side. It also resulted in lack of team synergy and boring bunker or stealth fights. Don’t believe me? Go into the dueling arenas and see players who know how to face roll through the abilities play..boring as hell.

Even the top teams you don’t hear them focusing on a target by doing cc combos or chains or purposely burning their counter boons and removing them. All you hear is :hes going down hes going down! Im down im down! revive me!

They Fallen state simply rewards bad players and casuals. Any player here who played his class has run into the situation where he downs one or two out of 3 players and still ends up losing because of the downed state.

The problem is, even after they remove the downed state it won’t help because some builds and classes will go down insanely fast and this will result in people playing bunker/tanky builds and resulting in even more fighting. The downed state was introduced to compensate for lack of healers and removing it at this state of the game will only force people to go down the tankier even more boring path.

I think removing healers was an original idea which was:

Great for PVE since you are not at the mercy of a healer’s whim or gotta wait for one (anyone remembers wow dungeons/raids?)

And which overall was a bad idea resulting in:

-In people who loved playing the healer class avoid the game
Team based competitive pvpers avoid/leave the game since arenas are just 1v1 or 1v2 in competitive tourneys given the node capturing mode. Even if deathmatch is introduced eventually, you will feel a lack of synergy between group member as everyone is doing his own thing.
boring pvp
-OP classes
-Rewarding bad players via downed state
-Turning a potentially great pvp experience in wvw like DAOC into a pve zerg fest instead and alienating the open world pvp/DAOC crowd.

I just hope future games learn to avoid these mistakes.

I also agree the problems with GW2 PVP are systemic, and not fixable with minuscule balance patches once per month. There have been massive threads since beta on how detrimental downed state is to the whole PVP experience, and yet they didn’t even bother to include an option to turn it off in custom arenas. Then there was the arrogant assertion that everything was balanced despite again, massive threads complaining about instagibbing and bunkering. And now instead of measured tweaks every month we have huge sledgehammer nerfs/buffs.

In the end the spectacular failure of GW2 sPVP derives from IMO the unwillingness of the dev team to listen to players. About everything. The removal of a resource system, the inclusion of downed state, emphasis on DPS over all were all things that were heavily criticised in betas and in previous design disclosures, but none of these concerns were ever taken on board.

Arrogance, stubbornness, no pressure to change. I’ve said it before, but the developers get paid and that’s it.

They don’t care because there is likely no one telling them “hey maybe we should open a discussion with the player base about this, after all, they do play the game we’re making”.

It’s quite one thing to have a situation where the developers know the game better than the players do and can see everything in clarity while the minds of the players are clouded. It’s quite another to have a situation where the developers won’t listen to the players in the first place to actually get some opposing viewpoints.

They’re probably thinking “don’t like it don’t play” reading this thread right now, while laughing uncontrollably. To be fair, I have no evidence to support that they actually visit this forum at all.

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Posted by: RoRo.8270

RoRo.8270

1 patch a month 90% of the time it is a pve patch. Anet obviously lied when they stated they wanted to improve upon what players liked best about gw1. Then they top it off by advertising gw2 as a e-sport to get me suckered in. I waited and waited and nothing has changed i’m done with this game the devs dont care so why should i?

(edited by RoRo.8270)

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Posted by: Mammoth.1975

Mammoth.1975

Anybody who takes someone seriously after they disparage gw1 pvp is embarrassing themselves. When you align yourself with the clueless guy, you look clueless. I’ve played about a gazillion mmos just for the pvp, and gw1 is one of the best 3.

GW1 had already run a $100,000 tourney almost a year before WoW even had arenas btw.

All I get from most posts on the spvp forum is ’I’m pretty bad at gw2’.

If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.

(edited by Mammoth.1975)

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Posted by: Angelus.1042

Angelus.1042

What i don’t get is….

They have had years of experience seeing what made GW1 PVP so INCREDIBLE….

Yet GW2 comes around and PVP is an absolute let down joke.

What happened?

….and dont tell me the games still new, they had years of development not counting allllllll the years of developing and running GW1 PVP to take from that update and incorporate the knowledge and experience it into GW2.

Its like they took everything that worked and all their knowledge and experience and just threw it in the dumpster for GW2.

GW2 PVP will never become an esport…and if it does it will be very very low at the bottom most likely on whats worth watching on a website like twitch.tv or something…it will be one of those things you watch when there is absolutely nothing else on to watch…..like watching extreme midget wrestling on tv at 3am in the morning on a weeknight.

They have a lot of work to do to fix it…I hope they do by the first xpac…if not then Im done…I know that me saying that don’t mean much but I was a loyal fan since beta GW1…

(edited by Angelus.1042)

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Posted by: Psychogene.6780

Psychogene.6780

Kind of like a sequel to a movie franchise where the first movie was incredible and so much expectation and anticipation is had, or when a music artist releases a much awaited sophomore album after a successful debut, I guess people were expecting great things with pvp in Guild wars 2.

Oh well, maybe when a trilogy is made they can make up for it in the third installment. Its not horrible pvp by any standards tho, but at the same time GW2 pvp just feels … so unfinished.

This is just my personal opinion btw, I never played GW1 but I have played other mmo pvp’s and used to play fighting games (street fighter, tekken) on a competitive level for a long time and I don’t know if its GW2’s combat system, but it seems to lacks depth. It almost feels to me they could have put guild wars 2 in an arcade cabinet back during arcade days and it would have worked.

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Posted by: Baldric.6781

Baldric.6781

What happened ? An easy one. They tried new innovative stuff everywhere.
So, mmo’s use a lot of instances because it’s easy to balance a fixed number of players. Arena.net tries to be cool and puts a lot into open world, obvious result, some stuff is extremely easy and some is imposible, because u don’t have enough players at the moment.
Mmo’s use trinity because it makes sense (guy takes damage, guy heals the others, guy deals damage, pretty straightforward and simple) and u can balance around that. Arena.net tries to be cool and only allows for a guy deals damage, with some a guy heal other guys, obvious result, all becomes a dps festival (ask pve guys about the warrior). Funny enough they allow some tankyness but only in pvp, it seems to be not allowed in pve.
When u die in a mmo u die, arena.net wanted to be cool, so when u die u don’t really die, and worse, any player can revive you pretty fast, obvious result, imbalances appear because of the downed state abilities and 2 vs 1 became much harder for the one.
Mmo’s use stealth, but they only allow it for certain characters and moments, because they understand that fighting against air is not really engaging. Arena.net tries to be cool, so they allow stealth spam, obvious result, duels against thiefs become air battles, where u fight against air most of the time, and worst, win, sometimes u win and u don’t even now. And thiefs become stealth dependent.
Mmo’s use some kind of resource for skills, mana, energy, whatever, arena.net tries to be cool and uses 90% CD’s, obvious result, battles become a CD battle where if u used the CD already u lose.
Mmo’s use armor and vitality to know the tankyness of a character, so u have huge dude with freaking steel plate everywhere, u know that dude can survive a lot (it makes sense). Arena.net tries to be cool, and give minor significance to armor and vitality (dps does 8 ks of damage really fast and armor doesn’t defend against condis) and give a lot more importance to boons and condi removal, obvious result, u have a robe dude with the lowest health-pool of the game being one of the best tanks (thank god not the best) and the dude with the best hp and armor becomes a squishy glass canon that can’t survive any decent focus. So in gw2, if u want to be a tanky dude hard to kill and dealing some damage, u should create a wa… mage guy!! nice.

It seems when they where designing the game, they said, u know what will be cool ? Let’s put a lot of new stuff everywhere (not tested stuff of course), so say everything cool u can think.
When u do that, some ideas will be not bad, a lot will be bad and some will produce comic results (like the tank-mage). As a test MMO gw2 is good, as a strong MMO with good foundation, gw2 is terrible.

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Posted by: garethh.3518

garethh.3518

It seems when they where designing the game, they said, u know what will be cool ? Let’s put a lot of new stuff everywhere (not tested stuff of course), so say everything cool u can think.
When u do that, some ideas will be not bad, a lot will be bad and some will produce comic results (like the tank-mage). As a test MMO gw2 is good, as a strong MMO with good foundation, gw2 is terrible.

Pretty much, I think the devs thought they were better than they were, so each took on the MMO workload of a dozen people.
Of course that’s the only way I can rationalize their attempt at innovating next to everything about the MMO, yet doing it all in a less than mediocre-quality fashion and taking far over a reasonable timescale… for even the mildest changes.

(edited by garethh.3518)

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Posted by: Archaon.6245

Archaon.6245

Reminds me Fast and Furious movies…deeper and deeper into the ground, gw3 is going to be something like metin2…

(edited by Archaon.6245)

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Posted by: RochelleFreeman.5603

RochelleFreeman.5603

I agree that the combat system sucks in this game. But I still play it cause its free.

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Posted by: Paradoxine.8192

Paradoxine.8192

What happened ? An easy one. They tried new innovative stuff everywhere.
So, mmo’s use a lot of instances because it’s easy to balance a fixed number of players. Arena.net tries to be cool and puts a lot into open world, obvious result, some stuff is extremely easy and some is imposible, because u don’t have enough players at the moment.
Mmo’s use trinity because it makes sense (guy takes damage, guy heals the others, guy deals damage, pretty straightforward and simple) and u can balance around that. Arena.net tries to be cool and only allows for a guy deals damage, with some a guy heal other guys, obvious result, all becomes a dps festival (ask pve guys about the warrior). Funny enough they allow some tankyness but only in pvp, it seems to be not allowed in pve.
When u die in a mmo u die, arena.net wanted to be cool, so when u die u don’t really die, and worse, any player can revive you pretty fast, obvious result, imbalances appear because of the downed state abilities and 2 vs 1 became much harder for the one.
Mmo’s use stealth, but they only allow it for certain characters and moments, because they understand that fighting against air is not really engaging. Arena.net tries to be cool, so they allow stealth spam, obvious result, duels against thiefs become air battles, where u fight against air most of the time, and worst, win, sometimes u win and u don’t even now. And thiefs become stealth dependent.
Mmo’s use some kind of resource for skills, mana, energy, whatever, arena.net tries to be cool and uses 90% CD’s, obvious result, battles become a CD battle where if u used the CD already u lose.
Mmo’s use armor and vitality to know the tankyness of a character, so u have huge dude with freaking steel plate everywhere, u know that dude can survive a lot (it makes sense). Arena.net tries to be cool, and give minor significance to armor and vitality (dps does 8 ks of damage really fast and armor doesn’t defend against condis) and give a lot more importance to boons and condi removal, obvious result, u have a robe dude with the lowest health-pool of the game being one of the best tanks (thank god not the best) and the dude with the best hp and armor becomes a squishy glass canon that can’t survive any decent focus. So in gw2, if u want to be a tanky dude hard to kill and dealing some damage, u should create a wa… mage guy!! nice.

It seems when they where designing the game, they said, u know what will be cool ? Let’s put a lot of new stuff everywhere (not tested stuff of course), so say everything cool u can think.
When u do that, some ideas will be not bad, a lot will be bad and some will produce comic results (like the tank-mage). As a test MMO gw2 is good, as a strong MMO with good foundation, gw2 is terrible.

Sigh, all true.

GW2 is literally a text book example of how to alienate your most loyal players, remove all the mechanics people loved, make every part of the game (including ‘competitive play’) casual and just cash in.

Problems (Tier 1)

Energy management? loltoohard
Ally targeted skills? loltoohard
Targeted rez skills? loltoohard

Problems (Tier 2)

Stealth spam
AoE spam
Doge spam
Teleport spam
Evade spam
Traits are all over the place, ANET themselves don’t seem to know what role they want traits to serve

Problems (Tier 3)

support is practically useless, no way to focus on helping individual players, only AoE.

conditions are both applied and removed too easily. Last for a few seconds on average instead of 20s+.

boons are far, far too generic

D/D ele and BM ranger are some of the tankiest builds in the game. They said you shouldn’t be able to tank and yet these builds do it to a ridiculous extent.

Communication(None)

Honestly It blows my mind when I consider that they could still fix this, but don’t even feel like they want to open a dialogue. I think the only explanation is they are utterly incompetent or they are making GW2 for themselves only.

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Posted by: RochelleFreeman.5603

RochelleFreeman.5603

Communication(None)

Honestly It blows my mind when I consider that they could still fix this, but don’t even feel like they want to open a dialogue. I think the only explanation is they are utterly incompetent or they are making GW2 for themselves only.

I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but in spvp does anyone else notice the fact that no one talks at all! It’s mindless, I don’t get it this is the only game I have ever played where there is no communication among players in pvp. The community just doesn’t want to talk. Mostly because this game has attracted a rather young player base.

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Posted by: KarlaGrey.5903

KarlaGrey.5903

The saddest thing about this is that GW1 was a whole lot more innovative than GW2, mainly because of features like simplistic skill design with high skill/reward ratio (e.g. gale, bulls strike, black out, d shot), active protection spells along with the shutdown role given to classes like ranger and mesmer. The concept of frontline-midline-backline, coupled with shutdown, protection and midline support was what was genuinely new on the mmo pvp scene (and what makes it really hard for me to stomach any other mmo’s pvp), and they threw it all away. Unfathomable.

RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363

(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)

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Posted by: Ascii.9726

Ascii.9726

The “matchmaking” system NEEDS to be fixed, its just a joke for solo queue tournaments.

Having 2 tournament wins as a +1AP Daily requires me (as one of the top ranking NA-AP players) to win 2 every day (and this needs to be changed to 2 games played) and because of the terrible matchmaking systems this can sometimes take forever.

The past 3 games I’ve been fighting rank 55+ players whilst having 10-20’s on my team.

Rank 580+ Necromancer WvW Stream
Commander Ascii :: Tempest Wolves [TW] :: Sanctum of Rall :: Best Necromancer NA

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Posted by: MaXi.3642

MaXi.3642

It took 6 months to add some leaderboards. There is no matchmaking

stopped reading here

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Posted by: Amityel.5324

Amityel.5324

as title says its one BIG failure

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Posted by: Control Core.1079

Control Core.1079

Look at any other game. Like CoD

LOL , what a kitten you are kitten off please!

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Posted by: Mindtrick.5190

Mindtrick.5190

E-sports are played at LAN tournaments. Online play is nothing but practice.

The clip bellow is highlights from one team from their tourney LAN win.

Got Ninja?
https://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714
<3 and Hugs no Hate I Just Point Out Fail.

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Posted by: Xom.9264

Xom.9264

Well they really need to remove skill queue, and they need to do it hotpatch fix. Its ruining combat.

Xomox ~Human Necro/Engineer ET

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Posted by: deathxform.2935

deathxform.2935

By comparisons you use (cod, bf, wow) I can say that you probably have never played a good competitive game. Is gw2 lacking – yes it is in some aspects, but the combat system is still ahead ofany other mmorpg currently and in near future.

then i have to say to you that me and the majority of folks that i know think this game lacks on combat so hard that many didnt even reached max level cuz of combat

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Posted by: Raptured.9307

Raptured.9307

Yeah, I gave up on the pvp aspect of this game for a while now. BF3 ftw

Rank 37 spvp, dungeon master
[HL] Deadly Protection @ Sanctum of Culling

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Posted by: Jackie.1829

Jackie.1829

The saddest thing about this is that GW1 was a whole lot more innovative than GW2, mainly because of features like simplistic skill design with high skill/reward ratio (e.g. gale, bulls strike, black out, d shot), active protection spells along with the shutdown role given to classes like ranger and mesmer. The concept of frontline-midline-backline, coupled with shutdown, protection and midline support was what was genuinely new on the mmo pvp scene (and what makes it really hard for me to stomach any other mmo’s pvp), and they threw it all away. Unfathomable.

<3

This. I came to GW2 with a significant number of GW1 players and I am more or less one of the only ones remaining. Most of my time is invested into wvw for the sake of having “lulz” because its a good pass time to beat on bad players.

Though I cannot for the life of me understand how they managed to make the skill cap on GW2 so much lower than in GW1.

And ignoring just skill cap. Why dont we have a guild ladder? Why dont we have daily/weekly/monthly tournaments? Even the current spectator mode is garbage, I can only watch things in real time? What if I want to watch an important match in 2 hours? Owait.. I can’t. But I could in GW1. Hmmm……

What went wrong?

[VoTF] www.votf-online.net
GW1 Rank 1 – 2 Gold Capes – [sC] [sup]

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Posted by: Reslinal.2359

Reslinal.2359

Hmm..you guys just got beat quite convincingly in the cash tournament, seems there’s more room for improvement than you indicated in your post:)

Blackgate Engineer

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Posted by: XII.9401

XII.9401

I’ve seen this pattern many times..WoW, AOC, Warhammer and SWTOR.

The devs ignore class balance and this results in two groups of players:

One that is not playing the op class which are forced to either play an op one with a specific build and thus make it a mirror match which is boring or quit the game.

The 2nd group is the OP class group and they like to feel they are good players so they keep playing the game till they end up fighting people who rolled OP classes or start playing the other original op class players. Which becomes boring or frustrating because they realize that the class was what carried them. They only contribute to the problem by deluding themselves that everything is ok -or they don’t care- till the next game pops and they will leave the game for the creators.

Eventually, people leave the game. ESO is on the horizon and I’m sure it has a bigger fan base and thus players will flock to it. Players only hang around the forums here in hopes of things getting better or to vent their frustration and thus the forums get uglier by the day.

The dev team has made mistakes way too huge to correct -and are slow and sometimes inept in correcting the minor ones, anyway..remember the orbs from wvw..yea..they took them out for the stat bonuses and not the hax..sure..-. Since there is no monitoring for the dev work or the feedback from the players base, things will not change.

They don’t have enough man power so they are focusing on the guaranteed customer base which is the PVE one which is easier to please. That is why your spvp is boring and being ignored.

Class balance makes the majority happy..class imbalance eventually alienates the majority.

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Posted by: Paradoxine.8192

Paradoxine.8192

It’ll be interesting to see what changes (if any) we get from the upcoming patch. I’m not expecting much but we shall see.