Guild Wars 2

What’s up everybody it’s me Godofallu and I am going to be going over the state of the game based around each profession. I will give my opinion on where each profession sits in the meta at the moment and what kind of builds/roles each profession can fulfill.

Why should you listen to me? Well noone is going to force you to. Right now i’m an admin of the esports guild and frequently coach newer players in the guild and run pickup games. I play on actively procrastinating which is top 5 on NA mistleague at the moment (not as cool as it sounds) and I enjoy dueling and beating top players/known pros at their own professions. Not that I always win or anything but I have plenty of wins.

== Mesmer == Right now I feel like mesmer only has 1 true viable build in TPvP which is the meta 20/20/0/0/30 shatter build. While the build is top tier and certainly viable the main issues it has are that it doesn’t have any condition removal, and it’s basically locked into taking MOA, Portal, and Illusion of Life. Which brings me into the main problem mesmers have in TPvP; lack of variety.

Mesmers need to have their other utility skills increased to the point where they might actually be able to compete with portal and illusion of life. I don’t think portal or illusion can/should be nerfed any harder even though they are game changing skills simply because those 2 skills are almost the only real thing drawing people to mesmer at the moment. In addition a second or even third mesmer build which is TPvP viable needs to be created. To do this the scepter and staff’s auto attack would need to be reworked in order to make condition damage builds a real and viable thing.

== Guardian == Guardians in tPvP are basically entirely locked into a bunker role, usually based around team support at midpoint. The reason they can only do this role is because their DPS roles are not mobile enough to become roamers, and their damage although strong is very telegraphed. In order to push guardian DPS builds into the meta the sword 3 skill would have to be changed, and the GS pull -> spin technique would have to be changed + they would have to be given some sort of swiftness.

As to their ability to bunker they provide stability which almost no other bunkers can do. This is powerful because it allows the tankiest member on the team to do the stomping + it prevents the bunker from getting cc chained or pushed off point. Until other bunkers get stability they won’t be viable.

The other thing guardian bunkers bring that other professions can’t match is retaliation. Retaliation can singlehandedly wreck certain DPS builds and can actually lead to a very large damage output which makes a guardian bunker capable of applying DPS pressure while running a pure defense build. In my opinion retaliation needs an internal cooldown OR to scale based around damage done on an attack. As it stands now trap rangers and grenade users are being pushed out of midfights due to the overwhelming effects retaliation has on those skills in comparison to the negligible effects it has on marks or shatter combos.

== Necromancer == Right now necromancers provide great AOE damage through marks, wells, epidemic, and to a lesser extent DS 4+5. This puts them in an excellent position for teamfights at midpoint. While it’s true that necromancers are relatively squishy (especially when running 30/30/10) we must remember that a necromancer is only weak to physical builds and not both physical and condition damage builds. This gives them a natural advantage that other glass DPS professions don’t have. In addition a physical DPS build will almost always run Berserkers amulet which provides almost no defense while condition damage builds are able to take Rabid or Shamans amulet which both provide a fairly balanced amount of damage/survivability.

As it stands now necromancers won’t be able to take on a roaming DPS build due to the lack of swiftness + the lack of strong single target utility skills. If warhorn got a cooldown reduction or Signet of the locust got a new active effect I could see roamers actually becoming viable. Especially a signet based roamer in the middle of a condition based meta.

== Ranger == As it stands now the ranger is basically stuck as a homepoint defender. This is due to the strong defensive traitlines and utter lack of swiftness and AOE.

In order for a ranger to become more popular at midfight retaliation would need to be changed (internal cooldown or % of damage done) so that trap rangers have a chance to shine. Spirit ranger builds would also have to become a lot more fun to run and be less orientated on passive skills. Making a secondary ability of a spirit give a stunbreak + include more direct play options on spirits could make this a reality.

In order for rangers to become roamers the power weapon sets (longbow and Greatsword) would have to be tweaked so that warhorn becomes viable. Increasing the DPS of the auto attack on greatsword and making the second skill based around the physical damage and not bleeds would be a great start. Longbow just needs rapid fire to do more damage either through increasing the damage and assuming half will be dodged or increasing the speed so a player won’t always be able to avoid half of it. Then barrage needs a damage increase and frankly it can loose the cripple.

== Elementalist == Elementalist is in a good spot for roaming and teamfights. The only place you can’t really run an elementalist is as a dedicated homepoint player. One idea would be to change signets so that signet of fire activates faster and signet of earth does decent bleed damage. This could open up the possibility of a shamans amulet homepoint elementalist.

As far as teamfight goes increasing the radious of boons given through attunment swapping by a tiny bit would be the only real thing that I would even consider.

== Warrior == The warrior has the damage and mobility to be a good roamer but it frankly doesn’t have the condition removal and healing to sustain itself to an acceptable degree. I like the clensing ire trait but taking away strong adept traits has moved the warrior ever sideways.

I would change warrior by adding a new trait that would make banners remove a condition on everyone in radius every 5-10 seconds. I would buff shake it off to remove 2 conditions, and I would change For Great Justice to have a longer cooldown but increase the amount of might it gives and add retaliation to the skill.

The Warrior trait spiked armor I would rework to give retaliation to all teammates in the area but I would increase it’s internal cooldown to 20 seconds.

With access to retaliation and good AOE condi removal the warrior would possibly have the defensive support to warrant inclusion in a teamfight.

All base heals on the warrior should scale slightly stronger with healing power as well.

== Thief == I’m not going to talk about thief simply because I haven’t played with them enough post patch to comment. My team never ran a thief and most teams that have thief’s are starting to move away from the class in favor of the double condition midline.

== Engineer == The engineer post patch is in a fairly confused position. It used to be one of the best professions for team fights at mid and with perma swiftness available from speedy kits and the ability to win 1v1’s against any class assuming tight play it was also one of the best roamers.

Post patch the engineer is in a different place altogether. It just doesn’t have the damage that a necromancer has even when running HGH which is a build that goes all in on might and has no CC and no real defense. Leaving it outclassed as far as AOE and damage goes at midfight. When it comes to splitting and roaming the engineer is in a worse position than ever before due to a lot of small changes drastically effecting matchups. Before an elementalist would literally melt to confusion. The 2 stacks from pistol 3 carried that matchup but now that evasive arcana and other skills don’t trigger multiple times the fight is much tougher. Not having access to a stunbreak makes gust→burning speed +fire grab a real and dangerous threat. Thief matchups were already mixed to bad but with the loss of the 3 second stun on shield 5 the matchup went south quickly. An engineer can no longer use those 3 seconds to get some distance and land chill grenades which makes stabilizing after they teleport to you much more difficult. Prepare to be instant gibbed since many engineers don’t have any stunbreakers for basilisk venom. In fact with no stunbreaker frenzy 100blades warriors and other gimmick builds can now beat engineers occasionally.

What would I change in order to make engineers a viable choice for roaming and teamfights once again? Well the first major problem is the lack of a stunbreak. Sorry but oil slick is a joke skill and should not have a stunbreak; in fact the entire skill should get a new name and new wording. The options are to either put the stunbreak onto rocket boots (which is almost good enough to be playable as is) or put it back onto elixer R. Now I will freely admit that elixer R is a skill that is so good that it’s basically an auto include for every engineer. The thing is that’s fine. Mesmers have portal which can carry a team just as easily and every mesmer runs it. Guardians have sanctuary which is basically run by every bunker and that skill makes revives easy, pushes people off for decaps, and generally is amazing. In short engineers have only 3 real possibilities for supporting their teammates. Healing turret (which takes away their own heal which is risky), elixer gun (which has very mediocre 1-4 skills), and elixer R (which is only half playable [the thrown f2 part]}. If you want engineers back at midfight make them do more damage or make elixer gun/elixer R not be mediocre.

As far as roaming goes I think engineers are in trouble. Frankly rifle is a bad and confused weapon set which sort of pushes engineers into pistol which then pushes engineers into condition damage builds. No condition class can win a 1v1 against a conditionmancer. Their heal + 2 condition transfers is just too much and engineers simply don’t have the access to condition removal to compete. This means the meta is flooded with bad matchups. I would start by tweaking acidic coating to add a condition removal and then follow up with backpack regenerator removing a condition every 20 seconds.

I would revert the shield 5 change and add a third stack of confusion on pistol 3. The only thing left to do on engineer would be to tweak elixer gun by making the third attack have a longer and wider cone pattern and give it 2 seconds of poison per hit as opposed to 1. All this would do is make curing conditions from teammates actually feasible and make its damage do almost as much as an auto attack. The second skill can get a decent damage increase as well.

With those changes I think engineer could have enough support at mid to makeup for the lower damage potential + with a stunbreaker they would have at least a little pit of survivability. No good player should ever play without a stunbreaker.

This is quite true. Good job +1

Great work!

I m thining of trying a new class for tPvP and this helped me a lot to get an idea of what i might like to play.

Good read! Only downside to your review is you leave out Engineer (but i don’t blame you since ANet does the same things at SoTGs)

I’d love to hear your thoughts regarding Engies

good job

what makes me rly sad today (because ranger is rly only holder atm)

when i try to hold a necro with my beastmaster just on 1vs1
it ends with im death in ~10seconds if he have his perfect fear combo
which happen nearly all the time Oo

i need rly luck to random dodge all this same animations and then i loose most time too, but not so fast :/

Excellent read. You really know your stuff. How come no engi/thief? :-P

Planning on marking your thread in my signature for future class vs class QQ heh.

Didn’t you hear? Engineers became extinct with the last patch. Posting about dinosaurs wouldn’t make much sense imo.

Walorx.5129:

Didn’t you hear? Engineers became extinct with the last patch. Posting about dinosaurs wouldn’t make much sense imo.

and apparently Bunker Ele’s side point is aweful. Go figure…

Very good synopsis. I’ve played guardian, warrior, and a little bit of mesmer, and the strengths and weaknesses of each are spot-on. I also like the warrior suggestions that don’t make the profession ridiculously powerful.

== Other Miscellaneous things I would Fix/Change ==

Hitting a stunbreaker too early when knocked down puts the stunbreak on cooldown but doesn’t remove the stun/knockdown. This punishes players who have fast reaction times or have been looking for a certain knockdown animation. Please fix this asap.

Retaliation is overly brutal against certain attacks such as traps and grenades. There is no reason why a flame aura has a 1 second internal cooldown but retaliation a common boon doesn’t have any sort of balance. In general retaliation and confusion need to be tweaked so they don’t destroy certain professions and whiff on others.

The lord on Foefire should have more health or armor or a stronger bodyguard that heals and protects him. A lord shouldn’t be able to be solo’d by 1 person in a short amount of time.

Godofallu.2935:

Hitting a stunbreaker too early when knocked down puts the stunbreak on cooldown but doesn’t remove the stun/knockdown. This punishes players who have fast reaction times or have been looking for a certain knockdown animation. Please fix this asap.

This isn’t a bug, though I don’t like it. Using a stunbreak in a knockdown, knockback, stun, etc works fine and instantly breaks it. Using it during a launch (formerly blowout) skill does not work until after you stop moving. Launch causes you to bounce along the ground for a long distance, whereas knockback is more direct and shorter distance. It requires players to know the subtle difference and also which professions and which of their abilities have a launch.

Exedore.6320:

Godofallu.2935:

Hitting a stunbreaker too early when knocked down puts the stunbreak on cooldown but doesn’t remove the stun/knockdown. This punishes players who have fast reaction times or have been looking for a certain knockdown animation. Please fix this asap.

This isn’t a bug, though I don’t like it. Using a stunbreak in a knockdown, knockback, stun, etc works fine and instantly breaks it. Using it during a launch (formerly blowout) skill does not work until after you stop moving. Launch causes you to bounce along the ground for a long distance, whereas knockback is more direct and shorter distance. It requires players to know the subtle difference and also which professions and which of their abilities have a launch.

While it’s true that gust is a knockback and not a knockdown (tempest defense trait wtf?!) I still would consider this a bug. The entire point of stunbreaks is to counter CC. There is no real reason to make it work on some stuns/CC’s and not others.

It’s unfortunate that with so many classes and variety of builds, there are only a handful that are good enough for tPvP.

Is this a consequence of conquest mode? Would other builds be viable if there were different kinds of play?

Maybe they wasted their time coming up with too much variety, 90% of it being useless for PvP.

Laserbolt.6731:

It’s unfortunate that with so many classes and variety of builds, there are only a handful that are good enough for tPvP.

Is this a consequence of conquest mode? Would other builds be viable if there were different kinds of play?

Maybe they wasted thier time coming up with to much variety, 90% of in useless.

It’s definitely not a result of conquest. If anything, conquest allows for more options. Using the guardian example from the original post, it has the potential to do a lot more than bunker, but it has terrible map mobility which holds it back.

Variety itself isn’t bad, but when you’re developing something this big, lots of things change over time. Something that was good months ago may suck now because other things closely or loosely related changed. And in a crunch to release, you don’t have the time to re-visit everything.

Also, when you’re not sure exactly how PvP will play out, it’s hard to design for it. Using guardian as an example again, they can bunker well because of stability. Was the abundance of stability intended? Is it a good thing for the game? Depending on the answer, you would nerf guardians or give more self-stability to other professions. The only thing that’s certain is that every profession needs access to swiftness or movement boosts that don’t severely compromise their damage potential.

I’ve been away for a bit so I don’t know what to say about the engineer. Just a couple months ago, shield and elixir R were both rather uncommon choices so I’m surprised that they suddenly became so important. When I get a chance to play again I’ll be interested to see how things feel.

Honestly, it might be kind of nice for the engineer to be hipster again…HGH nades was a poor reflection of how fun engineers are, so maybe it’s finally fading out? Hopefully I’ll get some time to play soon and see if the good old rifle kit bunker is still viable.

good read, got kinda sad when the thief was the only class without an in-depth analysis lol.

Laserbolt.6731:

It’s unfortunate that with so many classes and variety of builds, there are only a handful that are good enough for tPvP.

Is this a consequence of conquest mode? Would other builds be viable if there were different kinds of play?

Maybe they wasted their time coming up with too much variety, 90% of it being useless for PvP.

Well yes and no. Conquest play definitely forces certain choices upon all classes but the same will be true of any game mode (deathmatch will just promote GCs everywhere heh).

Although I do feel we should have game mode diversity. Will make things more interesting in the very least.

Exedore.6320:

The only thing that’s certain is that every profession needs access to swiftness or movement boosts that don’t severely compromise their damage potential.

I have a question (more for ANet). If every class receives access to the 33% movement boost (or 25 from signets/traits), then why was this mechanic implemented in the first place. They might as well remove it and increase the speed of all classes inherently by 33%. I feel that too many classes have access to switfness/movespeed and instead of giving it to the remaining few, it should be removed from some of the existing classes.

Demon.5082:

I have a question (more for ANet). If every class receives access to the 33% movement boost (or 25 from signets/traits), then why was this mechanic implemented in the first place. They might as well remove it and increase the speed of all classes inherently by 33%. I feel that too many classes have access to switfness/movespeed and instead of giving it to the remaining few, it should be removed from some of the existing classes.

If it’s done right, it’s a trade-off to more DPS and burst or defense. You can either get to all the battles faster or you can do better in the battles. The movement increases are needed for DPS, but not really defenders. Though you bring up a good point, which is that mobility may be too available and some professions need it toned down rather than others having it increased.

I think this is an extremely unbiased summation of where each class is and what they are lacking.
Great write up.

Most of this stuff is generally considered to be true, but it seems to me that part of the reason why is that there are so few people really investing the time to play tPvP in dedicated teams.

If there were more teams formed and practicing together then you’d see more build diversity. Currently the tPvP community is mostly pick up groups that have a tendency to copy + paste the well known builds, because it is very efficient for forming teams with a desired composition quickly in order to have a solid chance at some wins. With a regular team that works together you can take builds that don’t work in the more common team comps and make them really shine. There is no reason that an appropriately built team couldn’t make use of a Prismatic Understanding Mesmer, or a good Power Necro, or a DPS Guardian, but the meta got so stale from 10 months of basically the same stuff every day that no one is trying different strategy, but instead they are taking the newly balanced professions and shoe horning them into the old strategies.

^ +1

This is one thing I will say, and I know God from esports and have grouped with him he can confirm I am an average or maybe below player, I only play Ranger atleast until today.

Today I made a necro just cause I wanted something that was said to be somewhat easy to play while still being somewhat good. Asked someone what the ideal build was which was 30/30/10 took 2 minutes to look at the weapon skills and went into tournies. The difference between necro and ranger is so huge, I don’t even know what to say. I honestly don’t know what most of my weapon skills do or to really combo them other then when I remember to go into death shroud and use 4 then 5 or is it 5 then 4 i forget.

That has been an instant kill when I have someone around half or lower health. I finish matches with 10-11 kills. I don’t hold up well when its 2-3 players on me mind you but in 1v1 or 2v2 or anything like that I take people out.

I think what amazes me is people complained about Ranger Pets at about an equal level to the current necro situation.

That being said I’m talking mid level pvp, I don’t know how Necros perform top level with really good players, but I can tell you that myself who has next to 0 understanding of playing a necro I am destroying my peers at the same level where I struggle with my ranger a lot of times with my BM build which I’d say is the best build for rangers still.

That all being said I’m going to keep playing necro for awhile because why not I guess, my ranger is so weak compared to it I don’t know why I’d play it right now.

DevO.9854:

This is one thing I will say, and I know God from esports and have grouped with him he can confirm I am an average or maybe below player, I only play Ranger atleast until today.

Today I made a necro just cause I wanted something that was said to be somewhat easy to play while still being somewhat good. Asked someone what the ideal build was which was 30/30/10 took 2 minutes to look at the weapon skills and went into tournies. The difference between necro and ranger is so huge, I don’t even know what to say. I honestly don’t know what most of my weapon skills do or to really combo them other then when I remember to go into death shroud and use 4 then 5 or is it 5 then 4 i forget.

That has been an instant kill when I have someone around half or lower health. I finish matches with 10-11 kills. I don’t hold up well when its 2-3 players on me mind you but in 1v1 or 2v2 or anything like that I take people out.

I think what amazes me is people complained about Ranger Pets at about an equal level to the current necro situation.

That being said I’m talking mid level pvp, I don’t know how Necros perform top level with really good players, but I can tell you that myself who has next to 0 understanding of playing a necro I am destroying my peers at the same level where I struggle with my ranger a lot of times with my BM build which I’d say is the best build for rangers still.

That all being said I’m going to keep playing necro for awhile because why not I guess, my ranger is so weak compared to it I don’t know why I’d play it right now.

I should link your post on my signature for all the Necros who are arguing that the game is fine where it is. I also agree Anet’s ranger pet nerf was a really lazy way of toning down the BM roamer (ironically not really hurting it much). But many changes are like that for other classes (Elementalist fresh air is a lazy band-aid for reducing arcana investment or Warrior cleansing ire trait is a band-aid for condition removal etc). But, I do not think Necros will be where they are for long considering ANet’s popularity for nerfing. (I just hope the do not revoke all the buffs and put Necros in the same place pre-patch :-/ )

I can agree with most of the OPs arguments but when you change the engineer like you want to he would be an invincible 1on1 machine again.

lets be honest, to play an engineer to its fullest you need lots of practise but when you finally get your things together you are pretty much unbeatable. post patch the only class that can take you on is a necromancer that is stated OP and will be toned down with the upcoming patch.

When you give back the stunbreak for elixir R you will see those farpoint invading engis everywhere. with flamethrower #3 (cone-knockback without casttime on a 15s cooldown) and his bombkit he will neutralize the point in a matter of 15 to 30 seconds in a 1on1 and most likely kill the defender afterwards/while capping it full.

Watch older VODs of TPs Teldo when you want to see it.

The only thing that should happen to engineers is that they should be toned down.

Like i said above, the flamethrower #3 is amazing. I would kill to have a skill like that. but thats not all of that 1 utility. you get a savestomp vs 5 out of 8 classes with #5, a long lasting firefield and a pretty huge toolbelt skill. Airblast (#3) should have a casttime of .5seconds with a noticable animation and probably a cooldown of 25-35 seconds. Incendiary Ammo may be toned down a tiny bit as well.

Toss Elixir R is still an amazing selfrezz on a 2 minute cooldown (traited 100s) for 1on1 situations and at least a decent rezz in groupfights. ok you probably cant rezz someone in groupfights with only that but it helps alot.
Here i would give it a 3 minute cooldown, a casttime of 3/4 – 1 second, a noticable throw animation while casting and maybe remove it from the 15point trait of tools to not have it twice in a single fight. To make up for those nerfs the casttime on Elixir R should be removed and the stunbreaker can come back.
When those changes were made it would be easier for burst dds to stop the damage when engineers toss the elixir while engineers still buy time to let the conditions tick and let their CDs/heal come up again.

For the Speedy Gadgets trait: Ok, you normally dont spec for speedy gadgets (20% faster recharge on toolbelt skills) because you go with Speedy Kits and Invigorating Speed where you can get a 100% Swiftness and Vigor uptime with 2 Adepttraits… I would move the Vigortrait to the Mastertrait and give it a 50% uptime. Swiftness is fine on a 100% uptime. Its still great but without it engineers would need rocket boots to have enough mobility.

and to comment on the heal"problem".. the turret is freaking amazing. as an engineer you have to utilize your combofields pretty well and when you do that your self/groupheal is pretty amazing.

the shield change is ok, look at warriors or guardians.

as mentioned before. engineers have probably the highest skillcap in the game but when you are playing on a higher level other classes lack so much compared to the engineer that the engineer can outshine most of them.

I think there are a lot of good points and ideas being passed around in this thread, and frankly I am surprised anyone actually bothered to read it.

@Laserbolt Yes and no. Conquest allows some build types like support bunker to shine while it nerfs other builds like phantasm mesmer which were great in fights but horrible at moving around the map and capping points and supporting teammates.

@Myrmidian We play together fairly regularly and I like you but everything you say I always basically disagree with at least in some way. When creating builds there are always only a fairly small and limited amount of ways to do it that synergize well. I don’t think new builds haven’t been discovered because noone looks for them but because they get made → tested → failed. I’m still trying to make shamans amulet + elixer gun work on engie despite it coming up short over and over.

@Dev Sorry the shout ranger didn’t workout. Like I said the shout skills that have short rechanges are just too bad to make it viable. I’m looking forward to playing with you on necro.

@LeGi I see your point and it is certainly possible that if engineers actually got everything I talked about they would go from not only playable to OP. That said they really do need a new stunbreaker and I think rocketboots is the most obvious and least broken option. Maybe R would be too much given the shield revert and added traits but on its own it wouldn’t be enough to make the class OP.

Godofallu.2935:

@Myrmidian We play together fairly regularly and I like you but everything you say I always basically disagree with at least in some way. When creating builds there are always only a fairly small and limited amount of ways to do it that synergize well. I don’t think new builds haven’t been discovered because noone looks for them but because they get made -> tested -> failed. I’m still trying to make shamans amulet + elixer gun work on engie despite it coming up short over and over.

Yeah, always fun to run with you.

A lot of things get tested and fail and get abandoned too quickly, and a lot of things get tested and fail because they are fail. I think a large part of it is that tweaking one profession in a comp necessitates tweaking all of the others as well in a lot of cases and it really takes a whole comp dinking around with their builds to make things viable. That is exactly why pre-patch you didn’t see Necros and they generally were not considered desirable, but a good one with a team built around it was always exceptional at flipping the outcome of a team fight. It wasn’t that Necro couldn’t be good in tPvP pre-patch, it was that it required changing so many other things about the comp that it was usually considered undesirable.

I believe that there are a large number of builds in this game that fit this same archetype, and I think our disagreement on this particular point is probably more a matter of semantics than anything. Is a build “viable” if it requires building a comp around it for it to be successful? I tend to think that it is (you may disagree), but the probability of groups investing that heavily toward the skill set of one player is extremely slim and non-existent in pick ups and solo ques. Furthermore if that team then wants to play and that key team member is off-line it necessitates reworking the team comp to play with whatever the substitute is running which compounds the impracticality of running these kinds of specialized builds.

While these types of builds might be viable I would suggest that finding ways to make them work probably requires too much effort for the return that one would net from it, because the community is so small.

RE: Shaman Engie – I dunno what you are referencing there. There is a high probability that I was theory crafting on a serious drunk when I came up with that idea (if I put that into your head), although I do think that Elixir Gun has some serious potential in the current condi heavy meta due to the ability to apply weakness and AoE cleanse for team mates.

“The other thing guardian bunkers bring that other professions can’t match is retaliation. Retaliation can singlehandedly wreck certain DPS builds and can actually lead to a very large damage output which makes a guardian bunker capable of applying DPS pressure while running a pure defense build.”

Have you even seen the Immortal Mesmer build by Pyroatheist?…..
Combine the mesmer 15 sec retal and a guardians whirling wrath, you can almost sit back and laugh as he kills himself.

insaneseagull.7063:

“The other thing guardian bunkers bring that other professions can’t match is retaliation. Retaliation can singlehandedly wreck certain DPS builds and can actually lead to a very large damage output which makes a guardian bunker capable of applying DPS pressure while running a pure defense build.”

Have you even seen the Immortal Mesmer build by Pyroatheist?…..
Combine the mesmer 15 sec retal and a guardians whirling wrath, you can almost sit back and laugh as he kills himself.

True but a mesmer is no good at holding points since they rely on constant stealths and have non existant knockbacks. Also, I think (not 100% sure) mesmer retaliation is not an AOE buff like guardian’s which is why grenades/traps suffer so much from it.

DevO.9854:

Today I made a necro just cause I wanted something that was said to be somewhat easy to play while still being somewhat good. Asked someone what the ideal build was which was 30/30/10 took 2 minutes to look at the weapon skills and went into tournies. The difference between necro and ranger is so huge, I don’t even know what to say. I honestly don’t know what most of my weapon skills do or to really combo them other then when I remember to go into death shroud and use 4 then 5 or is it 5 then 4 i forget.

Funny, that’s exactly how the ronger class has been like start-on, judging from the comments of the people who rerolled one.
But in all honesty, at least the necro doesn’t have a pet to gib players while their master is sitting on 2k+ toughness and spams traps and defensive boon to no end. At leats now their sick cond removal can be overwhelmed without having to roll an engi.

On topic, good summary overall, but not quite as unbiased as some comments suggest. Esp when it comes to the engi and the related buff proposals. Well, given how the screams and cries of agony will have the necromancer nerfed after the class finally received some love 10 months in after getting hit by the most brutal of nerf bats right before release, and is now actually worth taking WITHOUT having to design a team around it COMPLETELY, I dare say the engi will be back up where you’ve been prepatch in no time.
kitten those CC spamming crate/turret poopers.

KarlaGrey.5903:

DevO.9854:

Today I made a necro just cause I wanted something that was said to be somewhat easy to play while still being somewhat good. Asked someone what the ideal build was which was 30/30/10 took 2 minutes to look at the weapon skills and went into tournies. The difference between necro and ranger is so huge, I don’t even know what to say. I honestly don’t know what most of my weapon skills do or to really combo them other then when I remember to go into death shroud and use 4 then 5 or is it 5 then 4 i forget.

Funny, that’s exactly how the ronger class has been like start-on, judging from the comments of the people who rerolled one.
But in all honesty, at least the necro doesn’t have a pet to gib players while their master is sitting on 2k+ toughness and spams traps and defensive boon to no end. At leats now their sick cond removal can be overwhelmed without having to roll an engi.

On topic, good summary overall, but not quite as unbiased as some comments suggest. Esp when it comes to the engi and the related buff proposals. Well, given how the screams and cries of agony will have the necromancer nerfed after the class finally received some love 10 months in after getting hit by the most brutal of nerf bats right before release, and is now actually worth taking WITHOUT having to design a team around it COMPLETELY, I dare say the engi will be back up where you’ve been prepatch in no time.
kitten those CC spamming crate/turret poopers.

So basically your telling me rangers can spec 0/30/30/30/30, and have 7 utility spots

Sounds like the usual BM build, yup!
But it’s nothing like the 30/30/30/30/30 necro build everyone is complaining about now!

Any person getting hit by a ranger pet a) isn’t moving, wanting to sit a point, or b) is not dodging chill and cripple.

If you have swiftness or a speed signet and are moving, the pet will not hit you, ever. If you don’t have swiftness, but are moving, the pet will sporadically hit you but since it roots itself to attack the rate of hits going in is low.

In a perfect case scenario, you always dodge all CC and play on terrain that allows you to position yourself in a way that makes the AI hard to catch up.

True but a mesmer is no good at holding points since they rely on constant stealths and have non existant knockbacks. Also, I think (not 100% sure) mesmer retaliation is not an AOE buff like guardian’s which is why grenades/traps suffer so much from it.[/quote]

Ahhh.forgot that the mesmer retal wasn’t aoe, BUT,with that build I’m sure you can hold points,not forever but at least for a good amount of time. It really depends on the number of people engaging you. 3-4 you might make it,but 4 +…no chance solo.

No thief analysis, meh. I do agree tough, anet has just kept on nerfing till we lost every dedicated role, and now they are buffing things that other classes just do better. Roamer thief is still a good addition tough imo.

Very accurate for Tpvp. However as long as Spvp and PvE exist, this analysis only applies to tpvp.

What has been said of guardian in tpvp is true..however playing guardian solo in spvp is a very different story. The retail shout is basically what allows them to even score points mostly due to how many professions can simply out run them if they choose not to engage them, and how easy they are to whittle down quickly with only 12,500 Hp when running 30/30/ 10 whatever else+ full dolyak runes.

Their strength is their weakness..excellent at support,..not so great when they’ve got no one to support.(Which spvp and PvE are mostly solo play game modes.)

The biggest shame for guardian is that there is no reward system for support only. In tpvp if you win, you at least get the 200 rank points..in spvp it not unusual to guardians only scoring mid order points ir wooden spoon. As you’ve stated, their too slow for roaming fast kills. Their HP is dangerously low when they spec full power/precision damage and are easily shut down with chill..and when traited to be far more tanky, their damage is ok, provided it is able to hit and not get dodged when the animations trigger broadcasting their intent.

Nice read though. Good to see others PoV.

I like your suggestion for Banners. They should have some way to remove conditions. Banners have been buffed a lot, and I would like to use them, but they just aren’t there yet.

Your view about the engineer is just terrible as hell…. i dont know if NA guys cant or wont paly this class like it’s played on EU, but it seems you actually dont know how kitten strong this class is even with the elex R nerf.

Engi can easy win a Necro, 2 ways are out.

Simple normal node build with elex R, once getting the rez necro will die.

Second is the OP trait immun to condis at 25%…

Engi has no grp support?

Node build has awesome combo fields, grp stealth for years, fast stealth for stomp preventing your allys, amazing AOE CC with bomb kit and flamethrower, Waterfield from the turret, AOE dmg from bombs are also rly strong.

I think your actually point of the engineer is totaly broken… btw engis dont need a stunbreaker… This class have the advantage from all the other condi builds, dont have to glass spec, so you cant oneshot them. Give them a viable stunbreaker back if you nerfed this kitten condi overlaod.

In my opinion Enge is still over the top… a reasson why all top tier teams running an engi…..

my 2 cent

Ps: the rest sounds still fine. +1

Like Prozon said, you’re wrong about the Engie and not just that, Rangers not having mobility? I really have to ask, are we talking about the same class?

nice to see that im not the only one who think’s God’s opinion is “fullofhimself” and not really “ofallofu[s]”.

Thank you, Prozon and others.

NA pvp has this festering problem of the “big boys” who are the best at kiling the fastest with the least buttons think they are “the meta”.

it’s laughable and like a weed choking out the growth of this community.

Or he’s simply more realistic than other people here.

@Prozon: It’s always nice to see an opposing viewpoint especially when it comes from someone who is clearly a pretty good player.

It’s true that the NA meta really doesn’t like engies all that much anymore while a lot of the EU teams (and you) are still running them. That said while I can certainly admit it’s possible I undervalue them I think you overvalue them.

Of course they should have access to a stunbreaker. Playing without a stunbreaker is a horrible feeling.

Pre patch I would have put engineer down as the best roamer and 1v1 class in the game. While it is still good at small fights and roaming I don’t think it is as reliable as it was before at consistently winning duels and small fights. I personally would rather run an elementalist is it’s place.

If I could make one change to guardian it would be to add a 4th virtue.

Virtue of Speed
Passive: 25% run speed (when out of combat)
Active: Teleport to an enemy (does not have a damage aspect just pure movement)

Godofallu.2935:

@Prozon: It’s always nice to see an opposing viewpoint especially when it comes from someone who is clearly a pretty good player.

It’s true that the NA meta really doesn’t like engies all that much anymore while a lot of the EU teams (and you) are still running them. That said while I can certainly admit it’s possible I undervalue them I think you overvalue them.

Of course they should have access to a stunbreaker. Playing without a stunbreaker is a horrible feeling.

Pre patch I would have put engineer down as the best roamer and 1v1 class in the game. While it is still good at small fights and roaming I don’t think it is as reliable as it was before at consistently winning duels and small fights. I personally would rather run an elementalist is it’s place.

we never had this kind of flamethrower/bomb engi on our team. we had an HGH-engi till about 1 month ago.

like i mentioned above, engis need a stunbreaker but in general they should be toned down a little.

in domination where you have to stand on points to hold/capture them he has too much access to AOE-Dmg/-Condis/-Knockbacks. Well i already stated my opinion on engis and how to “balance” them in this thread…

btw, i wouldnt take ele as an offensive roamer because an ele cant neutralize a point vs a half decent player. without tornado that is and tornado is on a 150s CD. knockback on flamethrower is 15s CD f.e.

Godofallu.2935:

@Prozon: It’s always nice to see an opposing viewpoint especially when it comes from someone who is clearly a pretty good player.

It’s true that the NA meta really doesn’t like engies all that much anymore while a lot of the EU teams (and you) are still running them. That said while I can certainly admit it’s possible I undervalue them I think you overvalue them.

Of course they should have access to a stunbreaker. Playing without a stunbreaker is a horrible feeling.

Pre patch I would have put engineer down as the best roamer and 1v1 class in the game. While it is still good at small fights and roaming I don’t think it is as reliable as it was before at consistently winning duels and small fights. I personally would rather run an elementalist is it’s place.

Like Legi said, on EU are only Ugly and TCG out in the tops without running a Engi node build in their lineup.

Prepatch it was kinda ok, still OP but you could handle it quite easier than in this condi Meta now.

The point is, at the moment you dont rly need a stunbreaker, the dps from an elly is coming instant now with the blink combo in less than a second, you dont need the updraft combos from the past.

Thiefs are rarly played and mostly s/d no full burst oneshots anymore.

Most Messmers playing with the greatsword now, fully shatter burst build is rare also.

The Meta changed from burst to much more sustain and condi dmg, thats the point while stunbreakers are not even used on most of the classes. In Past an ele without any stunbreaker was never played, now they dont need it anymore, the blink is just enough to evade some imobilized kitten .

(Snuusnuu, just played with you) I agree with the general direction you’re taking the warrior and those types of buffs hit a deeper idea on where the warrior is envisioned. That being, a support/sustain role somewhat like the guardian. That’s also reflected in your retaliation changes but, the War still requires stability for it to happen.

Banners sorely need a change in general. I would hesitate on putting For Great Justice on a longer CD as it’s a primary source of Healing output when mixing it with the Shout Healing 30pt in Defense. I have to agree that Cleansing Ire being a side grade. I actually liked the original Adept more because of the availability for more specs.

I agree with the OP on Stun Breaks not negating Knockdown like they should. This is most evident with the new map (Skyhammer). Also I agree that Retal needs to be toned down or at least its damage is very misplaced. The devs designed Retal with the intention to reduce AOE. Retal has had a HUGE amount unintended consequences but, that’s a whole different topic all together.

Godofallu.2935:

My team never ran a thief and most teams that have thief’s are starting to move away from the class in favour of the double condition midline.

Enough said about thieves within tpvp.

We just have to live with the constant nerfs while other classes get buffs over buffs. i got used to it and learned to work around those nerfs..

I would like to have some depths for the thiefclass. having 1 weaponset for every spec where you mostly bash 2-3 buttons + some utilitys isnt too much fun and probably the reason why everybody is whining about the class. mashing the right 2-3 buttons is pretty easy and vs not that experienced players it works just fine.

balance on a higher level of play is another story.