Great patch. Unfortunately, meta is still the same
Also, in response to the first half of your post: Ranged weapons in this game do less damage than melee weapons because of the simple fact that close range weapons put you in harms way where as with ranged you can snipe from safety. More risk = more reward. You seem to think that for some strange reason bunker/ healing/ support builds should not even be able to survive vs the weak damage of your ranged weapon? Give me a break dude, you seem to want defensive spects to fall over if you breath on them.
Also refer to the post above this for more info on why it is hard to kill bunkers with warrior.
Once agian I will explain what burst dps is, it is a dps that does damage in a very large all out attack. If they can do a big enough attack to destroy a bunker with thier high defenses then the balance build is getting destroyed. This is why there are no balanced builds at the moment, they are sub par at each specialized role. Also, why you would relegate every condition build to be a helper that must have someone with them, who in your opinion should just make certain fights easier ignores that this makes it better to run full dps.
Currently bringing a good condition player is necessary to counter a good bunker, change it to what you suggest and all you need is burst dps. But if you cant see how making burst effective enough to destroy all out bunkers means they will destroy balanced and condition builds, thus leading to a burst arms race then I will stop replying to you. I am just banging my head against a brick wall of “I want it dead now, nef plox”
I think you are starting to see more and more balanced/control specs filtering into meta, they are just not as sexy to play because people want kills or the glory of not dying more than point control. I recently made a roamer/bomberman Engineer spec and the perma sprint + knockbacks means I can counter cap points like never before, and usually end up topping out the scoreboards, but I might get 1 or 2 kills a match.
It all depends on how you want to play, and most people want to play PvP to defeat other players, the people willing to play balanced specs usually do better in organized tPvP over sPvP, and are fewer because more time is required to put into the build, and no kill comes very quick over another player.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
I think you are starting to see more and more balanced/control specs filtering into meta, they are just not as sexy to play because people want kills or the glory of not dying more than point control. I recently made a roamer/bomberman Engineer spec and the perma sprint + knockbacks means I can counter cap points like never before, and usually end up topping out the scoreboards, but I might get 1 or 2 kills a match.
It all depends on how you want to play, and most people want to play PvP to defeat other players, the people willing to play balanced specs usually do better in organized tPvP over sPvP, and are fewer because more time is required to put into the build, and no kill comes very quick over another player.
+1, I actually switched to a build like that for my engie and am now having a lot of fun. I am happy to see more ppl are branching out and trying to fit balanced into the meta. It just seems like no matter how well I do, many ppl gripe that a full dps would apply more pressure or a bunker is really needed or condition is really needed; leading to my posts above about how the meta shakes out. I do dream of a GW2 where an elementalist doesnt have to kill their treb and a mesmer isnt on ours; but raw efficiency is what comes with competition. Fun apparently gets in the way of some ppls l33tness.
“I’m watching you violate my game mode”
Wow, so much crap in this thread. And no, I am not sanitizing my “tone” for the benefit of sensitive individuals, as I am pretty bloody angry and thus unlikely to give a toss about your feelings or your impression of me.
For starters, every weapon should have a use, and all sorts of builds should be viable for every class. Having to toss in a hammer or mace because nothing else works is a problem (and let’s be honest here – if it’s effective against a bunker, it’s effective against everything).
Secondly, have you actually tried to melee a kiting elementalist build? Are you seriously suggesting that melee is the only way to deal with them when they have so many ways to counter enemies that are attempting to engage them in such distances?
Thirdly, if a class can’t deal with bunker spec while others can something is wrong with that class. I don’t even care how you justify this, if warrior as a whole sucks at dueling then they suck, period.
Fourthly, you can point at any special build you want, all it proves is that that particular build is effective, not that the game as a whole is in any way balanced. That engineer build in particular is extremely effective simply because it’s so heavy on CC… heavier on CC than just about any other build out there.
Finally, I’m too tired and kitten to think straight, so I’m GTFO. The game thus far has been such a friggin’ disappointment to me I don’t even want to deal with it right now, just, ugh, kitten #8230;
For starters, every weapon should have a use, and all sorts of builds should be viable for every class. Having to toss in a hammer or mace because nothing else works is a problem
So you think that every weapon should be the same as every other weapon with no weapon having a certain situation that it is better in? You think that you should be able to just hundred blades on everyone’s face regardless of how many seconds of protection they have or how many heals they have and not have to think about using hammer cc against a defensive build? Because that is what I hear you saying. I think that each weapon needs to be useful but that doesn’t mean that each weapon is the same in every situation. Hundred blades crushes an unbooned opponent, hammer is good for interrupting a survivable builds abilities.
(and let’s be honest here – if it’s effective against a bunker, it’s effective against everything).
Lol cc might be effective against everything but it doesn’t do much damage, why would you cc a player who isn’t bunker or at none critical times when you can just hit him for straight damage.
Secondly, have you actually tried to melee a kiting elementalist build? Are ]you seriously suggesting that melee is the only way to deal with them when they have so many ways to counter enemies that are attempting to engage them in such distances?
Why don’t you try swaping weapons now and then dude. You don’t have to ONLY melee or ONLY ranged, switch weapons at appropriate times to maximize damage output. At this point I’m starting to think its a l2p issue.
Thirdly, if a class can’t deal with bunker spec while others can something is wrong with that class. I don’t even care how you justify this, if warrior as a whole sucks at dueling then they suck, period.
Necros can generally deal with bunkers because they have a lot of boon removal but they have trouble with a lot of other classes because their damage is generally low. From what you are saying you want warriors to be able to output their high damage with the same amount of boon removal as necros….. that is not gona happen bro. One class can’t have everything otherwise we would have to rename it to mesmer2.
Finally, I’m too tired and kitten to think straight, so I’m GTFO. The game thus far has been such a friggin’ disappointment to me I don’t even want to deal with it right now, just, ugh, kitten ..
Sounds to me like you might be more comfortable in an fps like cod or something…. although you may still find enemy’s too tanky for your tastes.
(edited by Parakeet.6083)
I have to agree with Merciless. The current Meta is of extremes. You’re usually bunker or glass cannon and this is not fun or balanced. As in, its not fun to bunker and, many more balanced (offensively/defensively) classes/specs have a very hard time being viable. Either way, I think Anet has said they’re already looking into this and a full defensive build is not intended.
Merciless it seems you’ve made posts like this before and, I think you might benefit from the question, “How long do I wait until I quit or this gets fixed?”. I vote don’t even suffer through it. Play something else because, what if it’s never fixed?
Wow, so much crap in this thread. And no, I am not sanitizing my “tone” for the benefit of sensitive individuals, as I am pretty bloody angry and thus unlikely to give a toss about your feelings or your impression of me.
For starters, every weapon should have a use, and all sorts of builds should be viable for every class. Having to toss in a hammer or mace because nothing else works is a problem (and let’s be honest here – if it’s effective against a bunker, it’s effective against everything).
Secondly, have you actually tried to melee a kiting elementalist build? Are you seriously suggesting that melee is the only way to deal with them when they have so many ways to counter enemies that are attempting to engage them in such distances?
Thirdly, if a class can’t deal with bunker spec while others can something is wrong with that class. I don’t even care how you justify this, if warrior as a whole sucks at dueling then they suck, period.
Fourthly, you can point at any special build you want, all it proves is that that particular build is effective, not that the game as a whole is in any way balanced. That engineer build in particular is extremely effective simply because it’s so heavy on CC… heavier on CC than just about any other build out there.
Finally, I’m too tired and kitten to think straight, so I’m GTFO. The game thus far has been such a friggin’ disappointment to me I don’t even want to deal with it right now, just, ugh, kitten ..
Another option for bunker busting as a Warrior is CC’ing them off the point to neutralize. Taugrim has a great damage+CC, rifle/hammer build. Can’t say this would work that well on an elementalist because of the amount of stun breaks, but it puts a lot of pressure on who ever you’re hitting.
I have to agree with Merciless. The current Meta is of extremes. You’re usually bunker or glass cannon and this is not fun or balanced. As in, its not fun to bunker and, many more balanced (offensively/defensively) classes/specs have a very hard time being viable. Either way, I think Anet has said they’re already looking into this and a full defensive build is not intended.
Merciless it seems you’ve made posts like this before and, I think you might benefit from the question, “How long do I wait until I quit or this gets fixed?”. I vote don’t even suffer through it. Play something else because, what if it’s never fixed?
I don’t know, man. Sometimes I do feel like I’m suffering through the kitten in the game. Lol. But this is why I wish the devs were a little more open about their vision and what they’re trying to achieve.
In my opinion, bunkers are too strong. But what if they want to keep bunkers in the current state? Nobody really knows, because nobody really says anything. :/
@ Fenixz “Anet have stated over and over again that it is intended for dps/brust oriented builds to destroy full all in tanking builds so the game can be DYNAMIC and interesting from the 1-st to the last secound.”
Yes they have said it repeatedly, each time they do it is dumb. It has been brought up several times if full on burst counters full on bunker then by proxy burst counters condition( it can kill them before they stack conditions), if the glass cannon burst can then counter other burst because of their low defenses and health then all that is left in the meta is burst.
If a bunker cannot stalemate a dps 1v1 then they are pointless, why would you have one if a thief can come burst them down in a few seconds?
No, every time THIS is repeated it is dumb.
This is how it’s SUPPOSED to work:
- Burst/glass cannon builds counter bunker builds by forcing them to either retreat from the point or die faster than any other build can manage
- Bunker builds can hold points longer than any other build, but sacrifice killing power to do so – they should be unable to kill even glass cannon builds (in fact, they shouldn’t be able to kill anybody)
- Balanced builds counter burst builds by having the damage mitigation to survive their burst while dishing out enough damage to defeat their squishy butts
- Condition builds are supposed to support any of the above by dramatically reducing the combat efficiency of the enemy while dealing decent sustained DPS, they are NOT supposed to be 1v1Right now, thief mobility + burst effectively counters every other glass cannon build and thus makes them irrelevant, while bunker builds are so tough that even the highest DPS builds in the entire game can’t unseat them in a reasonable amount of time. This has resulted in the incredibly stale and boring meta we are now stuck with until AN does something drastic.
And that’s how it is.
Came in here and read through everything.
This guy is correct.
This is how the meta is suppose to work.
At the moment, bunkers have the best of both worlds. They can defend and assume an offensive position. Bunkers should not be able to kill, or drag fights out for an absurd amount of time like they can now.
If you are defending HAVING to take 2 players off the game field to counter 1, then I believe you are misunderstanding the idea of balance.
Yes, this is a team game. No, it cannot be balanced 1v1.
However, with GW2’s strive to be an e-sport, there needs to be a much larger gap inbetween skill and skill-less.
I was looking forward to having the main competitive mode NOT be death match (arena).
Now, I really wish it was death match.
Wow, so much crap in this thread. And no, I am not sanitizing my “tone” for the benefit of sensitive individuals, as I am pretty bloody angry and thus unlikely to give a toss about your feelings or your impression of me.
For starters, every weapon should have a use, and all sorts of builds should be viable for every class. Having to toss in a hammer or mace because nothing else works is a problem (and let’s be honest here – if it’s effective against a bunker, it’s effective against everything).
Secondly, have you actually tried to melee a kiting elementalist build? Are you seriously suggesting that melee is the only way to deal with them when they have so many ways to counter enemies that are attempting to engage them in such distances?
Thirdly, if a class can’t deal with bunker spec while others can something is wrong with that class. I don’t even care how you justify this, if warrior as a whole sucks at dueling then they suck, period.
Fourthly, you can point at any special build you want, all it proves is that that particular build is effective, not that the game as a whole is in any way balanced. That engineer build in particular is extremely effective simply because it’s so heavy on CC… heavier on CC than just about any other build out there.
Finally, I’m too tired and kitten to think straight, so I’m GTFO. The game thus far has been such a friggin’ disappointment to me I don’t even want to deal with it right now, just, ugh, kitten ..
Another option for bunker busting as a Warrior is CC’ing them off the point to neutralize. Taugrim has a great damage+CC, rifle/hammer build. Can’t say this would work that well on an elementalist because of the amount of stun breaks, but it puts a lot of pressure on who ever you’re hitting.
Wanted to also chime in on this, since I main warrior.
Warrior versus bunker is more or less ****** for the warrior in any situation.
Bunkers rely purely on tankyness and CC.
It is VERY EASY to out-CC and out-live a warrior. Warrior is an extremely limited class at the moment.
I know it’s kind of an amorphous concept, but do people understand that “balance” isn’t defined as “each class has the capability to kill every other class in a 1v1 setting?” Sometimes the checks and balances for a given tactic/build/class/ability aren’t siting on buttons 1-9 for you. If someone specs specifically so that they’re soaking up lots of damage and surviving, the balance there is that they cannot do enough damage to kill you. They bought survivability and paid for it with damage output. That severely restricts their role on the field and therefore it is not only acceptable, but the ENTIRE POINT that you might need two people to bring them down before they can get support.
I see a lot of complaining on these boards about things that are actually amazingly well balanced but since the counter to it isn’t to push 3 when you see them doing X and push 4 when you see Y, folks don’t want to entertain it.
If you can’t put out enough damage to take out a certain build 1v1 in what sound like as close to lab conditions as you’re going to get, then you don’t have the right build for that job or your profession is not designed to counter that scenario – good thing it’s a team game. You don’t have to quit – just find something else that you’re suited for doing and do that job. I can’t catch – I rarely insist on playing first base.
This is an MMORPG. In PVP some builds have to be weak against certain others and if anyone’s thinking there should be a build that allows them to stomp anything at any time I think you need to check out single player games.
Wow,
You guys are saying a burst spec should be able to burst down a bunker spec… Players that spend every ounce of stat allocation and trait points into toughness healing and vitality, so if that’s possible for burst then what the hell chance does a “balanced” build have against burst?? This game would just be Burst Wars 2 and not every class has burst capability or at least the same burst, my necro bursts nowhere near as effectively as my thief. And my ele doesn’t burst like my necro. The way you are saying it burst would be king and counter everything.
A player that spends every ounce of stats and traits in surviving SHOULD be able to survive, how many times do you see bunkers dropping people? They sacrifice everything to stay alive. They hit like a wet noodle in comparison so it’s a fair trade off.
Capture point games of course are going to revolve around his play style. If they had a death match this wouldn’t even be an issue.
USMC 1st Battalion 10th Marines
Guardian-Blueprinted, Warrior- Grizzilli
[JCM] Guild: Ehmry Bay WvW
Guardian-Blueprinted, Warrior- Grizzilli
[JCM] Guild: Ehmry Bay WvW
I just came here to mention how utterly hilarious it is that people keep repeating the same arguments ad nauseum no matter how often they’re countered or shot down.
Also funny is how some folks completely invalidate their opinion by resorting to outrageous hyperbole (’don’t like it, go play an FPS or a single-player game!‘, because there’s no such thing as a middle ground).
I think its hilarious how much someone will cry because their class doesn’t bring everything needed to win against every opponent in a team game.
Let me consider for a moment that ludicrous argument.
The problem is that warrior doesn’t have the tools to actually kill a bunker build with any sort of efficiency or even regularity. Supposedly, the idea is that they should make up for it in other areas to cover for the slack.
I say this is nonsense. This is just a symptom of greater issues with the class.
Consider, for example, WHY a warrior can’t deal with bunker builds. The problem is three-fold:
1. Warriors lack the ability to stack conditions (particularly poison) on a target, and
2. Warriors lack the ability to recover from even the tiniest amounts of sustained DPS (which is what bunker builds are bringing)
3. Warriors lack the raw damage to bring down a hard target
Consider these three flaws, and think about how this affects them in every other role in the game. If you have even the slightest capacity for thought, you should already have realized that this means they are sub-par everywhere. I find it utterly hilarious that people say warriors should be roamers, when just about every other class is a better pick for this (especially mesmer). We are considered bottom-tier in tPvP for a reason.
That doesn’t even touch the fact that bunker builds are still ludicrously hard to unseat in any 1v1 situation with any class, even the ones best suited towards it.
So yeah. It’s “hilarious”. Hilarious that I put up with this crap. Hilarious that it’s like this in the first place (after how many months of testing?). Hilarious that I’m still posting here when I should be doing something infinitely more productive.
Another Merciless QQ post.
Metas do not change overnight. People will try the same methods untill new methods that defeat them are used.
However, in a capture and hold, bunkers and roamers are going to be powerful no matter what, because that’s’ the core design of the game type. It has little or nothing to do with power of bunkers in sPvP. If it was deathmatch, bunkers would be a waste of space because they would either get focused one on one or their allies would continually die around them.
You don’t ruin effective game type builds. Fixing the Aegis issues will balance out Guardian a bit better against other bunkers, and changing assassin’s signet tones Thief Down as a gib roamer. (Yes, it’s more damage over time, but the over time part isn’t the issue with thief, it’s the burst. Now there is more time to react.)
Complaining about the party composition we have for Capture and Hold is like complaining that the meta is 1 support, 1 ranged dps, 1 tanky dps, 1 jungle, and 1 AP mid in League of Legends.
That’s not broken, that’s what the game is settling itself into.
Yes its a work in progress and this patch was a good enough step.
You are right that the currrently only game mode is dictating all of the meta. However when this meta starts to become as such that three out of five people feel the need to be the same single archetype to compete, the developers are in their right to nudge the meta game in the opposite direction. Chalking it up to ‘thats just the game deal with it’ without trying to change it is a bad idea.
2 bases required, 2 bunkers. I think most people can live with that. But three is pushing it too far. 2 bunkers and 2 roamers would probably produce the most fun and fair games.
And you sound like all the Thieves did about the Backstab bullkitten. “BS’s fine, l2p, blah, blah, blah”
Nice to end that with a baseless accusation. I was against Assassin’s Signet the way it was and I’m more happy with the current incarnation (People think of this still as a huge boost to THF damage, but they forget that not all damage abilities are weighed equally.)
Unless the specific type of Bunker counters your build exactly, you can ALWAYS 1 v 1 anyone. You don’t even know your own argument, so it’s increasingly hard to respect it.
Your argument is that a Bunker can outlast until your enemy team arrives, and this is fine. This is actually GOOD gameplay. Yes, Bunker is effective in doing so. No, not perfectly so. Having the enemy team show up does not mean the end of your assault. In fact, it’s often more smart to switch gears and destroy the bunker’s aiding teammate. Which is why it’s important that your DPS has decent sustain
By the way, it’s a waste of time having 3 bunkers vs 2 dps unless you have no confidence that you can hold 2 points with 2 bunkers. Only time you assault the third point is if your enemy overextends on one point.
With boon removal now effecting Aegis, the bunker classes are more or less on even footing. There still needs to be buff to certain AoE damage and specific condition builds, which will add more depth to the fight (Less single target focus damage means that enemies that Aid the bunker suffer damage at the same time as the bunker, weakeneing the Bunker’s ability to sustain on point.)
However your argment that bunkers should simply die faster is wrong (This should happen on its own as other performance specs are brought up to par, no need for direct nerf.) If anything, the ease of players to be able to swap utlities/weapons in order to sprint back to aid points is more of a problem than the bunkers themselves. Rather than further nerf classes, Anet may want to consider extending the death timer after making the AoE adjustments.
Well Anet already has our money they can take their time. Its not like subs are at risk. Anyone notice how many new items they added to the cash shop instead of fixing minor bugs in pvp.
Dr. Professor Evil – Engi
Stunned Girls Can’t Say No <Hawt>
Stunned Girls Can’t Say No <Hawt>
False logic.
First off. It’s easy as all daylights to make a skin, they likely have a back catalogue of them already built to last till the end of first quarter 13.
Second, you’re talking two entirely different teams. One is the graphics department, the other programming/coding. And coding can take far… FAR more time especially when dealing with bugs, as the error can be one single widget out of line out of millions.
I understand if you have absolutely no clue how game design works this might all seem the same to you, but please don’t speak out of such sheer levels of ignorance.
Hey Bishop, Zzod here from Rift,
I also play a group support bunker guardian using shouts with high retaliation, and I have no idea what you are doing, but I think my winrate against thieves 1 on 1 is easily 95%+ in tpvp. Probably 99% in spvp. They are insanely easy for this build. I have to practically be afk to lose against them. No idea what you are doing. Mesmer is my hardest class 1 on 1, and even against them, its a close match(assuming they are quite solid or better).
@GankSinatra
I see 3 bunkers more than I do 2 bunkers, only because they will leave 1 at their natural, and 2 at midpoint. We down one (finally), and the other 1 rezzes him because he’s got Stability.
Personally, I wish they’d lower your starting HP when you get downed. As it stands now, players who are downed can get rezzed faster than they can get finished (in most cases). But that’s just personal opinion.
@Kalar Meadia
A bunker who is only prolonging the fight until his roamer teammate arrives speaks volumes about how bunkers are just plain very effective at staying alive.
Again, do we know that this is intended? No.
Is my personal opinion that they need to be toned down in order for an opponent to have a better chance? Yes.
What is the actual drawback to a player playing as bunker that can survive long enough until his team mates arrive? Nothing. It’s too effective as it is. Sorry.
There is no drawback to having a bunker sit on a point in a competitive game, other than sheer boredom for said bunker. All he has to do is survive long until his teammates come to help. That’s it. That’s all they’re there for. So in your opinion, you may consider this “GOOD” gameplay", but to me it sounds like a PvE version of a mini boss or something. It’s just plain ridiculous.
@Zzod
Thank you for coming in and admitting something like that about your class. It speaks volumes about your character, as not many players would do the same thing, but would rather raise cries of defense to keep things as they are, which are causing issues.
Came in here and read through everything.
This guy is correct.
This is how the meta is suppose to work.
At the moment, bunkers have the best of both worlds. They can defend and assume an offensive position. Bunkers should not be able to kill, or drag fights out for an absurd amount of time like they can now.
So in your opinions bunkers should not be able to kill anything or stay alive for very long……. righto….
If you are defending HAVING to take 2 players off the game field to counter 1, then I believe you are misunderstanding the idea of balance.
You are misunderstanding the concept of balance if you think that a player who is focusing on playing defensively should be easily killed by anyone who lols up to him. Do you not understand that someone who focuses on playing a tanky role actually needs to be tanky? If you can’t effectively be a bunker then it just turns into a pure dps arms race.
Let me consider for a moment that ludicrous argument.
The problem is that warrior doesn’t have the tools to actually kill a bunker build with any sort of efficiency or even regularity. Supposedly, the idea is that they should make up for it in other areas to cover for the slack.
I say this is nonsense. This is just a symptom of greater issues with the class.
Consider, for example, WHY a warrior can’t deal with bunker builds. The problem is three-fold:
1. Warriors lack the ability to stack conditions (particularly poison) on a target, and
2. Warriors lack the ability to recover from even the tiniest amounts of sustained DPS (which is what bunker builds are bringing)
3. Warriors lack the raw damage to bring down a hard targetConsider these three flaws, and think about how this affects them in every other role in the game. If you have even the slightest capacity for thought, you should already have realized that this means they are sub-par everywhere. I find it utterly hilarious that people say warriors should be roamers, when just about every other class is a better pick for this (especially mesmer). We are considered bottom-tier in tPvP for a reason.
That doesn’t even touch the fact that bunker builds are still ludicrously hard to unseat in any 1v1 situation with any class, even the ones best suited towards it.
So yeah. It’s “hilarious”. Hilarious that I put up with this crap. Hilarious that it’s like this in the first place (after how many months of testing?). Hilarious that I’m still posting here when I should be doing something infinitely more productive.
You do know that warriors are not just dps machines right? They bring huge amounts of cc to the table. Sounds like you are not making full use of the warriors repertoire.
You do know that warriors are not just dps machines right? They bring huge amounts of cc to the table. Sounds like you are not making full use of the warriors repertoire.
Oh, hahahahahahaahahahahaa!
I’m sorry, really? Really, really?
Your counter… is to deflect the subject by suggesting that the solution to a class being horribly sub-par in a role is to look at roles they might not be horribly sub-par in?
Oh, of course the solution to a weapon or set of weapons being insufficient is to use one that isn’t insufficient! Except it didn’t actually solve anything at all and you still have useless weapons to contend with.
Look, the whole point of my argument is that the game should have a reasonably decent build variety, that all weapons should have some use, and that all classes should be able to fill each role with some level of decency – otherwise, what the hell is the point of giving us free reign to create our own builds? What is the point of, say, having power/precision/crit damage as a possible trait path on a necro if they’re so terrible at direct damage? What is the point of having condition damage as a possible trait path on a warrior if they can’t apply conditions with any level of frequency? They become traps, something no high-level player would ever, ever want to even so much as touch with a ten-foot pole because they’re so obviously bad and sub-par.
They represent wasted development resources. No one uses them, why should they exist in the first place? Either buff them or take them out! It’s that simple. I don’t see what’s so difficult about this.
By the way, warriors are already considered one of the worst tPvP classes in the game, so you’re fighting an uphill battle there.
As for bunker builds, yes, I do think they should be unable to win 1v1s. They are already better at holding points than any other build. That is the whole point of point control. That is the whole point of the one and only game mode in the game. As long as they can hold points almost indefinitely AND win in 1v1 situations they are overpowered, period, end of story.
Not only are they overpowered, they represent an extreme in game design that should never have existed in the first place. They create incredibly stale and boring gameplay, the kind of gameplay that people would NOT want to watch in a stream over and over again. This is supposed to be an e-sport. E-sports HAVE to be fun to watch. The current meta is anything but fun to watch. IT MUST BE FIXED.
(edited by Zyrusticae.7245)
As a warrior playing a balanced build only made extremely long fights against bunkers that I would eventually lose simply because they keep healing to full while I can only heal a little amount, so over time I simply cannot outlast them in 1v1. You can’t expect to kill a bunker within a hammer CC chain in 1v1 even if you build for damage.
The only success I’ve had against bunkers as a warrior is a burst build. At least with a burst build I can kill bad bunkers 1v1 with lucky crits. No chance against a moderately good bunker though. Overall, bunker builds seem way too forgiving on player mistakes. They can use their heals or mitigation at the wrong time and might very well win anyway. And I don’t think it’s fair to say that these bunker builds should require 2v1 to be beaten.
This isn’t about burst-dps being able to instantly kill a bunker build. It’s about bunker builds holding out indefinitely vs any one other build and sometimes vs two other players. I really don’t see why you think bunker builds should be able to completely withstand anyone. That sounds a little biased…
Because as I said above if they cant withstand 1 person for a decent period of time then they are not needed, if they are not needed then condition damage is not needed, that only leaves burst for most efficient play. Burst implies large amounts of quick front loaded damage, for a burst to take out a bunker it would have to do so quickly with its “burst” What is not to get here? Honestly people who think you should beat a bunker with burst rather than sustained dps, or conditions seem biased towards those classes.
I used to be a bunker, but never agian. Being a bunker sucks and is quite boring at the moment. I am either babysitting a node twiddling my thumbs for most of the game, or I am facing 1 person who I just trade blows with until he gets bored and leaves, or I am steamrolled by a large group focusing fire and using conditions( which then your team rages that you couldnt handle 4 ppl for the two minutes).
None of that is fun for either team imo, nor is it fun to have to fill a role your profession is pigeonholed into. Like I said before bunkers should curb burst damage from instantly bursting everyone down, in a bunkers drops in one big burst then they are not needed. Please elaborate on how this new meta will evolve when burst is king? I have clearly stated how I think the meta does/should pan out, I would like someone to do the same
They definitely need work, sustained healing and condition removal need a serious lookover from the devs. Right now there are bunker builds that can hold indefinitely against condition and sustained damage builds, this is absurd. Bunkers should have to blow everything to counter a burst blowing everthing, this way burst curbed. Both sides should have to give it there all; this means that a burst can blow their wad and leave if the bunker doesnt make a mistake but if the bunker makes a mistake they die. If anything this system still favors burst.
No has argued burst should be able to walk on bunkers. It’s that bunkers can hold out vs almost any build indefinitely. I am on your side here. Bunkers as is are completely boring. They should be able to hold out on a point, but not forever. Even if 3-4 enemies dog pile on a bunker there’s a chance they won’t win because he will just hold out until teammates come…or just secure the other 2 points. It’s too strong and safe of a comp not to roll 1 or 2 bunkers in every team build. This is not ok for “dynamic gameplay”. I quit LoL to avoid this boring crap.
@Zyrusticae
Very well said!
http://www.pwnzerfaust.com/ – Dragonbrand
(edited by Sprinkles.6748)
I just came here to mention how utterly hilarious it is that people keep repeating the same arguments ad nauseum no matter how often they’re countered or shot down.
Also funny is how some folks completely invalidate their opinion by resorting to outrageous hyperbole (’don’t like it, go play an FPS or a single-player game!‘, because there’s no such thing as a middle ground).
If you had bothered to read my post I was using the comment that he should go to an fps as a jab at how easy he seemed to want enemy’s to fall down when he attacks them. Next time your going to try and distort someones post wait till they have left the thread bro.
Oh, hahahahahahaahahahahaa!
I’m sorry, really? Really, really?
Your counter… is to deflect the subject by suggesting that the solution to a class being horribly sub-par in a role is to look at roles they might not be horribly sub-par in?
Oh, of course the solution to a weapon or set of weapons being insufficient is to use one that isn’t insufficient! Except it didn’t actually solve anything at all and you still have useless weapons to contend with.
Look, the whole point of my argument is that the game should have a reasonably decent build variety, that all weapons should have some use, and that all classes should be able to fill each role with some level of decency – otherwise, what the hell is the point of giving us free reign to create our own builds? What is the point of, say, having power/precision/crit damage as a possible trait path on a necro if they’re so terrible at direct damage? What is the point of having condition damage as a possible trait path on a warrior if they can’t apply conditions with any level of frequency? They become traps, something no high-level player would ever, ever want to even so much as touch with a ten-foot pole because they’re so obviously bad and sub-par.
They represent wasted development resources. No one uses them, why should they exist in the first place? Either buff them or take them out! It’s that simple. I don’t see what’s so difficult about this.
By the way, warriors are already considered one of the worst tPvP classes in the game, so you’re fighting an uphill battle there.
As for bunker builds, yes, I do think they should be unable to win 1v1s. They are already better at holding points than any other build. That is the whole point of point control. That is the whole point of the one and only game mode in the game. As long as they can hold points almost indefinitely AND win in 1v1 situations they are overpowered, period, end of story.
Not only are they overpowered, they represent an extreme in game design that should never have existed in the first place. They create incredibly stale and boring gameplay, the kind of gameplay that people would NOT want to watch in a stream over and over again. This is supposed to be an e-sport. E-sports HAVE to be fun to watch. The current meta is anything but fun to watch. IT MUST BE FIXED.
Its true that there are many newb trap builds in this game. Warriors may indeed need to be worked on, however, despite that I still see warriors used viably in top tier teams. There are also other classes in much bigger need of work than warriors.
You seem to have a much different vision for warriors that I or anet does. You seem to want them to be like magic wielding blade dancing masters of doom who play tricks with boons and boon strips and whatnot and can do stuff other than direct damage with a rifle. On the other hand I and anet see them as bad kitten guys who have big kitten swords/hammers/axes/rifles and shoot or hit you in the face and focus more on direct damage than magical trickery.
If a class is focused on direct damage they will always have a hard time with any character that can put unlimited amounts of protection/ other boons on themselves. On the other hand if a teammate takes those boons off or if you catch an enemy w/out them on you can smash them. In other words the price you pay for the damage output/ tankyness you have is the ability to handle complex situations that require something other than “hit him in the face”.
I would guess from how you are talking that you never played gw1. In gw1 protection enchantments where so strong that you literraly had to just stop attacking them as a warrior and go hit someone else, otherwise you were just wasting a huge amount of your damage. A warrior could not just smash straight though the protection enchantments provided by a monk, you had to wait for an opening or make one by faking out the enemy and then exploit that opening. You seem to want to just smash faces like your the hulk and nothing on earth can stop you no matter how many boons or anything, and if for some reason boons should stop you then WTF you should have the power to just blow those boons away and keep smashing.
Honestly, this is ONE of the many ways you can play your team. It’s sure as hell the easiest imo but that doesnt mean it’s the most effective when both teams play very well.
Syngods for example play 1 pure support guardian, 2 roamers, pointdefendmesmer and necro. And we’ve beaten plenty of bunker teams over and over again (including the best ones)
Granted, I think the meta is quite abit about bunkering and that staff ele+caltrops combo on hedge/mine is horsekitten but that’s only because they’re so easy to play, not because they’re op.
Hell, in USA there are plenty of strong teams that build around having two offensive guardians rather than a mess of bunkers.
Crs Helseth, Mesmer for Team Curse
You seem to be dodging most of that being said and going straight to “warriors can’t handle everything”. Then taking said argument and completely exaggerating it to make everything about his post sound foolish. I really don’t approve of this strategy in an argument and it’s not going to help anyone but maybe…your ego?
I play warrior 90% of my pvp games and I do not think they are totally sub-par. The reason he is resorting to this argument, however, is because of contradictions made in older arguments. This thread is about bunker builds being too “meta” and wringing the game dry of fun and dynamic gameplay. If i build a warrior for offense and can be 100% countered by a single defense there is a problem. If I have to resort to doing certain things just to counter this 1 build type. If I have to always take bunker builds into consideration when making builds. There is a problem here.
Zyrusticae is resorting to saying “I can’t do everything as a warrior” because everyone in this thread is telling him to do everything as a warrior! You can’t expect one class to completely focus on countering bunkers AND be able to have a variety of builds. This is the problem with it. Bunkers counter almost everything too hard. They secure points indefinitely. That’s 1/5 members doing 1/3 of the job. Also, prepare for impact, it promotes non team-like behavior and strategies by having one guy bench a point all day. What communication does this bunker need with the outside world when he’s hunky dory on his one point. He doesn’t need help. If it’s at the point where he will need help ASAP or die and lose the point, his team is A capturing other points or B coming to wipe up the enemies currently smacking their heads into his big bunker brick wall. They will win this fight because of how much the offense had to blow just for a chance to down the bunker.
You cannot lose with this setup. There is no reason to not roll teams like this. That is not what we were promised with GW2 gameplay. That is why there is a problem!
P.S. GW1 is not GW2. I think this doesn’t really need to be argued. But I do have some evidence to back that one up if so needed. Like, I know how it is in that game and all. But, it’s pretty much completely irrelevant to the argument. This new game was made to change things. Heavily.
http://www.pwnzerfaust.com/ – Dragonbrand
(edited by Sprinkles.6748)
Zyrusticae is resorting to saying “I can’t do everything as a warrior” because everyone in this thread is telling him to do everything as a warrior!
Not sure if you’ve actually read the thread. Nobody is telling him that he should do everything as a warrior. Quite the opposite – people are telling him to avoid 1v1 fights with bunkers as a warrior because warriors lack the sustain and the condition pressure to win those fights solo.
Some other classes are in the same boat.
If he really wants to play warrior, then instead of crying about it he can realize that all classes are not built to be able to counter every single situation (true in every single non-sandbox MMO to date, including this one) and get somebody else on his team to run an appropriate bunker busting class/build. Then he, as a warrior, can fill a role that’s more appropriate to his class.
I know ArenaNet hyped this game with “every profession can fill every role” and blah blah blah, but the fact is that it was little more than exaggerated marketing. Even with build diversity, some professions are still going to suck at certain things more than others and warriors just happen to suck at 1v1’ing bunkers.
I honestly don’t see the problem.
Just an idea, rather than changing classes, change how nodes are controlled. Make it so that to capture a node you need to have more players in the node than the other team. If there are an equal number of players from both teams in the node then its control will slowly drift to neutral. Then you don’t have to beat a bunker or even knock them out of the node to remove their control, you just need to stand in the node. This in turn gives additional pressure on the other player to remove you from the node, most likely by killing you, and reduces the overall effectiveness of bunker builds. Likewise, if you have two people on your team vs. one bunker on the other, you will eventually gain control of the node regardless of whether you can kill the bunker or not.
The problem isn’t even that bunkers are hard to kill 1v1 or 2v1. The problem is that because of the short distance between points and especially the broken mesmer teleport,
it’s easy to get ppl to help the bunker before he dies and still get back to help another point if needed.
Zyrusticae is resorting to saying “I can’t do everything as a warrior” because everyone in this thread is telling him to do everything as a warrior!
Not sure if you’ve actually read the thread. Nobody is telling him that he should do everything as a warrior. Quite the opposite – people are telling him to avoid 1v1 fights with bunkers as a warrior because warriors lack the sustain and the condition pressure to win those fights solo.
Some other classes are in the same boat.
If he really wants to play warrior, then instead of crying about it he can realize that all classes are not built to be able to counter every single situation (true in every single non-sandbox MMO to date, including this one) and get somebody else on his team to run an appropriate bunker busting class/build. Then he, as a warrior, can fill a role that’s more appropriate to his class.
I know ArenaNet hyped this game with “every profession can fill every role” and blah blah blah, but the fact is that it was little more than exaggerated marketing. Even with build diversity, some professions are still going to suck at certain things more than others and warriors just happen to suck at 1v1’ing bunkers.
I honestly don’t see the problem.
They aren’t directly saying he should do everything as a warrior per se. However, he’s being lead to no choice. You think having these bunker builds and meta team comps is fine? That’s entirely your opinion. Thing is, I know that isn’t what’s meant to be. And I know things won’t stick like this. If they were to, I’d get tired of PvP in no time. The game probably won’t go very far “Esport” wise.
So, if all classes weren’t meant to be able to do certain things. Why are they giving us such freedom to make builds? Why don’t they just give us a choice between 3 different skill trees that are completely streamlined like some other MMO’s. These arguments for bunker builds and metas don’t make any sense to me. Would you honestly rather have it that way? If so, sorry to say but your playing the wrong game and might be sorely disappointed in the future.
http://www.pwnzerfaust.com/ – Dragonbrand
The problem isn’t even that bunkers are hard to kill 1v1 or 2v1. The problem is that because of the short distance between points and especially the broken mesmer teleport,
it’s easy to get ppl to help the bunker before he dies and still get back to help another point if needed.
Exactly. They hold out for too long to currently not role at least one or two in any team composition. I like building defense builds also. I want there to be strong defense. However, I want it to be hard to defend and hold the line. As it is, it’s much easier to be defensive rather than offensive. If offense was just able to be slowed, not completely deterred, we’d have much more interesting and dynamic game play.
Why do some people not want this? It must be an unfathomable thought to a lot of people. But I can see it there, just needs refinement.
http://www.pwnzerfaust.com/ – Dragonbrand
Anet, this is a great opportunity for you to come in and give us your thoughts and plans on these types of things.
I do understand you want to put out paid tournaments asap because most of the community wants something different in PvP, but don’t be reluctant to talk to your community about your vision for PvP.
If so, sorry to say but your playing the wrong game and might be sorely disappointed in the future.
I’m sorry, I can’t get over the absurdity of this comment considering the road map of this thread.
You realize that the person you’re defending said this -
ZyrusticaeGee, great.
Then I quit.
At least until warrior is either buffed or the meta changes, I don’t care which.
Right? That is the prime example of a person who’s probably playing the wrong game and is likely to be disappointed the instant a change is made that doesn’t fit with his/her vision of the way things should be.
Me? I’m playing the right game. I have my own complaints regarding bunkers, formats, ladders, downed state, map and mode variety, map sizes, portals and what they do to roamers, excessive visual noise, TTK, and other things. I believe some things need tweaks and others could use complete reworks. However, ultimately, I enjoy the game and I’ve dealt with all changes made to all classes since beta weekend #1.
Furthermore, I never made any arguments for bunkers. “Warriors aren’t good at 1v1’ing bunkers” isn’t a pro-bunker argument. Neither is “heavy bunker comps can still be taken down by more balanced comps”. Those are really the two main points I’ve made in this thread, just with a greater word count.
As for why we have the freedom to make builds if certain classes aren’t effective at certain things? Idk. You’ll have to ask ANet. I don’t work for them and I’m not a game designer. Warrior isn’t the only class that will never kill a bunker 1v1, but I guess it’s a good thing that killing bunkers isn’t necessary to neutralize the nodes they’re sitting on.
Also, there’s a reason why you can make a new character of any class and pvp with it instantly. There’s also a reason why most serious tourney teams will want you to be proficient with several classes. The answer to both is pretty simple – no matter what kind of build diversity is in the game, some classes will always be better at certain things than others. If they weren’t, you’d have a purely homogenized system which would be utterly unfun for everybody. I seriously doubt that this is ever going to change.
Zyrusticae is resorting to saying “I can’t do everything as a warrior” because everyone in this thread is telling him to do everything as a warrior!
Not sure if you’ve actually read the thread. Nobody is telling him that he should do everything as a warrior. Quite the opposite – people are telling him to avoid 1v1 fights with bunkers as a warrior because warriors lack the sustain and the condition pressure to win those fights solo.
Some other classes are in the same boat.
If he really wants to play warrior, then instead of crying about it he can realize that all classes are not built to be able to counter every single situation (true in every single non-sandbox MMO to date, including this one) and get somebody else on his team to run an appropriate bunker busting class/build. Then he, as a warrior, can fill a role that’s more appropriate to his class.
I know ArenaNet hyped this game with “every profession can fill every role” and blah blah blah, but the fact is that it was little more than exaggerated marketing. Even with build diversity, some professions are still going to suck at certain things more than others and warriors just happen to suck at 1v1’ing bunkers.
I honestly don’t see the problem.
Man, it’s like you didn’t even read my posts.
Again, the fact that warriors can’t 1v1 bunkers is just a symptom of other issues with the class. By the very nature of balance in a game like this, a class that can’t 1v1 bunkers is unlikely to be able to fill any other role with any level of efficiency. (And it’s true – for every role in a tPvP team, some other class fills it better, hence our bottom-tier tPvP status.)
And for the record, I support boosting those other classes, too! Either that or making the obviously out-of-whack bunker builds (come on, only two classes are really out there in terms of bunkeriness) more in-line with everyone else’s bunker builds. Just think about that for a second – what’s better, buffing everyone else to compensate, or just nerfing the obvious problem areas?
By the very nature of balance in a game like this, a class that can’t 1v1 bunkers is unlikely to be able to fill any other role with any level of efficiency. (And it’s true – for every role in a tPvP team, some other class fills it better, hence our bottom-tier tPvP status.)
What? Ele’s won’t ever kill a solid bunker player 1v1 either regardless of build, but they’re extremely strong otherwise (both as bunkers and balanced roamers/team fighters) and most teams run one.
As for warriors – I guess you can tell that to teams like TP EU, PZ, and ALFA (who are as close to top tier as you can get with the current ladder-less infrastructure), who afaik all run warriors in their main lineups. Win used to run a warrior as well, I dunno if they still do.
What? Ele’s won’t ever kill a solid bunker player 1v1 either regardless of build, but they’re extremely strong otherwise (both as bunkers and balanced roamers/team fighters) and most teams run one.
Actually, elementalists will rarely die to a bunker 1v1, while warriors can and will.
The same healing that makes elementalists such great bunkers is obviously what makes them better in a balanced role. Warriors have no such advantage (in any area).
As for warriors – I guess you can tell that to teams like TP EU, PZ, and ALFA (who are as close to top tier as you can get with the current ladder-less infrastructure), who afaik all run warriors in their main lineups. Win used to run a warrior as well, I dunno if they still do.
That’s three, maybe four, teams out of how many?
Even a cursory glance at ALFA’s matches shows me they run other classes more frequently. Just running the class, for that matter, doesn’t tell me whether or not they think very highly of it (especially since we only have free tournaments atm).
Also, I had to lol at the highlight of a warrior bull rushing an unaware player to frenzy+100b them. High-level play, indeed!
Actually, elementalists will rarely die to a bunker 1v1, while warriors can and will.
That’s true but completely beside the point. If you go 1v1 a bunker, you better be able to pressure him hard enough to force support. Neither an ele nor a warrior are likely to make that happen, so they’re both effectively and equally useless at 1v1’ing bunkers – but that hardly makes either class useless in other roles.
That’s three, maybe four, teams out of how many?
Same argument can go both ways. I obviously haven’t seen every single team within the GW2 community, but neither have you. So, neither of us has access to that kind of global data.
However, we do have access to streams and there is a loose community of teams that regularly sync queue tourneys together so as to get some real competition instead of rolling pugs all day. We know that at least some portion of these teams (with players generally recognized by the tourney community) run warriors, so warriors probably aren’t completely useless.
Idk. Thieves used to be useless too before some guy named Lowell came around, then all of a sudden thieves were… no longer useless. According to forums, non-bunker elementalists have been useless for a fairly long time, when in fact they’ve always been pretty strong.
Ultimately, all professions are viable and useful when placed in an appropriate comp.
You seem to be dodging most of that being said and going straight to “warriors can’t handle everything”. Then taking said argument and completely exaggerating it to make everything about his post sound foolish. I really don’t approve of this strategy in an argument and it’s not going to help anyone but maybe…your ego?
I play warrior 90% of my pvp games and I do not think they are totally sub-par. The reason he is resorting to this argument, however, is because of contradictions made in older arguments. This thread is about bunker builds being too “meta” and wringing the game dry of fun and dynamic gameplay. If i build a warrior for offense and can be 100% countered by a single defense there is a problem. If I have to resort to doing certain things just to counter this 1 build type. If I have to always take bunker builds into consideration when making builds. There is a problem here.
Zyrusticae is resorting to saying “I can’t do everything as a warrior” because everyone in this thread is telling him to do everything as a warrior! You can’t expect one class to completely focus on countering bunkers AND be able to have a variety of builds. This is the problem with it. Bunkers counter almost everything too hard. They secure points indefinitely. That’s 1/5 members doing 1/3 of the job. Also, prepare for impact, it promotes non team-like behavior and strategies by having one guy bench a point all day. What communication does this bunker need with the outside world when he’s hunky dory on his one point. He doesn’t need help. If it’s at the point where he will need help ASAP or die and lose the point, his team is A capturing other points or B coming to wipe up the enemies currently smacking their heads into his big bunker brick wall. They will win this fight because of how much the offense had to blow just for a chance to down the bunker.
You cannot lose with this setup. There is no reason to not roll teams like this. That is not what we were promised with GW2 gameplay. That is why there is a problem!
P.S. GW1 is not GW2. I think this doesn’t really need to be argued. But I do have some evidence to back that one up if so needed. Like, I know how it is in that game and all. But, it’s pretty much completely irrelevant to the argument. This new game was made to change things. Heavily.
This is honestly a problem with the game type mode, not with bunkers themselves. The game type promotes a game style where very tanky characters just sit on points w/out really trying to kill anyone but are very hard to kill themselves. The problem with nurfing bunkers so that just anyone can kill them is that it will not change the problem of that game type, it will just shift the point holding to another class and will simultaneously destroy the point of playing a defensive class. It will just turn the game into a dueling contest and then the class that can hold points the longest will be the best dueling class. Then people will be on here complaining about that.
I don’t really see a problem with a class that is good at tanking holding a point in a capture style game play. This thread started with a “The meta is bad it must be changed” theme. I disagree with that very theme at its core. Why does it need to be changed? Its not unbalanced, both sides have the same numbers of players and the same opportunity to bring each class. Why shouldn’t a guardian shine in a game mode that caters too him. When they finally come out with other game modes there may be a game mode that caters to another class. And if you are unhappy about a classes performance in a specific game mode the answer is not to nurf that class into uselessness.
Just an idea, rather than changing classes, change how nodes are controlled. Make it so that to capture a node you need to have more players in the node than the other team. If there are an equal number of players from both teams in the node then its control will slowly drift to neutral. Then you don’t have to beat a bunker or even knock them out of the node to remove their control, you just need to stand in the node. This in turn gives additional pressure on the other player to remove you from the node, most likely by killing you, and reduces the overall effectiveness of bunker builds. Likewise, if you have two people on your team vs. one bunker on the other, you will eventually gain control of the node regardless of whether you can kill the bunker or not.
I do not necessarily agree or disagree with this idea but this is what I am talking about, instead of crushing defensive classes into worthless piles of trash its a much better idea to change the game play so that it does not favor them so much.
The problem isn’t even that bunkers are hard to kill 1v1 or 2v1. The problem is that because of the short distance between points and especially the broken mesmer teleport,
it’s easy to get ppl to help the bunker before he dies and still get back to help another point if needed.
Yes, and the speed at which you would have to kill the bunker to prevent this would be absurdly fast, especially against a defensive class.
@Parakeet
So, essentially, everybody is forced to bring along a Guardian, as if we’re talking about bringing a healer to a dungeon.
Out of the 8 possible classes, a variation of balanced, CC, burst, or condition builds, and only 5 people, everybody should make sure to bring along at least 2 Guardians (or bunkers) to help hold down your natural and mid, thus funneling out at least 40% of your possible team composition and variety.
I blame the game type too. But do bunkers really have to be so effective at what they do? Why do your opponents have to get punished if they don’t have any bunkers in their team composition?
Some people have mentioned that “If you nerf bunkers, all you’ll have left are burst builds to compete against each other.”
I politely disagree.
I believe, that if bunkers were not so effective, you would see a larger variety of team compositions and a better chance for those compositions to shine rather than having the standard 2+ bunkers.
When is your next video debut Merciless? Your fans are waiting…
@Seether
I need a couple of days. I’ve actually been playing some War Z.
Sniper Rifles = OP. :P
If so, sorry to say but your playing the wrong game and might be sorely disappointed in the future.
I’m sorry, I can’t get over the absurdity of this comment considering the road map of this thread.
You realize that the person you’re defending said this -
ZyrusticaeGee, great.
Then I quit.
At least until warrior is either buffed or the meta changes, I don’t care which.
Right? That is the prime example of a person who’s probably playing the wrong game and is likely to be disappointed the instant a change is made that doesn’t fit with his/her vision of the way things should be.
Me? I’m playing the right game. I have my own complaints regarding bunkers, formats, ladders, downed state, map and mode variety, map sizes, portals and what they do to roamers, excessive visual noise, TTK, and other things. I believe some things need tweaks and others could use complete reworks. However, ultimately, I enjoy the game and I’ve dealt with all changes made to all classes since beta weekend #1.
It may sound ridiculous, because that’s just honestly my faith in the further development in the game talking. And yes, I do have reasons to believe we will see these changes in the future. Why else would they be giving us all this fluff about dynamic, balanced pvp combat and it’s just starting out blah blah.
If things were really to stick to a meta like this. Fine, but I’ll probably not be around for too long. And I don’t know how people think the game is better off with stuff like this than possibly without.
http://www.pwnzerfaust.com/ – Dragonbrand
@Kalar Meadia
A bunker who is only prolonging the fight until his roamer teammate arrives speaks volumes about how bunkers are just plain very effective at staying alive.
Again, do we know that this is intended? No.
Is my personal opinion that they need to be toned down in order for an opponent to have a better chance? Yes.
What is the actual drawback to a player playing as bunker that can survive long enough until his team mates arrive? Nothing. It’s too effective as it is. Sorry.
There is no drawback to having a bunker sit on a point in a competitive game, other than sheer boredom for said bunker. All he has to do is survive long until his teammates come to help. That’s it. That’s all they’re there for. So in your opinion, you may consider this “GOOD” gameplay", but to me it sounds like a PvE version of a mini boss or something. It’s just plain ridiculous.
When you consiter that capturing and holding points is the entire focus of the entire game, no, it isn’t at all.
Additionally, you’re forgetting that killing the enemy is not the focus of the agenda bunker or no. Getting the enemy off the point long enough to neturalize and eventually capture the objective is.
Now I’m going to turn the question back at you for a moment. What is ridiculous about a gameplay mechanic that forces team fights over ganking/back-capping points?
One encourages more team play, the other encourages passive or zerg-like play, which is HIGHLY evidenced in how 8v8 hotjoin currently works. No bunker can hold a point long enough for reinforcements in an 8 v 8, therefore there’s no point in defending vs counter-capping. It becomes a meta ruled by zergs and roamers.
A bunker gives time for reinforcements. Meaning that when assaulting a point, you have to prepare for a team-fight. This means you have a long term gameplan on how you’re going to cap or null the point. (This can mean pulling the bunker off point and chain CCing in stages rather than focusing on burst-killing them. This can also mean planning an ambush of his reinforcements.)
Again, you say that they bunker too well? Why is that? You claim it’s the effectivness of the bunker’s survivalbility. I state that there’s little to no penalty for those who run glass cannon/high mobility builds to simply, go in, blow cooldowns, die, return in a matter of a few seconds (Likely cycling another reinforcement) to simply blow those high burst cooldowns again.
Also, when the bunker DOES die, it’s simply a matter of having enough people cycling back to the point until the bunker can return, which isn’t long at all.
AoE and condition improvements should do enough to tone down the bunker’s effectiveness as we have builds that are still not up to par. There’s no need to nerf bunkers directly in this sense.
But there does need to be a larger penalty for death so when you do defeat a bunker, he’s out of commission for a while. Same goes for his assistance. This will also give burst their higher risk/reward system they should be accustomed to, as right now, they die and are back just in time for their cooldowns anyways. Sustained DPS or ‘middle of the road’ classes are suffering because of it.
This will balance out the Meta and effectiveness far more than simply saying “It’s the Bunker’s fault.”