Guild Wars 2

Regardless if this is an exploit or not. But to achieve such a amount of stealth does nothing for yourself and or the game in general. It’s simply not fun to watch “in regards to pvp”, sure it funny but stuff like this isn’t really promoting a fun pvp experience. One of the many reasons why people don’t like watching guild wars 2.

Trigr.6481:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz9p5ekQlvU

Regardless if this is an exploit or not. But to achieve such a amount of stealth does nothing for yourself and or the game in general. It’s simply not fun to watch “in regards to pvp”, sure it funny but stuff like this isn’t really promoting a fun pvp experience. One of the many reasons why people don’t like watching guild wars 2.

GJ standing in his aoe. You sure showed him.

Geewoody.2017:

Trigr.6481:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz9p5ekQlvU

Regardless if this is an exploit or not. But to achieve such a amount of stealth does nothing for yourself and or the game in general. It’s simply not fun to watch “in regards to pvp”, sure it funny but stuff like this isn’t really promoting a fun pvp experience. One of the many reasons why people don’t like watching guild wars 2.

GJ standing in his aoe. You sure showed him.

Well his damage wasn’t really a concern. So sure I’ll stand in it all day, he had me really worried……….lol. Thank you for your mindless troll comment friend

It isn’t an exploit, it’s simple game mechanics. You can tell when he uses Cloak & Dagger to stealth, you can tell when he uses his heal to stealth, you can see the Shadow Refuge.

Of course, there are things you can do about it. You can time your dodge such that he misses his C&D after a few seconds (though with a Phantasm out, it’s guaranteed if he wants it). That’ll force him to use one of his other stealth mechanics to disappear. You can keep dropping the AoE. He isn’t capping the point or endangering it in any way, so it isn’t having a negative impact, really.

But you already know those things. I’m only listing them because some other guy who doesn’t get the point is going to try to bring them up.

The point is that Stealth is a poorly designed mechanic, and there’s absolutely no punishment while being in stealth. It isn’t fun to go up against something like this beyond laughing at it once or twice, and personally, it seems like a very unhealthy mechanic to not fix in some fashion moving forward.

I’m of the opinion any direct damage received while stealthed should break it instantly, because I have no sympathy for people who have to crutch on disappearing anywhere at any time to get away.

However, other good ideas (such as showing a visual on the thief when he does get hit, for .5 seconds or 1 second, as a sign you did something productive) have been tossed around as well.

It really isn’t about imbalance, it’s just about design that isn’t fun.

Cogbyrn.7283:

It isn’t an exploit, it’s simple game mechanics. You can tell when he uses Cloak & Dagger to stealth, you can tell when he uses his heal to stealth, you can see the Shadow Refuge.

Of course, there are things you can do about it. You can time your dodge such that he misses his C&D after a few seconds (though with a Phantasm out, it’s guaranteed if he wants it). That’ll force him to use one of his other stealth mechanics to disappear. You can keep dropping the AoE. He isn’t capping the point or endangering it in any way, so it isn’t having a negative impact, really.

But you already know those things. I’m only listing them because some other guy who doesn’t get the point is going to try to bring them up.

The point is that Stealth is a poorly designed mechanic, and there’s absolutely no punishment while being in stealth. It isn’t fun to go up against something like this beyond laughing at it once or twice, and personally, it seems like a very unhealthy mechanic to not fix in some fashion moving forward.

I’m of the opinion any direct damage received while stealthed should break it instantly, because I have no sympathy for people who have to crutch on disappearing anywhere at any time to get away.

However, other good ideas (such as showing a visual on the thief when he does get hit, for .5 seconds or 1 second, as a sign you did something productive) have been tossed around as well.

It really isn’t about imbalance, it’s just about design that isn’t fun.

This thief was either doing that to troll or was just learning how stealth works. If he was good and had wanted to he could have killed them at any point or at least been doing some damage.

Hey I’m famous! xD
I was bored in PVP, so I decided to test a new build. This one on the video is an incomplete version (didn’t have condition damage and healing) I’ve finished today. Current build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAsYVlUmyOXeS6E+5EB3Dma0m6p4rotTBWtKA;ToAg2Cro8xAjAG7MOfkzMCYuA

I’ve made it for sPVP and I got say it’s pretty decent to troll and have fun (interrupt + bleeding)
Btw, use C&D to go invi, but don’t break stealth. Just wait until C&D is over, and use it again and again (you can time it 0.5 seconds before it ends, so you don’t get revealed debuff).
But that’s it. I don’t really run it most of the time. I use this instead:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAqYVlUmaPHfS6E+5EB3Dm60m6p4rjtTBX1KA;ToAg2Croay0koJbTumkNNCYuA

Asomal.6453:

Hey I’m famous! xD
I was bored in PVP, so I decided to test a new build. This one on the video is an incomplete version (didn’t have condition damage and healing) I’ve finished today. Current build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAsYVlUmyOXeS6E+5EB3Dma0m6p4rotTBWtKA;ToAg2Cro8xAjAG7MOfkzMCYuA

I’ve made it for sPVP and I got say it’s pretty decent to troll and have fun (interrupt + bleeding)
Btw, use C&D to go invi, but don’t break stealth. Just wait until C&D is over, and use it again and again (you can time it 0.5 seconds before it ends, so you don’t get revealed debuff).
But that’s it. I don’t really run it most of the time. I use this instead:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAqYVlUmaPHfS6E+5EB3Dm60m6p4rjtTBX1KA;ToAg2Croay0koJbTumkNNCYuA

I think being able to avoid the reveal debuff is already a broken mechanic, that was hilarious doe

your video is great and imma let u finish, but thieves are one of the lowest hp classes of all time. …of all time! they get killed easily so they need invis for survivability. Thieves got nerfed every patch, jonpeters doesnt care about thief people.

i see the tons of damage that thief is doing to you. and ofc the point is capped by you since stealth doesnt block you from capping.
so no damage+ no capping block = serious issue too op

And again someone who does not realize that you still do dmg to a stealthed thief if you just use AE or your #1 skill. ….

It’s these players who come to the thief forum all day and QQ about perma stealth … another proof that it’s always a L2P issue, thanks for the evidence dude.

Trigr.6481:

Well his damage wasn’t really a concern. So sure I’ll stand in it all day, he had me really worried……….lol. Thank you for your mindless troll comment friend

Seems like this problem solves itself. Thanks for the pointless post.

Stealth is a problem in every game..till wards come out or other ways to reveal the stealth.then the stealth dudes become extremely weak.I dont think that anyone can balance stealth

lvis.3824:

And again someone who does not realize that you still do dmg to a stealthed thief if you just use AE or your #1 skill. ….

It’s these players who come to the thief forum all day and QQ about perma stealth … another proof that it’s always a L2P issue, thanks for the evidence dude.

Lol, I love reading posts from desperate Thieves who are scared stiff they will get nerfed

Crutch classes are for bad players

Zantetsuken.9051:

lvis.3824:

And again someone who does not realize that you still do dmg to a stealthed thief if you just use AE or your #1 skill. ….

It’s these players who come to the thief forum all day and QQ about perma stealth … another proof that it’s always a L2P issue, thanks for the evidence dude.

Lol, I love reading posts from desperate Thieves who are scared stiff they will get nerfed

Crutch classes are for bad players

i find difficult to find the disperation in this thief’s words. i am a thief and i dare anet to not nerf thief, as other burst builds, so we can have a nice game with all balanced build in which only spike (focus) count on kills.

Shukran.4851:

Zantetsuken.9051:

lvis.3824:

And again someone who does not realize that you still do dmg to a stealthed thief if you just use AE or your #1 skill. ….

It’s these players who come to the thief forum all day and QQ about perma stealth … another proof that it’s always a L2P issue, thanks for the evidence dude.

Lol, I love reading posts from desperate Thieves who are scared stiff they will get nerfed

Crutch classes are for bad players

i find difficult to find the disperation in this thief’s words. i am a thief and i dare anet to not nerf thief, as other burst builds, so we can have a nice game with all balanced build in which only spike (focus) count on kills.

Hang on, you dare ArenaNet not to nerf Thieves because you want a balanced game where focus firing is the way to kill players? Even though a Thief can spike a 3.2k armour bunker build from 100% to 0 without any assistance from other players? Having that kind of burst and stealth is the reason so many bad players flocked to Thief. Because the mechanics of the game compensate for the lack of skill these players have.

The good news is, you won’t need to level the next flavour-of-the-month profession when you abandon your Thief after stealth gets a severe nerf. The burst will be toned down (and bunker healing as well) but stealth is the real problem with Thieves, and it will be gutted for all non-stealth builds. ArenaNet will lose too many casual players if they don’t.

Zantetsuken.9051:

Shukran.4851:

Zantetsuken.9051:

lvis.3824:

And again someone who does not realize that you still do dmg to a stealthed thief if you just use AE or your #1 skill. ….

It’s these players who come to the thief forum all day and QQ about perma stealth … another proof that it’s always a L2P issue, thanks for the evidence dude.

Lol, I love reading posts from desperate Thieves who are scared stiff they will get nerfed

Crutch classes are for bad players

i find difficult to find the disperation in this thief’s words. i am a thief and i dare anet to not nerf thief, as other burst builds, so we can have a nice game with all balanced build in which only spike (focus) count on kills.

Hang on, you dare ArenaNet not to nerf Thieves because you want a balanced game where focus firing is the way to kill players? Even though a Thief can spike a 3.2k armour bunker build from 100% to 0 without any assistance from other players? Having that kind of burst and stealth is the reason so many bad players flocked to Thief. Because the mechanics of the game compensate for the lack of skill these players have.

The good news is, you won’t need to level the next flavour-of-the-month profession when you abandon your Thief after stealth gets a severe nerf. The burst will be toned down (and bunker healing as well) but stealth is the real problem with Thieves, and it will be gutted for all non-stealth builds. ArenaNet will lose too many casual players if they don’t.

fun fact: you can be skilled as much as you want, just play thief and everyone will think “mechanics compensate lack of skill” you have. it is never outplay.

true fact: i rolled thief 25th of august, before that date i played mesmer. there are other players outside that didnt choose thief because of “op class”. there will be a lot of players who will stick to thief even if nerfed to ground.

silly fact: 99% of HSspam players are noobs who rolled thief to try to faceroll in spvp. they have no clue of tpvp.

tl;dr: i don’t defend thief, i try to defend the “pvp”. as long as nerfs/fixes make it good, they can nerf thief tons of times.

Take a look at his build. 0 Stealthing utilities. How does he stealth so often? He CnD’s, waits 3 seconds, and CnD’s again.

1. Wait three seconds.
2. Dodge the CnD. Done.

Or if you are s/f & GS, wait for 2 seconds after last C&D, drop a curtain near you, pop it, see thief un-stealthed on his ars, root/bf/shatter. He freaks out and refuges swap knock him out and kill him. So hard. Or are you going to be another one of those “I should’t have to change my weapons or spec to beat every build in this game” types?

Check it out, Thieves posting generic defense of the Stealth mechanic, as predicted. I pray for the day that stealth receives a slight rework that requires a modicum of intelligence to use.

Jericho.4521:

Take a look at his build. 0 Stealthing utilities. How does he stealth so often? He CnD’s, waits 3 seconds, and CnD’s again.

1. Wait three seconds.
2. Dodge the CnD. Done.

Clones also instruct dodge?
Caltrops need to add small direct damage and fix double damage bug.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Check it out, Thieves posting generic defense of the Stealth mechanic, as predicted. I pray for the day that stealth receives a slight rework that requires a modicum of intelligence to use.

If you mean specific to his profession and situations and one that would have worked then yea. But you can stay on the QQtrain instead of learning. There is plenty of room for you.

great exAmple of broken culling and stealth mechanic

Stiv.1820:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Check it out, Thieves posting generic defense of the Stealth mechanic, as predicted. I pray for the day that stealth receives a slight rework that requires a modicum of intelligence to use.

If you mean specific to his profession and situations and one that would have worked then yea. But you can stay on the QQtrain instead of learning. There is plenty of room for you.

I’ve already learned. This isn’t about balance, it’s about fun. I personally enjoy fighting every class in the game except Thieves, even though most of them die horribly. I want to appreciate an enemy Thief with the knowledge that Stealth isn’t just a free escape mechanic that can be spammed. I want there to be counterplay that isn’t “spam AoE and pray” or “spam your 1 and hope the Thief just runs in front of you the whole time” (note: I can’t believe this is used as a defense for anything).

I want Thieves to have to play smart. Perhaps newer players won’t find such ridiculous frustration combating a Thief, to the point where the game doesn’t retain enough players. Sure, there are all sorts of L2P issues in this game, but even after you learn how to fight Thieves, they still aren’t fun to fight.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I want Thieves to have to play smart.

usual QQ thief burst stats:

14k hp
1.9k armor
3.2k attack

change some of the stats and the others will suffer. enjoy smartness

Cogbyrn.7283:

Stiv.1820:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Check it out, Thieves posting generic defense of the Stealth mechanic, as predicted. I pray for the day that stealth receives a slight rework that requires a modicum of intelligence to use.

If you mean specific to his profession and situations and one that would have worked then yea. But you can stay on the QQtrain instead of learning. There is plenty of room for you.

I’ve already learned. This isn’t about balance, it’s about fun. I personally enjoy fighting every class in the game except Thieves, even though most of them die horribly. I want to appreciate an enemy Thief with the knowledge that Stealth isn’t just a free escape mechanic that can be spammed. I want there to be counterplay that isn’t “spam AoE and pray” or “spam your 1 and hope the Thief just runs in front of you the whole time” (note: I can’t believe this is used as a defense for anything).

I want Thieves to have to play smart. Perhaps newer players won’t find such ridiculous frustration combating a Thief, to the point where the game doesn’t retain enough players. Sure, there are all sorts of L2P issues in this game, but even after you learn how to fight Thieves, they still aren’t fun to fight.

A new player is going to get rolled by every profession. I can’t see balancing around new players. New players should understand they are new and have a lot of catching up to do.

I personally enjoy fighting thieves specially because I like to kill them in stealth. Nothing gives me greater satisfaction than a dead thief after a refuge. Maybe it’s because most of them think it’s a get out of jail free and don’t expect to die.

I enjoy stomping burst thieves after avoiding their opener. I enjoy dodging steathspam spec’s C&D and watching them frantically blow utilities until they die. What’s not to enjoy?

What class are you, Stiv? Please don’t say D/D Elementalist.

It isn’t about balancing specifically for new players, but it’s about providing some semblance of risk/reward with game mechanics. If it was as simple as the Thief visibly shimmering upon receiving direct damage while in stealth, that’s enough for a new player to have something to aim for. Otherwise, they’re playing a guessing game, and I would wager that’s irritating and discouraging for many players.

I could be wrong. Maybe people love throwing abilities out in hopes they land, without knowing whether they’ve landed or not.

Zantetsuken.9051:

lvis.3824:

And again someone who does not realize that you still do dmg to a stealthed thief if you just use AE or your #1 skill. ….

It’s these players who come to the thief forum all day and QQ about perma stealth … another proof that it’s always a L2P issue, thanks for the evidence dude.

Lol, I love reading posts from desperate Thieves who are scared stiff they will get nerfed

Crutch classes are for bad players

You do realize that the only thing that could possibly get fixed is the culling issue :I and an extra second on the revealed debuff right?

BTW, why were you and the ele standing still?

Cogbyrn.7283:

What class are you, Stiv? Please don’t say D/D Elementalist.

It isn’t about balancing specifically for new players, but it’s about providing some semblance of risk/reward with game mechanics. If it was as simple as the Thief visibly shimmering upon receiving direct damage while in stealth, that’s enough for a new player to have something to aim for. Otherwise, they’re playing a guessing game, and I would wager that’s irritating and discouraging for many players.

I could be wrong. Maybe people love throwing abilities out in hopes they land, without knowing whether they’ve landed or not.

Or …they could not stand still, time a dodge and cripple?

D/D ele has many ways to counter this (and whats wrong with ele’s :O)
Same as mesmer
(Soon to find out if the ranger can)

My only point was that D/D Ele has all of the tools in the world, and their survivability can be kingly, so a lot of the frustration other classes might feel can be diminished because of what D/D Eles have available.

This is a thread about Stealth/Thieves, so I won’t get into D/D Eles. I only have a slight problem with them, really.

And yes, I understand it’s a team game. However, does that mean it absolutely has to make individual encounters like this so irritating in order to achieve team balance? Is it mandatory that a class require more than one enemy to kill a requirement for a team-oriented game?

Is this low standard something we’re OK with?

Cogbyrn.7283:

What class are you, Stiv? Please don’t say D/D Elementalist.

It isn’t about balancing specifically for new players, but it’s about providing some semblance of risk/reward with game mechanics. If it was as simple as the Thief visibly shimmering upon receiving direct damage while in stealth, that’s enough for a new player to have something to aim for. Otherwise, they’re playing a guessing game, and I would wager that’s irritating and discouraging for many players.

I could be wrong. Maybe people love throwing abilities out in hopes they land, without knowing whether they’ve landed or not.

Thief main. Used to play P/D now switch between D/P and S/D. I also play Mesmer and yes D/D ele but they are just for learning the professions more than anything. I just really enjoy stomping on my old play-style. S/D in particular is a hard counter to P/D.

Again, I’m fine with new players having to learn how to deal with Stealth, but I’m also a strong advocate of good counterplay mechanics. I roll Warrior, and there’s the ability to counterplay Warrior mechanics in basically all forms. If Stealth provided some sort of reward for landing a hit against a stealthed opponent beyond blindly hoping for damage, that’s really all I want. That way, when a Thief totally jukes me and outmaneuvers me, it’s because I anticipated poorly and not because I had no really good way to know whether or not I was hitting in the first place.

No dodging? Standing in caltrops? Instead, complaining and saying “enjoy ur ban”? Last time I checked those don’t counter much of anything except credibility.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Again, I’m fine with new players having to learn how to deal with Stealth, but I’m also a strong advocate of good counterplay mechanics. I roll Warrior, and there’s the ability to counterplay Warrior mechanics in basically all forms. If Stealth provided some sort of reward for landing a hit against a stealthed opponent beyond blindly hoping for damage, that’s really all I want. That way, when a Thief totally jukes me and outmaneuvers me, it’s because I anticipated poorly and not because I had no really good way to know whether or not I was hitting in the first place.

I don’t play Warrior so I’m not sure but when I’m hit by GS Whirling attack (#3 I think?) I hear the clanging of it kicking my kitten Do you not hear that on your end? I’d be fine with an indication of a hit tbh with sound or whatever. As long as it’s not directly visual since that would ruin the entire point of a positioning advantage with stealth since it gives no other protection. I know for sure you can tell if they evade your attacks as it shows the evade text.

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

I don’t understand how a visual cue from a hit would ruin the “entire point of a positioning advantage”. If you stealth right in my face, and I dive on top of the area with an Earthshaker, why shouldn’t I be rewarded with a quick reaction to an ill-used Stealth? I don’t understand why Stealth has to be an instant advantage no matter where or when it’s used.

Thieves have incredible mobility already with various shadow-steps and what-have-you. They can also blind in an AoE upon stealthing, providing key coverage against a melee Warrior like me already to gain distance from the time of stealth to when I can break the blind.

Do Thieves not have the tools to use mobility and stealth in conjunction for survival? Wouldn’t a good Thief be able to use these tools to still be good? Wouldn’t it give bad Thieves something to strive for, or at least punishment for using a Stealth ability unwisely?

If a good, rewarding Stealth mechanic breaks their viability, perhaps there are other issues that’ll need to be address for proper balance. It may never come to pass due to time restrictions and the effort required to put forth a strong redesign, but I like to think in terms of an ideal scenario instead of settling for less.

At least, when discussing on the forums. I’ll continue to deal with it in-game.

EDIT – @Delofakitten: My inner Hammer warrior wept at you saying Blind/Cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP. I get your point, and for large part it’s accurate across most classes, but.

Delofakitten.4231:

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

He looks like a pretty terrible player to me, he just complained and he has no idea what his enemies doing. “Lol enjoy your ban!”. When any good player knows exactly what CnD is.

He wasn’t dodging, he wasn’t doing anything but letting the thief HIT him over and over, he wasn’t aggressive, in fact hes a joke as a player, because he ran into something he couldn’t beat and gave up.

I hope I never have him on my team.

It might as well have been 2 vs 1, because he was helping the enemy by being bad more so then helping his team, thieves feed on bads the more bads you have on your team, the stronger the thief is.

lol hell yeah, this is why I love gw2, it’s just ridiculous fun!!! cough, cough… in that situation it would be fun if you had Moa saved up when he dagger stormed you

Daecollo.9578:

Delofakitten.4231:

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

He looks like a pretty terrible player to me, he just complained and he has no idea what his enemies doing. “Lol enjoy your ban!”. When any good player knows exactly what CnD is.

He wasn’t dodging, he wasn’t doing anything but letting the thief HIT him over and over, he wasn’t aggressive, in fact hes a joke as a player, because he ran into something he couldn’t beat and gave up.

I hope I never have him on my team.

It might as well have been 2 vs 1, because he was helping the enemy by being bad more so then helping his team, thieves feed on bads the more bads you have on your team, the stronger the thief is.

slow down bro. he’s didnt lose, he wasnt being aggressive on purpose, he was showing how dumb it is that a thief can maintain that much stealth uptime.

heres a quote in case you missed it from the thief in the vid:

“you can time it 0.5 seconds before it ends, so you don’t get revealed debuff. "

bad culling + working around the revealed debuff = broken mechanic

Sprawl.3891:

Daecollo.9578:

Delofakitten.4231:

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

He looks like a pretty terrible player to me, he just complained and he has no idea what his enemies doing. “Lol enjoy your ban!”. When any good player knows exactly what CnD is.

He wasn’t dodging, he wasn’t doing anything but letting the thief HIT him over and over, he wasn’t aggressive, in fact hes a joke as a player, because he ran into something he couldn’t beat and gave up.

I hope I never have him on my team.

It might as well have been 2 vs 1, because he was helping the enemy by being bad more so then helping his team, thieves feed on bads the more bads you have on your team, the stronger the thief is.

slow down bro. he’s didnt lose, he wasnt being aggressive on purpose, he was showing how dumb it is that a thief can maintain that much stealth uptime. The mechanic is clearly broken that what is shown in the video is even possible thanks to horrible culling and re-stealth-ability

The Thief can’t do that if you prevent CnD…

YOU need to prevent CnD, its a VERY low range melee attack, it happens every 4-5 seconds, its VERY easy to prevent, DON’T let it hit you and you win.

Daecollo.9578:

Sprawl.3891:

Daecollo.9578:

Delofakitten.4231:

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

He looks like a pretty terrible player to me, he just complained and he has no idea what his enemies doing. “Lol enjoy your ban!”. When any good player knows exactly what CnD is.

He wasn’t dodging, he wasn’t doing anything but letting the thief HIT him over and over, he wasn’t aggressive, in fact hes a joke as a player, because he ran into something he couldn’t beat and gave up.

I hope I never have him on my team.

It might as well have been 2 vs 1, because he was helping the enemy by being bad more so then helping his team, thieves feed on bads the more bads you have on your team, the stronger the thief is.

slow down bro. he’s didnt lose, he wasnt being aggressive on purpose, he was showing how dumb it is that a thief can maintain that much stealth uptime. The mechanic is clearly broken that what is shown in the video is even possible thanks to horrible culling and re-stealth-ability

The Thief can’t do that if you prevent CnD…

YOU need to prevent CnD, its a VERY low range melee attack, it happens every 4-5 seconds, its VERY easy to prevent, DON’T let it hit you and you win.

not the point, the point is culling + using mechanics to avoid revealed debuff = broken.

doesnt matter if it’s easy to avoid, point is it’s possible and shouldn’t be.

Sprawl.3891:

Daecollo.9578:

Sprawl.3891:

Daecollo.9578:

Delofakitten.4231:

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

He looks like a pretty terrible player to me, he just complained and he has no idea what his enemies doing. “Lol enjoy your ban!”. When any good player knows exactly what CnD is.

He wasn’t dodging, he wasn’t doing anything but letting the thief HIT him over and over, he wasn’t aggressive, in fact hes a joke as a player, because he ran into something he couldn’t beat and gave up.

I hope I never have him on my team.

It might as well have been 2 vs 1, because he was helping the enemy by being bad more so then helping his team, thieves feed on bads the more bads you have on your team, the stronger the thief is.

slow down bro. he’s didnt lose, he wasnt being aggressive on purpose, he was showing how dumb it is that a thief can maintain that much stealth uptime. The mechanic is clearly broken that what is shown in the video is even possible thanks to horrible culling and re-stealth-ability

The Thief can’t do that if you prevent CnD…

YOU need to prevent CnD, its a VERY low range melee attack, it happens every 4-5 seconds, its VERY easy to prevent, DON’T let it hit you and you win.

not the point, the point is culling + using mechanics to avoid revealed debuff = broken.

doesnt matter if it’s easy to avoid, point is it’s possible and shouldn’t be.

Its not broken, the player was visible for the 0.6 seconds he wasn’t in stealth, if you watched the video you would see him in very plain sight, he just stealthed again and again.

SPvP doesn’t have culling issues like wvwvw, and hes not “avoiding the reveal debuff.” he never recieved it in the first place.

Let me tell you whats happening.

He hits you with cloak and dagger.
1. You get damaged for very little.
2. He goes into stealth.
3. he waits for stealth to go away.
4. he immediately uses cloak and dagger again.

Hes not attacking you while stealthed, so hes never getting the revealed buff.

Why shouldn’t it be possible? Cloak and Dagger does not do enough damage to kill anything with it, even if you hit the target over and over with it, your healing spell will out heal the damage of the attack, and you have to be standing still like an idiot to be hit by cloak and dagger in the first place.

First i’d like to point that culling is working just fine. Everytime I am “revealed” in the video, the game takes 1 second, at maximum, to render my char. Second, stop mocking the OP. He is a decent player. Later, we fought again and he did well.

Now on the topic, I do agree that fighting against a thief stealthing over and over again is frustraiting. However, if Anet intends to fix or change it, they must be very careful. One wrong nerf and everything goes to hell. We thieves, need more options that we are running out (S/P & S/D nerf anyone?). Being a new weapon set (rifle or sword off hand) or a buff to underdog builds (P/P, traps, venoms…), whatever! But we need those compensations. Else, we’ll be forced to use D/D BS build, because everything else is not as efficient…

Daecollo.9578:

Sprawl.3891:

Daecollo.9578:

Sprawl.3891:

Daecollo.9578:

Delofakitten.4231:

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

He looks like a pretty terrible player to me, he just complained and he has no idea what his enemies doing. “Lol enjoy your ban!”. When any good player knows exactly what CnD is.

He wasn’t dodging, he wasn’t doing anything but letting the thief HIT him over and over, he wasn’t aggressive, in fact hes a joke as a player, because he ran into something he couldn’t beat and gave up.

I hope I never have him on my team.

It might as well have been 2 vs 1, because he was helping the enemy by being bad more so then helping his team, thieves feed on bads the more bads you have on your team, the stronger the thief is.

slow down bro. he’s didnt lose, he wasnt being aggressive on purpose, he was showing how dumb it is that a thief can maintain that much stealth uptime. The mechanic is clearly broken that what is shown in the video is even possible thanks to horrible culling and re-stealth-ability

The Thief can’t do that if you prevent CnD…

YOU need to prevent CnD, its a VERY low range melee attack, it happens every 4-5 seconds, its VERY easy to prevent, DON’T let it hit you and you win.

not the point, the point is culling + using mechanics to avoid revealed debuff = broken.

doesnt matter if it’s easy to avoid, point is it’s possible and shouldn’t be.

Its not broken, the player was visible for the 0.6 seconds he wasn’t in stealth, if you watched the video you would see him in very plain sight, he just stealthed again and again.

SPvP doesn’t have culling issues like wvwvw, and hes not “avoiding the reveal debuff.” he never recieved it in the first place.

Let me tell you whats happening.

He hits you with cloak and dagger.
1. You get damaged for very little.
2. He goes into stealth.
3. he waits for stealth to go away.
4. he immediately uses cloak and dagger again.

Hes not attacking you while stealthed, so hes never getting the revealed buff.

Why shouldn’t it be possible? Cloak and Dagger does not do enough damage to kill anything with it, even if you hit the target over and over with it, your healing spell will out heal the damage of the attack, and you have to be standing still like an idiot to be hit by cloak and dagger in the first place.

well since he spread all those caltrops his movement is alot slower making it easy to use c&d go invis spread more caltrops rinse repeat and remaining perma invis. it be even better if he had a main hand pistil and can pop out of stealth hit #1 up close and c&d. simple easy and cheap oh oh and broken cant forget that

Lol this is such a crutch that bad players abuse and think they are l337 skilled. If you think this is good for the health of the game then you’re dead wrong. Revealed debuff needs to be increased. The funny thing is that stealth attacks don’t use initiative, so they can re-stealth every 3 seconds, as well as back stab or stealth attack (pistol attack). Most players can barely target the thief the 2-3 seconds he is visible, let alone hit them with a combo, before he re-stealths and heals. I don’t care about thieves burst damage, or anything else, I played a thief for a long time, reveal debuff needs to be longer, to remove stealth as a terrible terrible crutch. I played pistol dagger thief, being able to re-stealth every 3 seconds while healing and clearin conditions/ stacking bleeds gives you a huge advantage over others.

Vile.5678:

No dodging? Standing in caltrops? Instead, complaining and saying “enjoy ur ban”? Last time I checked those don’t counter much of anything except credibility.

You don’t know how to read a annotation do you? Lol

But the whole point of the video was to show how the stealth mechanic is just broken in general, it needs to be reworked. Yes I know I was standing in the caltrops on purpose, I simply didn’t care because the damage was something to be joked about at best. But that doesn’t write off the stealth.

It’s strange, early on, before beta began, the development team seemed to focus on making the thief about mobility, and, for some reason, I had the impression that they were trying to down play stealth. I definitely remember them saying they wanted the class to be viable without stealth. The class would be so much fun to play and watch if it were mobile and visible.

Fighting with this much stealth is just boring unless you’re playing metal gear solid in the 90s.

Daecollo.9578:

Delofakitten.4231:

Countless is a very good player, I’ve run into him before and so if he’s saying it is a little over the top to be stealthed that much for that long, well I would listen. That said, I too feel that stealth is a little out of control, I too play a mesmer and know that my current build would suffer for a slight nerf to stealth and yet I would STILL like them to nerf it slightly. Not so much it’s duration or breaking instantly, but instead a shimmer on me, or at least numbers popping up when I’m hit with AoE, that would be fine. To compensate they could give a small damge reduction trait while in stealth to allow for being tracked while in stealth, the effect doesn’t completely change and the visual distortion remains for larger scale fights, but doesn’t allow me to remain stealthed to just avoid being detected at all.

Balancing it isn’t as hard as it might seem, just a matter of whether it’s intended to work the way it is currently, which is that when in stealth you cannot be seen at all, nor numbers or anything else to let the opponent know where you “might” be at. (you can still see you’ve been hit while in stealth and dodge roll to avoid them hitting you with their next AoE, juking and still remaining in stealth at that point) Juking isn’t rewarded in the game as much with so many target lock abilities, more skill shots, less target locked abilities. The stronger the ability the less likely it should be target locked, all stuns should be that way; knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, immobilizes, as well. Blind and cripple are minor effects and not nearly as powerful in PvP as the above and so are fine to be target locked abilities.

TL;DR “It’s not a L2P issue here, he knows what his options are and how to beat it if he really tried, but it’s just funny and sad in it’s current form. Counterplay > L2P imo.”

He looks like a pretty terrible player to me, he just complained and he has no idea what his enemies doing. “Lol enjoy your ban!”. When any good player knows exactly what CnD is.

He wasn’t dodging, he wasn’t doing anything but letting the thief HIT him over and over, he wasn’t aggressive, in fact hes a joke as a player, because he ran into something he couldn’t beat and gave up.

I hope I never have him on my team.

It might as well have been 2 vs 1, because he was helping the enemy by being bad more so then helping his team, thieves feed on bads the more bads you have on your team, the stronger the thief is.

Perhaps you were unable to read the annotation in the video? Also if you doubt my ability to play. You should check out my montages on my channel. Here I will even link it to you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AXTCk5uYwQ If you are still not convinced. I can simply roll you over personally, fraps it, and put it on youtube for your viewing pleasure Good day.

uwo.8197:

It’s strange, early on, before beta began, the development team seemed to focus on making the thief about mobility, and, for some reason, I had the impression that they were trying to down play stealth. I definitely remember them saying they wanted the class to be viable without stealth. The class would be so much fun to play and watch if it were mobile and visible.

Fighting with this much stealth is just boring unless you’re playing metal gear solid in the 90s.

Thank you for highlighting the crux of what I have a problem with. The class doesn’t seem like it’s designed to be in stealth all the time. The game doesn’t seem designed around it. If it were, Thieves would have a profession ability to just go stealth, and they’d stay stealthed until coming out (see: Forge).

One of the most entertaining streams I watched back when he streamed (not sure if he does) was Reyon from Team Paradigm. He played a S/P Thief, and regardless of Pistol Whip discussions (I didn’t have much of a problem with it, but it did a whole lot of damage for being able to use twice in a row), just watching him was insanely enjoyable. Shadowstepping in and out with the Sword and Utility. Roaming at ultra speeds, popping up onto ledges and such with the Shortbow. It was just wildly fun to watch, and being able to keep track of those mobility tools without just losing yourself or getting caught was quite the show.

In comparison, being stealthed for most of a fight is just babytown frolicks. I don’t care if it’s because the other options aren’t viable. That isn’t an argument to keep stealth the way it is, that’s an argument to make the other options viable. I agree with that argument. Make it so Thieves work up towards being highly mobile as they get better. Make the rewards from the mobility worth it, and tone down the ridiculousness of stealth in the process.

That’s all I want. I want to appreciate Thieves, not think they’re trash.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/How-to-fix-my-class-for-PvP