Guild Wars 2

right now thieves can cover the entire point in caltrops by facerolling, i mean dodge rolling, meaning that everyone trying to take the point is getting 20 stacks of bleeds at all times. is there any hope this sort of rubbish will get fixed soon?

Yeah, it’s overpowered as hell. It simply needs to pulse or not last as long, like the rest of the AOE fields.

Just walk out of it, problem solved it does zero damage.

And lose the capture point good idea.

Have your ele or guardian or any class with strong condi removal stand on the point, there are MANY ways to cleanse conditions.

Perhaps remove bleeding, since the point of the caltrops are to hinder enemy movement. Not the Caltrops skill per se, but the trait that gives caltrops upon dodge.

MindlessRuff.1948:

Have your ele or guardian or any class with strong condi removal stand on the point, there are MANY ways to cleanse conditions.

None of this changes the fact that it’s an overpowered skill. You can trait it for a 24 second cooldown.

24 second cooldown, fast stacking bleeds, crippling and AOE the size of a capture node. It’s just overpowered and needs to be nerfed to be in-line with other skills fairness. There is no counter or skill involved with this, “skill”.

Ruufio.1496:

There is no counter or skill involved with this, “skill”.

You mean like staff guardian 5? And hammer 5? Trap a Thief inside this and watch them bounce around. Caltrops isn’t a ground targetable skill. They have to be in the cap. Catch a thief and smash it.

MindlessRuff.1948:

Have your ele or guardian or any class with strong condi removal stand on the point, there are MANY ways to cleanse conditions.

Yeah too bad it pulses every second and lasts for 14 lol okay. Oh and it triggers their healing sig so it regens them too like an attack.

I don’t know if death blossom thief is op or not but its super lame and boring to fight. It’s like anet keeps nerfing fotm and then players just come up with even more ways to make the game unfun.

MindlessRuff.1948:

Have your ele or guardian or any class with strong condi removal stand on the point, there are MANY ways to cleanse conditions.

you shouldnt need a coordinated maneuver to counter a spammer. cuz thats all it is, it’s spamming, not strategy. the caltrops are always there and theyre always pulsing bleeds.

The only thing broken about Caltrops is the fact that you can solo a lord and ignore its minions.

nerva.7940:

MindlessRuff.1948:

Have your ele or guardian or any class with strong condi removal stand on the point, there are MANY ways to cleanse conditions.

you shouldnt need a coordinated maneuver to counter a spammer. cuz thats all it is, it’s spamming, not strategy.

You should be prepared for anything if you want to win, a necro standing on the high ground which is featured on several points is able to stack bleeding on a target, spread it in an AOE, and use wells which do considerably more damage than Caltrops. They shouldn’t just remove all AOEs just because some think that they do too much damage when stood in and refuse to do anything to mitigate/cleanse/heal the damage. If all AOEs like caltrops were nerfed people could stand in them with impunity.

Like everything they buffed about thief in BWE3…
Initiative regen, caltrops, damage, etc…
Still haven’t toned down any of it.

MindlessRuff.1948:

nerva.7940:

MindlessRuff.1948:

Have your ele or guardian or any class with strong condi removal stand on the point, there are MANY ways to cleanse conditions.

you shouldnt need a coordinated maneuver to counter a spammer. cuz thats all it is, it’s spamming, not strategy.

You should be prepared for anything if you want to win, a necro standing on the high ground which is featured on several points is able to stack bleeding on a target, spread it in an AOE, and use wells which do considerably more damage than Caltrops. They shouldn’t just remove all AOEs just because some think that they do too much damage when stood in and refuse to do anything to mitigate/cleanse/heal the damage. If all AOEs like caltrops were nerfed people could stand in them with impunity.

i dont mean to discount your opinion, but you seem completely disconnected from the way the situation would occur in an organized match. while youre wasting your resources on that one spamming thief, the rest of his team is pounding the point, get it? the bleeds stack extremely fast, and you can blow all your CD’s for the first 10-15 seconds of it, but then he just comes back and does it again, i.e. spamming. unlike the cleanses, caltrops dont have a real CD.

Panther Chameleon.8465:

Ruufio.1496:

There is no counter or skill involved with this, “skill”.

You mean like staff guardian 5? And hammer 5? Trap a Thief inside this and watch them bounce around. Caltrops isn’t a ground targetable skill. They have to be in the cap. Catch a thief and smash it.

That’d work except dodging rolls right through those abilities without issues. You know dodge right? It’s that thing they’re doing to drop caltrops in the first place. Such a well thought out counter though, perhaps you should skulk away in silence after that idiocy.

nerva.7940:

right now thieves can cover the entire point in caltrops by facerolling, i mean dodge rolling, meaning that everyone trying to take the point is getting 20 stacks of bleeds at all times.

Dodge roll caltrops can, at most, apply 4 bleed stacks per dodge. Utility caltrops, not the trait-generated ones, are your culprit if you’re getting 20-stacked.

Odaman.8359:

Panther Chameleon.8465:

Ruufio.1496:

There is no counter or skill involved with this, “skill”.

You mean like staff guardian 5? And hammer 5? Trap a Thief inside this and watch them bounce around. Caltrops isn’t a ground targetable skill. They have to be in the cap. Catch a thief and smash it.

That’d work except dodging rolls right through those abilities without issues. You know dodge right? It’s that thing they’re doing to drop caltrops in the first place. Such a well thought out counter though, perhaps you should skulk away in silence after that idiocy.

Well, if you can’t trap someone with two walls you shouldn’t be playing. Bottom line, they need to be at your feet to dodge and land caltrops. If you can’t stop one player from running through you, how can you stop 5 people running through you figuratively and literally? Perhaps you should stop being a squid. I stop that caltrop kitten all day when I play Guardian. You can, too. Plus, a concecration sanctuary directly kittens caltrop thieves in the kitten hard. And “Caltrops” have a cast time. There’s plenty of opportunity to spot it and knock the Thief about 300 away from the cap.

So Caltrops don’t have a CD now? I don’t think statements like that show that I am the one disconnected with what might happen in a real game. You don’t need to blow ALL cds to deal with caltrops, it has some cripple and can stack bleeding quite high if you stand in them the full duration. For example you could stand of of them if the stack gets past 7 stacks or so, use one CD to remove the stack, then move back to contest the point. I have zero problems with Caltrops in tPvP matches, maybe it is the nature of my class but I disagree they are OP.

Honestly, just cut the middle man and ask Anet to remove thief completely. That may sound sarcastic, but I really mean it – no amount of nerfs will make the community happy – they’ll just pick the next ability that displeases them, cry about it endlessly, and get it nerfed. Then thieves will be given 100 more HP for HiS base, and Anet will call it a “survivability buff”.

Most classes have a spec option that includes a “Get the hell off the point” style AoE ability – Caltrops lasts longer, and is less devastating to stand in than most. A properly spec’d bunker guardian, or any bunker ele can just ignore it. Other classes have plenty of ways to counter it. I’m sorry your spec doesn’t pack a way to counter it quickly and easily, but mine doesn’t either. You’ll learn to play around it.

they just need to get on adjusting the blatant, horrible, game-ruining builds faster, and not let it linger for months and months. this way, they wouldnt have to remove an entire profession.

nerva.7940:

they just need to get on adjusting the blatant, horrible, game-ruining builds faster, and not let it linger for months and months. this way, they wouldnt have to remove an entire profession.

According to the community, the thief builds that actually work (glass cannon BS, P/D conditions) are blatant, horrible game-ruining builds. Seeing as these 2 builds are nearly polar opposites of each other, I’m led to believe people just don’t like playing against thief style mechanics – those aren’t going anywhere, so people should probably get used to it.

You know, it would be amazing if my Necro self could have a well that pulsed bleeds. Oh, how a Necro can dream, right?

lol. naaaah, it makes more sense for sharp pieces of metal to “pulse”.

Zeke Minus.5720:

You know, it would be amazing if my Necro self could have a well that pulsed bleeds. Oh, how a Necro can dream, right?

Well if you have epidemic and a thief drops caltrops….

I agree that caltrops, in itself, is overpowered as a utility skill. However, it is literally the only thing making bleed thief remotely viable (in pvp); so in the larger scheme I’m inclined to let it slide.

Yeah, I was just thinking about how it would be nice to have. Necros have better control over conditions.

In all seriousness, though, when I see a condi-theif, I get excited because it means free bleeds. I stand in the Caltrops until I get high, then throw them onto someone I’ve been bleeding and Epidemic. So beautiful.

Panther Chameleon.8465:

Odaman.8359:

Panther Chameleon.8465:

Ruufio.1496:

There is no counter or skill involved with this, “skill”.

You mean like staff guardian 5? And hammer 5? Trap a Thief inside this and watch them bounce around. Caltrops isn’t a ground targetable skill. They have to be in the cap. Catch a thief and smash it.

That’d work except dodging rolls right through those abilities without issues. You know dodge right? It’s that thing they’re doing to drop caltrops in the first place. Such a well thought out counter though, perhaps you should skulk away in silence after that idiocy.

Well, if you can’t trap someone with two walls you shouldn’t be playing. Bottom line, they need to be at your feet to dodge and land caltrops. If you can’t stop one player from running through you, how can you stop 5 people running through you figuratively and literally? Perhaps you should stop being a squid. I stop that caltrop kitten all day when I play Guardian. You can, too. Plus, a concecration sanctuary directly kittens caltrop thieves in the kitten hard. And “Caltrops” have a cast time. There’s plenty of opportunity to spot it and knock the Thief about 300 away from the cap.

Except caltrops can be dropped from stealth. I played about 2 days worth of my thief as a death blossom bleed spec, with loltrops. I was destroying groups of enemies. Had whispers saying wow your a good thief (lol in itself as I don’t play a thief that often). Before I swapped to sword and dagger which is just more fun for me. Loltrops and death blossom spec is a great spec and it can wreck in the write hands it just didn’t feel right to me. I do agree that people keep complaining about different parts of the thief and I don’t want to see this profession destroyed, but the utility caltrops are pretty crazy in a pvp mode that says You have to stand here oh right there? That big glowing space that I can cover in a utility that I can stack 25 bleeds on someone in no time (with LDB added of course) It lasts a little to long in my opinion considering cleansing it and then being stuck in it (by immobilize, or being forced to go back in like Capping a point) stacks bleeds immediately back up to at least 7. Not to mention the thief is spamming AOE bleeds through D/D that apply 3 stacks on top of it that also evade the thief.

Thief doesn’t have many other cover conditions for the bleeds which I feel is the only thing keeping the loltrop build on earth right now.

Again this is one of those things, that if Conquest wasn’t the only style of play his wouldn’t even be an issue.

how about player gets a tick of bleeding only if he moves on the caltrops? i dont understand why it keeps on ticking even when youre standing still. conceptually, it makes no freaking sense, and it’s outright broken.

I play this build (d+d/caltrops/healing signet/healing power) on my thief and have a lot of fun with it as a roamer. It can be really great in team fights and for stopping enemy rezzes (have fun rezzing them with that 20+ bleed stack), however against any bunker build it just gets out done. Elementalists and Guardians can both cleanse the bleed off pretty easily. Also dodging on and off your point can help you drop stacks and lose minimal progress on your point. It’s a fun build but I’d say far from over powered. When I fight thieves like this on my Guardian I giggle at how easy they are to kill when they can’t stack bleeds. Also they suck at handling bursts/stuns.

nerva.7940:

how about player gets a tick of bleeding only if he moves on the caltrops? i dont understand why it keeps on ticking even when youre standing still. conceptually, it makes no freaking sense, and it’s outright broken.

It isn’t broken, you would probably get owned faster if you stood still, regardless of caltrop damage, so this wouldn’t change much.

Solution: Make the AoE radius the same relative size of wells and make it much more visible. Even if they didn’t decrease the size, I would prefer it to be as visible as wells. It’s only fair.

This thread seems to be lacking advice for non-guardian/ele bunkers, so I’ll chime in. Yes, it’s a strong build but it’s one of two viable thief builds, so it won’t get nerfed. And there are several counters:

1. Avoid caltrops—it’s hard for the thief to cover the entire point. Often you can stand at the edge and maintain control and your health pool.
2. Step out of the point for a second—don’t let it go neutral, of course, but when the thief has three sets of caltrops down on the point it’s in your interest to step out just for 1-2 seconds. If it’s already neutral, focus on killing the thief first, taking the point later.
3. Thieves hate cc. Knockbacks/blowouts are especially good vs caltrop thieves, and of course stuns/knockdowns are stronger for keeping them in place and killing them.
4. Most important—hurt the thief. Thieves hate pain. They will tell you to use defensive cooldowns or dodge, but that doesn’t really stop them, since you can’t really force them to “blow a cooldown.” They run like crazy when they get hurt, though.

Hope this helps.

I have to say.. this build isn´t dangerous as annoying due to evasive attacks. He can literally be in evasive state 90% of his time if played well.

If you find a good caltrops thief chances are you never kill him (he decide when to leave) or you lose point or get it neutralized.

Problem i see is if he get your point neutralized.. then he is doing good job allready.. he dont need to cap it. Just keep it neutral while bonding on him you + probably one more guy? i have seen scenarios like that. Altought i believe that with 2 guys you should be able to kill him easily within seconds (just cc + burst).

But as i said.. the main problem is if you 1v1 with caltrops and he neutralize your point – you are loosing. Maybe not this fight but the game.

NevirSayDie.6235:

This thread seems to be lacking advice for non-guardian/ele bunkers, so I’ll chime in.

thanks, but this thread lacks advice because i didnt ask for any. personally, i know how to deal with it as ive been tpvp’ing for a while. just because there’s a way to do it does not make the build any less ridiculous. so here’s a wild suggestion…phase out this type of rubbish and implement more balanced and interesting builds.

Aragiel.6132:

I have to say.. this build isn´t dangerous as annoying due to evasive attacks. He can literally be in evasive state 90% of his time if played well.

But as i said.. the main problem is if you 1v1 with caltrops and he neutralize your point – you are loosing. Maybe not this fight but the game.

precisely the problem, and my thoughts exactly.

nerva.7940:

right now thieves can cover the entire point in caltrops by facerolling, i mean dodge rolling, meaning that everyone trying to take the point is getting 20 stacks of bleeds at all times. is there any hope this sort of rubbish will get fixed soon?

Dude you act like you get 20 stacks of bleeds in 3 seconds or something. For him to get the bleeds stacked that quickly you have to be moving on the caltrops and the thief needs to be spamming Death Blossom. And at that point they will probably be at 25 stacks.

The way you put it in your original post, is you were playing hot-join. In most tPvP each team has a bunker and most bunkers can deal with conditions easily.

u sure we’re playing the same tpvp? cuz this is what thief roamers to do neutralize points, as Aragiel explained. neutralized point = a losing game. it’s kinda sad that the standard now is a 2-bunker requirement.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m led to believe people just don’t like playing against thief style mechanics

Well, yeah. You haven’t noticed this in EVERY mmo that’s had some kind of silly “lulzinvisible/cc/evading/stabbystabby/1001escapes/conditionstealthattrition” class? Rogue, thief, assassin, etc.

WoW – Rogues: People hate them
AoC – Assassins: People hate them
GW2 – Thieves: People hate them
SWtOR – Operatives AND Assassins: People hate them

Hmm, sensing a trend here. Could be that most people hate these types of classes except the ones playing them and getting giddy about trololo ganking people.

I’m actually being somewhat serious here. These are the class types that the majority of complaints in mmo’s are about. They’re annoying and irritating. Regardless of how powerful, either over or under, they are they’re just an unfun pvp experience for most people on the opposite side of them. Unless there are blatant balance issues going on, like the whoopslolretpally buff of TBC end and early WotLK era people are generally ok with other types of classes overall.

• And yes, for the record, I make one of these in every game specifically to trololo around and gank people in open world until they rage log. In hotjoins and wvw here I get on my thief specifically to trololo people and stealth away until cd’s are up, or /laugh at them as they swing wildly in that oh so fun game of whack a mole that is the “counter” to stealth.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

Panther Chameleon.8465:

Odaman.8359:

Panther Chameleon.8465:

Ruufio.1496:

There is no counter or skill involved with this, “skill”.

You mean like staff guardian 5? And hammer 5? Trap a Thief inside this and watch them bounce around. Caltrops isn’t a ground targetable skill. They have to be in the cap. Catch a thief and smash it.

That’d work except dodging rolls right through those abilities without issues. You know dodge right? It’s that thing they’re doing to drop caltrops in the first place. Such a well thought out counter though, perhaps you should skulk away in silence after that idiocy.

Well, if you can’t trap someone with two walls you shouldn’t be playing. Bottom line, they need to be at your feet to dodge and land caltrops. If you can’t stop one player from running through you, how can you stop 5 people running through you figuratively and literally? Perhaps you should stop being a squid. I stop that caltrop kitten all day when I play Guardian. You can, too. Plus, a concecration sanctuary directly kittens caltrop thieves in the kitten hard. And “Caltrops” have a cast time. There’s plenty of opportunity to spot it and knock the Thief about 300 away from the cap.

Except caltrops can be dropped from stealth. I played about 2 days worth of my thief as a death blossom bleed spec, with loltrops. I was destroying groups of enemies. Had whispers saying wow your a good thief (lol in itself as I don’t play a thief that often). Before I swapped to sword and dagger which is just more fun for me. Loltrops and death blossom spec is a great spec and it can wreck in the write hands it just didn’t feel right to me. I do agree that people keep complaining about different parts of the thief and I don’t want to see this profession destroyed, but the utility caltrops are pretty crazy in a pvp mode that says You have to stand here oh right there? That big glowing space that I can cover in a utility that I can stack 25 bleeds on someone in no time (with LDB added of course) It lasts a little to long in my opinion considering cleansing it and then being stuck in it (by immobilize, or being forced to go back in like Capping a point) stacks bleeds immediately back up to at least 7. Not to mention the thief is spamming AOE bleeds through D/D that apply 3 stacks on top of it that also evade the thief.

Thief doesn’t have many other cover conditions for the bleeds which I feel is the only thing keeping the loltrop build on earth right now.

Again this is one of those things, that if Conquest wasn’t the only style of play his wouldn’t even be an issue.

Except, now it’s more of a stealth issue. If you can’t deal with stealth L2P, that’s what they told me. I think it’s a powerful build, no doubt. I’ve started plenty of threads regarding stealth, and how I kittening hate it. However, that doesn’t mean the utility skill or the dodge mechanic are broken in any way shape or form. The Thief is always going to be powerful whether it’s damage or conditions. You’re just witnessing what happens when they nerf one thing. A new monster is born. Just because you’re in stealth doesn’t mean you can’t be damaged. I guess people need to learn to trap that build with 1h sword warrior with bolas and all sorts of nasty immobilizes, and lots of condition removal, huh? It’s what I recently started doing and it can keep up just fine with bleed thieves.

I was wondering how long it was gonna take people on the forums to realize this is a problem.

Yes caltrops is too strong, it offers too much point control on too short a cool down. Same reason smoke bomb was absurd was that pulsed continuously, caltrops needs a shorter pulse to bring it in line.

Time your attack vs a caltrop thief for when they just hit the ground on death blossom. Its very easy to deal with them. I love to see them as a backstab thief myself because i can just kill them in between a death blossom. Also unless your tpvp is designed around having a bleed thief he really serves no purpose because the other teams necro is still going to melt your poor bunker guardian while you are just spinning about. if your team is however based around your bleed thief going after an off point this is very effective just look at jumper x he was doing this very well !

It isn’t hard to deal with, that isn’t the problem. The problem is you can’t stand on the point for a prolonged period of time thanks to the caltrops being there. Normally aoe is limited in duration or size, caltrops last for a good time with good coverage. It needs to not pulse as often, not last as long, or be smaller.

Ok, lets say whats should be goal of caltrops thief? is it to kill you? not really to be honest. Not in tournament PvP.
I played with one of my friends in PAID tournaments. He said he will play caltrops builds.. i was like.. eh.. caltrops? go backstab so you can roam like a boss. And he said.. it will be fine.. just check it.

So we played paid tournaments. wha he did was pretty much simple. He always run enemy point and normally he played against mesmer there. At this it was easy for him to neutralize the point. So reaction of opposite team was to send their roamer back. In this he was fighting 2v1 on enemy point which he get neutralized so no points for enemy team. Leaving us to fight 4vs3 on other points. Sometimes he was able to keep 2 people on him for a serious time. They were unable to kill him as he wasnt specced to kill.. but to neutralize the point. For us we had easier job to maintain mid point + our close point. and that was pretty much easy. Yes, we get roflstomped in third round normally.. but most of the time the caltorps thief made his job.. he bound on him 2 players + he get enemy point neutralized.

Counter? of course backstab will be best counter. But if you send your bacstab back you lost allready. Few points you didnt get becasue your point was neutralized, and another few points by fighing him. as tradeoff you get 5 points when you actually kill him.

Just wondering, what other options would Thief have for point control? Scorpion Wire would only work from the outside. Stealths are out, Choking Gas lasts all of 4 seconds, and their traps don’t push anyone back, Skull Fear needs a clean hit on a Necro. Are Thieves supposed to have no point control what so ever?

alright just going to say it. The skill is fine, if you are squishy deal with him wait for caltrops to fade away then take the point. or keep going if you have a bunker there. Try to find different ways of dealing with this otherwise if they keep nerfing things like this there will only be one viable spec and the game will have no changing meta.

There is a reason most thieves don’t adopt this build for tournaments. Its undoubtedly strong situationally, but the build forces your playstyle to be so static that its hard for it to function properly. Its strong over a point for the time the caltrops are down allowing for a possible immobilize, but its hard to pressure anyone outside this instance if they have half a brain and decent condition removal. Leaping Death Blossom isn’t really that deadly by itself. These type of thieves tend to melt under concentrated AOE over points as well.

Pistol/dagger is a much better condition build, and most thieves won’t care if caltrops is nerfed in PvP. It will change absolutely nothing about thief play in the long run. Some thieves can make this work, but I haven’t seen it personally.

The more I play against this silly build the more I realize it’s the mode I hate, not the build.

Just give us old random arena for casual pvp Anet, I don’t want to have to deal with 1v1s of people capping points with builds designed to do nothing but stay on it forever. I guess this is the real reason for zergs, as I played a bit of 5v5 today and they still zerged even then, it was just easier to avoid.

Well, i also remember quite a few games against those thiefs. They are really pain in … if you dont adapt. So what we do lately in our team when facing caltrops. We just switch roles.
Caltrops offten goes for our point with the goal of neutralize. So instead of portal mesmer guarding the point we switch roles and keep our elementalist holding point and mesmer is more roaming instead. That way, when caltrops is attacking our ele, he offten get
a) killed by our ele
b) they have neverending fight, but he will never ever get the point neutralized. Ele simply has enough cleansing
c) he can hold the point long enough till we broke their own defense and therefore we force the thief focus somewhere else.

its also working fine. But if you dont have ele, you have to find other class in your team that can survive, and never get the point to be neutralized.

nerva.7940:

right now thieves can cover the entire point in caltrops by facerolling, i mean dodge rolling, meaning that everyone trying to take the point is getting 20 stacks of bleeds at all times. is there any hope this sort of rubbish will get fixed soon?

“Caltrops” inflict double damage – this is a bug.
2 stack in sec, instead 1

thieves have some strange evade mechanism.

thief immobilize and still be able to evade with disabling shot dont make any sense, he dont even move so how the hell is he evading atacks? LOL (ranger quick shot is the same thing)

death blossom is another strange evade skill. you put a mark on ground a thief use death blossom and when in air he trigger the mark and evade it….

[disclaimer: I have 1061 games on thief, 80% of them as condition bow with caltrops, very similar to d/d blossom]

Sigh, yet more mindless drones exaggerating every number they can think of.

Caltrops, the utility, can only stack to 6-8 stacks of active bleeds (depending on your +bleed duration choices on runes/sigils). It is impossible within the game mechanics to get 20 stacks of bleeding just from caltrops (utility), since it applies 2 stacks of bleeds every 1 second that last for 3 seconds. The utility’s area is as large as normal sized cap points.

Dodgetrops apply 1 bleed per 1 seconds, max 3-4 stacks of active bleeding. The area is also smaller than the utility, so no, you won’t cover a whole cap point by just dodging in the middle.

If you drop caltrops (uti) and dodge twice on top of that and someone kindly sits in it for 5 seconds, you’ll max out on 16 stacks of active bleeds. 18 if you dodge 3 times on that spot. So that’s a good 4-5 seconds total ‘casting time’ and the target needs to stand in a half-cap-point area for 5 seconds. Mmmhh, totally broken I agree.

As for the build itself, deathblossom is so inferior to shortbow variant. D/D is better for killing neutral bosses. Shortbow in itself is extremely OP weapon though, since it has too much of everything. It works for power, it works for condi, it has aoe poison (one of the best condies), it has a spammable evade and it has a teleport shot that can be used as aoe blind.

You are wrong… utility caltrops stacks alone 10+bleed +dodge caltrops and the kitten thief not even touched his weapon skills and now tell this is fine when that stupid class can force out anyone from the point while evading all attacks and stacking insane amount of bleed. In the beta i could do the same with ranger but only on single target and they nerfd them to the ground(or below) now time to do the same with the thief