Guild Wars 2

So the fact that necros can hard counter guards/mesmers/thieves/eles right now means balance is that bad then right? As it stands there are only 2 decent hard counters to this Condi spam meta. AR and a well played stunlock warrior

Stealth.9324:

Power creep = bad balance.
Less way to counter Conditions and CC at the same time = bad design.

Too bad that it is just only you want that kind of depth. Don’t assume when you know nothing. You are not representative for our community.

So you’re saying that power creep is bad but answering an overpowered mechanic with another overpowered trait is prerfectly fine?

I’ve never said that conditions don’t need to be toned down, but justifying AR because of power creep is laughable.

I guess that you want to play a rock-paper-scissor game where by simply looking the team composition you’re capable to determine who is going to win?
Man, sorry if I thought that the community had better expectations about this game.

jportell.2197:

So the fact that necros can hard counter guards/mesmers/thieves/eles right now means balance is that bad then right? As it stands there are only 2 decent hard counters to this Condi spam meta. AR and a well played stunlock warrior

Necro isn’t an hard counter to guardian, mesmers, thieves and eles.
Hard counter means that there is no room for counterplay from one side, which isn’t the case at all about necromancers.

A good guardian/mesmer/thief/ele can easily outperform a good Necromancer, while a good Necromancer hardly outperforms a good AR engi.

sorrow.2364:

Stealth.9324:

Power creep = bad balance.
Less way to counter Conditions and CC at the same time = bad design.

Too bad that it is just only you want that kind of depth. Don’t assume when you know nothing. You are not representative for our community.

So you’re saying that power creep is bad but answering an overpowered mechanic with another overpowered trait is prerfectly fine?

I’ve never said that conditions don’t need to be toned down, but justifying AR because of power creep is laughable.

Don’t laugh just yet, I never said anything about what you said. It is just a counter post to your example. Not until power creep get some fixed, AR should not be touched no matter what. Fix Power Creep first, then we can talk.

A good and experience tactician can tell the odd of wining based on the information that been given by the enemy. Necro is OP but you can’t expect a full team of 5 Necros to most likely to win the fight would you not? Or you can not expect a full team only knows how to play Rock to win against a team that is well-rounded.. Either I misunderstand you or you have a misunderstanding about the game.

How is Necro Fear chain not to be seen as leave no room for counterplay, I don’t understand? You have been told many time of how to counter an AR Enginner, though you refuse to listen. All you need to do is don’t burst home while he is on AR, burst him when he is on 26% of his health. 4k health with 5+ conditions on him, I would be amazed of how he survive that. Well, if he does, he well deserves it.

sorrow.2364:

Stealth.9324:

Power creep = bad balance.
Less way to counter Conditions and CC at the same time = bad design.

Too bad that it is just only you want that kind of depth. Don’t assume when you know nothing. You are not representative for our community.

So you’re saying that power creep is bad but answering an overpowered mechanic with another overpowered trait is prerfectly fine?

I’ve never said that conditions don’t need to be toned down, but justifying AR because of power creep is laughable.

I guess that you want to play a rock-paper-scissor game where by simply looking the team composition you’re capable to determine who is going to win?
Man, sorry if I thought that the community had better expectations about this game.

jportell.2197:

So the fact that necros can hard counter guards/mesmers/thieves/eles right now means balance is that bad then right? As it stands there are only 2 decent hard counters to this Condi spam meta. AR and a well played stunlock warrior

Necro isn’t an hard counter to guardian, mesmers, thieves and eles.
Hard counter means that there is no room for counterplay from one side, which isn’t the case at all about necromancers.

A good guardian/mesmer/thief/ele can easily outperform a good Necromancer, while a good*Condi* Necromancer hardly outperforms a good AR engi.

Stop feeling like u are entitled to steam roll through everyone and this trait would be OP if it had absolutely no counters and IT does any halfway decent thief,power necro, burst ele stunlock warrior can rick roll through an AR engi The only build in the game that has an issue with it is Condi builds. Which is fine condition builds need better hard counters.

Stealth.9324:

Don’t laugh just yet, I never said anything about what you said. It is just a counter post to your example. Not until power creep get some fixed, AR should not be touched no matter what. Fix Power Creep first, then we can talk.

A good and experience tactician can tell the odd of wining based on the information that been given by the enemy. Necro is OP but you can’t expect a full team of 5 Necros to most likely to win the fight would you not? Or you can not expect a full team only knows how to play Rock to win against a team that is well-rounded.. Either I misunderstand you or you have a misunderstanding about the game.

That makes no sense.
Both AR and conditions should be toned down. There is no priority on which should be toned down first.

What I’m trying to say is that the rock-paper-scissor ideal applied to balance completely suck.
Of course it is fine that a build is more effective against another, but in the case of conditions and AR it is just scissor against rock. No matter what you do and how good you are, rock will Always beat scissor, unless rock plays horribly bad (the outcome is, by the way, only up to rock).

If I see a condition team matched up against an anti-condition team, I can say that probably the anti-condition team is going to win but nothing should give me the sureness that one team or another is going to win, because skill should be the main author of a victory.

Promoting rock-paper-scissor in balance is stupid and, honestly, I don’t want to play a game in which builds completely take over the role of skills of the individuals.

Stealth.9324:

How is Necro Fear chain not to be seen as leave no room for counterplay, I don’t understand? You have been told many time of how to counter an AR Enginner, though you refuse to listen. All you need to do is don’t burst home while he is on AR, burst him when he is on 26% of his health. 4k health with 5+ conditions on him, I would be amazed of how he survive that. Well, if he does, he well deserves it.

The counter that has been given are situational and unreliable.

Let’s assume that I’ve managed to stack 15 bleeds + burning + torment on the engi before AR kick in. I’ve done my best so I deserve to have good chances to win.

AR kicks in, engi cleanses all of his conditions and now he sits under 25% HP.
I’ve lost the encounter. Now I either have to call a teammate to help me burst him down, so I failed my role because I was incapable to hold of the engi by myself or I have to leave the node and let him cap or I can sit there indefinitely waiting for a teammate of engi coming to help.

As you can see, the outcome of the encounter is all up to the engi. I can play at my best, but if the engi is smart enough (not that much, tbh), there is nothing I can do to win.

jportell.2197:

Stop feeling like u are entitled to steam roll through everyone and this trait would be OP if it had absolutely no counters and IT does any halfway decent thief,power necro, burst ele stunlock warrior can rick roll through an AR engi The only build in the game that has an issue with it is Condi builds. Which is fine condition builds need better hard counters.

No. Condition builds need to be toned down. They don’t need a single trait given to a single profession to completely cancel any damage and control conditions deal.

How many times do I have to say that hard counters are unhelthy for the game? How many times I have to explain you why?

There will never ever have a sureness in battle. For example, a 4v5 match with the 4-sides win the game, the odd is low but it is there and exist. However, you can not expect a team with Full-Condition Builds will have a fair chance against a Full-Anti-Condition Build. They still are able to win, they just need to try harder. That’s why we have different class which has different unique abilities, to fill out different roles in combat. Counter to Counter = Balance. No sides is dominant. You can’t expect one class can do all, then why do we have many class in the first place?

A simple scenario, 3 Lords fight over a Territory. They each have their own unique army and excels in their own way. However, they know that each of them can be a countered to the rest. That’s why each of them keep others in place. If each Lord has the same army, same power, then either they do nothing or they fight to their death.Either case, it is a boring case.

Stealth.9324:

There will never ever have a sureness in battle. For example, a 4v5 match with the 4-sides win the game, the odd is low but it is there and exist. However, you can not expect a team with Full-Condition Builds will have a fair chance against a Full-Anti-Condition Build. They still are able to win, they just need to try harder. That’s why we have different class which has different unique abilities, to fill out different roles in combat. Counter to Counter = Balance. No sides is dominant. You can’t expect one class can do all, then why do we have many class in the first place?

A simple scenario, 3 Lords fight over a Territory. They each have their own unique army and excels in their own way. However, they know that each of them can be a countered to the rest. That’s why each of them keep others in place. If each Lord has the same army, same power, then either they do nothing or they fight to their death.Either case, it is a boring case.

That’s the point I’m trying to make.
A full condition team, if he’s good enough, can win against a anti-condition team.
This is not the case of AR.
It completely wipes away the counterplay for a condition build and puts all the outcome of the match in the hands of the engineer. If the engineer is bad, he’s going to loose, but if he’s good enough, there is nothing the necro can do, also if he’s the best Necro player ever.

AR should have an internal cooldown, should last only 5-6 seconds and cleanse all the conditions on trigger. It is supposed to give the engineer a sure second chance, since it is a grandmaster trait, but it shouldn’t give no room to counterplay as it is now.

The way AR works makes it situational good. If you’re 1v1 against a zero power condi dmg class, then it’s very powerful given you can stay alive at >25% hp without healing / regening.
However in a team fight it means absolutely nothing due to cleave + power damage, no engineer in his right mind would try to stay at >25% hp in a team fight just to avoid condi damage.

So to me, a good change direction would be to make it evenly useful for both 1v1 and team fights, without making it OP in either scenario. Something like @25% hp you cleanse all conditions on yourself, and gain 10 seconds (duration changed as seen fit for balance) of immunity to conditions, can’t occur more often than every 30s.

I don’t get why this is still being talked about. Especially by a necro player. Many have already mentioned that AR is less than useless against a direct damage build, but even condi-builds can kill them if well-played.

Engi can only save himself with Elixir C if you stack condi’s with reasonable duration, and the typical 18-19k HP engi running this trait can easily be fear locked and bursted to death with conditions if you time your fear chain for when you have him at about 40%. You need to save the Fears for this point, because if he gets .5s of cast time he is going to cast Elixir C and you are screwed. If you are failing against this trait though, then it is because you are trying to 100-0 the engi in 5s instead of whittling him down before bursting.

I don’t really like AR as a trait (too much passive reward, but there are tons of things like that in this game), but I wouldn’t say it is really OP either.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

I don’t get why this is still being talked about. Especially by a necro player. Many have already mentioned that AR is less than useless against a direct damage build, but even condi-builds can kill them if well-played.

Engi can only save himself with Elixir C if you stack condi’s with reasonable duration, and the typical 18-19k HP engi running this trait can easily be fear locked and bursted to death with conditions if you time your fear chain for when you have him at about 40%. You need to save the Fears for this point, because if he gets .5s of cast time he is going to cast Elixir C and you are screwed. If you are failing against this trait though, then it is because you are trying to 100-0 the engi in 5s instead of whittling him down before bursting.

I don’t really like AR as a trait (too much passive reward, but there are tons of things like that in this game), but I wouldn’t say it is really OP either.

AR cancel fears too.
Once the elixir is used under 25% hp, there is nothing you can do, really. It isn’t that hard from the engi part to use a single skill once you hit 25% HP.

Is it just me or are you ignoring everything ppl told you on how to deal with AR.

On a side note, since you obviously dont know how the trait and some of engi skills work, why not play one for a day, and see how other necros deal with AR.

jportell.2197:

zone.1073:

^

As much as I’d love to have a free Endure Pain trait with zero internal cooldown that activates automatically at 25% HP, it’s just not going to happen.

You could even use the same argument of “don’t rely on spamming X, use Y instead!!” and it still won’t justify a warrior having an automatic endure pain trait with zero internal cooldown.

Engineers should be no exception to balance.

Except a hard counter to a warrior getting endure pain at 25% is condition damage. And TBH I don’t think anyone would freak out too much if that got no ICD on it because there are plenty of ways to whittle that warrior down when they hit 25%. THE SAME THING APPLIES TO ENGIS AND AR.

As a thief how am I supposed to kill said warrior? Spam /taunt and hope he chases me and hurts himself by tripping on a rock? Not even a rock would work. A condition eock however… ( I am still in search of such myth..)

Yeah.. its not gonna happen.

The reason why AR is fine with no ICD is because every weaponset and skillset has direct damage inbuilt, under the conditions applied. An Endure Pain with no ICD would be far more abusive.

Oh, this thread again. With the same responses by some people that just want the trait nerfed. A trait that was there since launch without people even bothering about it, no less.
I’ve already explained in the old thread why the changes sorrow suggest would make it useless (and i would guess it is exactly what he’s aiming for). I and other people explained why that trait is fine, given the engineer’s characteristics, in a game that is balanced for team battles. I won’t spend my time arguing with those same people again.

overEnd.2947:

Is it just me or are you ignoring everything ppl told you on how to deal with AR.

On a side note, since you obviously dont know how the trait and some of engi skills work, why not play one for a day, and see how other necros deal with AR.

Please, list me all the counter that has been suggested that cannot be countered by the engineer again.

All the counters I’ve gathered from these kind of topics are:

• Call a teammate: which means you can’t kill him, don’t even bother to try. Not a counter.
• Stack conditions before engi hits 25% HP: not a reliable counter. Lyssa runes or Elixir C is more than enough to make all your efforts useless.
• Attack him: not a counter. It has been proved that regeneration is enough to compensate the poor direct damage.

I’ve even suggested to make AR stronger, making it cleanses all conditions too but limited time and internal cooldown, but no.

People wants to abuse that trait. You know that something is really wrong when people are that involved.

I don’t find it is a problem when Condition being toned down. However, as the way it is now, we don’t need any more touch on AR. When you get a sickness, you get medicine to counter the sickness. When the sickness is reduce, the medicine you take also less. Cause vs Solution. Solve the Cause first, then the Solution will be automatically gone.

Because that wouldn’t make this trait stronger. And engis using AR almost never take lyssa runes ( we could only get the effect almost every 3 min) nor do they use elixir C as it is a complete joke in team fights and elixir R or another kit are always much more useful.
And counters are
Call a teammate- wouldn’t you do this for normal bunkers anyway?
Time your Condi burst- by saying this isn’t a good counter is just saying your too lazy to actually care about timing.
Stop attacking for 5s- let him regen past 25% then chain fear rofl stomp.

It provides counter play u just need to know how to actually counter it and not scream and cry when you dont instantly win against one with your kittened OP Condi spam spec

supply crate dosent even trigger lyssa as far as i know, so the engi would have to use the elixir or the mortar (both amazing elites right..)

overEnd.2947:

supply crate dosent even trigger lyssa as far as i know, so the engi would have to use the elixir or the mortar (both amazing elites right..)

Whut? Lololol well that argument is out the window for engi clearing condis then chillingat 25% health bbecause 4k health isn’t scary at all to just sit at amirite?

overEnd.2947:

supply crate dosent even trigger lyssa as far as i know, so the engi would have to use the elixir or the mortar (both amazing elites right..)

Interesting, did not know that, LoL. Thanks for pointing it out. The world has so many mysterious….

Stealth.9324:

I don’t find it is a problem when Condition being toned down. However, as the way it is now, we don’t need any more touch on AR. When you get a sickness, you get medicine to counter the sickness. When the sickness is reduce, the medicine you take also less. Cause vs Solution. Solve the Cause first, then the Solution will be automatically gone.

AR is not a solution.
It is just another broken passive trait that offers quite good ways to be abused.

Since most traits are passive, it isn’t a big problem that AR is passive too. What bothers me is that AR can be easily abused because of the absence of cooldown and the potentially permanent effect.

People who really aren’t involved into abusing the trait wouldn’t mind if it had a limited duration and an internal cooldown, since it still gives the engineer a second chance against condition spec. I’ve even proposed to add a complete cleanse on 25% HP, which would make that trait even stronger.

On the other hand, people who are happily abusing the trait (or eventually are against any change just because), are posting here fictional counters and made-up situations trying to prove that the trait is fine.

jportell.2197:

Because that wouldn’t make this trait stronger. And engis using AR almost never take lyssa runes ( we could only get the effect almost every 3 min) nor do they use elixir C as it is a complete joke in team fights and elixir R or another kit are always much more useful.
And counters are
Call a teammate- wouldn’t you do this for normal bunkers anyway?
Time your Condi burst- by saying this isn’t a good counter is just saying your too lazy to actually care about timing.
Stop attacking for 5s- let him regen past 25% then chain fear rofl stomp.

It provides counter play u just need to know how to actually counter it and not scream and cry when you dont instantly win against one with your kittened OP Condi spam spec

I’m really getting tired of your answers.

• When you’re against a bunker, you still have chances to kill him. It is all up to skills, not a single trait.
• Have you at least read what I’ve wrote? Conditions can be cleansed once AR kicks in. Once they are cleansed, there is nothing you can do.
• You know that regen is controlled by the engineer? Do you know, also, that you won’t be able to stack enough conditions to kill the engineer before AR kicks back in?

Stop that joke, jportell, seriously.
I’ve already stated that I think that conditions should be toned down. Why the kitten do you keep mentioning “OP condi spec”, or whatever, like I want faceroll everyone with conditions? I don’t even play conditions. I’ve refused to play condimancer since the last patch.

Really, you are looking just stupid and how you are getting angry shows how much that trait is broken, how you feel involved to protect it and keep abusing.
It was the same with the instagib thief combo. People felt incredibly involved, provided fictional counters and get angry to people proposing solutions.

This is sad.

Situational? So having a high burst spec on your team is now situational and not standard goooooo effing figure. And having a full cleanse then being put on an obscenely long CD will only make this trait useless and possibly push one more class out of the meta dominated by rangers necros and guardians

jportell.2197:

Situational? So having a high burst spec on your team is now situational and not standard goooooo effing figure. And having a full cleanse then being put on an obscenely long CD will only make this trait useless and possibly push one more class out of the meta dominated by rangers necros and guardians

What are you talking about?
I’ve said that “call a teammate” is not a counter, because it means “you can’t kill him, just move on”.

So what’s your point? According to you and most people in this topic, AR is useless and never used anyway.
Giving a full cleanse and limited condition immunity at 25% HP really gives a second chance against conditions, since it gives you all the time to heal back up.

Imagine you are against a Necro, it takes away 75% of your HP bar with conditions and chain fears. AR kicks in, all conditions are cleansed and you’re immune to conditions for 6-7 seconds. You have you kitten automagically saved and you have enough time to realize that you should heal back up. All automatic and passive, even a braindead is capable to succed with, just how you like it.

What’s the problem, then? Maybe it is because this new version can’t be abused? Oh…

Sorrow, like I said before. Right now, AR is the only hard counter to this condition madness spamming feast meta, whether it is a hard counter, a solution or not, it is the only thing we have. I do not mind AR getting changed for the better but ONLY when Condition be Tonned down.

Stealth.9324:

Sorrow, like I said before. Right now, AR is the only hard counter to this condition madness spamming feast meta, whether it is a hard counter, a solution or not, it is the only thing we have. I do not mind AR getting changed for the better but ONLY when Condition be Tonned down.

And when conditions are toned down you will see this trait return to obscurity.

jportell.2197:

Stealth.9324:

Sorrow, like I said before. Right now, AR is the only hard counter to this condition madness spamming feast meta, whether it is a hard counter, a solution or not, it is the only thing we have. I do not mind AR getting changed for the better but ONLY when Condition be Tonned down.

And when conditions are toned down you will see this trait return to obscurity.

By then, they will have the right to ask or nerf for AR trait. As I seen ATM, any nerf asking for AR is plain unreasonable and stupid.

In reality your change wouldn’t make this trait any better. It would destroy it because it would destroy engis ability to bunker they have no access to protection (limited). And terrible condition counter aside from this trait.

Stealth.9324:

By then, they will have the right to ask or nerf for AR trait. As I seen ATM, any nerf asking for AR is plain unreasonable and stupid.

Absolutely no.
AR is an unhealthy counter to conditions, as much as conditions are unhealthy now. There isn’t such thing as balancing priority or whatever you want to say and the fact that AR is completely stupid and exploitable is a complete different matter from the actual condition meta.

AR is exploitable and broken by itself and the fact that there is a condition-heavy meta right now isn’t a valid justification to its flaws.

Conditions should be toned down, of course, as I’ve already said multiple times, but we have the right to say that AR is exploitable and broken in any situation, regardless the meta.

Auto response REMOVES conditions applied BEFORE 25%? Since when?

Cyanide.7952:

Auto response REMOVES conditions applied BEFORE 25%? Since when?

Since never people are saying its OP because an engi may remove this conditions with elixir C once he is at 25%.

sorrow.2364:

What are you talking about?
I’ve said that “call a teammate” is not a counter, because it means “you can’t kill him, just move on”.

So what’s your point? According to you and most people in this topic, AR is useless and never used anyway.
Giving a full cleanse and limited condition immunity at 25% HP really gives a second chance against conditions, since it gives you all the time to heal back up.

Imagine you are against a Necro, it takes away 75% of your HP bar with conditions and chain fears. AR kicks in, all conditions are cleansed and you’re immune to conditions for 6-7 seconds. You have you kitten automagically saved and you have enough time to realize that you should heal back up. All automatic and passive, even a braindead is capable to succed with, just how you like it.

What’s the problem, then? Maybe it is because this new version can’t be abused? Oh…

No, because it would be a terrible trait, simply put. The enemy has full control over it. He just has to trigger it, even with a single bleeding at 25% hp, and condiburst the engineer later. Almost useless versus a single opponent, completely useless versus multiple opponents, and that’s despite being a grandmaster trait with a strict hp requirement on a medium hp class.
Also, since the engineer deal with enemies via sustained damage, he can’t do much in that timeframe. He would just delay his death – assuming the enemy is a full condition one. Otherwise he can die even before that – after all, there is still the direct damage.

Despite your whinings the trait is fine as it is, with the class as it is.
Obviously we already replied at this suggestion in an old thread, still you continue to propose this terrible change to nerf it into the ground.

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

What are you talking about?
I’ve said that “call a teammate” is not a counter, because it means “you can’t kill him, just move on”.

So what’s your point? According to you and most people in this topic, AR is useless and never used anyway.
Giving a full cleanse and limited condition immunity at 25% HP really gives a second chance against conditions, since it gives you all the time to heal back up.

Imagine you are against a Necro, it takes away 75% of your HP bar with conditions and chain fears. AR kicks in, all conditions are cleansed and you’re immune to conditions for 6-7 seconds. You have you kitten automagically saved and you have enough time to realize that you should heal back up. All automatic and passive, even a braindead is capable to succed with, just how you like it.

What’s the problem, then? Maybe it is because this new version can’t be abused? Oh…

No, because it would be a terrible trait, simply put. The enemy has full control over it. He just has to trigger it, even with a single bleeding at 25% hp, and condiburst the engineer later. Almost useless versus a single opponent, completely useless versus multiple opponents, and that’s despite being a grandmaster trait with a strict hp requirement on a medium hp class.
Also, since the engineer deal with enemies via sustained damage, he can’t do much in that timeframe. He would just delay his death – assuming the enemy is a full condition one. Otherwise he can die even before that – after all, there is still the direct damage.

Despite your whinings the trait is fine as it is, with the class as it is.
Obviously we already replied at this suggestion in an old thread, still you continue to propose this terrible change to nerf it into the ground.

Pretty much every other trait in this game works how I’ve proposed. Guess we have to buff all other traits which triggers on X HP because in your opinion those are underpowered? Jeez…

What makes engineer so special to the point that they have the right to have condition invulnerability at 25% hp via trait? Why don’t we give mesmer a trait like that instead? Their condition removals is less prominent compared to engineers. Why not Thieves? They have only a single condition removal trait.

Every “on X HP” trait works as a Death delayer. They are supposed to give you a second chance, not to win the match in your place, as you want them to behave.

Defy Pain should make you immune to physical damage under 25% health forever like Automated Response.

Daecollo.9578:

Defy Pain should make you immune to physical damage under 25% health forever like Automated Response.

Which no-one would care about in this meta because defy pain leaves you open to condi spam. Who cares if necro scepter AA hits for 0 because the bleeds are still ticking for 100+ per stack or burning for 500/s. Taking defy pain wouldn’t help warriors at all in this meta.

jportell.2197:

Daecollo.9578:

Defy Pain should make you immune to physical damage under 25% health forever like Automated Response.

Which no-one would care about in this meta because defy pain leaves you open to condi spam. Who cares if necro scepter AA hits for 0 because the bleeds are still ticking for 100+ per stack or burning for 500/s. Taking defy pain wouldn’t help warriors at all in this meta.

I don’t see why anyone plays warrior in the meta, besides Skull-Crack-Cheese build.

jportell.2197:

Which no-one would care about in this meta because defy pain leaves you open to condi spam. Who cares if necro scepter AA hits for 0 because the bleeds are still ticking for 100+ per stack or burning for 500/s. Taking defy pain wouldn’t help warriors at all in this meta.

It’s funny how you’re capable to argue against everything anyway.

Daecollo.9578:

jportell.2197:

Daecollo.9578:

Defy Pain should make you immune to physical damage under 25% health forever like Automated Response.

Which no-one would care about in this meta because defy pain leaves you open to condi spam. Who cares if necro scepter AA hits for 0 because the bleeds are still ticking for 100+ per stack or burning for 500/s. Taking defy pain wouldn’t help warriors at all in this meta.

I don’t see why anyone plays warrior in the meta, besides Skull-Crack-Cheese build.

Which is a great hard counter to the Condi meta. Mesmers and thieves don’t have the teleports to keep up with a stunlock warrior add berserkers stance sig of stamina and balanced stance/dolyak signet warriors maintain something they never had before. Heavy map presence.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Which no-one would care about in this meta because defy pain leaves you open to condi spam. Who cares if necro scepter AA hits for 0 because the bleeds are still ticking for 100+ per stack or burning for 500/s. Taking defy pain wouldn’t help warriors at all in this meta.

It’s funny how you’re capable to argue against everything anyway.

Its funny because you know every necro/spirit ranger and made engi would just laugh if a warriors defy pain was the entire time they were under 25% health.

sorrow.2364:

Pretty much every other trait in this game works how I’ve proposed. Guess we have to buff all other traits which triggers on X HP because in your opinion those are underpowered? Jeez…

Actually, this isn’t even true.
Desperate power, Bark skin, Enlargement haven’t got any cooldown, for example, and i’m just listing the ones who act under a certain treshhold on the user.
The ones who’ve got one are usually active effects, like giving a boon or some condition to the enemy. All things that would go haywire without that (cause balancing issues aside, staying at around 25% would process them repeatedly).

sorrow.2364:

What makes engineer so special to the point that they have the right to have condition invulnerability at 25% hp via trait? Why don’t we give mesmer a trait like that instead? Their condition removals is less prominent compared to engineers. Why not Thieves? They have only a single condition removal trait.

Medium hp/armor, lack of evades, no reliable access to protection, lack of stability, no “teleport” skills, reliable stealth only via combo fields. That means that we’re quite vulnerable to direct damage, so staying at less than 25% hp is a risk in itself for the engineer. And that’s exactly why the trait is balanced – it is good, but you’ve got to put yourself in danger to use it.
Cause not every enemy is a full condition one, despite what you’re making it seem.

Also, mesmers have actually got quite a number of condition removals as far as traits go. People just don’t use them cause of opportunity costs.
And regarding thieves, why don’t you say exactly what that trait does?
“one condition every three seconds from self while in stealth”
guess it is enough, for an adept major trait…

sorrow.2364:

Every “on X HP” trait works as a Death delayer. They are supposed to give you a second chance, not to win the match in your place, as you want them to behave.

And there is no second chance as you would want it to behave. Cause the engineer class deals mainly sustained damage – something that needs time to work. We aren’t warriors – we aren’t supposed to burst the enemy down.

Manuhell.2759:

Actually, this isn’t even true.
Desperate power, Bark skin, Enlargement haven’t got any cooldown, for example, and i’m just listing the ones who act under a certain treshhold on the user.
The ones who’ve got one are usually active effects, like giving a boon or some condition to the enemy. All things that would go haywire without that (cause balancing issues aside, staying at around 25% would process them repeatedly).

You can’t compare those trait to automated response. They don’t give immunity to something, they just reduce the effectiveness. If AR only reduced the duration of conditions by, let’s say, 50%, then the comparison stands and you would be right.

The only trait that can be really compared to AR is Defy Pain and the difference is clear.

Manuhell.2759:

Medium hp/armor, lack of evades, no reliable access to protection, lack of stability, no “teleport” skills, reliable stealth only via combo fields. That means that we’re quite vulnerable to direct damage, so staying at less than 25% hp is a risk in itself for the engineer. And that’s exactly why the trait is balanced – it is good, but you’ve got to put yourself in danger to use it.
Cause not every enemy is a full condition one, despite what you’re making it seem.

Also, mesmers have actually got quite a number of condition removals as far as traits go. People just don’t use them cause of opportunity costs.
And regarding thieves, why don’t you say exactly what that trait does?
“one condition every three seconds from self while in stealth”
guess it is enough, for an adept major trait…

You are still failing to see that what I’m pointing to be as a flaw to the trait is the permanent 100% immunity to something.

Still, Necromancer are in a worse position compared to Engineer. No mobility, no evades, no blocks, no vigor at all, no reliable access to stability, no stealth at all, light armor… and they are even considered as master of conditions by design, so AR makes more sense on Necromancers than on engineers.

About thieves, it is only that trait that removes conditions. Just one trait that removes max 2 conditions if you sit in stealth for 4s. I think they can use an AR-like trait better, uh?

You argument is laughable, really.

Manuhell.2759:

And there is no second chance as you would want it to behave. Cause the engineer class deals mainly sustained damage – something that needs time to work. We aren’t warriors – we aren’t supposed to burst the enemy down.

You have a second chance. If there wasn’t AR, you would be dead against the condition spec you’re facing. The AR version I’ve suggested gives you the time to heal back and cleanse conditions to be back again in the fight and to not make the same errors you made that almost killed you.

Not abusable, better working as a second-chance trait.
Why are you so in denial of a non-abusable but better version of the trait?

Huh, it never occurred to me when reading the trait’s tool tip that the “100%” was referring to the base duration of the conditions, and that any duration investment would be regarded as “over 100%”. Kind of seems like wishful thinking honestly.

Like Zone said, all it needs is an internal CD and it will be fine.

jportell.2197:

By you only. and only you have said that it’s bugged because it works against Cripple, immobilize and chill.

That’s not why it’s bugged. It’s bugged because condition duration doesn’t currently surpass Automated Response or Berserker Stance like it’s supposed to.

jportell.2197:

So the fact that necros can hard counter guards/mesmers/thieves/eles right now means balance is that bad then right? As it stands there are only 2 decent hard counters to this Condi spam meta. AR and a well played stunlock warrior

Necromancers don’t hard counter those classes, especially thieves and elementalists. They do soft counter guardians and mesmers, though.

More to the point, balance is bad, and necromancers are overpowered. But there’s a right way and a wrong way to go about fixing that balance; creating hard counters with no practical counterplay is the wrong way.

hackks.3687:

Huh, it never occurred to me when reading the trait’s tool tip that the “100%” was referring to the base duration of the conditions, and that any duration investment would be regarded as “over 100%”. Kind of seems like wishful thinking honestly.

Like Zone said, all it needs is an internal CD and it will be fine.

That’s how the developers explicitly said it should work in patch notes and various posts. It’s not wishful thinking.

Here’s how the mechanic was explained in the June 25 patch notes: “Berserker’s Stance: Increased the recharge to 60 seconds. Reduced the duration to 4 seconds. This stance now reduces incoming condition duration by 100%, so only modified conditions can get through.”

Lopez.7369:

hackks.3687:

Huh, it never occurred to me when reading the trait’s tool tip that the “100%” was referring to the base duration of the conditions, and that any duration investment would be regarded as “over 100%”. Kind of seems like wishful thinking honestly.

Like Zone said, all it needs is an internal CD and it will be fine.

That’s how the developers explicitly said it should work in patch notes and various posts. It’s not wishful thinking.

Here’s how the mechanic was explained in patch notes: “Berserker’s Stance: Increased the recharge to 60 seconds. Reduced the duration to 4 seconds. This stance now reduces incoming condition duration by 100%, so only modified conditions can get through.”

Interesting. And the same was said of Automated Response? Or was this only in reference to Berserker’s Stance? AR’s tool tip doesn’t say anything about “only modified conditions get though” but I could see how that might have been ‘accidentally’ omitted.

I haven’t seen any of the comments from the devs regarding either of these skills. would you possibly be able to link your source(s)?

If what you say is true, then yeah it’s bugged.

Thinking on it some more I might also argue that in addition to an ICD a skill duration should probably be implemented as well to AR. It should really be used for the purpose of securing a heal while under condi pressure, not endlessly face tanking condis while soaking up direct damage with protection, regen, and blast heals. And while we’re on the subject, Berserker’s Stance 8sec immunity feels too long as well. 5sec seems more appropriate, but should also come with a CD reduction to 45sec or so. It would be a slight improvement to the overall immunity up time while also shrinking the window in which a Warrior can deal near unstoppable damage.

It’s an old developer post, so I’m not going to be able to find it.

The Berserker Stance description is just how condition duration is supposed to work in general. For example, if I use food that gives me 40 percent more condition duration and my opponent uses food that reduces conditions on him by 40 percent, my conditions will last at 100 percent on him. If it was multiplicative, my conditions would last about 84 percent.

Same deal with traits: If a warrior picks up Dogged March — which reduces snares and immobilize by 33 percent — and I have 40 percent condition duration, my snares and immobilize will last 107 percent duration on him.

Putting that in the context of this conversation, there’s no reason anything should change when a trait’s condition duration reduction goes from 33 percent to 100 percent. It should work just as the rest of the game does.

With that said, I would prefer the system work sort of how you described: Automated Response gives full immunity to conditions, lasts 8 seconds and has a 60-second inner cooldown. That way Berserker Stance can logically remain in its current incarnation, as it should if warriors are to remain viable.

Lopez.7369:

hackks.3687:

Huh, it never occurred to me when reading the trait’s tool tip that the “100%” was referring to the base duration of the conditions, and that any duration investment would be regarded as “over 100%”. Kind of seems like wishful thinking honestly.

Like Zone said, all it needs is an internal CD and it will be fine.

That’s how the developers explicitly said it should work in patch notes and various posts. It’s not wishful thinking.

Here’s how the mechanic was explained in patch notes: “Berserker’s Stance: Increased the recharge to 60 seconds. Reduced the duration to 4 seconds. This stance now reduces incoming condition duration by 100%, so only modified conditions can get through.”

June 25th patch notes have the above stated. If you could Lopez edit your above post so I can delete this to save space.

Okay number 1. As per the wiki and actual experience throughout the game SINCE release.
Condition duration cannot be extended beyond 100%. What this means, is base duration is 0%. So when any class has a condition duration reduced by 100% it means that no condition modified or unmodified is getting through. I know what Anet stated on the update but it is not how these skills reflect in game. And knowing anet they will leave it as is or change the tooltip to match reality.

That being said the important thing to remember is that base condition duration is always at 0% Meaning when someone has a condition duration reduction of 100% nothing that is condition based will touch them zip zilch nada. Now this in its current implementation is NOT OP.

Reasons for this are:
It shows just how vastly imbalanced the meta is, when one trait or one skill are enough to shut down entire teams or more than one person. This trait/skill have been mainly unbuffed since release. Berserkers stance was nerfed then buffed once anet realized the beast they had let loose on june 25th. Aside from wording AR has not changed since release.

Now when these two things make it so that they can shut down your entire team comp. It is time to look at where team comps are getting the most of their damage from, and that is conditions. What this entails is that conditions clearly don’t have the risk/reward factor that power based builds do. And there in lies the problem.

There has never been a problem with either of these traits before this meta and if this meta ever gets adjusted you will see warriors running endure again more often than berserkers stance engis will drop off AR for other more useful traits or they will pick up hgh instead.

These things are not bugged and are working as intended until a developer comes in and states “hey, if you have x%duration then your conditions should still get through!” as it stands they haven’t said its bugged so we will take the role of “not a bug until someone of meaning says it is”

The meta is extremely imbalanced and favors condition heavy spammers more than anyone else. Right now the hard counters to it are very few and far between. These should not be touched until the condition meta is adjusted. Any change before that and you will see nothing but condi spamming necros/rangers/engis (not the ar kind)/warriors. With the only viable class for bunkering anymore being guardians and guardians alone.

Your explanation of condition mechanics is wrong, as I explained earlier in this thread.

Lopez.7369:

Your explanation of condition mechanics is wrong, as I explained earlier in this thread.

Conditions only need one stat to be effective not true for the power based builds of this game. This leaves condi specs to be able to heavily spec into defense while dishing out very good damage through what is being seen as “Condi burst” and be effective. Conditions are a very low risk high reward spec.

That has nothing to do with this thread.