Guild Wars 2

yeah i like this idea Backstab – Increase damage by 100%, costs 6 Initiatives even if you miss
If you land Backstab from behind, Backstab has 50% chance to instantly down an opponent ignoring opponent’s armor value , ignoring opponent’s remaining health but can we not make it like 90% chance?

Lol, you know stuff is becoming alarming when it’s hard to tell if op is being serious or not.

You can’t be serious

Yeah theif insta kills from stealth lol just keep resetting until you insta kill someone

Your April Fool’s cool down still has another 363 days mate.

ANet hire this man, pure genius

I have another brilliant idea, put all thieves in jail and game becomes more funny for all other players

bluri.2653:

yeah i like this idea Backstab – Increase damage by 100%, costs 6 Initiatives even if you miss
If you land Backstab from behind, Backstab has 50% chance to instantly down an opponent ignoring opponent’s armor value , ignoring opponent’s remaining health but can we not make it like 90% chance?

Hey bluri I would make it an AoE skill since this game is already an AoE mess

Bella Kim.4061:

Current State Thief =

Whether you play Staff or Dagger , 70% of damage comes from Autoattack

You dont believe me ? Go check your combat log and do the math.

Seriously , I am not joking , 70% of Thief’s damage comes from Autoattack

How did Thief become Autoattack spamming class ??

Let me explain what happened to Thieves , Read carefully =

October 2015 – Heart of Thorns came out , the New Elite Specs came out.

Celestial Druids , Celestial Tempests and other bunker builds reigned supreme for the first few months

Thief could not even leave a scratch on these monsters.

Even if Thief blows all cooldowns and blows all initiatives trying to bring their health down, they would just go back to their full health in few seconds.

Celestial Druids = “Hey Thief , did you just stab back of my neck with your dagger???., your dagger tickles” xD

Developers = “Hmmmm” “These New Elite Spec Bunker Builds are unkillable monsters” “How can we fix this??!!!”

Developers = "Oh!! I know!!! Let’s buff Thief’s Autoattack!!!! "

Developers = “If we touch other skills, it’s gonna get too complicated, so let’s just buff Autoattack!!!!” xD

January 26 2016 Game Update
Thief Autoattack Damage has been increased by 42%.
Before January 26 2016, Autoattack Speed is one sequence per 2.07 seconds.
After January 26 2016, Autoattack Speed is one sequence per 1.68 seconds.
Autoattack Speed got 23% Faster and 42% Stronger, this means Thief Autoattack does 75% more Damage Per Second.
And also, they took away all the tanky amulets such as Celestial , Soldier , etc.

Developers = “YAY!!!!!! We did it!!!” “Problem solved!!!!” “Let’s go home and drinks some beer” xD xD xD

Thief players = “YAY!!!!!!!!!! Now Thief Autoattack does 75% more Damage Per Second!!!” =D

Thief players = “Finally Thief is viable again !! Let’s Go SPAM 11111 !!!!!” xD

I am going be honest here.. , I did had fun with this Autoattack buff. Thank you Anet. =)

But But But.. relying on Autoattacks for doing damage is such a lazy design… =/

I want to UNBIND Weapon Skill #1 from my keyboard and still be able to do damage…

More than 70% of damage coming from Autoattack is such a LAZY design

Thief AA damage was buffed b/c they were useless in Raids. That’s right PvE was the determining factor on that one not PvP.

They also only buffed the 1st attack by 42%.

They also nerfed staff AA at a later date if I remember correctly (could be wrong though)

That doesn’t change the fact that it was a lazy attempt to solve the problem when what Thieves really needed was for Anet to reconsider the design of the class.

OriOri.8724:

That doesn’t change the fact that it was a lazy attempt to solve the problem when what Thieves really needed was for Anet to reconsider the design of the class.

In a 4 year old game….not happening

More risk and reward to thieves? I like this, although I think there needs to me some sanctions on stealth (like you reveal on hits that are avoided.) and probably longer reveal time to actually punish whiffs.

and probably Bask Venom can’t avoid blocks, because unblock able instant death steal backstab isn’t very fair or fun :/

The problem is what happens to the other thief builds? I’d prefer this type of design but it creates a lot of problems.

Would have made more sense if the design was built from the ground up.

OriOri.8724:

You can’t be serious

ehh some suggestion he makes are pretty good if you ask me ^^
and no the class doesnt need a reconsidering of its design its need changes to certain traitlines and value of traits and utility skills

I hope “about a day ago” means April’s Fools…

Kolly.9872:

bluri.2653:

yeah i like this idea Backstab – Increase damage by 100%, costs 6 Initiatives even if you miss
If you land Backstab from behind, Backstab has 50% chance to instantly down an opponent ignoring opponent’s armor value , ignoring opponent’s remaining health but can we not make it like 90% chance?

Hey bluri I would make it an AoE skill since this game is already an AoE mess

While we’re at it, just make it a global AoE since we will hit others with it eventually, may as well get it over with sooner.

bluri.2653:

yeah i like this idea Backstab – Increase damage by 100%, costs 6 Initiatives even if you miss
If you land Backstab from behind, Backstab has 50% chance to instantly down an opponent ignoring opponent’s armor value , ignoring opponent’s remaining health but can we not make it like 90% chance?

Don’t forget to carefully plan and position yourself for the follow up 222 it.

Bella Kim.4061:

If I were Anet developer, I would move some of the damage from auto attack into other skills.

There is a strong need to make Thief less about dropping down onto a target and just auto-attacking.

Concentrating all the damage into auto-attack feels like a mindless lazy design.

Auto-attack doesn’t cost any initiatives.

Auto-attack doesn’t have cool-downs.

Auto-attack pays nothing for doing damage.

Auto-attack risks nothing for doing damage.

Concentrating all the damage into auto-attack made Thief take less risk for less reward

Auto-attack needs NERF

Other skills needs BUFF

Make Thief utilize other skills for doing damage instead of just spamming 111.

Make Thief blow cool-downs/initiatives for doing damage.

Make Thief take more risk for more reward.

There does have to be a balance in need for auto. Take s/d for instance, if you put all the damage onto 3 what happens? 3 spam because it has evade, boonsteal, damage, and it’s unblockable when you get the second hit. Putting high damage on an auto isn’t a bad thing because then the player in question is forced to not be evading or stealing boons or something like that in return for doing damage and it let’s other skills actually have a strategic purpose other than “it’s the highest dps”.

Should autos crit for 4k and hit 5 times a second? No that’s bad design, but autos imo for thief should be one of the higher damage sources available. Not burst damage, sustained damage. (Had to clarify so people didn’t assume I was advocating 6k autos)

400% damage increase on weapon skills seems……high.

hell why not make it 600%

Bella Kim.4061:

Ario.8964:

There does have to be a balance in need for auto. Take s/d for instance, if you put all the damage onto 3 what happens? 3 spam because it has evade, boonsteal, damage, and it’s unblockable when you get the second hit. Putting high damage on an auto isn’t a bad thing because then the player in question is forced to not be evading or stealing boons or something like that in return for doing damage and it let’s other skills actually have a strategic purpose other than “it’s the highest dps”.

Should autos crit for 4k and hit 5 times a second? No that’s bad design, but autos imo for thief should be one of the higher damage sources available. Not burst damage, sustained damage. (Had to clarify so people didn’t assume I was advocating 6k autos)

This is my suggestion for Sword/Dagger

Current State Sword/Dagger (Power = 2225 , Target Armor = 2000)
1 Slice 822 , Slash 822 , Crippling Strike 1335 (Attack Speed = one sequence per 1.88 seconds)
2 Infiltrator Strike 770
3 Flanking Strike 809 , Larcenous Strike 1618
4 Dancing Dagger 617
5 Cloak and Dagger 1284
Stealth Tactical Strike 770

my suggestion for Sword/Dagger Thief
1 = Decrease damage by 66% , costs 1 Initiative per auto-attack
2 = Increase damage by 400% , costs 4 Initiatives
3 = Fine as it is
4 = Increase damage by 200% , Remove bouncing effect , Add 1 second Daze , If the dagger hits the target, Thief may teleport to the target , costs 5 Initiatives and teleporting costs 1 more Initiative
5 = Increase damage by 50% , Unblockable , Leaps to the target (ex: Heartseeker) , Leap range = 600
Stealth = Tactical Strike = Increase damage by 400% , costs 6 Initiatives even if you miss , If you hit from behind, Stuns target for 2 seconds and apply 20 stacks for Vulnerability for 2 seconds

Now let’s look at Dagger/Pistol

This is my suggestion for Dagger/Pistol

Current State Dagger/Pistol (Power = 2225 , Target Armor = 2000)
1 Double Strike 822 Wild Strike 874 Lotus Strike 1130 (Attack Speed = one sequence per 1.68 seconds.)
2 Heartseeker 1027 , 1541 , 2055
3 Shadow Shot 1349
4 Head Shot
5 Black Power
Stealth Backstab 1232 , 2466

my suggestion for Dagger/Pistol Thief
1 Decrease damage by 66% and Decrease attack speed by 33% , costs 1 Initiative per auto-attack
2 Increase damage by 100% , Leap Finisher has 50% chance to fail , costs 4 Initiatives
3 Remove Blind and Add 1 second Immobilize, costs 5 Initiatives
4 Fine as it is
5 Smoke Field duration lasts only 1 second (Heartseeker – Leap Finisher has 50% chance to fail)
Stealth = Backstab = Increase damage by 100%, costs 6 Initiatives even if you miss , If you land Backstab from behind, Backstab has 50% chance to instantly down an opponent

Why I made these suggestions ???

Concentrating all the damage into auto-attack feels like a mindless lazy design.
Auto-attack doesn’t cost any initiatives.
Auto-attack doesn’t have cool-downs.
Auto-attack pays nothing for doing damage.
Auto-attack risks nothing for doing damage.
Concentrating all the damage into auto-attack made Thief take less risk for less reward
Auto-attack needs NERF
Other skills needs BUFF
Make Thief utilize other skills for doing damage instead of just spamming 111.
Make Thief blow cool-downs/initiatives for doing damage.
Make Thief take more risk for more reward.

Using initiative to auto removes the whole concept of an auto unless you want to buff ini regen through the roof (I’m talking like 10 ini/sec)
I can get behind some damage nerfs to certain things and some functionality changes to skills but some of the stuff you proposed is over the top imo.

Nerfing 1 doesn’t mean destroying the functionality of the entire class. I’ve played enough on my thief to know where damage comes from and I’m not denying auto is a huge part of it but why shouldn’t it be? Would you rather see 2 or 3 spam thieves? Auto attacking should be a good source of damage because it offers nothing else, no evade, no blind, no port, etc. The other skills on the thief class should act as situational skills used for defense or utility, otherwise thief turns into the same thing every other class in this game is: wait for a skill to come off cd (Or ini to be regenerated) and spam it because it’s the best skill on the kit due to having cc, blind, conditions, 7k hit, evades, etc. (Exaggerated ofc) Damage and extra functionality shouldn’t all be on one skill or eventually that skill will become broken. It’s like if you made CnD unblockable, have a port, apply blind, and crit for 5k with 4 ini cost then that skill would be super broken whereas if you had it crit for 3k and apply blind for the same 4 ini then it would be a more situational skill only used to accomplish certain tasks and not being spammed for how op it behaves. That is why autos as a source of damage is a good thing. The thief has to balance their play around doing higher damage with their autos or playing it safe and using skills that have a defensive aspect to them (Staff and sword 3, dd 3, dp 3 and 5 etc.)

Its unfortunate that backstab is such a wasted skill. Why Back stab when you can Auto Attack or Staff 5. Backstab should be a big hitter, one of the biggest in the game. It takes positional platy unlike many other no brain skils in this game. I got excited when they first announced the back stab cd whiff making it harder to hit because i thought soon after they would increase the damage of back stab. I am still wait ing for the other foot to drop. XD

Bella Kim.4061:

Ario.8964:

Nerfing 1 doesn’t mean destroying the functionality of the entire class. I’ve played enough on my thief to know where damage comes from and I’m not denying auto is a huge part of it but why shouldn’t it be? Would you rather see 2 or 3 spam thieves? Auto attacking should be a good source of damage because it offers nothing else, no evade, no blind, no port, etc. The other skills on the thief class should act as situational skills used for defense or utility, otherwise thief turns into the same thing every other class in this game is: wait for a skill to come off cd (Or ini to be regenerated) and spam it because it’s the best skill on the kit due to having cc, blind, conditions, 7k hit, evades, etc. (Exaggerated ofc) Damage and extra functionality shouldn’t all be on one skill or eventually that skill will become broken. It’s like if you made CnD unblockable, have a port, apply blind, and crit for 5k with 4 ini cost then that skill would be super broken whereas if you had it crit for 3k and apply blind for the same 4 ini then it would be a more situational skill only used to accomplish certain tasks and not being spammed for how op it behaves. That is why autos as a source of damage is a good thing. The thief has to balance their play around doing higher damage with their autos or playing it safe and using skills that have a defensive aspect to them (Staff and sword 3, dd 3, dp 3 and 5 etc.)

Auto-attack = doesn’t cost any initiatives = pays nothing for doing damage = Spammable

Heartseeker = cost 3 initiatives = pays 3 initiatives for doing damage = Not spammable

My Simple Suggestion (forget about my previous suggestions) =

Dagger =

Auto-attack = Decrease damage by 66% and Decrease attack speed by 33%

Heartseeker = Increase damage by 100% , Remove Leap Finisher , costs 4 Initiatives

Just Change Weapon Skill 1 and Weapon Skill 2. Leave everything else.

Staff =

Auto-attack = Decrease damage by 66% and Decrease attack speed by 33%

Weakening Charge = Increase damage by 75% , costs 4 Initiatives

Just Change Weapon Skill 1 and Weapon Skill 2. Leave everything else.

Sword =

Auto-attack = Decrease damage by 50% and Decrease attack speed by 33%

Infiltrator’ Strike = Increase damage by 200% , costs 4 Initiatives

Just Change Weapon Skill 1 and Weapon Skill 2. Leave everything else.

Why?

You CAN SPAM Auto-attack because it doesn’t cost any initiatives, doesn’t have cool-downs, and pays nothing for doing damage.

You CANNOT SPAM Heartseeker because Heartseeker currently cost 3 initiatives.

But I suggest that Heartseeker should cost 4 Initiatives so that people CANNOT SPAM this.

You miss your auto-attack = you don’t lose anything.

This means you don’t risk anything for spamming auto-attack

You miss your Heartseeker = you waste your Initiatives.

This means you RISK wasting your Initiatives , every time you do Heartseeker.

But for the REWARD , Heartseeker damage is strong enough to kill your target with only a few strikes.

you take MORE RISK , you get MORE REWARD

This is how Thief/Rogue/Assassin class should be.

Just move some damage from Weapon Skill 1 to Weapon Skill 2. Leave everything else.

MORE RISK MORE REWARD

More cost =/= more reward. Spamming hs when it crits for 7k+ (Result of increasing the damage that much) is much less risky than autoing in the current state of the game. Or maybe the 1 shots you will experience from staff 2 steal combo will be more to your taste? Auto attack =/= spam, literally every game in the world has an auto attack, believe me the issue is not the presence of autos. Reducing damage by 15% on dagger and 10% on staff is a fine change but what you propose destroys the class. I’m going to assume you are trolling now and end my responses because arguing with trolls is a waste of my time.

I’d just be happy if they removed the CD on a failed stealth auto attack.

Let’s do it, but warrior gets 100% skill action from quickness

Cobrakon.3108:

Its unfortunate that backstab is such a wasted skill. Why Back stab when you can Auto Attack or Staff 5. Backstab should be a big hitter, one of the biggest in the game. It takes positional platy unlike many other no brain skils in this game. I got excited when they first announced the back stab cd whiff making it harder to hit because i thought soon after they would increase the damage of back stab. I am still wait ing for the other foot to drop. XD

It is a big hitter, when you have the right amount of stat points. But we can’t do anything with the current amulets since they’re very trashy to a thief and berserker just asks for 1 shot cc skill like headbutt on warrior to kill you instantly.

Giving backstab a huge initiative cost as well as a 5 sec cooldown when you miss isn’t adding any more risk to the thief, and just doubling the damage isn’t worth that.

And 50% chance to instantly down someone? I can’t believe you are still going with that nonsense.

Bella Kim.4061:

I think failed Backstab should go on 5-second-CD
and failed Backstab should waste 6 Initiatives

BUT IN RETURN

Backstab damage should be increase by 100%
Backstab from behind should have 50% chance to instantly down an opponent

Thief/Rogue/Assassin class should take MORE RISK for MORE REWARD

go stealth

Basilisk Venom

position behind target

do unblockable/stunning Heartseeker + Steal + Backstab combo from 1200 range

instakill every non full bunker build on a 19K HP marauder teef with tons of escape capability. (17K HP in sPvP, but since there are no bunker builds in that game mode, it’s a 100% kill, so nobody cares…)

Sounds perfectly balanced!

I have the solution, that is way better: remove elite specs from pvp.

While the thief has access to stealth and teleports what the thief needs is a nerf in pure spam autos… and thats all.

Backstab already hit for 15k in light armor, which is almost to down someone.

Thief needs a redesign so it stops being the class that spams from stealth, try to insta kill someone and if don’t succeed teleports away and resets.

Classes like that aren’t fun to fight against. Teleports should have higher initiative costs, so it can’t be used at any moment.
Autos should be nerfed in damage (not speed) and some other skills buffed in damage or initiative.

anduriell.6280:

While the thief has access to stealth and teleports what the thief needs is a nerf in pure spam autos… and thats all.

Backstab already hit for 15k in light armor, which is almost to down someone.

Thief needs a redesign so it stops being the class that spams from stealth, try to insta kill someone and if don’t succeed teleports away and resets.

Classes like that aren’t fun to fight against. Teleports should have higher initiative costs, so it can’t be used at any moment.
Autos should be nerfed in damage (not speed) and some other skills buffed in damage or initiative.

Please go make a thief and record some games in ranked where you hit for 15k backstabs consistently. I would even make a bet that if you would take recent Sind’s videos you wouldn’t find a single moment where his thief hit for 15k in a match and he is best active pvp thief on EU atm.

Teleports have CDs…. ini is also not infinite…. it is a CD. Ever heard of resource management?

On one hand you complain about backstab damage (which has absurd set up requirements), on other hand you ask to nerf AA and buff other skills which will lead them to be hardhitting as well and next thing you will do is complain about them as well. Thief is not even most hardhitting class in pvp atm however it is the squishiest so it just blows my mind that people ask glass canon not to deal damage.

He ran away? Be happy, the point is yours now. Pvp in this game is about points, not duels. Same goes for stealth – stealthed thief doesn’t cap/contest anything -> easier caps for you.

You want thief not to use stealth, not to teleport, not to deal damage – what should thief do then? Lie down and die?

Year ago, before AA buffs, thief was in the state you are asking for. Guess what happened? Nobody played the class besides very few hipsters (there was literary like 2 thieves in legend division all together). And those who did play it got flamed, griefed and constantly reported for not rerolling other class.
Every player that has 0 clue about the class wants thief nerfed but none of them want thieves on their team when the class is not doing so well or stacked. What a joke.

i very rarly see 15k bs in wvw unless someone is core/signet d/d which once a blue moon let alone in spvp lol. think the avg is 7k on a class with 0 defence boons/buff’s which nearly everyone has except thief (well ok, -10% from dash)

Fat Disgrace.4275:

i very rarly see 15k bs in wvw unless someone is core/signet d/d which once a blue moon let alone in spvp lol. think the avg is 7k on a class with 0 defence boons/buff’s which nearly everyone has except thief (well ok, -10% from dash)

Funny, most marauder thieves will hit my mesmer for 10k with backstab in WvW, in fact it’s rare for me to see anything like a 7k hit unless it didn’t crit. Though follow up auto attacks will do 5k+ in less than 1s so if you’re not quick on the stunbreak/blocks you will be going down. Granted SPvP you’re not likely to see numbers as high but then again they removed all but 1 amulet with toughness and vitality so I guess it balances out.

Personally I think making the skills more powerful/useful but adding short cool downs 1-5s might benefit thieves in general by reducing the spammability of strong skills and combos. It would also soft counter stealth camping reducing DP dominance and allow for stronger skills on other weapon sets for survivability while still retaining the more frequent use of effective skills aspect of thief.

We all found out very early on that rev was way too strong having strong skills and only a resource cost with no cool down and the cost was in line with thief cost for skills mostly. It stands to reason that if thief wants stronger skills they must not be allowed to spam as much or pay with higher cost, the latter being something I don’t think anyone wants to see. I know some people will say it’s not a problem as thief has been like this since launch but thief skills have always been a balancing nightmare where if a skill was made really good it was spammed till it was nerfed or too weak to be of any use mostly just as some of the ludicrous cool down reductions on other classes have been balance issues.

apharma.3741:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

i very rarly see 15k bs in wvw unless someone is core/signet d/d which once a blue moon let alone in spvp lol. think the avg is 7k on a class with 0 defence boons/buff’s which nearly everyone has except thief (well ok, -10% from dash)

Funny, most marauder thieves will hit my mesmer for 10k with backstab in WvW, in fact it’s rare for me to see anything like a 7k hit unless it didn’t crit. Though follow up auto attacks will do 5k+ in less than 1s so if you’re not quick on the stunbreak/blocks you will be going down. Granted SPvP you’re not likely to see numbers as high but then again they removed all but 1 amulet with toughness and vitality so I guess it balances out.

Personally I think making the skills more powerful/useful but adding short cool downs 1-5s might benefit thieves in general by reducing the spammability of strong skills and combos. It would also soft counter stealth camping reducing DP dominance and allow for stronger skills on other weapon sets for survivability while still retaining the more frequent use of effective skills aspect of thief.

We all found out very early on that rev was way too strong having strong skills and only a resource cost with no cool down and the cost was in line with thief cost for skills mostly. It stands to reason that if thief wants stronger skills they must not be allowed to spam as much or pay with higher cost, the latter being something I don’t think anyone wants to see. I know some people will say it’s not a problem as thief has been like this since launch but thief skills have always been a balancing nightmare where if a skill was made really good it was spammed till it was nerfed or too weak to be of any use mostly just as some of the ludicrous cool down reductions on other classes have been balance issues.

- WvW numbers come nowhere near pvp numbers simply due to external buffs (e.g. food), stats and gear variety. Fact is, you will not see 15k backstabs in pvp matches (unless someone runs one shot signet thief and all stars align (25 might stacks, 25 vuln stacks, no protections, no dmg redux, extra dmg multiplies etc.)), period.

- THIEF SPELLS ALREADY HAVE COOLDOWN, IT IS CALLED INI COSTS – why do people don’t get it in their head is beyond me. Ini takes TIME to regenerate, sole reason why thieves resort to AA most of the time because other spells are so costy, don’t deal enough dmg and you might end up being dead really quickly if you actually waste those. Let’s also not forget that ini is global resource – it is not like for other classes, that can switch weapon and have new set of spells ready to use. Thief spells are already balanced around their so called “spammability” otherwise things like sb5 would deal 10k – is this what you want? Because this what will happen if changes that you ask for were implemented. They already attempted to do it with rev – they turned out to be stupidly overtuned until they got nerfed into oblivion. It simply doesn’t work. Also, the jokes on you, revs highest dmg comes from AA as well.

- Nerfing d/p wouldn’t accomplish anything but force everyone into staff. Other weapons sets are just poorly designed and complete overhaul simply won’t happen. They would have better survivability if you add CDs to them? From what? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what nonsense.
D/p is dominant because it is versatile and offers utility, stealth in conquest is often counter-productive otherwise we would see ghost thieves everywhere. But noooo, we come with our WvW mentality to pvp forums and ask to nerf class that we obviously have no clue about.

apharma.3741:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

i very rarly see 15k bs in wvw unless someone is core/signet d/d which once a blue moon let alone in spvp lol. think the avg is 7k on a class with 0 defence boons/buff’s which nearly everyone has except thief (well ok, -10% from dash)

Funny, most marauder thieves will hit my mesmer for 10k with backstab in WvW, in fact it’s rare for me to see anything like a 7k hit unless it didn’t crit. Though follow up auto attacks will do 5k+ in less than 1s so if you’re not quick on the stunbreak/blocks you will be going down. Granted SPvP you’re not likely to see numbers as high but then again they removed all but 1 amulet with toughness and vitality so I guess it balances out.

Personally I think making the skills more powerful/useful but adding short cool downs 1-5s might benefit thieves in general by reducing the spammability of strong skills and combos. It would also soft counter stealth camping reducing DP dominance and allow for stronger skills on other weapon sets for survivability while still retaining the more frequent use of effective skills aspect of thief.

We all found out very early on that rev was way too strong having strong skills and only a resource cost with no cool down and the cost was in line with thief cost for skills mostly. It stands to reason that if thief wants stronger skills they must not be allowed to spam as much or pay with higher cost, the latter being something I don’t think anyone wants to see. I know some people will say it’s not a problem as thief has been like this since launch but thief skills have always been a balancing nightmare where if a skill was made really good it was spammed till it was nerfed or too weak to be of any use mostly just as some of the ludicrous cool down reductions on other classes have been balance issues.

may be i didnt explain my self properly. i meant that the avg bs in spvp is around 7k. and aif you#re taking that sort dmg from autos then you’re full glass too so it make sense.

back on topic now.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

apharma.3741:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

i very rarly see 15k bs in wvw unless someone is core/signet d/d which once a blue moon let alone in spvp lol. think the avg is 7k on a class with 0 defence boons/buff’s which nearly everyone has except thief (well ok, -10% from dash)

Funny, most marauder thieves will hit my mesmer for 10k with backstab in WvW, in fact it’s rare for me to see anything like a 7k hit unless it didn’t crit. Though follow up auto attacks will do 5k+ in less than 1s so if you’re not quick on the stunbreak/blocks you will be going down. Granted SPvP you’re not likely to see numbers as high but then again they removed all but 1 amulet with toughness and vitality so I guess it balances out.

Personally I think making the skills more powerful/useful but adding short cool downs 1-5s might benefit thieves in general by reducing the spammability of strong skills and combos. It would also soft counter stealth camping reducing DP dominance and allow for stronger skills on other weapon sets for survivability while still retaining the more frequent use of effective skills aspect of thief.

We all found out very early on that rev was way too strong having strong skills and only a resource cost with no cool down and the cost was in line with thief cost for skills mostly. It stands to reason that if thief wants stronger skills they must not be allowed to spam as much or pay with higher cost, the latter being something I don’t think anyone wants to see. I know some people will say it’s not a problem as thief has been like this since launch but thief skills have always been a balancing nightmare where if a skill was made really good it was spammed till it was nerfed or too weak to be of any use mostly just as some of the ludicrous cool down reductions on other classes have been balance issues.

may be i didnt explain my self properly. i meant that the avg bs in spvp is around 7k. and aif you#re taking that sort dmg from autos then you’re full glass too so it make sense.

back on topic now.

My mistake about the 7k BS, still like I say the number of amulets that add toughness and vitality is 1 which means a lot of classes are essentially glass in PvP if you don’t have protection up. I don’t think a 7k BS is a bad number in PvP though but wouldn’t want to see it go to the heights of 10k as we start getting to the realms of everyone exploding.

On topic, as I say I think small cool downs (1-5s) added to thief skills to prevent back to back spamming but increasing their effectiveness and in some cases power would benefit the class immensely across the game. At the moment and since the game started any skill that’s great on thief gets nerfed as it can be spammed back to back.

And what would you increase as far as “effectiveness” goes? Give some examples~

Cynz.9437:

And what would you increase as far as “effectiveness” goes? Give some examples~

Maybe you could help move this conversation forward. How about you give apharma (and everyone else reading this thread) some examples of what you think would be a good change to a few skills in exchange for giving them a short CD (again 1-5 seconds like apharma suggested, nothing more)? This way it turns into an actual conversation. Personally, I’m in favor of giving thief weapon skills very short CDs (think anywhere between 1/4 seconds and 4 seconds) in exchange for lowering their initiative cost and/or buffing some skills. This would reduce mindless spam of the same skill over and over again, and could also allow a thief to use all 5 weapon skills back to back, like every other class currently can, if they felt the need to do so.

But again, how about you give some examples of what you think would be good tradeoffs for giving a skill a short CD.

It could be fun too if DH slams Thief with Mighty blow from behind and deal dmg equal of users HP and insta killing hes opponent.

i have started to play other class’s and although i am pretty much a noob on them, i am starting to see the other side of the thief. thief is a very selfish class that can really only look after it self. depending on skill lvl of both theif and opponents it is a mix of how easy it is to shake of a thief – how hard it is to stay alive. although i do not play spvp much any more, i do play a lot of wvw roaming and although theres are different game modes, the class’s still remain the same and i can say now, if your a built and have knowlage of a thief it isnt as bad as people make them out to be… I REPEAT thief is designed to be a selfish and solo class, so if you’re caught of guard, then the thief has won.

i can not reason with non thief’s as they do no understand, but i dont think they need a nerf at this point, not when most other class’ have a lot of passive defensive procs while dealing just as much dps as a thief toe to toe.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

i have started to play other class’s and although i am pretty much a noob on them, i am starting to see the other side of the thief. thief is a very selfish class that can really only look after it self. depending on skill lvl of both theif and opponents it is a mix of how easy it is to shake of a thief – how hard it is to stay alive. although i do not play spvp much any more, i do play a lot of wvw roaming and although theres are different game modes, the class’s still remain the same and i can say now, if your a built and have knowlage of a thief it isnt as bad as people make them out to be… I REPEAT thief is designed to be a selfish and solo class, so if you’re caught of guard, then the thief has won.

i can not reason with non thief’s as they do no understand, but i dont think they need a nerf at this point, not when most other class’ have a lot of passive defensive procs while dealing just as much dps as a thief toe to toe.

Yeah playing other classes can be an eye opener especially when you run into different builds to what you usually run on your main.

To clarify I am not for nerfing thief just trying to turn what was a very poorly thought out thread into something a bit more constructive. You look at thief weapon pairing and it’s a mess sometimes, offhand dagger is a power weapon but does very little on the 4 and 5 for condi other than grant stealth and 3+4 are kinda meh on a power build. If you make them strong skills they will just be spammed till they get nerfed again which is where the problem lies.

Adding small cool downs can reduce the spam allowing for reductions in cost and increase in utility. Dancing dagger getting a damage buff of upto 50% and applying 3-4 poison making it good on both power and condition builds. Shortbow 5 reduced to 4 cost, granting 2s stealth but having a cool down of say 4-5s would trim down how insane mobility is while opening the door for the rest of the skills to increase in damage and conditions dealt. It gives the devs the ability to make skills impactful without worrying too much about it becoming a crutch.

The idea is to give as much as you end up taking, the issue many have is they simply don’t trust the devs to give enough so it doesn’t end up being a nerf. It still doesn’t mean ideas should be completely dismissed because of that though.

Pure genius, with that skill setup i can finally play a nomad thief and instant kill everyone.

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

And what would you increase as far as “effectiveness” goes? Give some examples~

Maybe you could help move this conversation forward. How about you give apharma (and everyone else reading this thread) some examples of what you think would be a good change to a few skills in exchange for giving them a short CD (again 1-5 seconds like apharma suggested, nothing more)? This way it turns into an actual conversation. Personally, I’m in favor of giving thief weapon skills very short CDs (think anywhere between 1/4 seconds and 4 seconds) in exchange for lowering their initiative cost and/or buffing some skills. This would reduce mindless spam of the same skill over and over again, and could also allow a thief to use all 5 weapon skills back to back, like every other class currently can, if they felt the need to do so.

But again, how about you give some examples of what you think would be good tradeoffs for giving a skill a short CD.

I don’t see how it would be a good change so there is no need to make any suggestions how to make up for the unndeeded nerfs.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Ifi see you whine about powercreep in other threads , i will bite and scratch you day and night :P
Thats a promish :P

I see no issue with DD getting nerfed if all other elites get nerfed. This guy wants core nerfed to oblivion and i am not ok with it. Do you really think that core thief spec needs nerf right now?

Revenants auto attacks after HoT had the same attack speed and damage as the Thiefs dagger and they butchered it by placing a 0,5 cast time and lowering their dps
That is OBLIVION :p

Because the autos attacks have such a low animation and speed it can be used between your rotation/spells to boost your damage trementously , you are free to protect your class and ‘’wink wink’’ in the Devs that that kind of damage is ok and highllights the GW2 engines and showcase beautiful skillplay in the Youtube ….

but DONT WHINE ABOUT POWERCREEP , becuase if that TTK is acceptable by the community and becomes the ’’normal’’ , then EVERY FUTURE SPECIALIZATION WILL DEPEND TO DO THE SAME DAMAGE OR BEEING TOUGHT ENOUGHT TO HANDLE THAT BURST (2013-2016)

Choose one or the other…..
Protect your class , or protect the future

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Revenants auto attacks after HoT had the same attack speed and damage as the Thiefs dagger and they butchered it by placing a 0,5 cast time and lowering their dps
That is OBLIVION :p

Because the autos attacks have such a low animation and speed it can be used between your rotation/spells to boost your damage trementously , you are free to protect your class and ‘’wink wink’’ in the Devs that that kind of damage is ok and highllights the GW2 engines and showcase beautiful skillplay in the Youtube ….

but DONT WHINE ABOUT POWERCREEP , becuase if that TTK is acceptable by the community and becomes the ’’normal’’ , then EVERY FUTURE SPECIALIZATION WILL DEPEND TO DO THE SAME DAMAGE OR BEEING TOUGHT ENOUGHT TO HANDLE THAT BURST (2013-2016)

Choose one or the other…..
Protect your class , or protect the future

Revs are heavy armor class with way high HP pool than thieves. They also have access to blocks, evades, regen, stab and double heal. Thief doesn’t have any of that (or very limited access that meta builds don’t run anyway). Let’s not compare apples or oranges.
Once again, remove elite specs from pvp and balance core from there. If AA nerf is needed after that then so should it be. But this is not what all this mesmer mains that don’t even play the thief class suggest here – they just ask for plain nerf of one class that is not even overperforming atm.

Cynz.9437:

Revs are heavy armor class with way high HP pool than thieves. They also have access to blocks, evades, regen, stab and double heal. Thief doesn’t have any of that (or very limited access that meta builds don’t run anyway). Let’s not compare apples or oranges.
Once again, remove elite specs from pvp and balance core from there. If AA nerf is needed after that then so should it be. But this is not what all this mesmer mains that don’t even play the thief class suggest here – they just ask for plain nerf of one class that is not even overperforming atm.

Thiefs get more dodges and more evades frames to various weapon skills and benefit more from vigor via traits and restore endurance when dodge compared to any other class classes while dishing damage
..and on top of that if you attack them , while they have their evade frames any condition is removed (with a trait)
Even if the Elites specs is removed then , still the combat have the same TTK ….
Hot specs does the same damage with the vanilia … they are based on it …
atleast more spells are needed to combo each other to do much damage than the vanilia one

still its not the same dificulty lvl asGurdians old spec :
Shield of Wrath>Chains of Light>Symbol of Punishment>Mighty Blow (while doing Judge’s Intervention)>activate Virtue of Justice .
Or hugly telegraphed like Ranger’s Maul

Edit: Lets not go in round and round conversations about who is playing vanilia specs in this thread , because my memory is not very good about Pulmonary Impact (spamm Headshot) or how easily Smite pirate songs powned easily other pirate characters :P

Usually I’m not one to agree with Cynz, but I don’t think you read what they wrote.

The Daredevil is pretty much the sole source of your problems, which they advocated shouldn’t be where balance is based off of – elites shouldn’t be the baseline.

The benefits you’re describing come from four different trait lines mixed with what are widely considered as trash weapons. The lone exception of an evade-heavy kit that isn’t godawful is the staff. The rest of the kits are inferior or downright no-good.

And HoT specs deal WAY more damage than vanilla, sorry. I think the thief is the lone exception which only loses a few percent. The rest have astronomical gains either in DPS or PvP burst/damage uptime.

Most of the problems with the game right now are design-level, often leading to un-fun gameplay scenarios (Daredevil evasion/forgiving nature compared to core + passives in reworked Acro, 450 range Arc Divider, Mesmer’s over-dependency on shatters, DH damage negation uptime, Warrior/Scrapper’s passives, Druid’s raw sustain, reaper’s condition access/application capability and durability, etc.)

People still do not grasp the concept of Initiative as opposed to Cooldowns. They seem to think that somehow the INI system makes all thief attacks "free and usable at will’.

YES a thief can spam a given skill but this results in him lacking the ability to use other skills in EITHER weaponset. If I am on my warrior and have 3 of my 4 skills outside the AA on cooldown, I switch to the other weaponset and can use 4 more NON AA skills.

If I burned off all of my INI on a thief using headshot 8 of my skills are in essence on cooldown and unusable even if I have never used them. The AA had better do something significant.

When playing a thief in order to play it well you have to manage that initiative and by the same token when playing against a thief you should be able to recognize when they will be low on the same and forced to break off or rely on the AA. As a thief playing against a thief I try and be aware just how much INI that thief has burned as I am aware of my own.

This in part is what makes thief one of the more interesting classes for me to play. It not OP as a class design. It does very well at doing what was intended for the class to do , that is be evasive and hard to hit while being fragile yet able to string together bursts of high damage attacks at the expense of other resources.

Any issues wih thief are not with its mechanics and the INI system. Cooldowns are not warranted on skills. This will just break the profession and make it yet more generic. The only real issues is what the Elite line of traits have done to the class and this issue exists to some extent across the board with all professions.

I doubt there will be going back and stuffing that genie back into the bottle . I am hopeful that when another elite line added (It my understanding one can only choose one elite line) it different enough from DD that it works better with different core traits lines and that this leads to those Core lines becoming more relevant. With the elite line being all but must haves in too many builds, having ONLY one of those lines dramatically cuts build diversity.

How to make thief more fun … Easy, bring back Ricochet trait and Hastened Replenishment trait. problem solved.