Guild Wars 2

-THE PROBLEM IN GW2 RIGHT NOW-
If we have 15 stacks of Burning, 2 stacks of Bleeding and 1 stack of Vulnerability and we use a skill that clears 1 condition, very often we will clear that 1 stack of vulnerability instead of those 15 stacks of lethal burning.
Another example would be this: if we are Immobilized and we have 1 stack of Bleeding and 3 stacks of Vulnerability our priority is to remove that immobilize, but very often we will clear Bleeding or Vulberability, rimaining Immobilized.
This system promotes free “ticks” of damaging condies and powerful cc’s like Immobilize.
Obviously we don’t want conditions become useless, so, here are my proposals:

-CLASSIFICATIONS-
First of all, we should make a distinction between:

-Damaging Conditions: Burning, Torment, Confusion, Bleeding, Poison;
-Non-Damaging Conditions: Vulnerability, Weakness, Blind, Slow, Taunt, Fear;
-Movement-Impeding Conditions: Cripple, Chill, Immobilize;

At this point the condition-removal should be adapted to these 3 classifications.

EXAMPLE:

“Shake it off!”: Cure a condition on yourself and nearby allies. Also breaks stuns.

will become

“Shake it off!”: Cure a Damaging Condition and a Movement-impeding Condition on yourself and nearby allies. Also breaks stuns.

Simple,right? Another example can be:

Cleansing Wave: Heal yourself and nearby allies, curing a condition.

can be

Cleansing Wave: Heal yourself and nearby allies, curing a Damaging Condition.

And so on….

Therefore there will be very useful skills/traits to remove Damaging Conditions, other skills/traits very useful to remove Movement-Impeding conditions and other skills/traits perfect for Non-Damaging Conditions.

-CONDITION PRIORITY-
Another important thing is the “condition removal priority”. If we have 10 stacks of burning and 2 stacks of Torment of course we want to remove the Burning. This is why conditions should be removed in order of “dangerousness”. This will include the base damage of the condition and the number of stacks, of course.

1 stack of Burning is more damage than 1 stack of Bleeding SO a skill that removes a Damaging Condition will remove the Burning.
1 stack of Burning is less damage than 10 stacks of Bleeding SO a skill that removes a Damaging Condition will remove the Bleeding.

In my opinion this will promote less condi spam, especially in pvp and roaming, and more reliant condition removals for everyone.

-RESISTANCE BOON-
Resistance: "Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration. "

can be

“Damaging-Conditions and Movement-Impeding Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration. "

This means that you are still maintaining a good defense against condies, but you can also be taunted or feared if you are not running with Stability. This seems right to me.

What do you guys think about these ideas?

Better condi clear..I’m all for it but how to force devs to take the initiative?

Covering your condis with other condis is considered being skillful, i think the real problem is the damage thats coming outta conditions, to much burst not enough damage over time.

I approve this. It will make a good necro able to at least put up a fight on a 1v1 vs a warrior for example.
Also this is already kinda online with stuff like the Withdraw (Healing skill from Thief). It will promote less condi skills spam since the most damaging condis can be cleansed right away and with the resistance you can still be crowd controlled, so resistance isnt the 100% direct counter to condi builds.

If the OP’s suggestion went through condi builds would be worthless in PvP. Condi builds would have no real damage application and would be straight outclassed by power builds.

But whatever condi builds aren’t even strong except for warriors and mesmers. Obviously the most underused build type needs to be nerfed right?

Crinn.7864:

otetas.9675:

so resistance isnt the 100% direct counter to condi builds.

Except necros because fear is a condi.

Resistance : “Damaging-Conditions and Movement-Impeding Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration. "
Non-Damaging Conditions: Vulnerability, Weakness, Blind, Slow, Taunt, Fear;
Its in the OP if you actually read it

I like the proposals..

Can I make an alternative suggestion?

I propose that whenever you clear a condition you cannot be affected by the same condition (from any enemy) for 3 seconds. (the condition will not be applied to you). This will stop you from using your condi clear only to be spammed with condi again and will make the condi players think about what he’s doing and also try and bait your condi clears early.

Eg. I get hit by torment and I use my clear. No enemy can apply confusion on me for 3 sec. Other condi will still work.

This rule will apply whether you clear your condi yourself or an ally clears the condi for you.

Can we nerf power damage as well then?

otetas.9675:

Crinn.7864:

otetas.9675:

so resistance isnt the 100% direct counter to condi builds.

Except necros because fear is a condi.

Resistance : “Damaging-Conditions and Movement-Impeding Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration. "
Non-Damaging Conditions: Vulnerability, Weakness, Blind, Slow, Taunt, Fear;
Its in the OP if you actually read it

even the ninja edit wasn’t fast enough :/

OP’s suggestion is still stupid and would essentially destroy condi as a viable playstyle.

Crinn.7864:

even the ninja edit wasn’t fast enough :/

OP’s suggestion is still stupid and would essentially destroy condi as a viable playstyle.

Condi would still be played. When you apply condi your already doing direct damage, not every skill would be able to clean damaging condis, so the opponent would need to carefully decide when to use his damaging condi clean, meanhwhile you could kite with movement condis (like how the terrormancer from 3 years ago worked). I always thought condi would be damage over time and not direct compete with burst damage. So the point would be balancing all condi clean skills to this condi overhaul.

shagwell.1349:

Can we nerf power damage as well then?

Sure…..lots of people including myself have asked for a rollback of the insane power (power/condi) creep since HOT release.

otetas.9675:

When you apply condi your already doing direct damage,

You’re right condi builds would still be applying damage.
It would just be a totally inferior amount of damage.

I’m sorry but there is way too much cleanse running around in this game to allow any kind of smart cleansing.

How about removing power damage from skills that give conditions.

Stiofan.6720:

How about removing power damage from skills that give conditions.

Well warrior greatsword applies vuln so I guess we should remove it’s damage. Oh and if you’re running arms and/or sigils it can apply bleed too, so I guess warrior greatsword definitely shouldn’t be dealing power damage.

In seriousness removing power damage from condi builds would be a 25% to 40% damage nerf. Condi builds would lose damage competitiveness and would not be taken for any serious content.

The problem with the suggestions in this thread is that they all assume that condi builds are unilaterally overpowered. Which is completely false.

I like the line of thoughts op has.

lol @ the person saying its skill to cover conditions, ya know except the part where builds can blob 5+ condi in less than a second.

Justine.6351:

I like the line of thoughts op has.

lol @ the person saying its skill to cover conditions, ya know except the part where builds can blob 5+ condi in less than a second.

The dodge button

It’s a thing

Crinn.7864:

Justine.6351:

I like the line of thoughts op has.

lol @ the person saying its skill to cover conditions, ya know except the part where builds can blob 5+ condi in less than a second.

The dodge button

It’s a thing

Well so long as it exists, I guess everything offensive ingame has always been balanced as dodge has always been a thing.

Justine.6351:

I like the line of thoughts op has.

lol @ the person saying its skill to cover conditions, ya know except the part where builds can blob 5+ condi in less than a second.

i also said “to much burst not enough damage over time.” take away that burst and make conditions legitimate damage over time like they used to be then all of a sudden cover conditions is a skillful thing.

ukuni.8745:

i also said “to much burst not enough damage over time.” take away that burst and make conditions legitimate damage over time like they used to be then all of a sudden cover conditions is a skillful thing.

The only condi builds with any kind of burst are condi chrono, p/p engi, and burn guard.

And 2 of those builds aren’t even remotely viable.

@ Crinn
You’re definitely one of those who plays condicancer. You are defending your playstyle and I can understand very well your point of view since I play condi with certain classes aswell.
But let’s say it like it is: look at WvW roaming for example.Trailbrazer chrono, with Perplexity Runes maybe, and condi duration food. Many people just avoid them because they are the most annoying broken cancer in the game. 15+ stacks of confusion + random condis for 10+ seconds oneshotting you if you try to press 2-3 skills. Loads of blocks, invulns, teleport and evades since this is not enough.

PvP? Warrior pressing the elite skill with Kraith Runes: AoE torment, bleeding and poison AoE for 8 seconds, regardless if it hits the enemy or not. Then f2 with mace, other 4 condis, then weapon swap, longbow burning,immobilize,bleeding, and more burning, weapon swap again and repeat.
That’s just an example, we have necros and mesmers that can apply an insane quantity of different conditions just pressing 1 skill. Most of the time those skills are AoE. Spam and more spam. Like you on this post, basically.

The fact that the meta right now is mostly power-type damage means nothing, the devs can change to a condi-meta even tomorrow if they want, and the current condi cleanse system that gw2 has is not efficent since we can’t cleanse the conditions that we want in a certain situation. Cleanses are just "random"in this game, this is why in my opinion we need a more active-logical condi cleanse system. Obviously many things would be modified to obtain the right-balance beetween damaging, non-damaging and movement-impeding condi cleanses since, as i have already mentioned, I don’t want to delete the condi-type damage from the game. Just less condi spam s***t.

kappa.2036:

@ Crinn
You’re definitely one of those who plays condicancer. You are defending your playstyle and I can understand very well your point of view since I play condi with certain classes aswell.
But let’s say it like it is: look at WvW roaming for example.Trailbrazer chrono, with Perplexity Runes maybe, and condi duration food. Many people just avoid them because they are the most annoying broken cancer in the game. 15+ stacks of confusion + random condis for 10+ seconds oneshotting you if you try to press 2-3 skills. Loads of blocks, invulns, teleport and evades since this is not enough.

PvP? Warrior pressing the elite skill with Kraith Runes: AoE torment, bleeding and poison AoE for 8 seconds, regardless if it hits the enemy or not. Then f2 with mace, other 4 condis, then weapon swap, longbow burning,immobilize,bleeding, and more burning, weapon swap again and repeat.
That’s just an example, we have necros and mesmers that can apply an insane quantity of different conditions just pressing 1 skill. Most of the time those skills are AoE. Spam and more spam. Like you on this post, basically.

The fact that the meta right now is mostly power-type damage means nothing, the devs can change to a condi-meta even tomorrow if they want, and the current condi cleanse system that gw2 has is not efficent since we can’t cleanse the conditions that we want in a certain situation. Cleanses are just "random"in this game, this is why in my opinion we need a more active-logical condi cleanse system. Obviously many things would be modified to obtain the right-balance beetween damaging, non-damaging and movement-impeding condi cleanses since, as i have already mentioned, I don’t want to delete the condi-type damage from the game. Just less condi spam s***t.

All of WvW’s problems with condi would be solved by simply removing trailblazer, dire, and perplexity runes. But the devs have some weird obsession with putting WvW on a PvE gearing system, and as such WvW is doomed to being perpetually broken.

Condi warrior does do lots of damage. And so does power warrior. And power DH, and power rev, and hammer engi.

For every condi bomb capable build in the game there are power builds that can do just as much or more damage upfront and instantly.

How to handle condi bombs:
- Dodge the appropriate skills.
-block the appropriate skills.
- use resistance
- use condi duration reducing traits and runes.
- use condi clears.
- whirl in light combo field
If you failed at all of the above, you got outplayed and deserve to die.

I don’t want to delete the condi-type damage from the game.

Then stop making suggestions that would exactly that.

There are 9 classes in this game. Only 3 of them have viable condi builds period. And of those 3 only 2 them are solo-queue viable. (condi necro is only viable when it has a pet healer to carry it.)

Crinn.7864:

kappa.2036:

@ Crinn
You’re definitely one of those who plays condicancer. You are defending your playstyle and I can understand very well your point of view since I play condi with certain classes aswell.
But let’s say it like it is: look at WvW roaming for example.Trailbrazer chrono, with Perplexity Runes maybe, and condi duration food. Many people just avoid them because they are the most annoying broken cancer in the game. 15+ stacks of confusion + random condis for 10+ seconds oneshotting you if you try to press 2-3 skills. Loads of blocks, invulns, teleport and evades since this is not enough.

PvP? Warrior pressing the elite skill with Kraith Runes: AoE torment, bleeding and poison AoE for 8 seconds, regardless if it hits the enemy or not. Then f2 with mace, other 4 condis, then weapon swap, longbow burning,immobilize,bleeding, and more burning, weapon swap again and repeat.
That’s just an example, we have necros and mesmers that can apply an insane quantity of different conditions just pressing 1 skill. Most of the time those skills are AoE. Spam and more spam. Like you on this post, basically.

The fact that the meta right now is mostly power-type damage means nothing, the devs can change to a condi-meta even tomorrow if they want, and the current condi cleanse system that gw2 has is not efficent since we can’t cleanse the conditions that we want in a certain situation. Cleanses are just "random"in this game, this is why in my opinion we need a more active-logical condi cleanse system. Obviously many things would be modified to obtain the right-balance beetween damaging, non-damaging and movement-impeding condi cleanses since, as i have already mentioned, I don’t want to delete the condi-type damage from the game. Just less condi spam s***t.

All of WvW’s problems with condi would be solved by simply removing trailblazer, dire, and perplexity runes. But the devs have some weird obsession with putting WvW on a PvE gearing system, and as such WvW is doomed to being perpetually broken.

Condi warrior does do lots of damage. And so does power warrior. And power DH, and power rev, and hammer engi.

For every condi bomb capable build in the game there are power builds that can do just as much or more damage upfront and instantly.

How to handle condi bombs:
- Dodge the appropriate skills.
-block the appropriate skills.
- use resistance
- use condi duration reducing traits and runes.
- use condi clears.
- whirl in light combo field
If you failed at all of the above, you got outplayed and deserve to die.

I don’t want to delete the condi-type damage from the game.

Then stop making suggestions that would exactly that.

There are 9 classes in this game. Only 3 of them have viable condi builds period. And of those 3 only 2 them are solo-queue viable. (condi necro is only viable when it has a pet healer to carry it.)

If you’re so bloody expert why don’t you play a power spec against condi spammers?
Go on! I dare you to use a power spec and…all this condi clear/block/dodgr of yours in this meta…I dare you to do that and record it!

Let’s see how many use a power spec during your matches…

The majority of players in my matches including myself play power builds. Where can i find this insane amout of “condi spammers” that you are talking about?

Spartacus.3192:

shagwell.1349:

Can we nerf power damage as well then?

Sure…..lots of people including myself have asked for a rollback of the insane power (power/condi) creep since HOT release.

indeed, but a game that was built to navigate arround damage output build so players all have the chance to win more often, that will hardly change, they will see as in “that will damage pve” and not the idea/foundations of what gw2 was built on.

sadly… war.. i ment, gw2 never changes.

Power can also be countered by dodges,blocks,evades,protection,weakness, and other skills that reduce temporarily the incoming damage, what’s the point?

I completely agree that the main problem is the general powercreep (both condi AND power). Power needs some adjustments aswell, absolutely, same thing about the amount of cc’s and blocks/invulns/evades that we have now compared to how it was before HoT, but if you want to complain about these things there are a lot of other posts where you can discuss your arguments.

The fact that now i’m posting something about conditions doesn’t mean that i’m for a full power pvp meta.
Both power and condition needs some adjustments, and thats it.

kappa.2036:

Power can also be countered by dodges,blocks,evades,protection,weakness, and other skills that reduce temporarily the incoming damage, what’s the point?

dodges, blocks, invulns … counters also condis

the problem with condis in that moment is not the amount of damage they deal, the problem is the diferent condi spam , some clases whith one traited hab ,plus sigils, plus kitten can aply a bunch of low stacks of condis covering a medium stak, condi play must be about making constant preasure of 0ne or two condis maintaning contant low staks of it or building high stacks of one max two not spam bombing alot of low stacks from multiple condis.
in my opinion changes in condis have to be:
-create more types of condis
-limit the number of condi acces per toon( one signature per character and one per weapon set) making a total of thre aplying only two in a determinate moment
-remove sigils of condi apliing
and finally separate damaging condis from “annoying” condis and create diferent ways to clear them

I think the separation of condis by categories (damaging vs non-damaging) is essential.

And as I have mentioned many times, I think the best for condis is to ensure that condi clears ONLY clears non-damaging ones. You can then reduce the condi output to make it match power damage output. You could have then a very clear situation, where you need to avoid/block the condi bursts but can sustain the constant pressure from the AA and other non-burst applications. Exactly like power damage.

Silverkey.2078:

You can then reduce the condi output to make it match power damage output.

There is no correlation between condis and higher dps.

Some condi builds have high dps, others have terrible dps. It all depends on the class.

Seriously I can never understand why people are always trying to lump every condi build in the game together, as if they are all the same.

Supreme.3164:

If you’re so bloody expert why don’t you play a power spec against condi spammers?

I do use power specs. I play power warrior (condi warrior doesn’t have enough mobility for my tastes) and hammer scrapper on a regular basis.

Condi necro is literally the only condi class I play.

Crinn.7864:

Silverkey.2078:

You can then reduce the condi output to make it match power damage output.

There is no correlation between condis and higher dps.

Some condi builds have high dps, others have terrible dps. It all depends on the class.

Seriously I can never understand why people are always trying to lump every condi build in the game together, as if they are all the same.

Supreme.3164:

If you’re so bloody expert why don’t you play a power spec against condi spammers?

I do use power specs. I play power warrior (condi warrior doesn’t have enough mobility for my tastes) and hammer scrapper on a regular basis.

Condi necro is literally the only condi class I play.

Ofc you do..no wonder you think condi is fine…just play “perma” resistance warrior or ultimate tank scrapper but if that’s the case then…stop complaining about necro.
If necro is balanced compared to scrapper and warrior then make no mistake : necro is as much OP as these professions.

Ty anyway for proving my point @Crinn.

Silverkey.2078:

I think the separation of condis by categories (damaging vs non-damaging) is essential.

And as I have mentioned many times, I think the best for condis is to ensure that condi clears ONLY clears non-damaging ones. You can then reduce the condi output to make it match power damage output. You could have then a very clear situation, where you need to avoid/block the condi bursts but can sustain the constant pressure from the AA and other non-burst applications. Exactly like power damage.

I agree with this, although I don’t expect to see such a major overhaul before the next expansion at best.