Guild Wars 2

Yasha.5963:

Nimraphel.7819:

Rangers:
Hard Counters: Lightning Reflexes, Protect Me, Rampage as One (most likely the warrior, if smart, won’t even try going at you for 20s+ straight due to the insanely long Stability), Counter Attack.
Soft Counters: Signet of Renewal (if used asap it’ll remove all your conditions), Hilt Bash (hardcounter /w stunbreaker), Concussive Shot (hardcounter /w stunbreaker), Point Blank Shot (hardcounter /w stunbreaker), Stalker’s Strike (hardcounter /w stunbreaker), Hornet’s Sting (hardcounter /w stunbreaker).

Yes Rangers can have all these counters available on demand and they are all on a shorter CD than HB right?

They are on a shorter or equal cooldown to Frenzy. Don’t tell me you can’t avoid a normally channeled HB. Posts like this really make me lose faith in the general pvp population.

I specifically listed those counters to the entire HB combo consisting on Frenzy + Bullrush + Signet of Rage + SoM/FGJ/Bola.

Yasha.5963:

There really is no reliable counter like you suggest

That would be dodge or normal stunbreaker + dodge.

Yasha.5963:

a Ranger may have one or two of those options in a build and the shortest CD is Lightning reflexes if traited 36 sec CD-but it doesn’t break immobilize which is what most smart players hit a ranger with, not to mention that if you are stunned you can’t use most of the “counters” you list anyway!

Let’s just completely disregard that most rangers often engage in fights having Rampage As One running for 20+ seconds which means they’re untouchable for the HB warrior in this scenario.

Let’s also completely disregard that if a HB Warrior has Frenzy, Bull Rush and Bola, the Ranger can just stunbreak + interrupt the channel. Problem solved. Rangers has numerous short cooldown easily-accessible ways of achieving this, regardless of build. As does most all classes.

Yasha.5963:

At any rate the point is not HB, the point is high burst in spvp is boring-whether it is HB, spammed PW, mesmer-burst or whatever. Getting killed in 2 secs even when running high toughness is not fun gameplay; even in a game like WoW the only time this happened was against twinks. The great thing about GW2 spvp is that we have a level playing field, however, these one-shot wonder builds really bring down the feel and enjoyability of the game.

Yet it’s funny how this is a complete non-issue in actual competitive play. No high-toughness builds get killed in 2 seconds. None. Also, your implication that high toughness should by itself guarantee long survivability is inane; toughness is not an excuse for lack of skill or bad builds. A necro popping Spectral Armor will likely get hit for 6k on a fully channelled hundred blades if he runs average toughness. Seems very balanced considering the Warrior is a one-trick pony.

Burst is fine, it’s easily avoidable and the builds running it, with the exception of PW Thief which, on the other hand, has other shortcomings, are sacrificing alot to pull this off. HB Warriors are extremely weak vs. good opposition, Shatter mesmers are easily countered by people with moderate awareness due to their squishiness outside Distortion.

OneManArmy.5617:

Quickness is a broken mechanic and has no place in PvP. They should remove it.
It makes abilities like hundred blades OP.

Quickness is fine. It even comes with drawbacks, sometimes huge (Frenzy in particular). Quickness should not be removed. It’s a non-issue compared to, say, iQ Elementalist’s ability to stall vs. conditionbuilds. It’s a non-issue compared to how glass cannons are lacking viability in anything other than 8v8 hotjoin. Competitive teams eat glass cannons. 1h offensive guardians (just to give an example) eat glass cannons.

HB is not in any way OP. HB is usable every minute during Frenzy. Don’t tell me people stand mindlessly in a slowly channelled HB and soak it rather than dodge it. I’d like to think the average player is not that stupid.

Nimraphel.7819:

No high-toughness builds get killed in 2 seconds. None. Also, your implication that high toughness should by itself guarantee long survivability is inane; toughness is not an excuse for lack of skill or bad builds. A necro popping Spectral Armor will likely get hit for 6k on a fully channelled hundred blades if he runs average toughness. Seems very balanced considering the Warrior is a one-trick pony.

Burst is fine, it’s easily avoidable and the builds running it, with the exception of PW Thief which, on the other hand, has other shortcomings, are sacrificing alot to pull this off. HB Warriors are extremely weak vs. good opposition, Shatter mesmers are easily countered by people with moderate awareness due to their squishiness outside Distortion.

When I run a high toughness ranger build a frenzy HB will kill me in 2-secs, mesmer burst has also killed me, as has theif burst, and some necro builds (I don’t know what the necro build was, perhaps they sent conditions back to me- killed me in a few seconds, that has only happened a couple of times). But the warrior, theif and mesmer burst builds have taken out my high toughness ranger quite often. Now that build can sometimes survive at full health, but if you are down a bit its gg.

I think a burst class should be able to nearly one shot a squishy, but should have to apply some concerted team effort to take down tanky builds. I don’t think that is “inane” as you so politely say about my opinion, more just common sense I would say.

Whether or not you have to sacrifice something to get the crazy burst is not the point- the problem is that its just not fun to be killed almost instantly even if you are running a tanky build-for which you would have sacrificed a lot so that you can survive.

And this is another way that the current over-the-top burst is negatively impacting the game- it limits what builds you can take into spvp. For example a ranger basically has to make a tanky build to do spvp, soley because of the high burst in the game.

Also since most pvp happens in a group in this game, and because immobilize is hard to remove (and many classes can apply it), it is actually quite easy to set up a burst attack. In fact I get bursted down like this every night, there is no way for me to reliably and skillfully avoid it. It feels more like luck than skill when I escape. Then you see with several classes able do it, you are really being exposed to a constant barrage of burst and cc. Anyone who plays thief, mesmer, or warrior (those three in particular) well can pull off their burst kill.

Another thing, that you mention. Is it so easy to pick the mesmer? How about when there are three mesmers? There are just not enough dodges and evades to go around I’m afraid. Even more so than thief it is an easy class to pull off big burst without having to sacrifice survivability.

Sure in an ideal 1vs1 situation you can pick it out, but it is not so easy in a typical group fight; and if the mesmer is good they can and have bursted down the highest toughness/healbot ranger I ran with before I could react. Bang! just like that dead. This was before the last patch and it hasn’t happened since, but maybe I just havn’t come up against a really good mesmer for a while.

In summary, the very high burst in this game detracts from the enjoyability and sense of control and skill in spvp it would be swell if it were toned down. Lets have some more enjoyable drawn out and tactical fights and less of the 2-sec you are dead stuff.

Post was too long, so here’s part 1/2

Yasha.5963:

When I run a high toughness ranger build a frenzy HB will kill me in 2-secs, mesmer burst has also killed me, as has theif burst, and some necro builds

It would be alot easier to relate to if you would actually link your build

Yasha.5963:

I think a burst class should be able to nearly one shot a squishy, but should have to apply some concerted team effort to take down tanky builds.

So hypothetically, would you say a high-toughness/no defensive utilities build is tanky?
Also, concerted team effort? No bunker should be able to sustain a 1v3-4 fight for an extended period of time assuming equal skill. Good bunkers will beat glass cannons, iQ ele, bunker engi, bunker guardian, LDB bunker Thief and bunker necros can all do this consistently.

Yasha.5963:

the problem is that its just not fun to be killed almost instantly even if you are running a tanky build-for which you would have sacrificed a lot so that you can survive.

I’m sure the warrior agrees that life’s harsh when he can’t do jack against a chain-trapping ranger with 20 seconds of stability, but that’s another matter… Link your build, otherwise the point is moot; I have a very hard time believing that a build dedicated to be “tanky” gets taken down in 2 seconds when iQ Ele, Bunker Guardian, Bunker Necro and Bunker Engineer can easily survive a HB Warrior, even if said warrior channels a full HB.

Yasha.5963:

the current over-the-top burst is negatively impacting the game- it limits what builds you can take into spvp. A ranger has to make a tanky build to do spvp, soley because of the high burst in the game.

Nonsense. My trap-spamming condition SB ranger can consistently farm 300+ glory/match in 8v8 sPvP with little effort. The Frenzied Bull Rush HB can be countered by a single stunbreaker + any of the many low-cooldown interrupts available in the ranger’s weaponsets. High toughness isn’t a carte blanche to go into sPvP without any defensive utilities and expect to excell. And at any rate, your stunbreakers are almost all on a shorter cooldown than both frenzy and bull rush. If you stand and soak a normal HB, well… the warrior is not the problem.

Yasha.5963:

Also since most pvp happens in a group in this game, and because immobilize is hard to remove (and many classes can apply it), it is actually quite easy to set up a burst attack. I get bursted down like this every night, there is no way for me to reliably and skillfully avoid it. Then you see with several classes able do it, you are really being exposed to a constant barrage of burst and cc.

Are you talking 8v8 hotjoin? Because when can we stop beating the dead horse and realize that 8v8 hotjoin is a FFA environment that is not a good yardstick for balancing?
I’ll give you one thing: PvP does indeed not occur in a vacuum. It’s more than possible to counter burst as it is to set it up. There are a multitude of ways to create area denial or cleanse conditions off your team/grant stability.

Part 2/2

Yasha.5963:

Is it so easy to pick the mesmer? How about when there are three mesmers? There are just not enough dodges and evades to go around I’m afraid.

I’ve yet to see any succesful team run triple mesmer because they’re so easily getting toasted by LDB Thieves, Engineers, Eles. However, I assume you are talking 8v8, in which case I am close to giving up; you seem impervious to the common sense that the majority of people in this thread try to present to you.

Or hell, let’s put this in terms you can understand: How am I to have enough dodges or evades against 3x trap spamming QZ’ing SB rangers? How am I to avoid 3x Backstab Thieves from splatting me? How am I to avoid getting knocked around ad nauseum by 3 Engineers?

I can’t. If I were to hazard a guess, I don’t think anyone should have an easy time against 3 people, be it of the same or various classes. I can’t decide if it’s hilarious or tragic that you’re even implying that you should stand a chance vs. 3 people of equal skill. Be it Mesmers, Thieves or any other class.

Yasha.5963:

Sure in an ideal 1vs1 situation you can pick it out, but it is not so easy in a typical group fight; and if the mesmer is good they can and have bursted down the highest toughness/healbot ranger I ran with before I could react. Bang! just like that dead. This was before the last patch and it hasn’t happened since, but maybe I just havn’t come up against a really good mesmer for a while.

Healbot ranger sounds awfully interesting, would love to see the build. Almost makes it sound like the trinity is back! … Alas, what relevance does it have after the last batch of nerfs and considering you haven’t experienced it for 2 full weeks? Also, examples taken out of context are anecdotal at best, making a poor foundation for discussion. Videos and builds please. If you’re so passionate about it, you’re probably also willing to fraps it rather than run to the official forum and take scenarios out of context.

Yasha.5963:

the very high burst in this game detracts from the enjoyability and sense of control and skill in spvp. Lets have some more enjoyable drawn out and tactical fights and less of the 2-sec you are dead stuff.

I’d suggest watching some competitive tournament pvp. It’s exactly as you describe and it’s very enjoyable to watch. 8v8 hotjoin is 8v8 hotjoin; it’s a zergfest centered around mindless zerging and killing rather than, y’know, winning the actual map. The builds therein reflects that. It is not fit for balance.

Nimraphel.7819:

Part 2/2

Yasha.5963:

Is it so easy to pick the mesmer? How about when there are three mesmers? There are just not enough dodges and evades to go around I’m afraid.

I’ve yet to see any succesful team run triple mesmer because they’re so easily getting toasted by LDB Thieves, Engineers, Eles. However, I assume you are talking 8v8, in which case I am close to giving up; you seem impervious to the common sense that the majority of people in this thread try to present to you.

Or hell, let’s put this in terms you can understand: How am I to have enough dodges or evades against 3x trap spamming QZ’ing SB rangers? How am I to avoid 3x Backstab Thieves from splatting me? How am I to avoid getting knocked around ad nauseum by 3 Engineers?

I can’t. If I were to hazard a guess, I don’t think anyone should have an easy time against 3 people, be it of the same or various classes. I can’t decide if it’s hilarious or tragic that you’re even implying that you should stand a chance vs. 3 people of equal skill. Be it Mesmers, Thieves or any other class.

It is harder to pick and stick on a mesmer than on a ranger/warrior/etc in 1vs1 and obviously it becomes all the harder the more mesmers there are on the opposition team in a group fight. The mesmers don’t even need to know how to play and can still do well in that situation; meaning you can be very skilled but be unable to do much.

However, my point is not to single out any one particular class or skill. After well over a 1000 spvp matches my feedback is that the more drawn out tactical battles are the funnest and the 2-sec kill battles are not very fun. Its pretty obvious really. The burst is too high on some abilities. Some set ups give you little chance to react and put you at a massive disadvantage based more on luck than skill.

Yasha.5963:

Snip

I can’t take this discussion with you seriously anymore. You completely ignore any and all well-founded empirical refutations of your arguments, and consistently neglect to provide any information that could help us have a constructive discussion.

You have your opinion, I have never disputed that nor your right to it. Just refrain, for the love of God, from presenting arguments and opinions as facts when you de facto refuse to provide information necessary to back up your outrageous – and therefore presumably unfounded – claims. Coupled with your partout neglect in acknowledging the ease of which HB’s combo is potentially countered makes this so-called ‘discussion’ a farcical exercise in banal repetition.

/thread = TL;DR: Use your c-c-c-c-combo breaker!

Oh you used it on the rest of the zerg that just jumped you and the warrior came up last to just stun you and slow motion 100b your face? Too bad, good job surviving the rest of the zerg though.

Nimraphel.7819:

Yasha.5963:

Snip

I can’t take this discussion with you seriously anymore. You completely ignore any and all well-founded empirical refutations of your arguments, and consistently neglect to provide any information that could help us have a constructive discussion.

You have your opinion, I have never disputed that nor your right to it. Just refrain, for the love of God, from presenting arguments and opinions as facts when you de facto refuse to provide information necessary to back up your outrageous – and therefore presumably unfounded – claims. Coupled with your partout neglect in acknowledging the ease of which HB’s combo is potentially countered makes this so-called ‘discussion’ a farcical exercise in banal repetition.

Your posts mainly consist of rhetoric aimed at belittling the views of those who have a different opinion than you. However, let me sift through the insults and self-grandiose and try and find these “well-founded empirical refutations” of which you speak.

Ah, here we go:

(1) “Let’s just completely disregard that most rangers often engage in fights having Rampage As One running for 20+ seconds”
– Yes I see how this is empirical, you have the stats on what most Rangers run with, I guess you are on the dev team right?

(2) “Let’s also completely disregard that if a HB Warrior has Frenzy, Bull Rush and Bola, the Ranger can just stunbreak + interrupt the channel. Problem solved. Rangers has numerous short cooldown easily-accessible ways of achieving this, regardless of build. As does most all classes.”
- Oh I guess by “numerous” you mean one, (being signet of renewal) and by “short cooldown” you mean 60 secs and by " easily-accessible regardless of build" you mean regardless of build as long as it is the build that includes this one ability rangers have that breaks stun and removes immobilize?

(3) “No high-toughness builds get killed in 2 seconds. None.”
– Hmm, not sure but this sounds suspiciously closer to a forceful assertion than empirical evidence.

(4) “Nonsense. My trap-spamming condition SB ranger can consistently farm 300+ glory/match in 8v8 sPvP with little effort.”
– You say my views are nonsense, and in the next breath modestly tell us how pro you are with a high toughness/condition build ranger…..Not only is this not empirical, it is supporting exactly what I said.

But in all seriousness I do think that we fundamentally share the same desire, to have well balanced and exciting spvp. And like I’ve said many times, its not HB I’m concerned about per-say, it’s the very high burst that some classes have in the game that feels somewhat cheap or out of place to me in a game this good, for reasons I and many on this thread have already mentioned.

Post 1/2

Yasha.5963:

Your posts mainly consist of rhetoric aimed at belittling the views of those who have a different opinion than you.

My posts factually refute the outrageous claims that HB is an infallible “I WIN” combination that is impossible to avoid.

Yasha.5963:

(1) “Let’s just completely disregard that most rangers often engage in fights having Rampage As One running for 20+ seconds”
– Yes I see how this is empirical, you have the stats on what most Rangers run with, I guess you are on the dev team right?

I fully acknowledge and concede that I made an assumption there on behalf of the majority of Rangers. However, I won’t apologize for that since RAO is vastly superior in almost any given scenario to any other elite in a Ranger’s arsenal. It’s on a 120s cooldown as opposed to 150s (Entangle) and 240 (SoN). Entangle is easily broken and SoN, while good, is often too high risk compared to its rewards. I think you know as well yourself that a 20+s Stability, Fury and Swiftness is outright amazingly powerful, hence often being a prime Elite for Rangers.

Yasha.5963:

(2) “Let’s also completely disregard that if a HB Warrior has Frenzy, Bull Rush and Bola, the Ranger can just stunbreak + interrupt the channel. Problem solved. Rangers has numerous short cooldown easily-accessible ways of achieving this, regardless of build. As does most all classes.”
- Oh I guess by “numerous” you mean one, (being signet of renewal) and by “short cooldown” you mean 60 secs and by " easily-accessible regardless of build" you mean regardless of build as long as it is the build that includes this one ability rangers have that breaks stun and removes immobilize?

Your response belies lack of comprehension of what I write. You don’t need to break Immobilize if the Warrior is running Frenzy + Bull Rush + Bola. You break the stun and use one of the many interrupts available to all ranger’s weaponsets since the warrior will have no source of Stability.

This means you can counter it easily with both Signet of Renewal or Lightning Reflexes. Or you could just pop “Protect Me!” and troll the warrior. Both of the latter two are on shorter CD than the warrior’s combo. And hey, it is actually in fact possible to avoid the Bull Rush through normal means. Keeping the warrior outside 900 Range isn’t too hard, especially not if you’re running SB/chill trap since his primary gap-closer, Rush, will surely give his intention away.

Yasha.5963:

(3) “No high-toughness builds get killed in 2 seconds. None.”
– Hmm, not sure but this sounds suspiciously closer to a forceful assertion than empirical evidence.

I can’t really comment on anything specific since you categorically refuse to link your build so that I can adress your specific example, despite me asking for it time and again. I can easily link you all competitively used Bunker builds, be it Guardian, Engineer, Thief, Necro or Ele. I can make videos showing how they can all easily negate a HB or survive soaking one. I can post videos showing it from both Warrior and bunker perspective. I could do the same for a Ranger as I’d build a Bunker Ranger.

That being said, my wording could have been better; it implies that high-toughness build is a carte blanche to be able to survive burst builds no matter how badly the high-toughness player plays. That is of course a mistaken wording on my part; toughness is not equal to strong survivability by itself, and of course defensive utilities such as a stunbreaker is needed. That goes for all classes.

Post 2/2

Yasha.5963:

(4) “Nonsense. My trap-spamming condition SB ranger can consistently farm 300+ glory/match in 8v8 sPvP with little effort.”
– You say my views are nonsense, and in the next breath modestly tell us how pro you are with a high toughness/condition build ranger…..Not only is this not empirical, it is supporting exactly what I said.

You misunderstood me. I didn’t flaunt my ego, I called you out on the BS claim that you can’t walk into 8v8 hotjoin and do well without being forced to go for Toughness. I think you grossly oversimplified the matter and made a wrong claim based as fact. This was further underlined by looking at one of your other posts in the Ranger forum, in which you said the following:

Yasha.5963:

Now I have to say that I really enjoy my ranger in spvp, I like ranged too so usually sport a shortbow and horn (for the speed buff). Of course you have to go tanky, but you can do condition tanky (best but direct damage is verrry low) or a powertoughness build (ok, good for taking out new players). Of course tpvp is a no go, but if you get a decent group in hotjoin spvp you can play a tough kiting type style that is a lot of fun-you do need to learn a new playstyle though, I remember the transition from a longbow sniper (aka thief fodder) to the tanky short range kiting style (actually very exciting)

I find that pretty enlightening once you mention that you run a…

Yasha.5963:

I run a high toughness ranger build

High toughness is not a free ticket to insanely strong survivability. Toughness doesn’t inherently make you a very strong tank. The trinity was abolished for a reason. I implore you once again… please link your build. I find it very hard to believe you’re devoid of counters to burst combinations of any kind, regardless of class. And I don’t think a bunker-style ranger running SB + 1h/Warhorn is necessarily the best choice or an infallible bunker-ranger build. There are better defensive options, especially if you insist on not swapping often.

Yasha.5963:

But in all seriousness I do think that we fundamentally share the same desire, to have well balanced and exciting spvp. And like I’ve said many times, its not HB I’m concerned about per-say, it’s the very high burst that some classes have in the game that feels somewhat cheap or out of place to me in a game this good, for reasons I and many on this thread have already mentioned.

This thread is specifically around Hundred Blades. Thus I hope you won’t derail the topic into a sweeping collateral vendetta against burst builds which might inadverdently affect Warrior, least represented class in tPvP along with Ranger, and which is in sore lack of any viable builds.

That aside, I agree that we both want an ideal game, and I respect that desire. I, however, base my arguments on 5v5 play at skill-level above basic. You seem – and no offence intended with this – to base it on 8v8 hotjoin, which is abhorrent since it is a gamemode in which zerging is promoted for glory farming rather than promoting actual intelligent and skilled play. 8v8 should honestly be removed, but barring that it should just never have any influence on balance as it promotes the wrong kind of play; in 5v5 stunbreakers are great because you can face-off against 2-3 people for a while. You might lose, but backup might also arrive and turn the tide of the battle. In 8v8 hotjoin you might as well not bother as fights are inherently uneven and/or overwhelming zergs.

Again, I’d respectfully urge you to watch streams between competitive teams. It’s extremely dynamic when the high-level teams face off against each other, and even in normal tournament pvp with a cohesive, organized team, those gib-scenarios are pretty much a non-issue unless you’re vastly outskilled.

I’d love if they removed 8v8 hotjoin and limited pvp into tournament pvp with ladders and ELO Matchmaking to ensure balanced match-ups. It’d create a far more competent pvp environment and would highlight how HB is so extremely weak in a controlled environment.

Nimraphel.7819:

My posts factually refute the outrageous claims that HB is an infallible “I WIN” combination that is impossible to avoid.

Well, I never said HB is an infallible I win button, that would be an outrageous claim! Its actually one of the easier of such abilities to evade.

My comments about burst being excessive are relevant to the thread in my opinion, because I see the OP’s complaint more as a symptom of the games high-burst dynamic rather than HB in itself being “overpowered”.

At any rate I thank you for writing some well thought out and lengthy replies that didn’t need to involve insulting me. Maybe there was some level of misunderstanding on both sides about what we were trying to convey due to our passion for the game.

And let me also add that I am very interested in your views, even if they are different to mine.

Try dodging 100b when you are on a Foreign ping. By time you break stun and dodge a Frenzied 100b its mostly over.

100b not so bad

Different forms of Quickness, very bad all round.

Yasha.5963:

Nimraphel.7819:

My posts factually refute the outrageous claims that HB is an infallible “I WIN” combination that is impossible to avoid.

Well, I never said HB is an infallible I win button, that would be an outrageous claim! Its actually one of the easier of such abilities to evade.

My comments about burst being excessive are relevant to the thread in my opinion, because I see the OP’s complaint more as a symptom of the games high-burst dynamic rather than HB in itself being “overpowered”.

At any rate I thank you for writing some well thought out and lengthy replies that didn’t need to involve insulting me. Maybe there was some level of misunderstanding on both sides about what we were trying to convey due to our passion for the game.

And let me also add that I am very interested in your views, even if they are different to mine.

Likewise – and link the kitten build Yasha!

Relentliss.2170:

Try dodging 100b when you are on a Foreign ping. By time you break stun and dodge a Frenzied 100b its mostly over.

100b not so bad

Different forms of Quickness, very bad all round.

As much as I can empathize with your situation, I don’t think balancing around (what I hope and assume to be) a small player segment’s latency issues is a good thing. If you’re an oceanic player then you have my sympathies, I’d definitely wish you had your own server, but I hope you also realize you’re in the minority, and that balancing the game around a latency issues affecting a distinct minority of the playerbase isn’t ideal.

If you’re an NA player playing on EU or vice-versa, well… There’s a solution for that.

And on the topic of HB: It’s borderline useless outside of Frenzy. Removing Quickness would have huge implications and necessitate a removal of the self-root on HB (which even then wouldn’t make it very viable as it’s still easily interrupted. We’d just see HB Warriors becoming useful only during Balanced Stance rather than Frenzy).