Guild Wars 2

DevilsGlare.7658:

Alright, I’ve read plenty of posts here that demand the nerf of the classes that abuse celestial amulet. While I completely agree that cele is out of hand, I’d rather point out my own thoughts as to why the meta needs to shift. No salt, or waterworks.

With all of the prior cash tournaments, and the future ones to come; we as a community, have to go off of the assumption that Arenanet would like to continue to push towards the dream, “Esports”. I would like to lay that as the ground work because this is 90% of my argument, and where I base my ideas off of. If that assumption is confirmed as false by Arenanet, then null and void any of the posts concerning “balances”. So, here’s my thoughts:

A game that is striving to become esports needs to be a spectator sport. Many streamers, and competitive players have said this time and time again. While everyone has their own thoughts as to how to make this better, I will make it simple. The game needs to be exciting to watch. Viewers WANT to see the “oh kitten” moments and the “heads up” plays. Celestial amulets and bruiser builds don’t cater to the exciting moments to be had in this game. More-so than most, this game demands mechanically well-rounded, and fast twitch game play. When one player/team beats another, it SHOULD be based off of them being better than the other player/team. Celestial amulet is so forgiving that it doesn’t truly matter if you dodge or mitigate damage, you can simply face tank it. For the past two major tournaments (WTS and All-Stars), I have fallen asleep while watching the stream due to general lack of captivation. Big plays, get big views. Honestly, golf has more exciting plays than Guild Wars 2 right now.

My goal here isn’t to flame anyone (despite popular belief), or belittle the community. But, let’s be real, players who were considered low to mid tier are now bathing in the light of e-fame due to celestial amulet alone. Reserve the cash tournaments for the players who dedicate endless hours to being better duelists, and team players. These are the type of players who spend hours attempting to be mechanically flawless on their zerk builds because one mistake, or mis-timed dodge, may be the end of them. These are the guys I want to watch, and these are the guys I want to root for. The groundwork for an amazingly competitive game has been laid, but it’s almost as if it’s being ignored so as to appeal to casual players. At the end of the day, I should want to strive to play like my favorite player, or team. I shouldn’t be able to pick up the controls and be playing at the same level as these “top tier” players within a matter of days, or even hours. Granted, some classes/builds have naturally lower skill floors than others, but what I’m asking is for Anet to raise the skill cap.

I’ve been very ambiguous in this thread, so I apologize for not coming with the “solutions” to the problem. Frankly, there’s a ridiculous number of ways this meta can shift into something more constructive for the e-sports scene. There are tons of more intelligent players than I that can dish out multiple approaches for change. If you wanted help, I’d give it. But for the past two and a half years it’s been less about listening to the community, and more about being too prideful to admit defeat. Put your hands up in the air, ask for help, and apply feedback.

TL;DR: Nerf Celestial Amulet.

True Words

lmao at chaith desperately trying to defend celestial as if it resembles anything near balanced

sinject.4607:

lmao at chaith desperately trying to defend celestial as if it resembles anything near balanced

Chaith prob quit his job to keep making $10,000s I’m assuming he doesn’t want others to have a chance.

DevilsGlare.7658:

I made that into a seperate thread, I was just asked to post this here as well. Forgive me. TL;DR at the bottom.

I agree with nerfing celestial amulet, but my argument was that it should not be removed completely which was the topic of this post

KarinaCO.6948:

DevilsGlare.7658:

I made that into a seperate thread, I was just asked to post this here as well. Forgive me. TL;DR at the bottom.

I agree with nerfing celestial amulet, but my argument was that it should not be removed completely which was the topic of this post

Ok, I understand that my suggestion is a bit radical, so, what is your suggestion?
I’m not trying to be a kitten btw, I really do want as many suggestions to be out there for the devs as possible.

KarinaCO.6948:

DevilsGlare.7658:

I made that into a seperate thread, I was just asked to post this here as well. Forgive me. TL;DR at the bottom.

I agree with nerfing celestial amulet, but my argument was that it should not be removed completely which was the topic of this post

I don’t crunch numbers, or theory craft in my free time. Tbh, I just want a fix. If all it took was nerf to celestial, I would take it.

Fixes within a reasonable amount of time, even if not the best, is better then 6 months of no change whatsoever.

Okay children, lets break this down.

Bird of Fire is just sitting here, anyone who agrees with him > BRILLIANT +1, anyone who disagrees = Troll

For starters don’t make a “constructive” post and then do this ^^^^.

So, what are the “cures” to celestial. I think most would agree it is NOT JUST THE AMULET, sigils and runes are what make it viable.

That being said, lets look at the “meta”
Engi- Cele (Meta)
Ele- Cele (Meta)
Warrior- Cele (Meta)

Despite these three builds…. almost every other class has representation in top tier
Thief- Both S/d and D/p played at top tier
Necro- Condi played at top tier (no good power necros)
Guardian- Both TCG and CM use a DPS guardian now (correct me if im wrong on this)

Mesmer-recently pushed out of meta, shatter still very viable, it is able to destroy both cele eles and engis

Ranger- simply lacking, needs buffs

Your argument that celestial eles and engis are thrashing you in 1v1s is SOO invalid… your using a zerker necro that is basically made for group fights… you use wells and Lich…. which contribute far more in a team fight than elementalists and engineers….

And yes, i’m going to direct a lot of this at your team because that is your main basis of CELESTIAL OP> EVERYTHING ELSE…
You guys don’t know how to rotate. If you rotated the right people at the right time to the right place, you guys might actually have a chance of not getting 500-0ed by better players. Your mechanical skill is also not quite there, rather unfortunate, but your builds require very little brain activity and there shouldn’t be much of an issue with pressing one button on your keyboard.

The bottom line is this: No build in this game is hard, at top tier just about anything can become viable when your great at it..
I will admit, celestial builds tend to have a low skill floor, but they also have a high skill cap. This game, since it wants to be esports, needs to be balanced from the top down. Currently at the top the only classes struggling are ranger and a little bit of mesmer/guard. I guarantee you, if you guys didn’t 4v5 (res warrior? srsly?) and actually knew how to rotate, you would stand a chance vs actual top teams. Your rage vs celestial amulet is simply because you are at the bottom of the skill floor in your respective classes. This makes Celestial seem overpowered to you. Well, have a good day,
Love, Backpack

In my observations, I do think many have a point about this cele meta. Celestial gives a nice spread of overall stats, along with the classes that can stack might and benefit from condition/power and most importantly health over time effects, like virtue of resolve, backpack regen, and water attunement…on top of regen. This creates builds that are much more powerful and effective overall with very little in the way of drawbacks.

Boon strip is effective against these classes with cele builds, but the overwhelming amount or players playing it creates little build diversity and since not everyone is keen on running a condi boon strip necro ( the most effective boon stripper in the game ), the imbalance is becoming obvious more and more.

I think a stat changeup on celestial ( you know, how it was before it got buffed ) would help, as limiting the might stacking on those professions would hinder their ability for build diversity. Change the amulet itself to be effective….

Sure, its nice to win…and Im sure those who have won money from using these amulets would get more than a little kittened….but if this game is indeed for everyone, then the issue of celestial should be addressed. Celestial can still be effective, but the stat bonuses need to be worked on to be more in line to allow other builds to shine based on mechanical ability and awareness.

Cele is training wheels, and we now have great mechanically sound players abusing training wheels to win.

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

Mike.4830:

Okay children, lets break this down.

Bird of Fire is just sitting here, anyone who agrees with him > BRILLIANT +1, anyone who disagrees = Troll

For starters don’t make a “constructive” post and then do this ^^^^.

So, what are the “cures” to celestial. I think most would agree it is NOT JUST THE AMULET, sigils and runes are what make it viable.

That being said, lets look at the “meta”
Engi- Cele (Meta)
Ele- Cele (Meta)
Warrior- Cele (Meta)

Despite these three builds…. almost every other class has representation in top tier
Thief- Both S/d and D/p played at top tier
Necro- Condi played at top tier (no good power necros)
Guardian- Both TCG and CM use a DPS guardian now (correct me if im wrong on this)

Mesmer-recently pushed out of meta, shatter still very viable, it is able to destroy both cele eles and engis

Ranger- simply lacking, needs buffs

Your argument that celestial eles and engis are thrashing you in 1v1s is SOO invalid… your using a zerker necro that is basically made for group fights… you use wells and Lich…. which contribute far more in a team fight than elementalists and engineers….

And yes, i’m going to direct a lot of this at your team because that is your main basis of CELESTIAL OP> EVERYTHING ELSE…
You guys don’t know how to rotate. If you rotated the right people at the right time to the right place, you guys might actually have a chance of not getting 500-0ed by better players. Your mechanical skill is also not quite there, rather unfortunate, but your builds require very little brain activity and there shouldn’t be much of an issue with pressing one button on your keyboard.

The bottom line is this: No build in this game is hard, at top tier just about anything can become viable when your great at it..
I will admit, celestial builds tend to have a low skill floor, but they also have a high skill cap. This game, since it wants to be esports, needs to be balanced from the top down. Currently at the top the only classes struggling are ranger and a little bit of mesmer/guard. I guarantee you, if you guys didn’t 4v5 (res warrior? srsly?) and actually knew how to rotate, you would stand a chance vs actual top teams. Your rage vs celestial amulet is simply because you are at the bottom of the skill floor in your respective classes. This makes Celestial seem overpowered to you. Well, have a good day,
Love, Backpack

I must agree on many of your points, first you do point out that there are builds that are non-cele and in the meta, that is true. You do also think that classes that utilize celestial are overpowered, and you think ranger is not in the meta, that is all true.

There is one key point though that you are missing, the difference between the rotations of a cele group and a NON cele group are that you actually need to rotate the correct people to the right fight. In a cele group, literally any combination will make some of the best 1v1s 2v2s 3v3s, team fights, etc. That is what makes Cele teams SO EASY when it comes to rotations. That is why you think your team rotates SO much better than ours.

Lol “bird of fire”

Aeroxe.8140:

Lol “bird of fire”

+1

Aeroxe.8140:

Lol “bird of fire”

/facepalm

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

+1

Veritas.3952:

Cele is training wheels, and we now have great mechanically sound players abusing training wheels to win.

WHAT?! other people think that too?

Are there free refills of popcorn for this thread? Extra salt please.

Celtus.8456:

Are there free refills of popcorn for this thread? Extra salt please.

hey Hose-sir-ray do you have any suggestions on how to nerf cele effectively? As you are the best staff ele I know. Would you feel comfortable running clerics? valk? possibly glass?

Mike.4830:

Okay children, lets break this down.

Bird of Fire is just sitting here, anyone who agrees with him > BRILLIANT +1, anyone who disagrees = Troll

For starters don’t make a “constructive” post and then do this ^^^^.

So, what are the “cures” to celestial. I think most would agree it is NOT JUST THE AMULET, sigils and runes are what make it viable.

That being said, lets look at the “meta”
Engi- Cele (Meta)
Ele- Cele (Meta)
Warrior- Cele (Meta)

Despite these three builds…. almost every other class has representation in top tier
Thief- Both S/d and D/p played at top tier
Necro- Condi played at top tier (no good power necros)
Guardian- Both TCG and CM use a DPS guardian now (correct me if im wrong on this)

Mesmer-recently pushed out of meta, shatter still very viable, it is able to destroy both cele eles and engis

Ranger- simply lacking, needs buffs

Your argument that celestial eles and engis are thrashing you in 1v1s is SOO invalid… your using a zerker necro that is basically made for group fights… you use wells and Lich…. which contribute far more in a team fight than elementalists and engineers….

And yes, i’m going to direct a lot of this at your team because that is your main basis of CELESTIAL OP> EVERYTHING ELSE…
You guys don’t know how to rotate. If you rotated the right people at the right time to the right place, you guys might actually have a chance of not getting 500-0ed by better players. Your mechanical skill is also not quite there, rather unfortunate, but your builds require very little brain activity and there shouldn’t be much of an issue with pressing one button on your keyboard.

The bottom line is this: No build in this game is hard, at top tier just about anything can become viable when your great at it..
I will admit, celestial builds tend to have a low skill floor, but they also have a high skill cap. This game, since it wants to be esports, needs to be balanced from the top down. Currently at the top the only classes struggling are ranger and a little bit of mesmer/guard. I guarantee you, if you guys didn’t 4v5 (res warrior? srsly?) and actually knew how to rotate, you would stand a chance vs actual top teams. Your rage vs celestial amulet is simply because you are at the bottom of the skill floor in your respective classes. This makes Celestial seem overpowered to you. Well, have a good day,
Love, Backpack

Backpacks arms must be tired after juggling Lil Dmg for so long.

Ozie, do you have any solid suggestions to fix the Cele meta? Since you are, in fact, a celestial D/D ele

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

You want to play ele “Flawlessly?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-asTr2PRAg
You want to play engi “Flawlessly?” ask backpack, apparently he’s the best engi the game has ever seen.

As long as elementalists can be viably played at the top level (ideally with multiple builds), I don’t care what the amulet is. Same for all professions.

Celtus.8456:

As long as elementalists can be viably played at the top level (ideally with multiple builds), I don’t care what the amulet is. Same for all professions.

The feature patch did buff many other aspects of elementalist, in your opinion, if you take away celestial amulet, and played valk with D/D and cleric with staff, would that still be good just not OverPowered, or do you have other ideas?

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Vain, your post says it all.

I found your flow chart really amusing. There is no doubt that these classes are currently too strong.

The amulet is somewhat to blame. But both engi and ele have more abilities than other classes. This means they are not as prone to the big burst then wait that every other class suffers from. This also means that they have more sustain and deliver more types of damage. They also can stack might easily. All this contributes to make this amulet too strong.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I want to point out, to anyone reading this, that listing reasons why Cele is overpowered is no longer really that relevant. Ask anyone and they know and I’m sure the balance devs are aware of this, the PROBLEM is that no one has a solution.

My solution: Remove Celestial amulet from PvP
Alternative solutions I’ve heard elsewhere:
*add sigil that just removes might stacks on short colddown
*nerf might stacking ability
*nerf specifically elementalists in numerous ways

what are YOUR suggested fixes??

Relentliss.2170:

I found your flow chart really amusing. There is no doubt that these classes are currently too strong.

The amulet is somewhat to blame. But both engi and ele have more abilities than other classes. This means they are not as prone to the big burst then wait that every other class suffers from. This also means that they have more sustain and deliver more types of damage. They also can stack might easily. All this contributes to make this amulet too strong.

Thank you, I made that stupid late at night and was just glad I didn’t forget to mention a class or something lol

Firebird.8324:

Ozie, do you have any solid suggestions to fix the Cele meta? Since you are, in fact, a celestial D/D ele

I never have and never will play ele because its a build that I will never be good at, know why? Because it has a high skill cap and actually good eles (Phant, Denshee,Wakkey etc etc) have a 2 year head start on me.

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

This is why I made a satirical flowchart so EVERYONE can enjoy (cough cough) the meta.

Ozie.4176:

Firebird.8324:

Ozie, do you have any solid suggestions to fix the Cele meta? Since you are, in fact, a celestial D/D ele

I never have and never will play ele because its a build that I will never be good at, know why? Because it has a high skill cap and actually good eles (Phant, Denshee,Wakkey etc etc) have a 2 year head start on me.

you haven’t seen thrackits video and the miracles it can perform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-asTr2PRAg

Firebird.8324:

Ozie.4176:

Firebird.8324:

Ozie, do you have any solid suggestions to fix the Cele meta? Since you are, in fact, a celestial D/D ele

I never have and never will play ele because its a build that I will never be good at, know why? Because it has a high skill cap and actually good eles (Phant, Denshee,Wakkey etc etc) have a 2 year head start on me.

you haven’t seen thrackits video and the miracles it can perform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-asTr2PRAg

There is no point watching this video. This video will not make you a good ele. There is a reason why I didn’t list Thrackits name, he does not compare to the people I listed.

Chaith.8256:

Question to people that hate the Cele bruiser meta. Why? Can anyone please articulate their thoughts on the toxicity of Cele bruisers for the enjoyment of the game.

I didn’t read the rest of this post, but screw it. Here’s my reasons why I hate this meta:

1. It Minimalizes Working Builds – No one plays bunker guardian. Why? Did it get weaker? No. We just gained the ability to have builds that work in pretty much every situation. The teamwork factor that comes with proper rotations is gone. It’s just about matching numbers and being a better cele. There are no “jobs” anymore. I don’t make a build with the intend of a single goal like bursting, support or bunkering, I make a build with the intent of being able to do everything.
2. Certain aspects of play are gone – Rotating the right stuff to the right place has turned into just matching numbers. Watching out for bursts is pretty much gone. It’s just outsustain right now. You might go for a focus fire, but that’s not really the same thing. Stomps are also pretty rare now, especially in team fights. No bunker guardian made it so players are pretty much only going for DPS outs, even against things like warriors! DPSing out a target isn’t really that interesting to me. The play of trying to maintain DPS so you can get a stomp off is a lot more interesting.
3. Mobility isn’t a counter – These comps play on all three points. They’re pretty kitten fast too unless you’re taking a necromancer. Thief, ele and engi are all really fast.
4. They’re really hard to duel against – It’s not about getting a good burst off, it’s about getting multiple bursts off while not letting them even get one. If I want to kill a cele engi on power nades, I’ve found that I need anywhere from 2-4 really good bursts to get them down. In a row. They really only need to maintain pressure via burning and occasionally get a few hits in.
5. It DOES take less skill – Is the skill ceiling still high? Yes. There are a lot of things you can do with cele engi and ele to make yourself the best in the world. But the punishment for kittening those things up is WAY lower than most builds. On burst builds, kittening up, having bad positioning or focusing the wrong guy could equal death. Don’t even get me started on 100 mines and other like yolo builds.
6. Burning On Cele is Dumb – This goes a bit beyond cele, but I think it’s a big reason why it works. Engineer has incendiary powder which is really hard to avoid. Ele has drake’s breath which requires two dodges to fully avoid and burns you for eternity (12s on a 6s recharge). Combustive Shot burns everyone. If you miss with this, uninstall GW2.
7. Sustain is really hard to stop – For warrior, it’s healing signet which they never use and traits that regen them. For engineer, it’s a 1/2 cast time skill, backpack regenerator and transmute. For ele, it’s a dodge in water, small healing on all casts, regeneration and two skills you can actually interrupt. The only real good counter is poison, but they remove it so much that you need a crazy amount of poison to do it!
8. Games going to Timer – Because there’s three decaps almost all the time, it’s boring to play and watch. I vastly prefer the super active fights where doing something wrong can spell death, not a slight loss in health. I want people to be making PLAYS, not just trying to stall the game/fights. “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND HE GOES DOWN” instead of “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND I THINK IF HE CAN GET LIKE 4 MORE IN THE NEXT 10 SECONDS WE MIGHT SEE SOMEONE DIE”.
9. In the ideal game, every build is equally viable – Cele is a meta right now. People want to play their style of builds and not be worse off for it.
   
   The concept of a build being able to do everything is broken. It’s called “Holes in Roles”. There are no decently enough sized holes in these builds.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Chaith.8256:

Question to people that hate the Cele bruiser meta. Why? Can anyone please articulate their thoughts on the toxicity of Cele bruisers for the enjoyment of the game.

I didn’t read the rest of this post, but screw it. Here’s my reasons why I hate this meta:

1. It Minimalizes Working Builds – No one plays bunker guardian. Why? Did it get weaker? No. We just gained the ability to have builds that work in pretty much every situation. The teamwork factor that comes with proper rotations is gone. It’s just about matching numbers and being a better cele. There are no “jobs” anymore. I don’t make a build with the intend of a single goal like bursting, support or bunkering, I make a build with the intent of being able to do everything.
2. Certain aspects of play are gone – Rotating the right stuff to the right place has turned into just matching numbers. Watching out for bursts is pretty much gone. It’s just outsustain right now. You might go for a focus fire, but that’s not really the same thing. Stomps are also pretty rare now, especially in team fights. No bunker guardian made it so players are pretty much only going for DPS outs, even against things like warriors! DPSing out a target isn’t really that interesting to me. The play of trying to maintain DPS so you can get a stomp off is a lot more interesting.
3. Mobility isn’t a counter – These comps play on all three points. They’re pretty kitten fast too unless you’re taking a necromancer. Thief, ele and engi are all really fast.
4. They’re really hard to duel against – It’s not about getting a good burst off, it’s about getting multiple bursts off while not letting them even get one. If I want to kill a cele engi on power nades, I’ve found that I need anywhere from 2-4 really good bursts to get them down. In a row. They really only need to maintain pressure via burning and occasionally get a few hits in.
5. It DOES take less skill – Is the skill ceiling still high? Yes. There are a lot of things you can do with cele engi and ele to make yourself the best in the world. But the punishment for kittening those things up is WAY lower than most builds. On burst builds, kittening up, having bad positioning or focusing the wrong guy could equal death. Don’t even get me started on 100 mines and other like yolo builds.
6. Burning On Cele is Dumb – This goes a bit beyond cele, but I think it’s a big reason why it works. Engineer has incendiary powder which is really hard to avoid. Ele has drake’s breath which requires two dodges to fully avoid and burns you for eternity (12s on a 6s recharge). Combustive Shot burns everyone. If you miss with this, uninstall GW2.
7. Sustain is really hard to stop – For warrior, it’s healing signet which they never use and traits that regen them. For engineer, it’s a 1/2 cast time skill, backpack regenerator and transmute. For ele, it’s a dodge in water, small healing on all casts, regeneration and two skills you can actually interrupt. The only real good counter is poison, but they remove it so much that you need a crazy amount of poison to do it!
8. Games going to Timer – Because there’s three decaps almost all the time, it’s boring to play and watch. I vastly prefer the super active fights where doing something wrong can spell death, not a slight loss in health. I want people to be making PLAYS, not just trying to stall the game/fights. “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND HE GOES DOWN” instead of “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND I THINK IF HE CAN GET LIKE 4 MORE IN THE NEXT 10 SECONDS WE MIGHT SEE SOMEONE DIE”.
9. In the ideal game, every build is equally viable – Cele is a meta right now. People want to play their style of builds and not be worse off for it.
   
   The concept of a build being able to do everything is broken. It’s called “Holes in Roles”. There are no decently enough sized holes in these builds.

You put into words the thoughts of many, nice Post.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

Firebird.8324:

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

Chaith.8256:

Firebird.8324:

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

TCG does not run Cele garbage, so ofc things like soldier war can work against them, sorry I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead.

Firebird.8324:

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

TCG does not run Cele garbage, so ofc things like soldier war can work against them, sorry I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead.

Hmm… R O M On Cele War and Denshee on Cele Ele? Sometimes Tage on Cele Guard, but usually not. Pretty much the standard amount of Cele builds.

“I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead”

You’re only being rude because I’m providing evidence that you don’t have to have 5 Cele Eles and Engies to be good at the game.

All anybody has to say in this thread is “Cele Amulet is whack” and Firebird will send you a Christmas card

Chaith.8256:

Firebird.8324:

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

TCG does not run Cele garbage, so ofc things like soldier war can work against them, sorry I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead.[/quote]

Hmm… R O M On Cele War and Denshee on Cele Ele? Sometimes Tage on Cele Guard, but usually not. Pretty much the standard amount of Cele builds.

“I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead”

You’re only being a kitten because I’m providing evidence that you don’t have to have 5 Cele Eles and Engies to be good at the game.

[/quote]

I have never said you had to have “5” I said 3-5, look back a few pages before you rewrite my words. Also, sorry if I seem angry at you specifically, but I have lost ANY shred of respect for you when you trolled my teammates in game.

Also there is a term known as “outlier” which is defined as:
a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.

Chaith, I have no problem with any team’s rotation tactics. I understand the strategy right now, it’s nearly aligned with out-cheesing your opponent.

I’ve read through this entire thread, and there have been points that you’ve specifically stated you need 2-3 celestials to be successful at a “top” level. Essentially, you need the sustain across the board to compete at this level, otherwise you’re going to be annoyed to death by one of the Cele users.

Question, Chaith. Why is it you’re defending this meta so heavily? Is it influenced by your earnings at WTS? It’s impossible for me to ask you to look at this from an objective standpoint, seeing as you earned however many dollars utilizing the cheese. I don’t blame you for using it, you got the W. Play to win. But, for you to run across this thread with the underlying arrogant and belittling attitude you have towards other people that don’t agree with you, is completely laughable.

If you haven’t figured it out, it looks like you’re defending what made you money. I think at this point, your voice isn’t being heard. So, unless you want to be looked at with a critical eye, I would suggest a different approach or to remain silent.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Chaith.8256:

Question to people that hate the Cele bruiser meta. Why? Can anyone please articulate their thoughts on the toxicity of Cele bruisers for the enjoyment of the game.

I didn’t read the rest of this post, but screw it. Here’s my reasons why I hate this meta:

1. It Minimalizes Working Builds – No one plays bunker guardian. Why? Did it get weaker? No. We just gained the ability to have builds that work in pretty much every situation. The teamwork factor that comes with proper rotations is gone. It’s just about matching numbers and being a better cele. There are no “jobs” anymore. I don’t make a build with the intend of a single goal like bursting, support or bunkering, I make a build with the intent of being able to do everything.
2. Certain aspects of play are gone – Rotating the right stuff to the right place has turned into just matching numbers. Watching out for bursts is pretty much gone. It’s just outsustain right now. You might go for a focus fire, but that’s not really the same thing. Stomps are also pretty rare now, especially in team fights. No bunker guardian made it so players are pretty much only going for DPS outs, even against things like warriors! DPSing out a target isn’t really that interesting to me. The play of trying to maintain DPS so you can get a stomp off is a lot more interesting.
3. Mobility isn’t a counter – These comps play on all three points. They’re pretty kitten fast too unless you’re taking a necromancer. Thief, ele and engi are all really fast.
4. They’re really hard to duel against – It’s not about getting a good burst off, it’s about getting multiple bursts off while not letting them even get one. If I want to kill a cele engi on power nades, I’ve found that I need anywhere from 2-4 really good bursts to get them down. In a row. They really only need to maintain pressure via burning and occasionally get a few hits in.
5. It DOES take less skill – Is the skill ceiling still high? Yes. There are a lot of things you can do with cele engi and ele to make yourself the best in the world. But the punishment for kittening those things up is WAY lower than most builds. On burst builds, kittening up, having bad positioning or focusing the wrong guy could equal death. Don’t even get me started on 100 mines and other like yolo builds.
6. Burning On Cele is Dumb – This goes a bit beyond cele, but I think it’s a big reason why it works. Engineer has incendiary powder which is really hard to avoid. Ele has drake’s breath which requires two dodges to fully avoid and burns you for eternity (12s on a 6s recharge). Combustive Shot burns everyone. If you miss with this, uninstall GW2.
7. Sustain is really hard to stop – For warrior, it’s healing signet which they never use and traits that regen them. For engineer, it’s a 1/2 cast time skill, backpack regenerator and transmute. For ele, it’s a dodge in water, small healing on all casts, regeneration and two skills you can actually interrupt. The only real good counter is poison, but they remove it so much that you need a crazy amount of poison to do it!
8. Games going to Timer – Because there’s three decaps almost all the time, it’s boring to play and watch. I vastly prefer the super active fights where doing something wrong can spell death, not a slight loss in health. I want people to be making PLAYS, not just trying to stall the game/fights. “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND HE GOES DOWN” instead of “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND I THINK IF HE CAN GET LIKE 4 MORE IN THE NEXT 10 SECONDS WE MIGHT SEE SOMEONE DIE”.
9. In the ideal game, every build is equally viable – Cele is a meta right now. People want to play their style of builds and not be worse off for it.
   
   The concept of a build being able to do everything is broken. It’s called “Holes in Roles”. There are no decently enough sized holes in these builds.

Great post, couldn’t word it better. Thank you.

Wait a minute…. I thought EU was ahead of us in meta…. so if TCG and CM aren’t using cele…. that just means NA just needs to l2p right?

How come everytime another team outhinks or out plays another team it’s suddenly cheese…..

DevilsGlare.7658:

Chaith, I have no problem with any team’s rotation tactics. I understand the strategy right now, it’s nearly aligned with out-cheesing your opponent.

I’ve read through this entire thread, and there have been points that you’ve specifically stated you need 2-3 celestials to be successful at a “top” level. Essentially, you need the sustain across the board to compete at this level, otherwise you’re going to be annoyed to death by one of the Cele users.

Question, Chaith. Why is it you’re defending this meta so heavily? Is it influenced by your earnings at WTS? It’s impossible for me to ask you to look at this from an objective standpoint, seeing as you earned however many dollars utilizing the cheese. I don’t blame you for using it, you got the W. Play to win. But, for you to run across this thread with the underlying arrogant and belittling attitude you have towards other people that don’t agree with you, is completely laughable.

If you haven’t figured it out, it looks like you’re defending what made you money. I think at this point, your voice isn’t being heard. So, unless you want to be looked at with a critical eye, I would suggest a different approach or to remain silent.

Every meta in this game has been coined “cheese”, I don’t think ANet will be able to balance it to where everything is that close to equal
Celetsial Meta- Skill-less Cheese
Bunker Meta- Skill-less cheese
Condi Meta-Skill-less cheese
I will admit i was not around for much of the power meta, that being said I have heard the myths and legends so i will assume..
Power Meta (HB warriors and insta kills)-Skill-less cheese

As far as calling this strategy cheese? The current 5v5 requires better rotations than any meta before… the old fashioned 1-4 was easy kitten compared to this meta.

Firebird.8324:

Ozie, do you have any solid suggestions to fix the Cele meta? Since you are, in fact, a celestial D/D ele

Sorry, but again you must be kittened. Ozie has never mained ele. His main has always been bunker guardian.

not as funny as the old warrior one

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Chaith, I have no problem with any team’s rotation tactics. I understand the strategy right now, it’s nearly aligned with out-cheesing your opponent.

I’ve read through this entire thread, and there have been points that you’ve specifically stated you need 2-3 celestials to be successful at a “top” level. Essentially, you need the sustain across the board to compete at this level, otherwise you’re going to be annoyed to death by one of the Cele users.

Question, Chaith. Why is it you’re defending this meta so heavily? Is it influenced by your earnings at WTS? It’s impossible for me to ask you to look at this from an objective standpoint, seeing as you earned however many dollars utilizing the cheese. I don’t blame you for using it, you got the W. Play to win. But, for you to run across this thread with the underlying arrogant and belittling attitude you have towards other people that don’t agree with you, is completely laughable.

If you haven’t figured it out, it looks like you’re defending what made you money. I think at this point, your voice isn’t being heard. So, unless you want to be looked at with a critical eye, I would suggest a different approach or to remain silent.

Every meta in this game has been coined “cheese”, I don’t think ANet will be able to balance it to where everything is that close to equal
Celetsial Meta- Skill-less Cheese
Bunker Meta- Skill-less cheese
Condi Meta-Skill-less cheese
I will admit i was not around for much of the power meta, that being said I have heard the myths and legends so i will assume..
Power Meta (HB warriors and insta kills)-Skill-less cheese

As far as calling this strategy cheese? The current 5v5 requires better rotations than any meta before… the old fashioned 1-4 was easy kitten compared to this meta.

I wouldn’t quote Chaith just because he said so. Our team was pretty successful back then, and ran multiple strategies. 2-1-2, 0-1-4, 1-3-1, and sometimes we wouldn’t even cap home but snowball far and mid to force a triple cap and numbers advantage. No, it wasn’t just a standard split back then.