Guild Wars 2

leman.7682:

REMOVE THE CHEESE that was pumped into the game.

B-but my Infiltrators getoutofjailfreeIcanbeasbadasIwantandyoucan’tpunishme Strike and my Larcenous ThosesureEVADEaresomeniceEVADEboonsyouhavethereEVADEitwouldbeashameifEVADEanythinghappenedtothem Strike.

Velron.3729:

This is leading right back to my point I always make.

The nodes are too small. The reason the AOE feels too strong is bc the nodes are too small. The reason grenades are insanely effective is because on a small node they hit most of the area. A chill grenade WILL hit the whole area, traited bombs are almost the size of the node, traited Necro marks are the size of the node, etc.

Not to mention that if the nodes were bigger (and even allowed for some obstructions, say waterfall on foe fire having its range extended include some of the water) would make some weapons more viable. For example, the Ele Staff is harder to play in PvP due to it being a ranged weapon. The points are so small that this weapon must be played in melee – 600. If the points included some of the obstructions (with easy routes to get in and out) then it could be more exciting fighting over the point from both the players point and from the steaming point. Watching 2 people duel is 1 thing, watching them duel and using obstructions to keep themselves alive when down to the last 100 hp it much more exciting.

Currently another issue is that a fair few AoEs cover the whole point, or most of it. Having a larger point would bring out more skilful play than just placing aoes and forgetting about them later, knowing they will hit the enemy.

Allie Murdock.8152:

but please understand that a bad balance patch that is rushed is not a good balance patch. Balance is an extremely important aspect of the game, which is why we can’t just rush changes without allowing the meta to adapt

I don’t want to be negative or cynic in any way, but wasn’t that the case in the last patch in terms of necromancers?

stof.9341:

Khisanth.2948:

As a Grenade spamming PvE engineer(also warrior, thief and elementalist. the rest are not played as much) who does not play sPvP I have to ask. Is the typical PvPer really so terrible than they will just stand in one spot and let an engineer spam grenades on them?

How else do you suggest preventing the engineer from capping the point?

I am a bit confused by your question. To cap a point you would need to be inside the designated area. If the engineer is capping the point then they are inside, all the more reason you should not be standing around letting the engineer use you as target practice. So I am going to assume you somehow make your way in to the area. Now that you are both in the capture area the engineer is no longer safely lobbing grenades from a distance because those areas do not seem to be very large(but I’ve only see Kyhlo). After that I assume you will use whatever you have available to try and kill the engineer.

I am not sure what sequence of events you have in mind but the above is what I see from reading your question.

Allie Murdock.8152:

2. Consider the creative mind of the playerbase.

• Sometimes, there are really good builds that are not discovered for months on end. This is affected by our current playerbase, as well as a revolving meta.
• This is not meant as a slight, but the truth is that sometimes things are changing so quickly that you guys just don’t have time to explore new builds and find that one gem that has escaped others.

Do these builds usually come out on their own or do the devs usually know about their potential ahead of time through designing the game (trait implementations/weapons skills and whatnot)? It would be interesting to see a blog post that shines a light on a single example of a gem build that the devs designed but has yet to see wide use.

Khisanth.2948:

stof.9341:

Khisanth.2948:

As a Grenade spamming PvE engineer(also warrior, thief and elementalist. the rest are not played as much) who does not play sPvP I have to ask. Is the typical PvPer really so terrible than they will just stand in one spot and let an engineer spam grenades on them?

How else do you suggest preventing the engineer from capping the point?

I am a bit confused by your question. To cap a point you would need to be inside the designated area. If the engineer is capping the point then they are inside, all the more reason you should not be standing around letting the engineer use you as target practice. So I am going to assume you somehow make your way in to the area. Now that you are both in the capture area the engineer is no longer safely lobbing grenades from a distance because those areas do not seem to be very large(but I’ve only see Kyhlo). After that I assume you will use whatever you have available to try and kill the engineer.

I am not sure what sequence of events you have in mind but the above is what I see from reading your question.

If you let the other player alone in the point for a couple seconds, the point goes back to neutral. It is VERY short.

Also, team fight. Say the node fight is down to a 2v2 with the engineer safely away and some more tanky spec contesting the point. What do you do then?

Allie Murdock.8152:

how you would feel if you dedicated most of your time to something that people constantly bash.

A bit of an easy dodge isn’t it?

I’d say that most of the bashing, once stripped off of the Internet nerd rage, actually holds some valid points.

Also, there is no denying the incoherences with which the game was designed.

1/ you wanted an easy to understand game accessible to everyone and simplified skills but the fast pace of fights, the visual mess of team fights, the complexity of the build system and the absolute lack of info on what killed you make the learning curve awfully steep.

2/ you wanted an esport but the fast pace and the particle effects make it a chore to watch and shout cast any game. Why do you think Grouch keeps repeating “looks like” “it seems” or “I guess” all the time? Why do all shout casters struggle to comment on team fights (except when the action slows down with rezzes?)

3/ you wanted a community driven pvp but denied all competitive infrastructure for months and months. 3 rounds tournaments with no matchmaking? Paid tournaments? No team ladder? Custom arenas that support only one game at the time? No obs mode?

You guys wanted to try something new with gw2, fair enough, I’ll always have the deepest respect for people willing to take risks and go in new directions.

But that new road you’re building, it’s full of holes. Holes you made yourselves and still haven’t fixed:(

anzenketh.3759:

Balancing a game is hard and requires understanding more then just numbers. It requires a bit of philosophy and understanding player behavior. The following videos might give you some insight of the topic to help you address your true concern more precisely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU

great post thank you!

stof.9341:

Khisanth.2948:

stof.9341:

Khisanth.2948:

As a Grenade spamming PvE engineer(also warrior, thief and elementalist. the rest are not played as much) who does not play sPvP I have to ask. Is the typical PvPer really so terrible than they will just stand in one spot and let an engineer spam grenades on them?

How else do you suggest preventing the engineer from capping the point?

I am a bit confused by your question. To cap a point you would need to be inside the designated area. If the engineer is capping the point then they are inside, all the more reason you should not be standing around letting the engineer use you as target practice. So I am going to assume you somehow make your way in to the area. Now that you are both in the capture area the engineer is no longer safely lobbing grenades from a distance because those areas do not seem to be very large(but I’ve only see Kyhlo). After that I assume you will use whatever you have available to try and kill the engineer.

I am not sure what sequence of events you have in mind but the above is what I see from reading your question.

If you let the other player alone in the point for a couple seconds, the point goes back to neutral. It is VERY short.

Also, team fight. Say the node fight is down to a 2v2 with the engineer safely away and some more tanky spec contesting the point. What do you do then?

Hmm did you mean 1v2? That would give you an inherent disadvantage.

If you really meant 2v2 then one person stays while the other person goes after the engineer. Engineer is still not safely lobbing grenades from a distance, especially if your partner has ranged attacks. Do you need a numerical advantage in the capture point to continue capturing? If so it is still better to let it fall to neutral when the alternative to stand around and get killed.

Also what is “safely away”? As I’ve said I don’t play sPvP but if there are maps with locations where you can safely snipe people with grenades(or anything else) near a node then that is an issue with the map than needs fixing. There should be nice vantage points but not locations where you can safely attack with no risk of retaliation.

""As a Grenade spamming PvE engineer(also warrior, thief and elementalist. the rest are not played as much) who does not play sPvP I have to ask. Is the typical PvPer really so terrible than they will just stand in one spot and let an engineer spam grenades on them? Even with PvE mobs you have to account for their movement, this is usually easy but it is still possible to misjudge. I would expect actual players to be better. Grenades are neither instant nor the fastest flying projectiles either.

So assuming people are smart enough to move then the engineer must also move to maintain distance. Without bothering with the other issues this now requires the engineer to correctly aim the grenades while both the engineer and the target are on the move. This does not require any skill at all? People are still charging at the engineer in a straight line at a consistent speed? If they replace Shrapnel Grenade with a Stun Grenade then this might be more accurate.""

Do you honestly believe that your range AoE condition based build is completly balanced with a power based melee build?

Not knocking on HGH at all, but more a long the lines of AoE Range Spammage builds in general. I think every one who PvP’s by now realizes you cannot go in there with a power based melee build and expect to win against condition spamming builds who kite you. This game has always favored range over melee, in PvE, PvP and even WvW. I love my power/toughness based guardian shout build. But I certainly can not take it in TPvP, I dont have a choice but to go bunker. Sure I can use Judges Intervention, completly forecast my attack with my GS and get slowed and kited again, but I’ll still loose.

+1 from a power/toughness guardian, even though I can never use it in TPvP.

Littlefeather.8623:

This game has always favored range over melee, in PvE, PvP and even WvW.

Since when melee sucked in pve? Have you looked at dungeon speed run records? They use mostly melee.

Melee train is the meta in top WvWvW. Majority is melee train is hammer + sword/warhorn warriors, followed then by guardians. Supported by a few staff elementalists, necromancers and mesmers. Some top teams use a ranger and a thief as well, but generally medium armor professions are not part of WvWvW meta.

E.g. look at this list of the world’s top WvWvW guilds. You can see a lot of their game play videos at youtube. It is very heavy melee oriented and pure ranged teams run away.
http://gw2gvg.com/

Littlefeather.8623:

Not knocking on HGH at all, but more a long the lines of AoE Range Spammage builds in general. I think every one who PvP’s by now realizes you cannot go in there with a power based melee build and expect to win against condition spamming builds who kite you. This game has always favored range over melee, in PvE, PvP and even WvW. I love my power/toughness based guardian shout build. But I certainly can not take it in TPvP, I dont have a choice but to go bunker. Sure I can use Judges Intervention, completly forecast my attack with my GS and get slowed and kited again, but I’ll still loose.

Maybe I should have been less passive on pushing this point but if you force someone to move away/kite/etc. that is not longer ‘safely lobbing grenades from a distance’.

I don’t use a condition build or a direct damage build. More a middle of the road build with a lean towards direct damage.

Direct damage is nice but I like to keep a bit of condition damage around in my builds for those times when I can’t attack for whatever reason.

Bumping this thread because it is the best post this forum may ever see.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Littlefeather.8623:

This game has always favored range over melee, in PvE, PvP and even WvW.

Since when melee sucked in pve? Have you looked at dungeon speed run records? They use mostly melee.

Melee train is the meta in top WvWvW. Majority is melee train is hammer + sword/warhorn warriors, followed then by guardians. Supported by a few staff elementalists, necromancers and mesmers. Some top teams use a ranger and a thief as well, but generally medium armor professions are not part of WvWvW meta.

E.g. look at this list of the world’s top WvWvW guilds. You can see a lot of their game play videos at youtube. It is very heavy melee oriented and pure ranged teams run away.
http://gw2gvg.com/

I am fully aware of the need to guardians in WvW, but generally speaking; aside from spamming #1 in a zerg with a few utilities; we are very limited to how we can contribute. And we are usually always the first ones down with the spammage casters just sitting back in the cut.

In PvE range aoe spammers can make as many mistakes as they want, their still just pressing buttons, while as a guardian, semi offtank, im pressing buttons, dodge rolling, healing, etc. Its less forgiving for melee, v range. And even now with necros for example, they can burst condition some one down before they even get touched.

This thread is way too important for unconstructiveness and posts about PvE and WvW.
Keep it elsewhere, thanks!

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

This thread is way too important for unconstructiveness and posts about PvE and WvW.
Keep it elsewhere, thanks!

yes it is, the other guy brought it up, just talking about the trend overall.

I only skimmed through the OP posts, and while I can tell there are very few threads on these forums that can hold a candle to it (Lost Potential comes to mind), I am afraid that it would take a GW3 to implement all the proposed – and well-warranted – changes.
That is how big of an overhaul I believe it would take. Having said that, I’m all for it.

I am glad there are players who took their time to reply in a very constructive manner. Thanks, everyone.

It took me long time to sort it all out, a lot of thought and many very long discussions with other players, some of whom posted already in this very topic.

I realize the changes we’re talking about would shake things like nothing before. I would say that while I’m unsure of the effect of those changes in WvW, I feel these changes could definitely help PvE. I don’t think that this particular offensive AoE which we’re trying to fix sees that much of an exposure in PvE. Conditions neither and I also think that the condi fix proposed early actually helps PvE players.

I, for one, would love to have a vulnerability well on my necro to debuff a whole group so that a warrior can HB them until only dust remains. Having mostly a utility-focused AoE would just push people towards more cooperation, like picking and spiking targets one after another, would work in PvE the same as in PvP. Of course some tunings to dungeon themselves and the density of opponents would have to be implemented alongside to keep it fun and balanced. We already know that original dungeon reworks are coming.

The risk is, PvE players could be annoyed by those changes, if they just happened one day. It is up to the devs to start a discussion about it with the Community. The sooner, the better.

Also,

Ps. this is what happens when you ask for transparency. Allie writes an essay during her lunch hour xD

Brutal Arts.6307:

B-but my Infiltrators getoutofjailfreeIcanbeasbadasIwantandyoucan’tpunishme Strike and my Larcenous ThosesureEVADEaresomeniceEVADEboonsyouhavethereEVADEitwouldbeashameifEVADEanythinghappenedtothem Strike.

Those things gave me a long hysterical laughter.

Bump for awesome thread and mr Leman

I DEMAND that all Anet employees have to play the game at least 4 hours out of 8 during their WORK TIME and be PAID for it. Also at a request of anet employee working in spvp this PAID TIME can be extended to 6 hours out of 8 without the superior manager being allowed to say no. i want to see them Anets working themselves to top rating and know every kitten thing about balance that there is to know :P because when i read this “we work 9 hours and play the game in our off time”.. well thats a sad story imo.

Steelo.4597:

I DEMAND that all Anet employees have to play the game at least 4 hours out of 8 during their WORK TIME and be PAID for it. Also at a request of anet employee working in spvp this PAID TIME can be extended to 6 hours out of 8 without the superior manager being allowed to say no. i want to see them Anets working themselves to top rating and know every kitten thing about balance that there is to know :P because when i read this “we work 9 hours and play the game in our off time”.. well thats a sad story imo.

Would you also be happy for the bi monthly patches to be changed to once every two months as a result of this, because by cutting down their actual work time this would be a result.

OP wants the game like GW1. I do too, a game based around balance. No rng, condition spam, skilless aoe.

Unfortunately, Anet probably fired the developers who created the gw1 pvp system or those developers turned against their first principles and created a game that is everything gw1 was not.

Gw2 has a lot of issues. One is there aren’t enough skill diversity. And there aren’t many skills to keep other skill types in check.

For example, thief and ranger can evade spam. I see the thief evasion skills being the subject to complaint often. However this would not be the case if we had skills that negated evade, just like warrior has signet of might to negate block.

In gw1, there were skills to offset conditions. Not just condition removal. There were skills like Melandru’s Resilience that gave +regen for every condition on you. The result is you wouldn’t lose health but instead gain it. Gw2 lacks basic fundamentals such as that, where every skill has a polar opposite.

Gw2 would have to be reworked from the ground up in order to be something pvpers really enjoy. The game is full of cheese because Anet allows certain mechanics to go unchecked. Its unlikely Anet will ever make any great changes because the way the foundation is built, it simply doesn’t allow it.

The only thing they could do is introduce more counter skills. And possibly do away with the trait system. Interesting how they copied the wow skill tree, but failed to realize that blizzard got smart enough to know that passive traits aren’t very exciting or balanced.

The trait system giving players new skills would be more fitting, then they could just fold in the passive effects and such into the normal skills and weapons.

papaganoosh.7908:

Steelo.4597:

I DEMAND that all Anet employees have to play the game at least 4 hours out of 8 during their WORK TIME and be PAID for it. Also at a request of anet employee working in spvp this PAID TIME can be extended to 6 hours out of 8 without the superior manager being allowed to say no. i want to see them Anets working themselves to top rating and know every kitten thing about balance that there is to know :P because when i read this “we work 9 hours and play the game in our off time”.. well thats a sad story imo.

Would you also be happy for the bi monthly patches to be changed to once every two months as a result of this, because by cutting down their actual work time this would be a result.

Well they have to find a balance. A balance patch every 2 weeks, that creates such scenarios as the recent one is not productive either. And after that they need 2 weeks more to try fix the unbalance they created. And sometimes it didn’t work out, so they have to sit another 2 weeks at it, to get back at status Quo.
The scenario by Steelo shouldn’t be over an unlimited period either, but for, let’s say 1 month, to get into this game, and actually understand which pattern they have to shift.

Theory is good, but without actual practice, it looses its worth.

Great read and great post.

@Allie

I totally understand the implication/complication of making such massive changes but no one expects them to be done overnight. I think nearly everyone in this post agrees with the OP’s suggestions hence they must be valid to a good extent.

As long as the developers know about the general direction they should take when implementing future patches/fixes, I think most of us will be satisfied.

Personally, I think the FIRST thing to do is to increase capture points in pvp. Every point should be the size of FoeFire GY point. Most maps have the space available while some (Forest of Niflhel keep point) would require map re-adjustments. T’
Secondly we should deal with condition spam and ranged AoE damage in general.

These changes will tone down the AoE spam that is dominating the meta and make way for future changes covered by the OP which can be implemented gradually.

~Visibility

This post is old but applies more than ever.

Sirendor.1394:

~Visibility

This post is old but applies more than ever.

Krysard.1364:

Sirendor.1394:

~Visibility

This post is old but applies more than ever.

Don’t copy the name when you copy a pasta.

Loving this.
Digging out smthng like this is like a big punch in the face of all ‘the game used to be great but HoT ruined it/elitespecs ruined it/trait overhaul ruined it’-folks.
Wouldnt be suprised if people soon started to talk about how great season 1 was.

But then again there is the darker side of this.
-Fool me once, shame on you.
-Fool me twice, shame on me.
In other words: Why are they making the same mistake again?
-Condition spam
-Boon spam
-Perma evades
-AoE
-Passive procs
-And once again they take too much time to properly respond
I was kinda hoping they would get their kitten together and fix the game…
But if they are repeating 6/7 2 year old mistakes…doesnt look like they’ve learned anything.

Allie Murdock.8152:

*

GW2 is too polarizing, it has always been. Skills and mechanics either work very well (to the point of cheese) or do they do not work well at all. Why? There isn’t enough counter play available to many mechanics that exist in the game. This leads to the perpetual cycle of players asking developers to nerf something because its too strong, because the counter either doesn’t exist in game or because the counter is too weak to be a threat.

Without a viable counter it allows players to spam endlessly without much thought of being punished for it. I doubt this will ever change either, since GW2 has been out since 2012 and the game has been having the same extreme balance problems since launch.

The solution has always been there, INTRODUCE more counter play mechanics. Dealing with players who abuse evade? There should modest portion of skills that go through evade. Got a player who abuses block? There should be more skills that are unblockable. Got a player who abuses stealth? There should be more anti stealth skills that exist for each class.

Furthermore each classes role should be distinct. At some point Anet released a design philosophy for each class and why they functioned the way they did. With the xpac, anet just tossed that philosophy out the window.

Here are Anets philosophy for each class, why on earth doesn’t the game follow this design anymore?

Class balance philosophies

We normally try to employ metered and controlled balance changes with each pass, rather than huge reductions or improvements to classes. We want to get all classes on the same playing field, and we want to avoid “whack-a-mole” style balance. HUGH increases and HUGE decreases lead to meta instability, and thusly, we try to make multiple small tweaks rather than putting in massive changes that we have to later correct.

When designing and balancing the classes, we try to make sure that class roles and identities stay intact. So, in doing so, we make sure that there are rules and boundaries outlining the capabilities and weaknesses of each class.

Warrior We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

Guardian The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

Ranger The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.

Engineer The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

Thief Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

Mesmer Mesmers rely on illusions in order to accomplish their goals. They need illusions to accomplish some of their highest damage and control, and without the illusions, they become fairly fragile. They can deal with enemy boons better than most classes, but enemy conditions can often be a problem. They share some of the stealth and mobility that the Thief enjoys, but suffer from a low health pool if you get past all their tricks.

Ele We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.

Necro The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

Going forward
•Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.
•AOE balance. We feel that in PvP some AOE builds are too strong for the opportunity cost, and we’ll be bringing those in line in the next few patches.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

Aza.2105:

Here are Anets philosophy for each class, why on earth doesn’t the game follow this design anymore?

Class balance philosophies

We normally try to employ metered and controlled balance changes with each pass, rather than huge reductions or improvements to classes. We want to get all classes on the same playing field, and we want to avoid “whack-a-mole” style balance. HUGH increases and HUGE decreases lead to meta instability, and thusly, we try to make multiple small tweaks rather than putting in massive changes that we have to later correct.

When designing and balancing the classes, we try to make sure that class roles and identities stay intact. So, in doing so, we make sure that there are rules and boundaries outlining the capabilities and weaknesses of each class.

Warrior We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

Guardian The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

Ranger The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.

Engineer The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

Thief Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

Mesmer Mesmers rely on illusions in order to accomplish their goals. They need illusions to accomplish some of their highest damage and control, and without the illusions, they become fairly fragile. They can deal with enemy boons better than most classes, but enemy conditions can often be a problem. They share some of the stealth and mobility that the Thief enjoys, but suffer from a low health pool if you get past all their tricks.

Ele We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.

Necro The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

Going forward
•Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.
•AOE balance. We feel that in PvP some AOE builds are too strong for the opportunity cost, and we’ll be bringing those in line in the next few patches.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

The devs who designed the classes and understood the need for “rock, paper, scissors” kind of gameplay are not devs who are there now. They left for new ventures. It is probably normal for games to lose their best and most talented designers once the game has launched and been out a while

Aza.2105:

Allie Murdock.8152:

*

Without a viable counter it allows players to spam endlessly without much thought of being punished for it. I doubt this will ever change either, since GW2 has been out since 2012 and the game has been having the same extreme balance problems since launch.

The solution has always been there, INTRODUCE more counter play mechanics. Dealing with players who abuse evade? There should modest portion of skills that go through evade. Got a player who abuses block? There should be more skills that are unblockable. Got a player who abuses stealth? There should be more anti stealth skills that exist for each class.

Furthermore each classes role should be distinct. At some point Anet released a design philosophy for each class and why they functioned the way they did. With the xpac, anet just tossed that philosophy out the window.

Hey Aza.
I have thought about this a lot, and read many posts by other people. You are right in one way, the meta today shows that certain things in the game are too strong.

However, introducing more counters isn’t perfect either, because of the way GW2 combat works: there are 9 classes, on which you can just combine whatever you like, with some limits (weapon sets, trait lines). Adding counters on classes may not fix the original problem for some other classes, or might be overkill.

Say blocks are overpowered. There are too many people blocking stuff and are basically unkillable, which makes decapping points impossible or extremely hard. You add unblockables to several classes. Now the risk is there that instead of balancing block/unblockable, it tips the scale in the other direction: blocking isn’t worth kitten anymore. And even when that isn’t the case, by ‘countering’ one mechanic when it’s overused, you might cripple playstyles/builds that rely on this mechanic but do not overuse it.

So where to start? They should revisit what they want each class to be and what each class is supposed to be good at and what it’s supposed to be bad at.

Some hints, when you abstract from the current meta, and hypothetically think of a state of the game that is less “overpowered” in all aspects:
→ Thief is in a good spot; it fulfills the role of high mobility & deception class, is great for decaps and as a penalty has no tank ability. It might need some damage nerfs when you tone down other classes.
→ Berserker is in a good spot; it has some reliable sustain, stances still are great, can still dish out enough damage (so realistically the sort of main man who doesn’t have great team utility, but can just survive under focus) – also needs some damage nerfs when you tone down other classes.

Big offenders:
→ Damage: Herald
→ Sustain: Tempest & Druid

Broken mechanics:
→ Celestial Avatar
→ Continuum Split

One of the things I am in conflict with currently is the direction of balance. GuildWars 2 was originally made to be a game where a good player wins and are not countered completely by a class. It is very apparent that balance around this methodology is extremely hard.

Yet it is arguably much easier to balance a game where you just have rock paper scissors class balance.

A third option would be to give every combat element, conditions, power, defenses, and cc a rock paper scissors element instead of the classes. So now every class would have access to unblock-able something or some form of cc or some variation of power/ condition builds. I feel this is the direction they are going in just inconsistently when things get to powerful.

Also one more point I would like to make is, balance can be seen on several levels:

• inside a class: certain trait lines might be stronger than others, certain skill trees more durable or useful
• between different classes: a certain build of 1 class might counter a certain build of 1 other class, but it might be countered by a certain build of 1 other class etc. This is what should be the case. Nothing should rule unwarranted.

Due to the high amount of possibilities in GW2 there is no clear counter from class to class, but rather from build to build. This is as much something that diversifies the combat as something that obstruct balance and in turn creates meta builds that destroy diversity.

Sirendor.1394:

Hey Aza.
I have thought about this a lot, and read many posts by other people. You are right in one way, the meta today shows that certain things in the game are too strong.

However, introducing more counters isn’t perfect either, because of the way GW2 combat works: there are 9 classes, on which you can just combine whatever you like, with some limits (weapon sets, trait lines). Adding counters on classes may not fix the original problem for some other classes, or might be overkill.

Say blocks are overpowered. There are too many people blocking stuff and are basically unkillable, which makes decapping points impossible or extremely hard. You add unblockables to several classes. Now the risk is there that instead of balancing block/unblockable, it tips the scale in the other direction: blocking isn’t worth kitten anymore. And even when that isn’t the case, by ‘countering’ one mechanic when it’s overused, you might cripple playstyles/builds that rely on this mechanic but do not overuse it.

Can’t agree more. The PvP arms race (creating counter abilities instead of nerfing the one or two which are too strong) never ends well.

GW2 dev: People are complaining about taking too much damage what do we do?

GW2 dev #2: Nerf damage of course… but what exactly do we nerf?

GW2 dev #3: Dude people hate nerfs, lets just give everyone traits which allow them to take less damage.

GW2 dev #2: … But wont that just lead to the need to balance more things since we’re not focusing on the problem directly?

GW2 dev #3: Shut your mouth! We’re on a strict time schedule and need to cater to the pleb-I mean masses, now!

I couldn’t agree more with the statement of some of the power specs. No build should be that powerful that it can singlehandedly kill you without you even being able to respond. And by response I mean quite literally your reaction time is slow enough that you’re killed before you can do a single thing. And no, my reaction time isn’t just slow. I’ve encountered this mainly on my alt account playing a non-HoT spec… one particular match, revenant comes with his Unrelenting Assault and I am dead. Lovely.

Asrat.2645:

Loving this.
Digging out smthng like this is like a big punch in the face of all ‘the game used to be great but HoT ruined it/elitespecs ruined it/trait overhaul ruined it’-folks.

Actually the game used to be way better before HoT/eslitespecs/trait overhaul ruined it.
This doesnt mean it was perfect, I’m sorry but if you dont realise it you are just a blind folk

Aza.2105:

Allie Murdock.8152:

*

The solution has always been there, INTRODUCE more counter play mechanics. Dealing with players who abuse evade? There should modest portion of skills that go through evade. Got a player who abuses block? There should be more skills that are unblockable. Got a player who abuses stealth? There should be more anti stealth skills that exist for each class.

And this is exactly what we DONT need, STOP INTRODUCING START REMOVING

But ye, we shouldnt even bother tbh It’s not worth anyway..

The game was boring before HOT but it was more balanced for sure.

Omg this necro thread. That’s more shocking than me being on the forums at this time.

FYI we know all the builds now. And it’s got so much worse since HoT. I really hope the new management can turn things around…

Phaeton.9582:

Omg this necro thread. That’s more shocking than me being on the forums at this time.

FYI we know all the builds now. And it’s got so much worse since HoT. I really hope the new management can turn things around…

No new management on balance team.

This is what I was afraid of happening when they added spectate. Everyone knows all the builds now because spectate allows for easy copy and paste. Players could still share builds but they didn’t post everything. It left room for better improvement to builds and players and slowed the development of the meta. The balance team was able to balance things much better during this time. I remember d/p builds seemed impossible to players who didn’t play thief and understand how they could stealth so much. It is sad that creativity is no longer rewarded. The creative people crate ideal builds that are copied by others thus creating a meta of builds.

IDK about this balance but I think GW2 PVP should balance like a fighting game more than a MOBA. Current system is not work because its hard to read what happen in the game and why it happen.

For example you are condi rangers VS condi necro. you melee necro to get pressure on him and give him some bleed stack but the odd is stack on codi necro cause once the necro got 3 conditions he got a free condi transfer transfer by passively spam 1

Which lead to another problem information readability.Ranger have to keep his eye on both his effect stacks which move around . Becasue they are in the same row as his boon and other buff bars.At the same time looking at necro bars which is acorss the screen.

Another problem is how defensive buff stack.You got boons , Trait , Skill that provide passives. not everyone will catch on those.

PVP could use an overhual that more simplify the fighting process.

It’s saddening how far into this thread I got until I noticed it was a 2-year necro. So much of it rings true today.

The bit about spirit weapons and guardians should perhaps have tipped me off.

I think the current state of the game gets too much hate.
I have to agree without a doubt that pvp, wvw, and pve would all be better if the skill/profession balance was independent from each game type.

This is something that players have been asking for for years and it should be clear to everyone that anet doesn’t have the resources to do this, furthermore it probably isn’t worth their time. Right now the entire staff is full fledge into building more living world because this is where they get the largest player base out, this is where they get the most gem store sales aka revenue. If it isn’t profitable for them to keep developing the new legendary weapons (which were promised to us) do you really think it would be profitable for them to rework the balance system for the entire game? Maybe. But how would you prove that it would be if you were a systems designer that had to submit a proposal to their boss. The guy who come in saying we should build more living world! Is going to get approval every time.

The pvp and balance teams are really just damage control because thats all they have the power to do, and it is very apparent to me that these people work very hard.

All that being said, I think we need to chill. I have always loved gw2 because of the imbalance, I don’t understand why everyone hates on it so much. What other game is as dynamic as guild wars 2? That gives you build options in combination with a dodge/evade system on par with the monster hunter series while also provided the greatest artistic graphics in any mmo ever made.

There have been so many times where I’ve gotten ridiculously frustrated with this game and tried to play something else, but in the end it just doesn’t have the same overall feel and I always come back to gw2.

The imbalance is epic, there have been so many times over the past 2 years where I’ve been experimenting with builds and come up with some cheese that just annihilates everyone (which I have found quite nicely in the current meta). What other game lets you feel like such a god? We are all on the same playing field, we can all choose any class we want in pvp, and are free to experiment with whatever combination of stats and skills we want. The meta is never the only viable set of builds. The skill in this game comes from your ability to theory craft and execute.

I think we all need to embrace pvp and look at why we are still playing this game after so many years!
Bring on season 3.

morrolan.9608:

Phaeton.9582:

Omg this necro thread. That’s more shocking than me being on the forums at this time.

FYI we know all the builds now. And it’s got so much worse since HoT. I really hope the new management can turn things around…

No new management on balance team.

This isn’t about balance. It’s about direction, structure, and the people they trial pvp gameplay with before putting it live.

https://m.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/?utm_source=mweb_redirect

I dunno.. that seems to be substantial change; he even mentions drawing on aspects gw1

It could be too optimistic – but it’s not unfounded.