Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

Why not experience everything that you paid for?

This is a good time to actually think about how the game is planned.
Legendary weapons require the player to do everything which the game considers to be part of the experience.

You have to:
-Wvw for 500 badges of horror
-Do some dungeons a bunch of times
-Craft a bunch of stuff
-Be present during a dragon event
-Help all the residents of Tyria by vanquishing foes from every corner of the map
-Farm

You do not have to:
-play spvp

Therefore we can conclude that spvp is not considered part of the gw2 experience.

mbh.8301:

jportell.2197:

Why not experience everything that you paid for?

This is a good time to actually think about how the game is planned.
Legendary weapons require the player to do everything which the game considers to be part of the experience.

You have to:
-Wvw for 500 badges of horror
-Do some dungeons a bunch of times
-Craft a bunch of stuff
-Be present during a dragon event
-Help all the residents of Tyria by vanquishing foes from every corner of the map
-Farm

You do not have to:
-play spvp

Therefore we can conclude that spvp is not considered part of the gw2 experience.

And if ANet ever states that there will be a permanent split between skills balanced for PvP and PvE that can become more true… But right now they have said they don’t want too. So any balance changes made to satisfy the PvP population (smallest portion of the game) will affect the larger population more so and most of them will have no clue why (forum population is even smaller.) This is why changes come more slowly than the PvP population would like. And honestly if the entire “hardcore” PvP group just up and disappeared and gave up… The impact it would have on the entire game population would be miniscule and the impact on ANets wallet would be even smaller (all gemstore items etc etc. are more PvE centric).

Gotta love it when people get upset at Davinci, he’s a troll. Leave him alone.

Instead of complaining how about some solution based threads?

Follidus.8027:

Davinci.8027:

Follidus.8027:

What davenchi is trying to say is most hot join players aren’t as good as him. So his opinion is the only one that matters when it comes to balance. For example, a lot of hot join players complain about thieves because a lot of hot join players don’t understand how to deal with thieves. They then continue to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how thieves need to be nerfed.

However, since davenchi is way better than everyone else, whatever he loses to in tournaments is clearly overpowered. For example, he runs into a trap ranger and dies in 30 seconds because davenchi doesn’t understand how to deal with trap rangers. He then continues to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how rangers need to be nerfed.

lol, anyone see any similarities???

Aren’t you one of those players that quit because you got counter comped by Hiba’s condi-nade engi, and then proceeded to try and copy that same build (while calling it OP) and fail?
PZ has consistently run cheesy comps and has only ever been successful running cheesy comps, and I am not the only person who knows this. I’m not the one who gets wiped by Vyndetta in under 30 seconds, that’s you Folly.
PZ was running double elementalist, double ranger, and while it is disputed how strong trap rangers are, it goes without saying that during the time they were running the comp, elementalists were EXTREMELY overpowered (especially pre-Mist on Down nerf). Everyone wanted PZ off the map because they were cheesing up the meta and making the game unenjoyable for 80% of players.

In regards to the other comments, as Defektive said, my first post was not well put, but the point I am trying to get at is this:

If you do not have enough experience/knowledge about the intricacies of each class and how they are played both individually and in a team setting, then your opinion may not be as valued as someone who does have this experience/knowledge.
Mesmers and thieves can excel in hotjoins, because the calibre of play there is lower than it is in tPvP. Mesmers and thieves are 2 of the most under-valued classes in tPvP, because players know better how to deal with them. They are 2 classes that, at first, seem to be extremely OP, but, when understood, become exceedingly easy to counter.
I hope this clears things up.

Davenchi, best at making things up NA.

He clearly sounds but hurt.

Folly what have you guys been doing to him?

Davinci.8027:

One final thing:

Balance should not be catered to the casual, low-tier players. It is that simple. Hotjoin is where you go to slaughter and get slaughtered.
If this were the case, then Blizzard would be balancing WoW PvP based off of random battlegrounds and not 3v3 Arenas….

You’ll note that WoW arenas lost an enormous amount of players when they decided to stop balancing and rewarding for 2v2, because the closer you get to 1v1 balance, the more players will be interested. There’s a reason duels are so popular, and people dueling understand the game better than any other type of player.

shaolin.9716:

Davinci.8027:

One final thing:

Balance should not be catered to the casual, low-tier players. It is that simple. Hotjoin is where you go to slaughter and get slaughtered.
If this were the case, then Blizzard would be balancing WoW PvP based off of random battlegrounds and not 3v3 Arenas….

You’ll note that WoW arenas lost an enormous amount of players when they decided to stop balancing and rewarding for 2v2, because the closer you get to 1v1 balance, the more players will be interested. There’s a reason duels are so popular, and people dueling understand the game better than any other type of player.

WoW didn’t start declining after they stopped balancing for 2v2s. It was actually increasing in popularity at that point and didn’t start declining till a couple of years later (early cataclysm/late WOTLK)…
There were a ton of good duelers who would duel outside of Org/Stormwind, but were never any good in arenas. Duels are bound to be imbalanced, because classes vary too greatly for there to be perfect balance on a 1v1 level.
“People dueling understand the game better than any other type of player.” I just don’t know where to begin with this….
It’s just so wrong on so many levels…

Braxxus.2904:

The OP’s attitude and post/ideology is exactly what kills pvp populations.
The trickle down theory does not work.
You need to serve the middle class, not the 1%.

wrong. no game does the balancing like that.

Krafty.9758:

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

Are you suggesting people who only play tpvp can comment on balance?

All tpvp comes down to is “who can execute their theorycrafted plan better”. It doesn’t take tpvp practice to work this out.

It does not take a genius to work out the classes, moves etc and then to come up with an optimal setup of classes and how the moves will be integrated with one another.

Like a lot of people, i too have had many years of experience with actual competitive games (games a lot more competitive than the current setup GW2 has).

The day I (and many others) decide to do tpvp will be the day that Anet decides to follow up on its promises and provide the gaming community with an actual reason to play (given the obscene hype pre release).

As a competitive gamer i do not give a stuff about rewards/incentives to play. I play to win, simple as that. That feeling of competition is what drives true competitors.

So no…. I’ll continue to offer my opinion on balance where necessary and I’ll simply tear apart any logic you decide to throw at me.

Come at me bro

Ps, before you trolls go nuts, consider this. No I’m not a madbro, i just find it amusing how people try to justify just who should and shouldn’t comment on balance.

Bravo. I play tpvp and hotjoin, while they are very different, they also inevitably share a lot of the same issues, especially when it comes to class balance and especially in 1v1s, so if someone has formed their opinions from hotjoin experience this certainly does not make them invalid.

Allure of pvp:
1. no accessories
2. stat caps
3. changed skills (Save Yourselves! – duration. I only pvp’d as guard, check other skills)
4. changed Runes (Monk, Water – Boon duration)
5. ranking takes forever (10hrs, still rabbit rank) & low rank rewards look like crap.
6. Immobilize = require condition removal (cuz immob>crip isnt enough kiting)
7. The second you leave Heart of Mist, there’s nothing to show, maybe a greyed-out title.
8. Had a guild mate come to spvp to duel.. his complaint was “I cant remake my wvw toon the same way & I look dumb.” – No allure for PvE/WvW players.
9. Gap closers/escapes tied to weapons – Play the way you like? I think not
10. If a class is globalling other players, there is a design flaw – it’s obvious.
11. There is no dueling/way to test your skills so why not join hotjoins for kills, esp. ranking takes forever to get a decent looking skin, so why bother boring yourself running around capping objectives & missing on fun?
12. Elitism in broken area of play… bravo!
13. Glory Booster = skill? rank up!

Should I continue?

Don’t feed the trolls!

Razor.6392:

Braxxus.2904:

The OP’s attitude and post/ideology is exactly what kills pvp populations.
The trickle down theory does not work.
You need to serve the middle class, not the 1%.

wrong. no game does the balancing like that.

You’re right and look at all the highly successful PvP MMO’s out there with thriving communities….

owait

Braxxus.2904:

Razor.6392:

Braxxus.2904:

The OP’s attitude and post/ideology is exactly what kills pvp populations.
The trickle down theory does not work.
You need to serve the middle class, not the 1%.

wrong. no game does the balancing like that.

You’re right and look at all the highly successful PvP MMO’s out there with thriving communities….

owait

I’m pretty sure WoW still has millions of people who play the PvP… and it isn’t at its prime.

mbh.8301:

5 people cap one point and then lose the game because they’re too used to playing a mario cart version of the game in hot join.

Mario Kart takes way more skill than hotjoin. It might take more skill than tournaments.

Davinci.8027:

Braxxus.2904:

Razor.6392:

Braxxus.2904:

The OP’s attitude and post/ideology is exactly what kills pvp populations.
The trickle down theory does not work.
You need to serve the middle class, not the 1%.

wrong. no game does the balancing like that.

You’re right and look at all the highly successful PvP MMO’s out there with thriving communities….

owait

I’m pretty sure WoW still has millions of people who play the PvP… and it isn’t at its prime.

In my opinion, when you start to mention WoW as a point of reference in any GW2 thread, massive credibility is lost.

Subcription based that has worked long-term? No other game compares. Blizzard is a juggernaut, they have resources that no other MMO game even comes close to at 2nd place, and they had the benefit of forging their path in the marketplace before widespread MMOs were even a thing.

If you use WoW as comparison, then ALL other MMOs should just give up and shut down because it will never stack up.

Even with that, assuming ‘millions’ in PvP is a bit of a stretch (read: active PvPers) without any data to back it up, WoW is fantastic but it’s not like people are lining up JUST to play PvP, whereas GW2 had a thriving following of people ready to play for the PvP alone, and they are being slowly and steadily pushed away from the game.

Meow meow meow meow MEOW

MEOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Davinci.8027:

Meow meow meow meow MEOW

MEOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Go home, Davinci, you’re drunk.

Lopez.7369:

mbh.8301:

5 people cap one point and then lose the game because they’re too used to playing a mario cart version of the game in hot join.

Mario Kart takes way more skill than hotjoin. It might take more skill than tournaments.

LMAO

I have to say though that this thread shouldn’t have gotten that much of a reaction. There are always threads like this being created, claiming that one set of people are superior to others.

I wish that we’d simply have a game mode that would truly display the different professions builds in a manner that can make balancing better and more transparent.

Hotjoin and tPVP doesn’t do that imo, especially when taking into consideration that you’re also balancing for pve and wvw too.

Expansive.3716:

Lopez.7369:

mbh.8301:

5 people cap one point and then lose the game because they’re too used to playing a mario cart version of the game in hot join.

Mario Kart takes way more skill than hotjoin. It might take more skill than tournaments.

LMAO

I have to say though that this thread shouldn’t have gotten that much of a reaction. There are always threads like this being created, claiming that one set of people are superior to others.

I wish that we’d simply have a game mode that would truly display the different professions builds in a manner that can make balancing better and more transparent.

Hotjoin and tPVP doesn’t do that imo, especially when taking into consideration that you’re also balancing for pve and wvw too.

Again, it’s not about one set of people being superior to another. It’s about what the game’s Pv kitten upposed to be designed around.

MEOW MEOWWWWWWWWWWW meowmeowmeowmeow kitten

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

forrae.6708:

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

Trickle down economics has never worked, does not work, and will not ever work.
It’s a myth, no it’s just a blatant lie, that some people have been suckered into believing.
In the end all you’ll be left with is that 1% player base as the other 99% say kitten this and leave. Then the 1% can complain about how there’s no population.

If you wish to see how a game with very low amounts of low/mid-tier players, and virtually no new pvp entrants, looks like, do refer to GW (though GW2 is almost there anyway, so heh).

Obviously everyone have the right to voice their opinion, and are more than entitled to form one too, the only difference is that some opinions are more precise and well-argumented than others, and the devs should possess the mental capacity to distinguish between the two, so no need to start another forum war regarding that. If they don’t, the game’s in for a rough time (cough cough).

Forced release aside, I dare say that by sticking to a single type of pvp arena (conquest), Anet tried their best to avoid having to balance for multiple different arenas because of the many specific needs and strategies, which cannot be covered by a generic one-size-fits-all approach, and yet ended up in a situation not that different from the GW scenario (5 different pvp arenas, 2 pvp/pve arenas, whilst the balance was normally based off gvg, leaving other arenas with degenerated metas over very long spans of time).

Honestly, both sides are equally deserving of attention, because they’re both interdependant in order for things to work properly. Balance needs to be ‘diverted’ and split up between different pvp modes (and split up from pve, for crying out laud), as some of Anet had already realized in the past, but for that to happen, (far) more resources are called for. Having said that, even this approach has downsides, for it creates additional barriers, but I think it’s the lesser of evils.

Oh and this:

If all you play is tpvp….

then you’ve had your sorry gullible meow handed to you by Anet’s marketing department.
Ha.

I have another sugestion
If you dont play hotjoin:
“Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.”

Sanis.1096:

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

Gw 2 is game for casuals = casuals play HJ = anet listens to casuals

Why is everyone talking about this is for casual? They also said this game is about SKILL! And you can be casual and still be good! (like in DotA or LoL)
Casual friendly and NOOB friendly game isn’t same.

silentnight warrior.2714:

I have another sugestion
If you dont play hotjoin:
“Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.”

lol. I like this suggestion. And I do a mix of both. :P

Davinci too stronk guys.

There are arguments to be had on both sides here. Top players being able to adapt and something being out of balance are two different things.
Example, you can say at top levels that thief is something people have adapted too.
However, it can still be unbalanced, but people just figured out how to play around it.

I am not saying any particular thing is unbalanced, but it may be the case, and hot join is the easiest place for it to be exposed because all you do is kill there.

There is a difference between blatantly OP and slightly OP, and I think tournies reveal the blatantly OP and hot joins reveal the slightly OP.

Braxxus.2904:

forrae.6708:

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

Trickle down economics has never worked, does not work, and will not ever work.
It’s a myth, no it’s just a blatant lie, that some people have been suckered into believing.
In the end all you’ll be left with is that 1% player base as the other 99% say kitten this and leave. Then the 1% can complain about how there’s no population.

Video games are not real world economics, and it works for SC2.

Larynx.2453:

Braxxus.2904:

forrae.6708:

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

Trickle down economics has never worked, does not work, and will not ever work.
It’s a myth, no it’s just a blatant lie, that some people have been suckered into believing.
In the end all you’ll be left with is that 1% player base as the other 99% say kitten this and leave. Then the 1% can complain about how there’s no population.

Video games are not real world economics, and it works for SC2.

Same principles apply.
The game needs to support a pyramid scaling to maintain a healthy population.
Without a healthy middle class there is no population for the top 1% to stand upon, game fails.

You don’t balance for the bottom 1% either, and that’s something the elitists need to remember. No one is calling for the game to be balanced around the enjoyment of the most terrible of terribads (and chances are the elitists aren’t even anywhere near as good as they think they are anyways). You do want to balance around the enjoyment of the ‘average’ player. The guy that isn’t terrible, but isn’t super 1337 ‘pro’ gamer god of hyrule either. The average guy realizes that HB isn’t OP because it’s super telegraphed, rendered obsolete by a dodge or stunbreak and that warriors are pretty much the bottom of the food chain because of how terribly they’re designed (for example), even if he’s not on the tip top pvp team of ungodly godhood.

If you have an ability to press x and 1-shot a guy, but it can be countered by the opponent pressing yvp10F3+F4+space and spinning his camera 360 degrees which then puts the x-presser into a state of self-cc the top 1% will probably macro it or be good enough to do so, however this does not mean the ability is not stupid and OP overall causing a decline in the enjoyment factor of the majority of players.

Braxxus.2904:

Larynx.2453:

Braxxus.2904:

forrae.6708:

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

Trickle down economics has never worked, does not work, and will not ever work.
It’s a myth, no it’s just a blatant lie, that some people have been suckered into believing.
In the end all you’ll be left with is that 1% player base as the other 99% say kitten this and leave. Then the 1% can complain about how there’s no population.

Video games are not real world economics, and it works for SC2.

Same principles apply.
The game needs to support a pyramid scaling to maintain a healthy population.
Without a healthy middle class there is no population for the top 1% to stand upon, game fails.

You don’t balance for the bottom 1% either, and that’s something the elitists need to remember. No one is calling for the game to be balanced around the enjoyment of the most terrible of terribads (and chances are the elitists aren’t even anywhere near as good as they think they are anyways). You do want to balance around the enjoyment of the ‘average’ player. The guy that isn’t terrible, but isn’t super 1337 ‘pro’ gamer god of hyrule either. The average guy realizes that HB isn’t OP because it’s super telegraphed, rendered obsolete by a dodge or stunbreak and that warriors are pretty much the bottom of the food chain because of how terribly they’re designed (for example), even if he’s not on the tip top pvp team of ungodly godhood.

If you have an ability to press x and 1-shot a guy, but it can be countered by the opponent pressing yvp10F3+F4+space and spinning his camera 360 degrees which then puts the x-presser into a state of self-cc the top 1% will probably macro it or be good enough to do so, however this does not mean the ability is not stupid and OP overall causing a decline in the enjoyment factor of the majority of players.

but you have to understand the point of this thread.

for example i would not ask many of you how to run any of the companies i have or have had because you clearly wouldnt know how they work and your advice clearly would only make my companies worse. so that being said i would ask ppl with experience and ppl that have succeeded for advice (which i did).

most of you guys actually dont know how this game works infact most of you dont even play this game like it is conquest. you go from 1 point to the next in a group and then when a warrior comes in and kills u all you say hes op?

that is all davinchi is trying to say. learn how to play the game before you have an input on the game.

davinchi yes was a little mean about it and if it was me i would have worded it a little different so here i go

post title : if all you play is hotjoin…..

post: then you probably dont understand the game type the devs made so can you please keep your unacknowledged comments off the forums because they might take them litteral. but if you want hotjoin as a competitive scene please feel free to make a thread asking for it but make sure to ask for seperate nerfs and buffs for that game mode alone because the real game and hotjoin nowere near reflect eachother. and if you ever get hotjoin competitve we promise never to come to your forums and pretend to know what needs buffs and nerfs because we will have no idea.

Braxxus.2904:

forrae.6708:

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

Trickle down economics has never worked, does not work, and will not ever work.
It’s a myth, no it’s just a blatant lie, that some people have been suckered into believing.
In the end all you’ll be left with is that 1% player base as the other 99% say kitten this and leave. Then the 1% can complain about how there’s no population.

this is a video game. not a real world economy.

if paper > rock > scissors > paper for the 1%‘ers, then paper > rock > scissors > paper for the 99%’ers too.

if the 1%‘ers say, hey, something isn’t right, all of a sudden rock > paper, then the devs need to listen.

if the 99%‘ers say “amg rawk broked my papur!!” the devs do not need to listen, ESPECIALLY when the 1%’ers are like “wut?”

The amount of sarcasm in this thread is exceeding expectations.
Nerds can only express themselves via sarcasm because deep down they don’t feel as though their opinions really have any validation.
MISSTALK, WRONG CHAT

Davinci.8027:

Sand Beagle.9867:

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

More people hotjoin than play tournaments. Tournys are in the minority.

Face it, GW2 “structured” pvp is meant to be hotjoin. This game cant support competitive play.

WvW on the other hand is quite well done. It has its problems, but at least each class is moderately playable, and the glaring problems with game mechanics and poor design choices arent as significant.

Just because more people play hotjoins does not mean it’s where the PvP is headed or where balance is supposed to be based around. The devs have repeatedly said that tPvP is where they want this game heading. They have made the wrong choices when it comes to features/core systems and this has led to a decline in the tPvP population.

If I can guess right, you probably under the illusion that mesmers and thieves are ‘RIDICULOUSLY" op and need a hard nerf. This is the point I was originally getting at.
If all you play is hotjoin, you do not understand the mechanics/gameplay enough to make a suitable and valuable judgement on what is OP or UP. You are entitled to your opinion, and it’s there, that’s fine. But don’t expect the devs to take your opinion into account when they are balancing.

Well, the general consensus ‘round here is that the devs dont take anyone’s opinion into account when they are balancing, and that is why the pvp in this game is so broken. Lets face it, conquest is kitten, tournaments are kitten, hotjoins are kitten. With only one terribad scrub-friendly game mode (conquest) you cant really have a competitive scene. The only thing left that is moderately fun is WvW.

Also, downed state in its current form is full kitten and rewards bad players while punishing good players.

Maybe the current “good players” shouldnt even be making these decisions, since GW2 probably has one of the lowest competitive populations in a pvp game. I think the skill pond has become irreparably small, and it’s going to take a very long time to bring back skilled players who have left or avoided this game.

GW2 is definitely suffering from a brain drain. There is no incentive to be good or get better.

Tell “hot join players” they don’t have an opinion because they die to thieves and mesmers without a clue of how to beat it.

Tell everyone that X is overpowered because you die to X without a clue of how to beat it after a week.

Forget about grudges, this thread is asinine, asi-ten, asi-eleven, asi-twelve.

To me 5vs5 hotjoin is not that much different to solo queue tourney. Still see people group capping and not really knowing what they are doing when I solo queue.

But I understand what Davinci is saying, it is kind of annoying reading posts demanding nerfs or saying the game sux because thief is so OP etc from players with 10 hours spvp experience and/or who haven’t seen the game from various perspectives (premade/ casual groups/ solo queue / 8vs8 / 5vs5 hotjoin) or played various classes in spvp.

One problem is that the game is skill based, so your uber gear can’t carry you, a good healer can’t carry you (no healers); you just have to get good (and run in a premade if you want to be good at winning tourneys). That takes more than 10hrs and rabbit rank.

Feedback from players that still don’t know most of the intricacies of the game is not appropriate for basing class balance on-although it is important to know what new players feel like.

I say as a rough guideline give it 100hrs spvp and playing across all spvp variants before demanding nerfs/buffs. Come to the forums and ask for help when getting beaten before that.

“Davinci.8027
silentnight warrior.2714:
I have another sugestion
If you dont play hotjoin:
“Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.”

Go meow yourself with a kitten."

So… I did the same as you and you didn’t like it… So if you dont listen to others what gives you the right to tell people what to do or not to do?
Nice and construtive answer by the way. I think people need to answer to this post like you did.

Did I mention the Soju in Korea is OP?

DevilsGlare.7658:

Did I mention the Soju in Korea is OP?

lol… Knock people off the rocker.

Yasha.5963:

To me 5vs5 hotjoin is not that much different to solo queue tourney. Still see people group capping and not really knowing what they are doing when I solo queue.

But I understand what Davinci is saying, it is kind of annoying reading posts demanding nerfs or saying the game sux because thief is so OP etc from players with 10 hours spvp experience and/or who haven’t seen the game from various perspectives (premade/ casual groups/ solo queue / 8vs8 / 5vs5 hotjoin) or played various classes in spvp.

One problem is that the game is skill based, so your uber gear can’t carry you, a good healer can’t carry you (no healers); you just have to get good (and run in a premade if you want to be good at winning tourneys). That takes more than 10hrs and rabbit rank.

Feedback from players that still don’t know most of the intricacies of the game is not appropriate for basing class balance on-although it is important to know what new players feel like.

I say as a rough guideline give it 100hrs spvp and playing across all spvp variants before demanding nerfs/buffs. Come to the forums and ask for help when getting beaten before that.

I think this post does a very nice job of summing things up, and all without trying to offend players who are still learning. Thumbs up!

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

but you have to understand the point of this thread.

This thread doesn’t have a point.

To take the oft-quoted example of thieves/mesmers, anyone with an IQ in triple digits can distinguish most of the time when someone complains about thieves/mesmers whether they refering to hot join or tPvP (many times people even specify which).

So unless you think the devs are as braindead as some of these self-proclaimed “pro” players, it isn’t really a problem, and if you think the devs are in the same IQ bracket then the game is screwed anyway.

Furthermore in regard to the oft-quoted example of thieves, I see ‘skill’ being given as the answer, skill has nothing (or very little) to do with it, thieves are fine in tPvP, becasue they are much, much easier to deal with in that format, because :

1 – Most of the time people will only face and have to keep track of one thief, where as in hotjoin is not uncommon to be faced with three, best of luck keeping track there.

2 – If people are on a team (thus have VOIP) it is easier still to keep track, inform peolpe they’ve just used their burst, warn each other that Mr thief is nearby, etc.

3 – In hotjoin people are effectively in a teamfight far more often (8v8 + zerging), which is where a class like thief is strongest, not only are they in teamfights, but teamfights with more people in, whcih resutls in them blowing their cooldowns / dodges faster, leaving them open to a class like thief, again far more difficult than in tPvP, with fewer and smaller teamfights.

So in essence when people complain about thieves/mesmers in 8v8 hot join they are correct in regard to that game mode, now should the game be ultimately balanced on that no, but then that doesn’t mean it should be left untreated either, nor that people should have no right to complain about it.

Nor should the devs ignore it, if the self-proclaimed “pros” want their game to be successful, then it requires a playerbase, if peoples first taste of sPvP is hotjoin, guess what many will simply leave and never get round to trying tPvP, so it is in everyone’s interest that hotjoin is not the dire PvP experience it is (in case you haven’t noticed it is not just the number of tPvP players that have decreased, but the number of active hotjoin servers is a fraction of what it was)

That doesn’t mean they need to balance on it, but they could reduce the problem by doing things like making the win bonus very large, so people actually play the objectives and splits up the zerging, which will make thieves/mesmers less of a problem.

In regard to the OPs “logic”, since when was tPvP a qualification (or a guarantee of objectivity), last tPvP I did three of the five people just went straight to the near point and all three stood there until it capped…

Lastly if the OP looks at some of those who have agreed with him in this thread then takes a look at the ‘tier list’ thread he will see some of them, despite their tPvP experience have placed Mesmer at 1 or 2, which I gather from the OPs posts in this thread, is apparently not only the wrong opinion, but that of a hotjoin player.

Sylosi, mad props – a good post +1. People seem to forget about other players.. “well if I can beat this class easily then everyone should be able to.” I don’t think thief/mesmer is OP personally, but I am trying to see from the PoV of the other players. Not everyone thinks tournaments are “fun” so there has to be an avenue of fun for those who want a break from PvE/WvW and who aren’t ready/interested in tournaments. When a lot of people think PvP.. they don’t think of player vs node control. They’re thinking of beating another player thus why many hotjoins aren’t about objectives but rather on kills, which is why many people play mesmer/thief to go for kills not objectives. Why play a bunker guardian when you can play a GC thief and get more kills – it’s all about fun. This is the rift between hotjoins & tournaments – you have to figure out what ppl are interested in & this is upto the developers to balance, not the players. Players are for collecting data & feedback but not ultimately determining the game. It just feels like such a bust cuz I LOVED gw1 pvp & here we are reinventing the wheel instead of developing on it & we can’t even drive the car without problems… Why is every sequel to a game trying to reinvent things from the ground up? (gw2, d3, final fantasy, ragnarok online, etc.)

forrae.6708:

balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.

simple.

This is not necessarily true as mere hotjoiners cannot fathom the order in which the top tier players press their buttons. Plus they have only 50% the finger length of tPvP players due to poor genetics and the effects of Glory-Abuse.

Seriously though… GW2 is somewhere in between WoW and games that have a high skill cap… in and of itself it’s fun, but it’s not difficult at any level including tournaments.

Follidus.8027:

Tell “hot join players” they don’t have an opinion because they die to thieves and mesmers without a clue of how to beat it.

Tell everyone that X is overpowered because you die to X without a clue of how to beat it after a week.

Forget about grudges, this thread is asinine, asi-ten, asi-eleven, asi-twelve.

Stop talking out of your kitten, please.
It’s a well known fact that Elementalists and Rangers are on the top of the food chain, and PZ ran 2 x each of those classes.
The only time PZ has ever run a balanced comp was when they were getting destroyed by pugs. There was about a week where they were doing goodd with a balanced comp, until they lost to a certain team 3 times in a row and went on “Hiatus” again because Java can’t stand losing.

To put it bluntly, it wasn’t that no one knew how to deal with Elementalists and Rangers. It was generally agreed between the very knowledgeable and experienced players that Elementalists were not a bit, but kitteningly OP, and Rangers were just below them.
It took a new brand of class/spec to wipe you from the map, because PZ didn’t know how to deal with something completely different ( condi-nade engis ), and instead of trying to adapt, you quit. Nuff said.

Funny how so many self proclaimed ‘pros’ go on and on about eles and rangers being “kittengly OP” when the truth is that only terribly bad players could think so. Perhaps you baddies should quit posting about balance when you don’t understand the game enough to do simple things like force water attunement and follow up with a spike after the ele swaps out of water. Get good.

Braxxus.2904:

you don’t understand the game enough to do simple things like force water attunement and follow up with a spike after the ele swaps out of water. Get good.

You’re probably going to want earth attunement to be on recharge as well.

Inflammatory thread is inflammatory. While I do agree that passing judgement on game balance without a certain experience level is premature, the perceptions of players new and old is still relevant and shouldn’t be SILENCED as is suggested. Like a previous poster said, what’s the harm in it? Are you really worried that the DEV’s will make the wrong move based on the feedback of less experienced players? Or does reading their words truly burn your eyes to the point that you’re begging them to stop posting?

What’s it to you?

Truth be told, Davinci cares more about his “pride” than this post. He’s ready to insult a player for having a different opinion, but not ready to create a peaceful solution.

My opinion is Devs should have there own testing for class balance. We shouldn’t not have to tell them what is OP. I’d like problems to be fixed before we encounter them, just my 2cents.

mbh.8301:

Braxxus.2904:

you don’t understand the game enough to do simple things like force water attunement and follow up with a spike after the ele swaps out of water. Get good.

You’re probably going to want earth attunement to be on recharge as well.

Just try to blow his kitten out just after he goes into air….sometimes…just sometimes it works if the ele is bad…once you hear him “I call the wtf storms and whatever..” burst him asap

Braxxus.2904:

Funny how so many self proclaimed ‘pros’ go on and on about eles and rangers being “kittengly OP” when the truth is that only terribly bad players could think so. Perhaps you baddies should quit posting about balance when you don’t understand the game enough to do simple things like force water attunement and follow up with a spike after the ele swaps out of water. Get good.

You need to be exceptionally bad to lose to an ele consistently, there is no profession in this game with more obvious animation and incredible CD on their skills, it’s literally impossible for any decent player to be hit consistently by an ele, the animations allow you loads of time to simply walk away..not even dodging.

The baddies are whining no because they can’t kill an ele, but because an ele is able to survive their combo executed in a mechanical way, while they’ve been able to avoid 80% of the ele dmg because of ridicolously high casting times and far too obvious animations.

As explained in @Sata thread, nobody in this game got the right to call himself “pro” player, there is no ladder…no visible matchmaking, basically the “top” players in this game are nothing more than flamboyant egomaniacs with nothing as proof of their “superior” skill.

In a game with ladder and matchmaking, the top players are those who are consistently able to beat other top players, to reach top level you need to have a given win/loss ratio achieved playing against people of equal ratio.

But in this game people consider themself “top” players for having farmed QP pts against randoms team of any rank and no real matchmaking…this is truly an insult to the words top player….OP and all his supporters..pls stop with this non sense..you’re an insult for real top player, do you really think you can be compared to the kind of player who could be found at GvG Top 50 in GW1?…

Who cares about whether or not he has pride or not?

If you perform an analysis of development strategies across competitive games and determine which type of balancing technique was more successful at retaining and growing a playerbase, Davinci’s answer is undisputably correct. Not all games that balance with the competitive scene in mind become successes, but the majority of successes balance with the competitive scene in mind. Why is that?

Well, its pretty simple:

Balance is less important when there is a larger field of viable options. When you are a mediocre player, you can do things which aren’t viable competitively and come out as a winner. Because the relative ‘field’ of strategies which can win over inferior opponents is larger, accordingly there are less metagame related bottlenecks.

Additionally, the object of a non-competitive gamer is not to improve, and therefore win. Its generally to enjoy the process of playing. However, this type of engagement with the game leads players to stop playing once the fun value of novelty wears off. Competitive players are not motivated by the fun of novelty. They are motivated by the fun of mastery. Mastery, by contrast, allows for communities to have longstanding pillars of knowledge, as players who stay for mastery tend to play more, and play with the objective of understanding the game, rather than doing stupid kitten which is fun.

It may be annoying that certain things exist within your game at lower levels, but without the longevity provided by competitive players, you rarely get decent stream viewership, tournament prize pools, community produced content, etc. The transition of a player between the casual and competitive phase isn’t done based upon whether or not a game was ‘fun’, either. It is done based on whether or not a game is ‘competition worthy’. The players who still PvE intensely, if you look at the cross-section of desires and complaints that they have, all show signs of playing competitively for decorative features. Players getting angry that they couldn’t get their unbreakable bell, or that they wasted a month of laurels, or that they didn’t have full access to the guild-mission content, etc.

If those players played for non-competitive fun, they wouldn’t mind that pre-buff dragon chests dropped kitten. They would be thinking “wow, dragon fights look kittening cool”. They don’t.

So, since ‘competitive’ players have additional motivation to stay with your game, YOU CATER TO THEM. Their friends who have only a casual attachment to the game end up joining because they like the network effects related to socialization and the novelty of the game, etc.

GW2’s PvE has been developed with competition in mind. Look at the amount of unbreakables, the scaling and gating on fractals, the unlocking process for guild missions, etc. GW2’s Pvp has been developed without competition in mind. You can see which segment of the playerbase has vanished, and it should be entirely predictable based upon the case-studies of previous games why that is.

Davinci.8027:

Follidus.8027:

Tell “hot join players” they don’t have an opinion because they die to thieves and mesmers without a clue of how to beat it.

Tell everyone that X is overpowered because you die to X without a clue of how to beat it after a week.

Forget about grudges, this thread is asinine, asi-ten, asi-eleven, asi-twelve.

Stop talking out of your kitten, please.
It’s a well known fact that Elementalists and Rangers are on the top of the food chain, and PZ ran 2 x each of those classes.
The only time PZ has ever run a balanced comp was when they were getting destroyed by pugs. There was about a week where they were doing goodd with a balanced comp, until they lost to a certain team 3 times in a row and went on “Hiatus” again because Java can’t stand losing.

To put it bluntly, it wasn’t that no one knew how to deal with Elementalists and Rangers. It was generally agreed between the very knowledgeable and experienced players that Elementalists were not a bit, but kitteningly OP, and Rangers were just below them.
It took a new brand of class/spec to wipe you from the map, because PZ didn’t know how to deal with something completely different ( condi-nade engis ), and instead of trying to adapt, you quit. Nuff said.

That mindset is only going to hold you back. But it’s pretty clear I can’t convince you otherwise. You sound like a “hot join player” that’s complaining about thieves, who talks to his other “hot join friends” about how thieves are overpowered. Just saying.

But yes, like I told hiba before I joined pz, an aoe team fight comp would be really good against double ele/double ranger/guardian. It worked out pretty well.

What you should have also tried:
- projectile reflection (you ran 2 guardians and 1 ele, yet brought 0 swirling winds, and 0 walls of reflection. Then you talked about how your composition was “balanced.”
- Try changing your builds to help deal with the 1v1 matchup against trap rangers. (morf did!)
- Coordinating spikes into CC. The rangers ran 0 stun breaks, and the eles only had mist form (I think sko was using blink for a while though too).
- If you wanted to play the sustained game, try massive amounts of boon removal and poison. Since double ele is “overpowered” due to the stacking of boons and healing, this directly counters that.

These are just some of the things you could have done, or focused on doing. I think you said you played WoW, well think about the matchup of rmp vs melee cleave in wotlk. Do you really think anyone right now is bringing the same level of team coordination that a top tier rmp would bring? I definitely don’t. Half the people that play this game are quiet when it comes to anything other than rotations. It feels like everyone is playing the play style of a melee cleave and they’re running around zerging targets.

I’m not saying eles and other classes shouldn’t be changed. But to cry about how overpowered X is just because you don’t know what to do against it is insane when you’re complaining about “hot join players” doing the same exact thing.

Also, like I said when you were bombarding me with whispers, that’s not why we stopped playing. We stopped for a couple of reasons, but mainly because with no infrastructure in place, and playing 1 team that constantly talks kitten or pugs on the same map every day the game was getting old and not fun.

It was also cool watching you fill everyone’s heads with things that I never said. But that’s a story for another day.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Who cares about whether or not he has pride or not?

If you perform an analysis of development strategies across competitive games and determine which type of balancing technique was more successful at retaining and growing a playerbase, Davinci’s answer is undisputably correct. Not all games that balance with the competitive scene in mind become successes, but the majority of successes balance with the competitive scene in mind. Why is that?

Well, its pretty simple:

Balance is less important when there is a larger field of viable options. When you are a mediocre player, you can do things which aren’t viable competitively and come out as a winner. Because the relative ‘field’ of strategies which can win over inferior opponents is larger, accordingly there are less metagame related bottlenecks.

Additionally, the object of a non-competitive gamer is not to improve, and therefore win. Its generally to enjoy the process of playing. However, this type of engagement with the game leads players to stop playing once the fun value of novelty wears off. Competitive players are not motivated by the fun of novelty. They are motivated by the fun of mastery. Mastery, by contrast, allows for communities to have longstanding pillars of knowledge, as players who stay for mastery tend to play more, and play with the objective of understanding the game, rather than doing stupid kitten which is fun.

It may be annoying that certain things exist within your game at lower levels, but without the longevity provided by competitive players, you rarely get decent stream viewership, tournament prize pools, community produced content, etc. The transition of a player between the casual and competitive phase isn’t done based upon whether or not a game was ‘fun’, either. It is done based on whether or not a game is ‘competition worthy’. The players who still PvE intensely, if you look at the cross-section of desires and complaints that they have, all show signs of playing competitively for decorative features. Players getting angry that they couldn’t get their unbreakable bell, or that they wasted a month of laurels, or that they didn’t have full access to the guild-mission content, etc.

If those players played for non-competitive fun, they wouldn’t mind that pre-buff dragon chests dropped kitten. They would be thinking “wow, dragon fights look kittening cool”. They don’t.

So, since ‘competitive’ players have additional motivation to stay with your game, YOU CATER TO THEM. Their friends who have only a casual attachment to the game end up joining because they like the network effects related to socialization and the novelty of the game, etc.

GW2’s PvE has been developed with competition in mind. Look at the amount of unbreakables, the scaling and gating on fractals, the unlocking process for guild missions, etc. GW2’s Pvp has been developed without competition in mind. You can see which segment of the playerbase has vanished, and it should be entirely predictable based upon the case-studies of previous games why that is.

DANG, facts pulled out. sounds like the truth IMO.