Guild Wars 2

milo.6942:

Liewec.2896:

“if you only play hotjoin don’t point out that instant death is op.”

wow…just wow.
first these idiots tell you they want your part of the game removed because THEY don’t use it, now they tell you unless you play their part of the game you are’nt allowed an opinion.
we need gasmasks to survive the colossal brainfart they just released…

why don’t you play tournies? why do you like hotjoin better?

I will pipe in here with my reason from my previous post.

In tPvP, the game changes to focus almost entirely on map control… against good teams, there are no more fair 1v1 fights for a node, no more balanced builds, no more creativity that lasts past the odd team full of good players that happen to make their idea work against entry level tPvP teams.

It becomes about mobility, burst, and bunker. That, to me, isn’t as fun as getting to use the quality balanced build that synergizes just so, that I can defeat equal level players after a hard fought fight, and in hotjoin at the moment, you at least get to do that from time to time. The individual can shine in hotjoin, in tPvP, you are part of a unit, and your build is typically forced into a certain pigeon-hole in order to attain maximum efficiency.

Back when I used to play tPvP, my team would almost always win out on any fair fights, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and still lose the match because of map control. I agree, we were the worse team and got outplayed, but why make such a fantastic PvP engine, only for the ‘endgame’ to completely bypass all the great things about it and become about map movement speed and overpowering/quickly outnumbering with burst due to bunker builds?

Anyway, THAT… is why I no longer play tPvP. Is my opinion invalid as well?

aydenunited.5729:

Back when I used to play tPvP, my team would almost always win out on any fair fights, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and still lose the match because of map control. I agree, we were the worse team and got outplayed, but why make such a fantastic PvP engine, only for the ‘endgame’ to completely bypass all the great things about it and become about map movement speed and overpowering/quickly outnumbering with burst due to bunker builds?

Had the same experience. I’m a wvw’er and my guild mostly just roams wvw, but a while back there was an especially bad stretch of wvw so we decided to do some tpvp. We won our fair share of games, but the top tpvp teams did beat us soundly. But it wasn’t because we were getting destroyed in the 1v1s/2v2s, it was because the other teams had such good map control that they never had to do an even numbered fight. I’m not saying they did anything wrong, but as someone who enjoys fighting and not the lame game mode, that isn’t very satisfying to deal with, even if the level of competition was refreshing.

I prefer playing hotjoin because it’s basically TDM. There are conquest points, but no one really cares about them. It’s more about actually fighting each other and the circles just exist as a way to get some points here and there. I also like that I can go in with one of my unusual builds (as all my builds are) and still be one of if not the strongest in the match.

Also, from what I’ve seen recently, the level of competition in hotjoins has gone up significantly. It used to be hotjoins were filled with low ranks, but these days, the average rank in most matches is around 25. I see tons of 30+, a fair number of 40+, and even a handful of 50+. Rank of course doesn’t correlate directly to skill, but it’s definitely not the same as the last time I played spvp. This is actually probably a bad thing because it means fewer new players are playing/sticking with spvp, but oh well.

Davinci.8027:

There’s no need for belittling in here.

Classic contradiction king Davinci. Your entire thread is belittling the majority of players in this game.

They are entitled to an opinion just as much as you are.

If there was more information and a more friendly community around then perhaps they could advance and learn to counter backstab, shatters and 100B.

But when all they meet is a wall of insults, L2P arguments (without any teaching) and belittlement from the pvp community what are they going to do except complain on the forums or quit. I’ve seen it from you within /mapchat hence how many average players can’t stand you.

I see you insult people you don’t know in map chat calling them nobodies and then you tell them that they have no right to insult you back because they don’t know you.
….Wait what?

I think Davinci brings up a good point, but he did it in a negative tone.

Simply stated, ArenaNet has in the past been known to push their balancing efforts based on tPvP (so how classes work in a team setting).

In sPvP (Hotjoin), certain classes and builds perform differently than when placed in the tPvP setting.

If tPvP is the future for ArenaNets competitive environment (and thus their aspirations to become an eSport), then tPvP is where ArenaNet will balance classes around.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, ArenaNet is more pressed to consider the suggestions of people who spend their time in tPvP and tPvP statistics. In essence, sPvP ‘HotJoin’ players should wait to comment until they have spent more time in tPvP – this way their suggestions will be more thorough and will garner more attention from the ArenaNet balance team.

As much as I am loathe to agree with Davinci , the core of what he is saying is accurate.

That is, hotjoin strategy is not representative of the intended GW2 gameplay. Hotjoin is all about YOU. Getting glory, testing a new build. It’s not about the team. Team based 5v5 is what pv kitten upposed to be about.

Hot join teaches bad habits that make the transition out of hot join even harder. However, most of this is moot with custom arenas, which will allow players to practice properly before getting into a tournament.

Actually, the opinions of people who duel a lot are worth a lot more than those doing tPvP. Balance is a 1v1 thing before anything else.

Whether or not balance suggestions hold as much merit from a casual player, quality of play experience (or issues of fun) should.

It is good to hear all opinions for different reasons, threads phrased like this however are terrible as you are likely to do more harm than good. Discouraging people from voicing their opinion is never a good thing.

Yes, the top of the players base should be the only ones that get any say in balance changes.

Why? Because we are the ones that know how to play the game the best. We are the ones that have spent countless hours learning about every class and how to counter them and how to play against them.

Classes should not be nerfed to the ground because you refuse to put in time to L2P.

Acandis.3250:

Yes, the top of the players base should be the only ones that get any say in balance changes.

actually no. top players have good input to give about top-level play, but they’ve no idea how to balance for lower-skill level players, which is still important. balance should be a series of steps and counter-steps from rank 1 to the top. e.g. the easiest play can be countered by a slightly more difficult play, which can be countered by a slightly more difficult play, etc. all the way to the top. at the moment, I think the balance in this sense is “ok” but still needs lots of work. input from top players and low players should be looked at carefully by a person that is not particularly invested in playing. it’s important to remain detached and fair in the assessment of game balance. in this respect, top players are probably the least suited to make direct changes to game balance (they are the most invested players of all). at the same time, their experience is invaluable in providing good top-level play.

The most knowledgeable and experienced players should give feedback.
Facts or coherences should also not be twisted by those for selfish reasons.
As it has been made clear before that Conquest will be the competitive game-mode as long as the developers do not change that, the competitive players playing that mode have the highest chances to give proper feedback for now considering their broad experience and knowledge. I do agree though, top players should not be the only ones to give feedback but if this game should be more competitive than it is now, it has to be balanced around the highest level of play.
Also, people have to deal with the fact that some stuff ain’t easy and has to be learned. So there is no excuse for dumbing down the game. There should be more opportunities to learn and improve. Custom servers may help a lot once they are out.

But what I find most important besides that is that we have PvE and PvP seperate skill-wise as it used to be in GW1. Some balance-changes cannot be made as it would influence PvE heavily. The best example is the warrior.
Alternatively more skills can be seperate.

It really is funny how many “top players” think 99.5% of the playerbase should be ignored and neglected in favor of their .5%.

dreztina.4820:

It really is funny how many “top players” think 99.5% of the playerbase should be ignored and neglected in favor of their .5%.

In this case I would agree with you. And I do… Trying to play the 8team tournament is just insanely long and some solo que two team tournaments take awhile still. Hot-Join still has more people in it than most tourneys.

mbh.8301:

Vanthian.9267:

The amount of arrogance is staggering….

It`s well deserved when your hotjoin superstars are always doing the tried and true 5-0-0 opening.

Well not true…they go 4-0-0 cause one guy usually doesn’t know game is already started and he goes down just in time for being anihilated by the one crossing for their side…then they go 4 on boss (If forest) while being 2 capped with contested side…ends with 3 cap for other team, but hey…they had 25 points for killing the boss….when we see them all rushing the boss at start we just leave 2 at keep, no need for more….

Lady Sara Goldheart.2764:

The most knowledgeable and experienced players should give feedback.
Facts or coherences should also not be twisted by those for selfish reasons.
As it has been made clear before that Conquest will be the competitive game-mode as long as the developers do not change that, the competitive players playing that mode have the highest chances to give proper feedback for now considering their broad experience and knowledge. I do agree though, top players should not be the only ones to give feedback but if this game should be more competitive than it is now, it has to be balanced around the highest level of play.
Also, people have to deal with the fact that some stuff ain’t easy and has to be learned. So there is no excuse for dumbing down the game. There should be more opportunities to learn and improve. Custom servers may help a lot once they are out.

But what I find most important besides that is that we have PvE and PvP seperate skill-wise as it used to be in GW1. Some balance-changes cannot be made as it would influence PvE heavily. The best example is the warrior.
Alternatively more skills can be seperate.

Agree. As on a high-level the classes show their full potential. Best example is thief in hotjoin, considered to be op by instant-kills. If it comes to tpvp they’re chances aren’t that great due to instant rezzing, aoe and focusing on gc’s akka thieves.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Lady Sara Goldheart.2764:

The most knowledgeable and experienced players should give feedback.
Facts or coherences should also not be twisted by those for selfish reasons.
As it has been made clear before that Conquest will be the competitive game-mode as long as the developers do not change that, the competitive players playing that mode have the highest chances to give proper feedback for now considering their broad experience and knowledge. I do agree though, top players should not be the only ones to give feedback but if this game should be more competitive than it is now, it has to be balanced around the highest level of play.
Also, people have to deal with the fact that some stuff ain’t easy and has to be learned. So there is no excuse for dumbing down the game. There should be more opportunities to learn and improve. Custom servers may help a lot once they are out.

But what I find most important besides that is that we have PvE and PvP seperate skill-wise as it used to be in GW1. Some balance-changes cannot be made as it would influence PvE heavily. The best example is the warrior.
Alternatively more skills can be seperate.

Agree. As on a high-level the classes show their full potential. Best example is thief in hotjoin, considered to be op by instant-kills. If it comes to tpvp they’re chances aren’t that great due to instant rezzing, aoe and focusing on gc’s akka thieves.

My team- 2x Guardians, 2x thieves, me ( burst ele) – win rate = 8/10 at r40-50

I play as skirmisher, the first to get in…and the last to get out, I don’t last long but enough time for the thieves to come and clear the area of any opponents, who unwisely spent all their defensive CD to survive my initial burst ( loads and loads of pain at 2.8k power+ arcane wave)

After my initial burst, the opponent has still room to breath despite my efforts, thieves are perfect to finish off weakened foes while my role is to make them weak in the first place, in this way we clear out bunkers and cap pts before helps arrive, as we mostly attack by surprise( essential )

Cluster bomb is basically my airborne support on demand, against necro+mesmer combos I can send one thief for each while I put pressure on the most “annoying” one of the two, we rotate ..if the thief taking too much dmg I go to help while he “briefly” retreat.

If you play as glass cannon…act as one, me( to a certain extent) and the guadians take the beating..you go behind and kill them, thief is far from being “useless” , “my” thieves are very very very smart players, that shadow refuge when I go down arrives always on the clock, that burst spike always on the dot, I call the spike when the time comes..boom..you’re dead, they never join aoe fights…you see me and the guardian…the thieves are behind you, watch your back!

the tears in this thread are priceless

great and 100% correct and true thread.

Acandis.3250:

Yes, the top of the players base should be the only ones that get any say in balance changes.

Everyone is allowed to share an opinion on how things run.
Which is all they’re doing, even if that opinion is seen as trash.
They ask laymen what they think of Superbowl match-ups before the game, despite not being the top of the players, because the opinion still has some value, if not for balance but then into the experience they are having and whether the game could be made more ergonomic to improve the experience of everyone else. It may possibly also spark an idea off something that may of been missed.

I mostly agree. If all you’ve done is watch football/basketball/tennis/hockey/gw2, but you haven’t played it, I’d be very wary to listen to your opinion on the finer things of the game. However it doesn’t mean you can’t make a valid point. Or if all you did was play some touch football (Hot-join) it’s unlikely you’ll say something of worth but you may and silencing you before you get the chance is unnecessary.

What davenchi is trying to say is most hot join players aren’t as good as him. So his opinion is the only one that matters when it comes to balance. For example, a lot of hot join players complain about thieves because a lot of hot join players don’t understand how to deal with thieves. They then continue to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how thieves need to be nerfed.

However, since davenchi is way better than everyone else, whatever he loses to in tournaments is clearly overpowered. For example, he runs into a trap ranger and dies in 30 seconds because davenchi doesn’t understand how to deal with trap rangers. He then continues to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how rangers need to be nerfed.

lol, anyone see any similarities???

Follidus.8027:

What davenchi is trying to say is most hot join players aren’t as good as him. So his opinion is the only one that matters when it comes to balance. For example, a lot of hot join players complain about thieves because a lot of hot join players don’t understand how to deal with thieves. They then continue to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how thieves need to be nerfed.

However, since davenchi is way better than everyone else, whatever he loses to in tournaments is clearly overpowered. For example, he runs into a trap ranger and dies in 30 seconds because davenchi doesn’t understand how to deal with trap rangers. He then continues to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how rangers need to be nerfed.

lol, anyone see any similarities???

Aren’t you one of those players that quit because you got counter comped by Hiba’s condi-nade engi, and then proceeded to try and copy that same build (while calling it OP) and fail?
PZ has consistently run cheesy comps and has only ever been successful running cheesy comps, and I am not the only person who knows this. I’m not the one who gets wiped by Vyndetta in under 30 seconds, that’s you Folly.
PZ was running double elementalist, double ranger, and while it is disputed how strong trap rangers are, it goes without saying that during the time they were running the comp, elementalists were EXTREMELY overpowered (especially pre-Mist on Down nerf). Everyone wanted PZ off the map because they were cheesing up the meta and making the game unenjoyable for 80% of players.

In regards to the other comments, as Defektive said, my first post was not well put, but the point I am trying to get at is this:

If you do not have enough experience/knowledge about the intricacies of each class and how they are played both individually and in a team setting, then your opinion may not be as valued as someone who does have this experience/knowledge.
Mesmers and thieves can excel in hotjoins, because the calibre of play there is lower than it is in tPvP. Mesmers and thieves are 2 of the most under-valued classes in tPvP, because players know better how to deal with them. They are 2 classes that, at first, seem to be extremely OP, but, when understood, become exceedingly easy to counter.
I hope this clears things up.

Davinci.8027:

Follidus.8027:

What davenchi is trying to say is most hot join players aren’t as good as him. So his opinion is the only one that matters when it comes to balance. For example, a lot of hot join players complain about thieves because a lot of hot join players don’t understand how to deal with thieves. They then continue to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how thieves need to be nerfed.

However, since davenchi is way better than everyone else, whatever he loses to in tournaments is clearly overpowered. For example, he runs into a trap ranger and dies in 30 seconds because davenchi doesn’t understand how to deal with trap rangers. He then continues to complain in map chat and make forum posts about how rangers need to be nerfed.

lol, anyone see any similarities???

Aren’t you one of those players that quit because you got counter comped by Hiba’s condi-nade engi, and then proceeded to try and copy that same build (while calling it OP) and fail?
PZ has consistently run cheesy comps and has only ever been successful running cheesy comps, and I am not the only person who knows this. I’m not the one who gets wiped by Vyndetta in under 30 seconds, that’s you Folly.
PZ was running double elementalist, double ranger, and while it is disputed how strong trap rangers are, it goes without saying that during the time they were running the comp, elementalists were EXTREMELY overpowered (especially pre-Mist on Down nerf). Everyone wanted PZ off the map because they were cheesing up the meta and making the game unenjoyable for 80% of players.

In regards to the other comments, as Defektive said, my first post was not well put, but the point I am trying to get at is this:

If you do not have enough experience/knowledge about the intricacies of each class and how they are played both individually and in a team setting, then your opinion may not be as valued as someone who does have this experience/knowledge.
Mesmers and thieves can excel in hotjoins, because the calibre of play there is lower than it is in tPvP. Mesmers and thieves are 2 of the most under-valued classes in tPvP, because players know better how to deal with them. They are 2 classes that, at first, seem to be extremely OP, but, when understood, become exceedingly easy to counter.
I hope this clears things up.

Davenchi, best at making things up NA.

Mujen.2089:

The difference between hotjoins & tourney is more teamwork, more bunkers, less solo artists (Heart Seeker GC thieves, etc.). This game’s pvp isn’t that hard to understand, I mean seriously you get 3 different utility skillbars to pick from, 1 heal button & 1 elite which depends on team comp. Let’s not make it into more than it is, game’s pretty limited. You don’t even have accessories in spvp, cap on stats (crit), no DR on CCs, no serious peels…

And I agree, rally/downed state in PvP is annoying, but it’s here to stay, so might as well take advantage of it.

Pretty much this.
To the elitists of these pages.

Quaker.1385:

Mujen.2089:

The difference between hotjoins & tourney is more teamwork, more bunkers, less solo artists (Heart Seeker GC thieves, etc.). This game’s pvp isn’t that hard to understand, I mean seriously you get 3 different utility skillbars to pick from, 1 heal button & 1 elite which depends on team comp. Let’s not make it into more than it is, game’s pretty limited. You don’t even have accessories in spvp, cap on stats (crit), no DR on CCs, no serious peels…

And I agree, rally/downed state in PvP is annoying, but it’s here to stay, so might as well take advantage of it.

Pretty much this.
To the elitists of these pages.

There’s actually alot more than you think.
There is alot of CC/Peels if used correctly. The skillcap in this game is very high in a team setting. You can tell simply by looking at how players played 6 months ago compared to how they were playing 1-2 months ago (when there was still competition). The difference is huge.

davinci: stop wasting time . there is someone who understand what u say, someone who don’t and someone who doesn’t care.
if devs care and understand this thread, we will see in the next patch. o.w do as we did: take a break from the game

I play both tpvp and hotjoin, I like both.

Hotjoin is more chaotic, more people on the teams, sometimes more fun because of it.
Nice thing about hotjoin is the quick entry into the game, instead of waiting in the tpvp queue and then sitting out the 2 minute wait before it starts besides

Other times I like the 5 v 5 tourney format and do the solo tpvp queue, that’s fun sometimes too.

Doing just one or the other is pointlessly limited in a pvp format that is already limited enough since it’s based on controlling these little circles.

Anyone discrediting others cannot be taken seriously. If your arguments are so strong you shouldn’t care about what you consider lesser arguments.

Visionary.5681:

Razor.6392:

Visionary.5681:

mbh.8301:

bomber.1540:

Does that mean I have no right to an opinion?

Depends if you’re bad / your opinions are bad.

The arrogance of this person is getting beyond funny.

The game style he plays is the only one that matters.

Only those who share an opinion the same as his, have valid opinions.

I do wonder how these people survive in the real world?

All I know is that someone with limited knowledge of a certain subject, shouldn’t be allowed to have an opinion.

And that would include you. It is indeed beyond funny how that simple fact annoys you.

People shouldnt be allowed to have opinions?

Hahahahah

I’m starting to think your trolling? There is no way someone with any intelligence , could state the things you do.

Or maybe i’m overlooking the obvious about you?

Your opinion in this subject is as valuable as one from a 5 years old about an advanced math problem.

Sure you can have an opinion, but it’s absolutely pointless. You simply lack the knowledge to make your opinion valid, therefore you shouldn’t bother.

I get your point though, you can rant all you want, at the end of the day no one will pay you attention, which nets the same result.

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

More people hotjoin than play tournaments. Tournys are in the minority.

Face it, GW2 “structured” pvp is meant to be hotjoin. This game cant support competitive play.

WvW on the other hand is quite well done. It has its problems, but at least each class is moderately playable, and the glaring problems with game mechanics and poor design choices arent as significant.

Sand Beagle.9867:

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

More people hotjoin than play tournaments. Tournys are in the minority.

Face it, GW2 “structured” pvp is meant to be hotjoin. This game cant support competitive play.

WvW on the other hand is quite well done. It has its problems, but at least each class is moderately playable, and the glaring problems with game mechanics and poor design choices arent as significant.

Just because more people play hotjoins does not mean it’s where the PvP is headed or where balance is supposed to be based around. The devs have repeatedly said that tPvP is where they want this game heading. They have made the wrong choices when it comes to features/core systems and this has led to a decline in the tPvP population.

If I can guess right, you probably under the illusion that mesmers and thieves are ‘RIDICULOUSLY" op and need a hard nerf. This is the point I was originally getting at.
If all you play is hotjoin, you do not understand the mechanics/gameplay enough to make a suitable and valuable judgement on what is OP or UP. You are entitled to your opinion, and it’s there, that’s fine. But don’t expect the devs to take your opinion into account when they are balancing.

I wish this game could be balanced around competitive play; but at the moment I think that its paramount this game, have a more fun and balanced experience for casual players, as the need for a larger pvp community trumps trying to please the small existing pvp community. I think thats a reality a lot of competitive players in this game are having a hard time grasping.

If you wish to alienate the majority of the casual community, then the competitive community won’t have much to play for. The casual players are in essence the pillars on which the competitive community is built. Sadly if your saying its fine that those pillars erode away, then there won’t be much hope for a competitive community.

All I can say, is (and I know this is a lot to ask) be patient, once this game becomes more bearable for the regular casual player, then the high end fixes and balancing can come in, because its the job of the competitive community to adapt; whilst your regular player simply lacks the time to do so.

I know that this is a very mundane topic, and we could argue this back and forth, this is only how I perceive things and to each his own I suppose.

Davinci.8027:

Sand Beagle.9867:

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

More people hotjoin than play tournaments. Tournys are in the minority.

Face it, GW2 “structured” pvp is meant to be hotjoin. This game cant support competitive play.

WvW on the other hand is quite well done. It has its problems, but at least each class is moderately playable, and the glaring problems with game mechanics and poor design choices arent as significant.

Just because more people play hotjoins does not mean it’s where the PvP is headed or where balance is supposed to be based around. The devs have repeatedly said that tPvP is where they want this game heading. They have made the wrong choices when it comes to features/core systems and this has led to a decline in the tPvP population.

If I can guess right, you probably under the illusion that mesmers and thieves are ‘RIDICULOUSLY" op and need a hard nerf. This is the point I was originally getting at.
If all you play is hotjoin, you do not understand the mechanics/gameplay enough to make a suitable and valuable judgement on what is OP or UP. You are entitled to your opinion, and it’s there, that’s fine. But don’t expect the devs to take your opinion into account when they are balancing.

aren’t shatter mesmers getting nerfed tho?

I do believe they are overpowered because of the sheer amount of frustrating mechanics that a single clone-bot can bring to the table.

Generally speaking, even in real life, somebody who goes and try to impose on others what they can say and do, will never be considered an intelligent person or worth of any respect.

From the way some people have spoken in this thread…I can only assume that they’ve been not properly introduced to real life, their social life is not properly developed as a consequence of this; what makes a real top player is the top personality and social skills, such player is definetely able to give constructive opinion and generally become an example for the casual players, just watch and follow players like @Xeph and @Phantaram, they give an example of what a top player can be in GW2.

On the other hand we’ve got these pretentious wannabe, who believe their word count something simply because they’ve played XX tournaments….
…you’re not an example for anybody
…you’re unable of taking criticism, without calling people off
….you’re a social outcast

Top personality + top social skills = Top player

The logic is sound here.

Because personality is not a subjective thing and can be valued on a rating between 1-100.

Getting tired of all the kitten going on in here because Hotjoin heroes are mad that they suck.

I’m out.

One final thing:

Balance should not be catered to the casual, low-tier players. It is that simple. Hotjoin is where you go to slaughter and get slaughtered.
If this were the case, then Blizzard would be balancing WoW PvP based off of random battlegrounds and not 3v3 Arenas….

Razor.6392:

Davinci.8027:

Sand Beagle.9867:

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

More people hotjoin than play tournaments. Tournys are in the minority.

Face it, GW2 “structured” pvp is meant to be hotjoin. This game cant support competitive play.

WvW on the other hand is quite well done. It has its problems, but at least each class is moderately playable, and the glaring problems with game mechanics and poor design choices arent as significant.

Just because more people play hotjoins does not mean it’s where the PvP is headed or where balance is supposed to be based around. The devs have repeatedly said that tPvP is where they want this game heading. They have made the wrong choices when it comes to features/core systems and this has led to a decline in the tPvP population.

If I can guess right, you probably under the illusion that mesmers and thieves are ‘RIDICULOUSLY" op and need a hard nerf. This is the point I was originally getting at.
If all you play is hotjoin, you do not understand the mechanics/gameplay enough to make a suitable and valuable judgement on what is OP or UP. You are entitled to your opinion, and it’s there, that’s fine. But don’t expect the devs to take your opinion into account when they are balancing.

aren’t shatter mesmers getting nerfed tho?

I do believe they are overpowered because of the sheer amount of frustrating mechanics that a single clone-bot can bring to the table.

Please review the closed thread titled Mes/thief non problem.

So if Hot Join Heroes click on a different NPC to join the game, their opinions suddenly matter even if they stay exactly the same?

It isn’t as if tPvP has some sort of barrier to entry. There’s no qualifying round or prelims to separate the wheat from the chaff. You’re a tPvPer… because you click submit roster instead of play now. It really has nothing to do with being good or not.

It’s essentially a hot join mode with the opportunity to join as a group. MMR makes it a little better, but with the tiny population and no premade/solo queue split, it’s not by much.

You’re trying to reason and use logic with the 0.5% of players that think they are better and more important than anyone else because they play GW2 for 8-10 hours a day and that’s all they do.

The players that dug a small e-hole for themselves and the very few elitists like them to sit in.

They don’t get on with and understand the other 99.5% because it’s the same for them off the internet, no social skills, no manners, no ability to interact with different personalities.
Just look at how Davinci utterly fails to deal with different opinions in this thread or in /mapchat, even from people that also just play tourneys but can see the big picture, he insults and rages, like a baby throwing his toys out the pram. He literally can’t handle it.

You’re talking to people who’s natural response to a different opinion is to insult, and troll. They can’t think of the big picture.

Then we have civil people like Xeph who do play in the high end, do understand high end team play and yet also understand that for a small top end community to exist in a game like this there needs to be a bigger semi-hardcore community below them, a bigger casual tourney community below that and an even bigger mostly hot join sometimes tourney community below that. It needs to be a pyramid.

This forum is just as bad as every other official game forum. It shouldn’t be taken seriuosly by anyone and I’m shocked to read elsewhere that apparantly the devs are reading in here.
In my opinion a dedicated PvP community website would be really healthy for this community. As small as our numbers might be, there is no reason to not post content on http://www.reddit.com/r/gw2esports, or guildwars2guru.

Xeph.4513:

I wish this game could be balanced around competitive play; but at the moment I think that its paramount this game, have a more fun and balanced experience for casual players, as the need for a larger pvp community trumps trying to please the small existing pvp community. I think thats a reality a lot of competitive players in this game are having a hard time grasping.

If you wish to alienate the majority of the casual community, then the competitive community won’t have much to play for. The casual players are in essence the pillars on which the competitive community is built. Sadly if your saying its fine that those pillars erode away, then there won’t be much hope for a competitive community.

All I can say, is (and I know this is a lot to ask) be patient, once this game becomes more bearable for the regular casual player, then the high end fixes and balancing can come in, because its the job of the competitive community to adapt; whilst your regular player simply lacks the time to do so.

I know that this is a very mundane topic, and we could argue this back and forth, this is only how I perceive things and to each his own I suppose.

There are tons of PvP games out there with a bigger following than GW2 while being much more demanding. There is definitely an audience for competitive gaming that is strong enough to support games for many years. There is definitely an audience for GW2 PvP, if it would just have the necessary features. The competitive gamers would play this game, if competition would be possible.
Not everyone that plays competitive games is a pro gamer. It is possible to enjoy competition casually. This audience could very well be alienated, if the skill ceiling gets too low. The players that quit, because they get 1shotted aren’t expected to buy GW2 anyway, when Anet says they want to go the esports way. The players that are attracted by the esports label are in it for a huge learning curve that differentiates the skill of the players.

The OP’s attitude and post/ideology is exactly what kills pvp populations.
The trickle down theory does not work.
You need to serve the middle class, not the 1%.

There’s two things going on here.

1. Hotjoin 8v8 vs tournament 5v5

2. Casual/low skill vs competitive/high skill.

I’ve seen good players in hot join. I’ve seen bad players in tournaments. It’s not about how good you are, it’s about what is GW2 pvp supposed to be? Is it hot join or tpvp?

Since they are very different, we have to prioritize one to balance around. I don’t see any good arguments to support that we should be balancing around hot join.

Let’s try to leave player skill out of it. New player opinions are VERY important for the game to grow, but so are the opinions of “experts” in order to retain people.

Hopefully custom arenas will crush the legitimacy of hot join. With a safe and reliable place to practice, more players will play tournaments. This will allow matchmaking to give everyone a good match.

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

However the impression on whether or not people wish to continue in this game is based off of what happens in hot joins. The only difference between hot joins and tourney is you have the “play now” button VS the Join Solo/Create Roster… The quality of player or the value of their comments should not be dismissed because they press a different button than you. Everyone is still going to have their biases in which classes are OP/UP regardless of what level they are playing at… and if ANet has any sense at all customer opinion will matter on all levels because guess how they increase their customer base NEW PLAYERS SPREADING BY WORD OF MOUTH TO GET OTHER NEW PLAYERS! The “pro” tourney players have already made their minds up as to whether or not it is worth to try and bring more people into this game. The new players have not.

Having said that, please do not feel that you have the right to impose on others what they should state is viable/not viable, OP/UP (freedom of speech bucko) and rally is here to stay either way. Some of us have lives (full time BSN student) and play the game when we get the chance. Some of us don’t and can play tourney maps over and over and over and over to accumulate the glory to become rank (insert whatever number people think entitles you to most important opinion). That is the fundamental flaw in your argument, you do not have the right to discriminate against a majority of the player base because you consider yourself better then the rest of them solely because you spend more time at the keyboard.

jportell.2197:

Davinci.8027:

Please do not make comments on what is viable/not viable, what is OP/UP, and whether rally should be in the game or not.

However the impression on whether or not people wish to continue in this game is based off of what happens in hot joins. The only difference between hot joins and tourney is you have the “play now” button VS the Join Solo/Create Roster… The quality of player or the value of their comments should not be dismissed because they press a different button than you. Everyone is still going to have their biases in which classes are OP/UP regardless of what level they are playing at… and if ANet has any sense at all customer opinion will matter on all levels because guess how they increase their customer base NEW PLAYERS SPREADING BY WORD OF MOUTH TO GET OTHER NEW PLAYERS! The “pro” tourney players have already made their minds up as to whether or not it is worth to try and bring more people into this game. The new players have not.

Having said that, please do not feel that you have the right to impose on others what they should state is viable/not viable, OP/UP (freedom of speech bucko) and rally is here to stay either way. Some of us have lives (full time BSN student) and play the game when we get the chance. Some of us don’t and can play tourney maps over and over and over and over to accumulate the glory to become rank (insert whatever number people think entitles you to most important opinion). That is the fundamental flaw in your argument, you do not have the right to discriminate against a majority of the player base because you consider yourself better then the rest of them solely because you spend more time at the keyboard.

Well said.

everyone’s opinion is valid & must be weighed in context & relation to each other.

as xeph said, we really need to help the casual base right now.

we need elite players for high end balance to the same degree we need casual players for low end balance. “easy to play, hard to master” is what keeps a game healthy. if the game is only easy to play as a few professions, the casual game will steer itself in that direction.

that is exactly what we see in evidence with games of 80% thief / mesmer more consistently than any other profession. the casual balance, aka, “easy to play”, is askew.

If this game wants to go anywhere, then it needs to balance around high-tier play.
But, at this point, I don’t really care.
It’s going to the kittenter, so they can do what they want with it.

Davinci.8027:

If this game wants to go anywhere, then it needs to balance around high-tier play.
But, at this point, I don’t really care.
It’s going to the kittenter, so they can do what they want with it.

Which is why I am actually glad that the devs look at numbers and data more then they listen to players when they balance… Look at what classes use what weapons. Figuring out why they don’t use those weapons… Why certain builds are the least popular… If they balanced around what everybody said at any tier of play then this game would be way worse off then what you doomsday people seem to think if they relinquished to your amazing wisdom.

jportell.2197:

The quality of player or the value of their comments should not be dismissed because they press a different button than you. Some of us have lives.

A rabbit can only tell you about their experience as a new player.
Is this useful? Yes, it tells us a lot about why people aren’t playing.
Should it be used for balance decisions? …No? The game is hard to read and players have to constantly have their digits on a stun break or they’ll get thieved into little bits. If you think that balance input from all levels of the learning curve is a good idea then you just end up with schizophrenic balance changes which won’t approach any particular goal.

I don’t care if Hotjoin Harold comes in here with big opinions and ideas about game balance. There’s probably something to glean from what he’s saying, but what Harold says needs to be deciphered a bit since the relationship between mechanics is so convoluted that an inexperienced player probably won’t be able to identify it himself. Here we are demonizing Davinci so that his opinions can be discredited and make everyone feel like a special and unique little snowflake when it should be so obvious that Harold’s opinions are ill informed that I shouldn’t even have to waste internet on it.

Davinci was tactless and abrasive in his post, but when some guy starts a thread about a game mechanic before thinking about it long enough to figure out what purpose it serves then you might not want to be so quick to dismiss Davinci (loathsome as he may be).

Zinwrath.2049:

I dont know what purpose rally holds in spvp

jportell.2197:

Davinci.8027:

If this game wants to go anywhere, then it needs to balance around high-tier play.
But, at this point, I don’t really care.
It’s going to the kittenter, so they can do what they want with it.

Which is why I am actually glad that the devs look at numbers and data more then they listen to players when they balance… Look at what classes use what weapons. Figuring out why they don’t use those weapons… Why certain builds are the least popular… If they balanced around what everybody said at any tier of play then this game would be way worse off then what you doomsday people seem to think if they relinquished to your amazing wisdom.

Doomsday? Nay, I am no prophet, but the mists are empty, and we are desolate in this land, standing few to what we used to be.
The great have diminished, and the strong have fallen.
Only those with a heart of steel still hang on.

Au revoir….

mbh.8301:

jportell.2197:

The quality of player or the value of their comments should not be dismissed because they press a different button than you. Some of us have lives.

TL;DR

hide spoiler

Balance concerns aren’t the problem when it comes to bad players having fun. Disparity in skill and not being far enough along the learning curve are their main problems when they play in an environment which doesn’t regulate the skill level of their opponent.

A rabbit can only tell you about their experience as a new player.
Is this useful? Yes, it tells us a lot about why people aren’t playing.
Should it be used for balance decisions? …No? The game is hard to read and players have to constantly have their digits on a stun break or they’ll get thieved into little bits. If you think that balance input from all levels of the learning curve is a good idea then you just end up with schizophrenic balance changes which won’t approach any particular goal.

I don’t care if Hotjoin Harold comes in here with big opinions and ideas about game balance. There’s probably something to glean from what he’s saying, but what Harold says needs to be deciphered a bit since the relationship between mechanics is so convoluted that an inexperienced player probably won’t be able to identify it himself. Here we are demonizing Davinci so that his opinions can be discredited and make everyone feel like a special and unique little snowflake when it should be so obvious that Harold’s opinions are ill informed that I shouldn’t even have to waste internet on it.

Davinci was tactless and abrasive in his post, but when some guy starts a thread about a game mechanic before thinking about it long enough to figure out what purpose it serves then you might not want to be so quick to dismiss Davinci (loathsome as he may be).

Zinwrath.2049:

I dont know what purpose rally holds in spvp

But what I am saying is that if the devs completely ignore balance issues at low level of play then these low level players will just stop playing and never attempt at tournies or even continue playing the game… Now does that mean that devs should balance the entire game around what hot join Harold has to say? No… But it should not be completely dismissed in the abrasive way that Davinci states it should be. And in all honesty balance should be looked at from a numbers stand point (3million copies willing to bet at least 500,000+ are still playing in some way shape or form.) And only have player input make limited impact… Because while we have experience from us and those around us… They have access to statistics from the entire game as a whole. So that means what professions are used where (Thieves and Mesmers in hot join less so in tPvP) Thieves being one of the least popular dungeon classes, and many people dropping mesmers in pvp at around level 15 because they are so frustrated they feel the class isn’t even worth attempting anymore…

The devs have also stated that they do not like to split skills between PvP and PvE imagine if warriors got an all around buff in the way of condition removal… They would then become way more OP in PvE and no one would have use for anything else because their power is already good and the only weakness they have is in the condition removal area (now that isn’t to say that they don’t need love but it could be why they aren’t getting as much as people are demanding.) Look at the outrageous nerfs people demand on the Mesmer… This class is insanely hard to level at low levels and everything just one shots you and you have no condition removal until you get into slot skills.. Every other class usually gets it in one of their first healing skills. This could be why Mesmer isn’t completely nerfed into the ground as requested by several people here. And is also a good reason as to why the healing on an ele has only been marginally adjusted because the effects are felt throughout the entire ele player base not just the pvp crowd.

jportell.2197:

But what I am saying is that if the devs completely ignore balance issues at low level of play then these low level players will just stop playing and never attempt at tournies or even continue playing the game…

If low level players were exclusively matched against other low level players then this problem wouldn’t exist. You know what balance decision was made around low level players? Pistol whip thieves were nerfed because it was easy to use and bad players couldn’t figure out how to not die to it. I don’t think I know anyone who actually thought it needed to be nerfed.

jportell.2197:

The devs have also stated that they do not like to split skills between PvP and PvE imagine if warriors got an all around buff in the way of condition removal…

Finally you said something which is a bingo.

The pvp skills can’t easily be changed because of how they might impact the pve/wvw experience. Why? Because on the off-chance that Pve Paul and Wvw Winston decide to pvp the devs don’t want them to have to reread a single skill.

On which note I hope the following is obvious; Paul and Winston have made their choice. If they wanted to spvp then they would be playing spvp. Stop making people who don’t play the game mode a primary balance concern. What are you thinking?

mbh.8301:

jportell.2197:

But what I am saying is that if the devs completely ignore balance issues at low level of play then these low level players will just stop playing and never attempt at tournies or even continue playing the game…

If low level players were exclusively matched against other low level players then this problem wouldn’t exist. You know what balance decision was made around low level players? Pistol whip thieves were nerfed because it was easy to use and bad players couldn’t figure out how to not die to it. I don’t think I know anyone who actually thought it needed to be nerfed.

jportell.2197:

The devs have also stated that they do not like to split skills between PvP and PvE imagine if warriors got an all around buff in the way of condition removal…

Finally you said something which is a bingo.

The pvp skills can’t easily be changed because of how they might impact the pve/wvw experience. Why? Because on the off-chance that Pve Paul and Wvw Winston decide to pvp the devs don’t want them to have to reread a single skill.

On which note I hope the following is obvious; Paul and Winston have made their choice. If they wanted to spvp then they would be playing spvp. Stop making people who don’t play the game mode a primary balance concern. What are you thinking?

Maybe because they want all people who play the game to do all aspects of it… This is why there is a PvE/WvW game mode….If I had spent 60 bucks to get a game that was only PvP and the current PvP is what I got yeah I would be pretty kitten … But I spent the money on a game which has SEVERAL features and several different aspects… And the team is taking the entire population as a whole into consideration when balancing… So while the whole “Well these guys never PVP so why should it matter what you change to the classes to please us.” Is a very poor argument because they have stated that they do not intend to split changes maybe just on the hopes that people who are hard core into each game mode may try and dabble a little bit else where. It was 60 bucks after all… Why not experience everything that you paid for?