Guild Wars 2

There have been plenty of balance posts made by myself and other people out there so that’s not going to be the focus of this thread. What I want to discuss is how to increase build diversity. This is not a balance thread so please don’t make comments talking about balance, please stick to discussing the system changes I, and others, are proposing

1) Remove all amulets from pvp and allow people to choose stats for each gear piece individually.
To me this change is the most obvious for many reasons. You unlock the use of other trait lines that need higher stats to function at an acceptable level (I.E thief’s crit strikes line needs PvE and WvW levels of stats before it can become the highest damage mod line the thief has which is why nobody uses it in pvp). At the same time you allow people to customize their builds more to fit their style. Say I want to play a power warrior but I want just a bit of toughness so I can take just enough hits to survive to put out my damage, I can swap some zerker pieces for cavalier or knight’s. My build will be different than that of the guy running full zerk damage so we will have different playstyles. I may 1v1 more than him because my build will be better designed for it.

2) Bring back the old trait selection system (still sllow for 3 full lines and no stat bonuses from traits)
Basically the same reason as the first, more selection and customization will lead to more diversity. If I don’t want say a deadly arts grandmaster trait for my thief I could go take an acrobatics adept or maybe take something from critical strikes. There needs to be more selection available so you don’t get stuck with the “these are the three best lines so every build runs these” system. Now people can choose individual traits that will help their build more if they think they need it.

3) Shut down metabattle
This is a controversial one and I’m not even 100% sure on it. On one hand you eliminate the whole “this is the meta, it’s on metabattle and you’re a scrub if you play anything else. Experimenting is bad just play meta” mindset but you also make it harder for newer players to start their pvp journey because they won’t have easy access to a list of strong builds to begin learning as they strive to pvp.

Please if you have other suggestions share them here. Discuss what’s already been brought to the table and why you think it’s a good or bad idea. Please be constructive and polite to people so we can actually have an intelligent discussion. Have at it.

1. Dont agree. Limiting runes and amulets is part of the problem of build diversity. Instead, I suggest that amulets and rune combinations are tested regularly, possibly off season in “ranked play”. Let the community have some sway with a poll vote deciding which amulets/runes should be banned for the next season and which should stay. Maybe have a quantitative vote based on MMR (which is reset at the very end of each season) and allow a certain score to increase the sway of one’s vote. There are many ways they can do this, so my idea isn’t all they’re limited to, of course.

2. While that’s an interesting idea, they would have to re-balance around those should it be implemented, as they’re currently “balanced” around traitline and trait selection. To implement this change now would be a lot of work in itself, and even then, certain combinations will still be the most favorable and the “Meta”.

3. They’re a 3rd party site. Others would emerge that do the same either way. I dont see anything wrong with new players trying meta builds and learning how to play a class a certain way – its not like they -have- to play a meta build to succeed, and some might not even be comfortable with them. All it really takes is for people to decide for themselves whether or not they like what a build does against the standards these days, or prefer to play their own way and use what they like.

Hell, maybe anti-meta builds can succeed more often if less-used/favored traits were improved upon!

Euthymias.7984:

1. Dont agree. Limiting runes and amulets is part of the problem of build diversity. Instead, I suggest that amulets and rune combinations are tested regularly, possibly off season in “ranked play”. Let the community have some sway with a poll vote deciding which amulets/runes should be banned for the next season and which should stay. Maybe have a quantitative vote based on MMR (which is reset at the very end of each season) and allow a certain score to increase the sway of one’s vote. There are many ways they can do this, so my idea isn’t all they’re limited to, of course.

2. While that’s an interesting idea, they would have to re-balance around those should it be implemented, as they’re currently “balanced” around traitline and trait selection. To implement this change now would be a lot of work in itself, and even then, certain combinations will still be the most favorable and the “Meta”.

3. They’re a 3rd party site. Others would emerge that do the same either way. I dont see anything wrong with new players trying meta builds and learning how to play a class a certain way – its not like they -have- to play a meta build to succeed, and some might not even be comfortable with them. All it really takes is for people to decide for themselves whether or not they like what a build does against the standards these days, or prefer to play their own way and use what they like.

Hell, maybe anti-meta builds can succeed more often if less-used/favored traits were improved upon!

1) I’m confused on what you are saying here. I may be reading it wrong but it sounds like you are saying limiting our choices is bad and we should hold polls to make it possible to limit choices more. If that is the case then that doesn’t increase build diversity at all as every time you remove 1 amulet another amulet will be the go to and everyone will run that instead. The reason I want to see the stat selection system go through is because then while some combinations will be strong there can always be some small changes you can make so that while power engi may be the meta you will see all kinds of gear stat combos on said power engi that will make each one different. Yes it would be harder to balance but I think it’d be worth it if we are talking about long term enjoyment for people and trying to turn gw2 into an esport.

2) Yes there is a ton of work involved with any of these changes but honestly I think this one would be the best one to do out of the 3 (I’d to see 1 and 2 in I only put 3 there to see what others thought as I’m fairly impartial over it’s existence as I don’t use it but I don’t mind others using it). Things would need to be rebalanced and yes some combinations would be best for some setups there would never be a consistent “this is what your class runs all the time you don’t get any say if you want to function” (I.E engi is alchemy/inventions/scrapper, thief is deadly arts/trick/daredevil, warrior is defense/discipline/berserker, etc.) If this change is put in then maybe if I want to run d/d power thief over d/p I can take a few different choices that’d be more beneficial to the set I’m running rather than just stuff that’s in the line because I’m forced to take the whole line.

Ario.8964:

1) I’m confused on what you are saying here. I may be reading it wrong but it sounds like you are saying limiting our choices is bad and we should hold polls to make it possible to limit choices more. If that is the case then that doesn’t increase build diversity at all as every time you remove 1 amulet another amulet will be the go to and everyone will run that instead. The reason I want to see the stat selection system go through is because then while some combinations will be strong there can always be some small changes you can make so that while power engi may be the meta you will see all kinds of gear stat combos on said power engi that will make each one different. Yes it would be harder to balance but I think it’d be worth it if we are talking about long term enjoyment for people and trying to turn gw2 into an esport.

Okay, I’ll elaborate a bit further. Maybe an example will help.
>Season ends
>MMR resets
>Ranked Play option becomes Suspect/Test play

At this point, either Anet keeps the current selection of runes/amulets and gradually introduce a new/previously removed option every 2 weeks, with a vote on it staying or going. Alternatively, they can substitute/remove options if they feel its worth testing a format without those options. You PvP in this mode, and if your MMR from it is high enough, you can qualify to decide. You can vote to keep the introduced (or removed) rune/amulet at the end of this period…either to have both together, or to keep one or the other, or ban both.
Another MMR reset follows for the next period of testing so that its possible to qualify again for the next test period, and the decision from the last period carries over into the next.

It gives sPvP players something to do off season than just unranked play, and lets avid players give some shape to a gradually changing metagame for the next League season to come. I dont fully agree with fully customizing gear since its something I feel makes WvW unique compared to SPvP’s structured play.

Still, that’s just scratching the surface of it all. The Traits/Traitlines (and weapon skills for a number of professions) that have fallen out of favor being looked at and improved upon (and some toning down of the stronger/passive traits) will be a more immediate way to bring different builds to the fore.

Ario.8964:

1) Remove all amulets from pvp and allow people to choose stats for each gear piece individually.

This.

People will complain about balance for this. Too much OP (or optimize build) for spvp.

But… I would answer to that, implement hard cap, soft cap and diminishing returns.

:D

SPVP with full Gw2 stats system would be a blast to play. Because minor changes would have minor impact on play. This would made a lot of differents things going on all around.

The only problem with free stat distribution is that it dumpsters the very fine balance among the top builds that exists currently.

Free stat distribution in PvP right now will look like:

Condi Warrior, Mesmer, Necro, these professions getting a huge boost, running a condition build with condition duration, condition damage, toughness, and vitality. Basically usher in the condipocalypse if they weren’t viable enough.

Balance is centered around having optimal power amulets (Marauder, Paladin) but artificially weakened condition builds due to non-optimal condition build amulets.

If ArenaNet worked some balance-split magic to compensate for stat efficiency power creep it’d be ok..

Sorry, but you can’t discuss build diversity without talking about balance. The overarching reason for low build diversity is that elite specs are way too strong.

On your ideas:

Stat System
Amulets are too rigid. However, customization of every gear piece is too tedious and allows for too much min/maxing for pure survival or condi. A happy medium would be to split amulets into multiple items of 3-stat combos and let players mix and match. It’s good enough and ANet still has control. For example, ANet could do amulet + 2x ring and allow double defensive stat only in the amulet slot.

Old Trait System
No. The new trait system is a better design. It allows for more mutual exclusion, which allows traits to be more unique or interesting. It also allows better synergy in a line for a style of gameplay. Both of those lower permutations and make the job easier for the developers. ANet just did a poor job of using either of those strengths when they re-designed the system.
The main problem with the new trait system is having a few too many traits. Consider breaking the 3 minor, 3 major paradigm. Maybe some lines have only 2 minors to compensate for more powerful major traits.

Destroy Meta Battle
LOL No. Meta Battle has nothing to do with lack of diversity. It just allows for the playerbase to propagate builds in a week rather than a few weeks. We had “meta” builds long before MetaBattle.

How to increase build diversity:

Buff weapons, utilities and trait trees that aren’t currently taken.

Sarrs.4831:

How to increase build diversity:

Buff weapons, utilities and trait trees that aren’t currently taken.

100%

So many turds that can be polished into very fun and engaging playstyles. Fresh Air Ele, Melee Guardian weapons, power Mesmer, every damage Ranger build, etc, etc.

I know this is the millionth time that this has been posted, but apparently the devs wont get the message, so there is no point in not trying.
Remember the days when you could run power in pvp or wvw. You could run condi in addition to this as well. Remember when there were not just two viable builds for a class. Remember when all that there was to pvp was perma cc then condi bomb. Remember the talent system before the june 23 update? Well, none of this is around anymore, and pvp is a clusterfuzz of condi and cc. Engis hit like theives but heal like a vanilla bunker guardian. Necros cleave the hell out of everything, while condi bombing with unblockable 900-1200 range aoe. Warrior is spamming primal bursts to light people up in seconds or disintegrating them with condis. I mained, and still main, a power warrior in pvp, and I have drawn myself away from berserker because it is not as fun compared to warrior for me. I cant do ranked because power warrior is not too viable as of now, and whenever I do ranked I always switch to berserker so I am not obsolete. I am forced to yoloq in unranked where I have 3v1ed in some instances, to noobs on the same cookie cutter build. If I see a ranger, they are either a pew pew or bunker druid. Never any diversity. The devs need to stop this bullkitten of narrowing our builds and options.

1. Condi dps should be more like decay them over time, and have a more sustained build, throwing dots everywhere in team fights. Now condi just disintegrates people faster than a full burst thief or warrior. Every season there is a super bunker condi build that annihilates everything and is super tanky.
2. Bring back the old talent system
3. Nerf elite specs to be level with the other talents, only use them for synergy with other traits and a weapon, not just to be viable.

So many people have left the pvp world, it needs something new in it, like 3v3 arenas or 1v1 arenas, and for the love of god let us que outside of the heart of the mists.

That is my spiel, comment all you want. Thanks for reading

Exedore.6320:

Sorry, but you can’t discuss build diversity without talking about balance. The overarching reason for low build diversity is that elite specs are way too strong.

On your ideas:

Stat System
Amulets are too rigid. However, customization of every gear piece is too tedious and allows for too much min/maxing for pure survival or condi. A happy medium would be to split amulets into multiple items of 3-stat combos and let players mix and match. It’s good enough and ANet still has control. For example, ANet could do amulet + 2x ring and allow double defensive stat only in the amulet slot.

Old Trait System
No. The new trait system is a better design. It allows for more mutual exclusion, which allows traits to be more unique or interesting. It also allows better synergy in a line for a style of gameplay. Both of those lower permutations and make the job easier for the developers. ANet just did a poor job of using either of those strengths when they re-designed the system.
The main problem with the new trait system is having a few too many traits. Consider breaking the 3 minor, 3 major paradigm. Maybe some lines have only 2 minors to compensate for more powerful major traits.

Destroy Meta Battle
LOL No. Meta Battle has nothing to do with lack of diversity. It just allows for the playerbase to propagate builds in a week rather than a few weeks. We had “meta” builds long before MetaBattle.

What I meant by not discussing balance is “only do this if you nerf scrapper sustain” “Ele could be god mode with this so we need to disect each individual trait and talk about it” Ofc balance has to do with this but i don’t want to get into a huge discussion about each individual class and what changes it needs as I’ve talked enough about that for it to even be interesting anymore.

Chaith.8256:

Sarrs.4831:

How to increase build diversity:

Buff weapons, utilities and trait trees that aren’t currently taken.

100%

So many turds that can be polished into very fun and engaging playstyles. Fresh Air Ele, Melee Guardian weapons, power Mesmer, every damage Ranger build, etc, etc.

Some of these builds work when the stat system is fully customizeable because they can take just the amount of defensive stats they need to survive long enough to dish out their damage. Ofc to avoid the “condipocalypse” (love the term btw) there would need to be hard and soft caps on stats and diminished returns on some stats to avoid full on arms race power creep. Like setting toughness, vitality, and healing stat limits to avoid immortal bunkers. Or implementing diminished returns onto condi damage and power damage to avoid a tidal wave of power creep.

Never said it would be easy to implement, only that in the long run it’d be worth it. Especially if anet further pursues the idea of turning gw2 into an esport. Take a look at LoL in build perspective: people will have general templates for their champion of essentials and then outside of that is full customization to adapt to their matchups. With an amulet system and a locked trait system we eliminate the ability for people to make those customizations without sacrificing what could be considered their essentials.

Edit: not all of it was a response to your post but i put it there to avoid a spam of 3 or 4 posts in a row cause that’s silly.

Ario.8964:

Some of these builds work when the stat system is fully customizeable because they can take just the amount of defensive stats they need to survive long enough to dish out their damage. Ofc to avoid the “condipocalypse” (love the term btw) there would need to be hard and soft caps on stats and diminished returns on some stats to avoid full on arms race power creep. Like setting toughness, vitality, and healing stat limits to avoid immortal bunkers. Or implementing diminished returns onto condi damage and power damage to avoid a tidal wave of power creep.

…But you’ve basically just described the amulet system.

First of all props for sparking an actual intelligent discussion thread

1) Agree that amulets needs to go. They have been messing with them too much.This is what I suggested: sliders https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/A-new-system-for-stats-Sliders/first#post6227188

2) I dont see a downside to this. 9 traits instead of 3 for grandmaster. Nice.

3) Nope. Others have explained this well.

Sheltron.2190:

I know this is the millionth time that this has been posted, but apparently the devs wont get the message, so there is no point in not trying.
Remember the days when you could run power in pvp or wvw. You could run condi in addition to this as well. Remember when there were not just two viable builds for a class. Remember when all that there was to pvp was perma cc then condi bomb. Remember the talent system before the june 23 update? Well, none of this is around anymore, and pvp is a clusterfuzz of condi and cc. Engis hit like theives but heal like a vanilla bunker guardian. Necros cleave the hell out of everything, while condi bombing with unblockable 900-1200 range aoe. Warrior is spamming primal bursts to light people up in seconds or disintegrating them with condis. I mained, and still main, a power warrior in pvp, and I have drawn myself away from berserker because it is not as fun compared to warrior for me. I cant do ranked because power warrior is not too viable as of now, and whenever I do ranked I always switch to berserker so I am not obsolete. I am forced to yoloq in unranked where I have 3v1ed in some instances, to noobs on the same cookie cutter build. If I see a ranger, they are either a pew pew or bunker druid. Never any diversity. The devs need to stop this bullkitten of narrowing our builds and options.

1. Condi dps should be more like decay them over time, and have a more sustained build, throwing dots everywhere in team fights. Now condi just disintegrates people faster than a full burst thief or warrior. Every season there is a super bunker condi build that annihilates everything and is super tanky.
2. Bring back the old talent system
3. Nerf elite specs to be level with the other talents, only use them for synergy with other traits and a weapon, not just to be viable.

So many people have left the pvp world, it needs something new in it, like 3v3 arenas or 1v1 arenas, and for the love of god let us que outside of the heart of the mists.

That is my spiel, comment all you want. Thanks for reading

With the way queue times are. I’d love to be able to queue outside HotM. That alone may make sPvP bearable enoth for me to play more then 2 to 4 lop sided win/lose matches/week after waiting in queue for 5 minutes plus in Emerald of all divisions. Lol

Sarrs.4831:

Ario.8964:

Some of these builds work when the stat system is fully customizeable because they can take just the amount of defensive stats they need to survive long enough to dish out their damage. Ofc to avoid the “condipocalypse” (love the term btw) there would need to be hard and soft caps on stats and diminished returns on some stats to avoid full on arms race power creep. Like setting toughness, vitality, and healing stat limits to avoid immortal bunkers. Or implementing diminished returns onto condi damage and power damage to avoid a tidal wave of power creep.

…But you’ve basically just described the amulet system.

I’ve described what the amulet system was intended to do but failed to do. Using my system instead promotes more diversity because it provides other options for many classes for builds instead of limiting them to having to “settle” for a stat amulet.

Sheltron.2190:

I know this is the millionth time that this has been posted, but apparently the devs wont get the message, so there is no point in not trying.
Remember the days when you could run power in pvp or wvw. You could run condi in addition to this as well. Remember when there were not just two viable builds for a class. Remember when all that there was to pvp was perma cc then condi bomb. Remember the talent system before the june 23 update? Well, none of this is around anymore, and pvp is a clusterfuzz of condi and cc. Engis hit like theives but heal like a vanilla bunker guardian. Necros cleave the hell out of everything, while condi bombing with unblockable 900-1200 range aoe. Warrior is spamming primal bursts to light people up in seconds or disintegrating them with condis. I mained, and still main, a power warrior in pvp, and I have drawn myself away from berserker because it is not as fun compared to warrior for me. I cant do ranked because power warrior is not too viable as of now, and whenever I do ranked I always switch to berserker so I am not obsolete. I am forced to yoloq in unranked where I have 3v1ed in some instances, to noobs on the same cookie cutter build. If I see a ranger, they are either a pew pew or bunker druid. Never any diversity. The devs need to stop this bullkitten of narrowing our builds and options.

1. Condi dps should be more like decay them over time, and have a more sustained build, throwing dots everywhere in team fights. Now condi just disintegrates people faster than a full burst thief or warrior. Every season there is a super bunker condi build that annihilates everything and is super tanky.
2. Bring back the old talent system
3. Nerf elite specs to be level with the other talents, only use them for synergy with other traits and a weapon, not just to be viable.

So many people have left the pvp world, it needs something new in it, like 3v3 arenas or 1v1 arenas, and for the love of god let us que outside of the heart of the mists.

That is my spiel, comment all you want. Thanks for reading

Personally I feel this system would allow for that to happen due to the options people would have for stats. Every class can run a condi build and a power build but not necessarily with the amulets available so allowing customization of stats will help to boost people’s ability to build “out of the box”.

For a new pvp mode, I’m thinking the old GW1 Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry modes. They already have the formats still in place from the other game they’d just have to do some modifications and updates so it fit this game. Also I wouldn’t be opposed to 3v3 and 1v1 game modes, that could be cool.

I agree with the remove amulet things. How on earth ANET thinks they could balance PVP and PVE/WVW where in PVP you have restricted stat combinations while in PVE/WVW you can have whatever you want is beyond me.

However i would say start slowly. Let us make 3 choices using the currently available stats. So instead of choosing an amulet we can choose.

1. Weapon stats
2. Armor stats
3. Accessory (amulet) stats

in addition to rune and sigil choices that we already can do.

This would give us 3 times more flexibility than we currently do while still being easy for new players to “understand” or not be overwhelmed.

Ario.8964:

I’ve described what the amulet system was intended to do but failed to do. Using my system instead promotes more diversity because it provides other options for many classes for builds instead of limiting them to having to “settle” for a stat amulet.

Provide a specific example of a build that will not work with a current stat amulet yet would be viable with another amulet which has at most one defensive stat, which has not already been banned.

It’s very rare that a stat spread is what makes or breaks a build. The entire thesis makes no sense because this is not how you write effective builds. Stats are, in almost all cases, the absolute last thing you consider while building, and in almost all cases there are good-enough stat spreads. If your build doesn’t work, it’s either because it’s a bad build from the get-go or its optimal amulet is one that’s already been banned.

If you think I’m wrong, present a build that doesn’t use a banned statlist, would be viable with that statlist, and which doesn’t have a reasonable alternative.

I think decoupling the new utilities/heal/elites from specializations would open the game up to some build diversity.

Allowing people to choose stats for each gear piece individually would turn pvp into wvw

Look at wvw then think again if that would be wise. There are a lot of builds there that would disintegrate the meta and it is not even counting the condi cancer all through the fine tuning of stats….it could work since food and other op runes/sigils/ascended equipment wouldn’t exist in pvp so go figure

Chaith.8256:

The only problem with free stat distribution is that it dumpsters the very fine balance among the top builds that exists currently.

Free stat distribution in PvP right now will look like:

Condi Warrior, Mesmer, Necro, these professions getting a huge boost, running a condition build with condition duration, condition damage, toughness, and vitality. Basically usher in the condipocalypse if they weren’t viable enough.

Balance is centered around having optimal power amulets (Marauder, Paladin) but artificially weakened condition builds due to non-optimal condition build amulets.

If ArenaNet worked some balance-split magic to compensate for stat efficiency power creep it’d be ok..

Balance-splut magic…

It’s all about diminishing return, soft cap, hard cap of stats and what those stats achieves.

I agree with you that a free stats system right now, would not be good. But, having free stats and free traits allocation (like before) would open a lot more build diversities.

At first, it would be like HoT released, some too OP build that need to get town down. This is where diminshing returns, soft cap and stuff matters.

But… this is a so strong change, that it would need to be adressed on a TEST SERVER for MONTHs, open up to PVP players.

From there… dd ele would come back, celestial engi would come back but… a lot of other build we didn’t see before could be made to counter those builds.

It would be “organically” the players to find counter to META and not ANET to NERF thing to change META.

A good game is a game where META is balanced by players for players with the Choices they made.

With that system, a MAIN engi or a MAIN warrior would be a much better “take” than a multiclasser following cookie cutter build easy to find because you don’t have tons of valid options.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Allowing people to choose stats for each gear piece individually would turn pvp into wvw

Look at wvw then think again if that would be wise. There are a lot of builds there that would disintegrate the meta and it is not even counting the condi cancer all through the fine tuning of stats….it could work since food and other op runes/sigils/ascended equipment wouldn’t exist in pvp so go figure

False, without the grinds associated to gear up.
Without the ZERG going around.

Into games where everyone have equals chance to win or lost depending on skills and right choices.

Sarrs.4831:

Ario.8964:

I’ve described what the amulet system was intended to do but failed to do. Using my system instead promotes more diversity because it provides other options for many classes for builds instead of limiting them to having to “settle” for a stat amulet.

Provide a specific example of a build that will not work with a current stat amulet yet would be viable with another amulet which has at most one defensive stat, which has not already been banned.

It’s very rare that a stat spread is what makes or breaks a build. The entire thesis makes no sense because this is not how you write effective builds. Stats are, in almost all cases, the absolute last thing you consider while building, and in almost all cases there are good-enough stat spreads. If your build doesn’t work, it’s either because it’s a bad build from the get-go or its optimal amulet is one that’s already been banned.

If you think I’m wrong, present a build that doesn’t use a banned statlist, would be viable with that statlist, and which doesn’t have a reasonable alternative.

The first request you have is loaded since that is not the point I’m making (also, pretty much every stat combo has been hit that only has 1 defensive option and that’s the problem. Some builds like dps guard need defense and vitality but then need the 3 power buff stats which is why paladin is not optimal). But I will provide an example and give some reasoning behind it it just doesn’t fit all your criteria and won’t use an amulet.

Example: Bruiser type eles (Things like classic d/d ele). They don’t work with the amulet system because they need pretty much every stat for it. The amulet system limits them too much because they can’t take all their essential stats and then you have HoT powercreep but that’s for another thread. With the proposed system d/d ele could become meta again due to the amount of stats it would have to choose from and celestial being available in gear selection. With the current system, the closest you can get to a decent version of that is something like mender’s or sage’s. Both lacking significantly in areas necessary to the performance of a d/d ele.

Menem.4307:

I think decoupling the new utilities/heal/elites from specializations would open the game up to some build diversity.

With the old trait system all you’d have to do to have access to the espec stuff is sacrifice 1 trait in another line to get the minor trait that unlocks everything the espec has. That’s why I like this system is because it allows for different ways to invest that allow you to customize your build to the playstyle you want. Then after they balance out what needs to be you are looking at a constantly shifting meta due to players making counters to builds that become meta not metas brought by anet forcing them on you. Diversity opens up because people can try all sorts of combinations of stats and weapons and create a system where comfort with a build will be leagues more important than the build being a meta build.

Chaith.8256:

The only problem with free stat distribution is that it dumpsters the very fine balance among the top builds that exists currently.

Free stat distribution in PvP right now will look like:

Condi Warrior, Mesmer, Necro, these professions getting a huge boost, running a condition build with condition duration, condition damage, toughness, and vitality. Basically usher in the condipocalypse if they weren’t viable enough.

Balance is centered around having optimal power amulets (Marauder, Paladin) but artificially weakened condition builds due to non-optimal condition build amulets.

If ArenaNet worked some balance-split magic to compensate for stat efficiency power creep it’d be ok..

This, except for that last part about balance-split. Giving too much choice in stats just allows stupid OP builds that ruin wvw to invade and destroy pvp.

It also would be very hard to not overly complicate stats, as there has to be a drawback to putting all your stats into 1-2 categories or else you end up with builds that can 1-shot enemies from out of nowhere, or bunkers that are 80% healing power/toughness with a bit of vitality that never die to anything. Not to mention, this essentially opens the door on dire amulets, which would probably ruin pvp even more.

The #1 thing holding back build diversity isn’t amulets, it is power-creep that has made every “viable” build far better than the alternatives and reduces the ability to experiment.

If you want to see more builds, you need to start nerfing everything that HoT and the specialization update before it did. I mean, its so bad that previous “god walking amongst mere mortals” build – cele d/d ele – isn’t even good anymore, without receiving any nerfs.

BlackBeard.2873:

I mean, its so bad that previous “god walking amongst mere mortals” build – cele d/d ele – isn’t even good anymore, without receiving any nerfs.

Removing Celestial amulet not counted as a nerf?

This is the most build diversity this games ever had……so much greed from ppl these days

Lalainnia.3598:

This is the most build diversity this games ever had……so much greed from ppl these days

Eh, yeah there is a bit of truth to that. I would put having class balance as a more important goal to maintain than having build diversity, but they’re not the same thing.

Build diversity not better than ever, that’s class balance. If you don’t have one, it means that everyone plays one build which is 30% better than the second build, and not having the other means having every player who plays X class be completely terrible at PvP

If once we would have a reply from Anet

Ario.8964:

The first request you have is loaded since that is not the point I’m making (also, pretty much every stat combo has been hit that only has 1 defensive option and that’s the problem. Some builds like dps guard need defense and vitality but then need the 3 power buff stats which is why paladin is not optimal). But I will provide an example and give some reasoning behind it it just doesn’t fit all your criteria and won’t use an amulet.

It’s not loaded. The topic of the thread is increasing build diversity. If you think increasing the variety of stat amulets will help build diversity then surely you can think of a stat/build combination that will be brought into relevance through your technique.

I know every stat spread has, at most, one defensive stat (except for healing power, which seems to be internally considered as a half-and-half stat). That’s why I make that distinction, because it’s the internal ruleset.

Specifically on DPS guard, they are not unviable because they have a lack of defense and do not have access to the defenses that would make them viable; on the contrary they have a fairly decent set of defenses in Shield of Courage, Renewed Focus and their healing options. They are not considered meta because the tools they have access to are not relevant against skilled players. Traps get played around and meditations can’t carry the weight.

Ario.8964:

Example: Bruiser type eles (Things like classic d/d ele). They don’t work with the amulet system because they need pretty much every stat for it. The amulet system limits them too much because they can’t take all their essential stats and then you have HoT powercreep but that’s for another thread. With the proposed system d/d ele could become meta again due to the amount of stats it would have to choose from and celestial being available in gear selection. With the current system, the closest you can get to a decent version of that is something like mender’s or sage’s. Both lacking significantly in areas necessary to the performance of a d/d ele.

I’d love it if ANet built up core elementalists to fill their old fire blasting playstyle and role. It was a lot of fun.

But you don’t need to fix them by giving them an amulet that any number of other builds could use, absue, and dominate the meta. You fix Fire and Arcane.

sry sarss, just a question wouldn’t this tread be more fun if we had interaction with Anet. Everyone is reffering to Anet to do some but they are silent???

RedZebra.2345:

sry sarss, just a question wouldn’t this tread be more fun if we had interaction with Anet. Everyone is reffering to Anet to do some but they are silent???

Developer participation doesn’t encourage discussion. At best, it shapes it in a certain way; at worst, it cuts it short. So no, it wouldn’t be more fun.

Sarrs.4831:

Ario.8964:

The first request you have is loaded since that is not the point I’m making (also, pretty much every stat combo has been hit that only has 1 defensive option and that’s the problem. Some builds like dps guard need defense and vitality but then need the 3 power buff stats which is why paladin is not optimal). But I will provide an example and give some reasoning behind it it just doesn’t fit all your criteria and won’t use an amulet.

It’s not loaded. The topic of the thread is increasing build diversity. If you think increasing the variety of stat amulets will help build diversity then surely you can think of a stat/build combination that will be brought into relevance through your technique.

I know every stat spread has, at most, one defensive stat (except for healing power, which seems to be internally considered as a half-and-half stat). That’s why I make that distinction, because it’s the internal ruleset.

Specifically on DPS guard, they are not unviable because they have a lack of defense and do not have access to the defenses that would make them viable; on the contrary they have a fairly decent set of defenses in Shield of Courage, Renewed Focus and their healing options. They are not considered meta because the tools they have access to are not relevant against skilled players. Traps get played around and meditations can’t carry the weight.

Ario.8964:

Example: Bruiser type eles (Things like classic d/d ele). They don’t work with the amulet system because they need pretty much every stat for it. The amulet system limits them too much because they can’t take all their essential stats and then you have HoT powercreep but that’s for another thread. With the proposed system d/d ele could become meta again due to the amount of stats it would have to choose from and celestial being available in gear selection. With the current system, the closest you can get to a decent version of that is something like mender’s or sage’s. Both lacking significantly in areas necessary to the performance of a d/d ele.

I’d love it if ANet built up core elementalists to fill their old fire blasting playstyle and role. It was a lot of fun.

But you don’t need to fix them by giving them an amulet that any number of other builds could use, absue, and dominate the meta. You fix Fire and Arcane.

I don’t think you got my post at all. I’m not asking for more amulets, I’m asking for the removal of all amulets and have the ability to select gear stats from the stats currently in the game be implemented instead. The amulet system is trash imo and too narrow in what is able to be used competitively. Out of all the amulets in the game about 4 are being used in the current meta. I’d rather see people be able to select their stats freely from their gear with some caps on the max vit, tough, healing and that sort of stuff to prevent god mode builds and then you end up with a more diverse system because every build will be different as people take what they believe will be better suited to their playstyle.

Ario.8964:

I don’t think you got my post at all. I’m not asking for more amulets, I’m asking for the removal of all amulets and have the ability to select gear stats from the stats currently in the game be implemented instead. The amulet system is trash imo and too narrow in what is able to be used competitively. Out of all the amulets in the game about 4 are being used in the current meta. I’d rather see people be able to select their stats freely from their gear with some caps on the max vit, tough, healing and that sort of stuff to prevent god mode builds and then you end up with a more diverse system because every build will be different as people take what they believe will be better suited to their playstyle.

Then it seems you’re not getting my post either.

I’m not saying your idea is bad, good, or anything in between. I’m saying it doesn’t make a difference because stats are the lowest element in building.

First you pick your role.
Then you pick weapons and key utilities that fit that role.
Then you pick traits and traitlines that fit those weapons, your utilities, and your role.
Then you pick runes and sigils that synergize with those weapons, traitlines and traits.
Then you pick stats.

Sometimes it changes around (usually around how Precision interacts with your build), usually this is a rough idea of how it works. But it illustrates the point

If your build is not viable, it is more likely to be because you’ve picked the wrong weapon, you’ve picked the wrong utilities, you’ve picked the wrong traits, you’ve picked the wrong traitlines, you’ve picked the wrong runes, you’ve picked the wrong sigils

THEN

you worry about whether you’ve picked the wrong stats.

Trying to create build diversity through creating stat diversity is either:
A. A gross misunderstanding of effective build strategy
B. Trying to trick your way into getting banned statspreads back

If this were not the case, you would have absolutely no trouble giving me the name of a build that isn’t catered to by the amulets which would be viable with a new amulet that weren’t tanky enough to get instantly banned. But it is the case.

argh," y this the good thing " , “NO this is the one” , come on,what y wanna achieve endless debate ? Only 1 thing should be asked in pvp: response from Anet.

Ario.8964:

…amulets in the game about 4 are being used in the current meta.

Clerics, Menders, Carrion, Marauder, Paladin, Wanderer, Rabid for the meta Condition war I’ve seen.

Other than Marauder for the power damage carries, most every other profession’s meta build uses their own unique amulet.

Chaith.8256:

BlackBeard.2873:

I mean, its so bad that previous “god walking amongst mere mortals” build – cele d/d ele – isn’t even good anymore, without receiving any nerfs.

Removing Celestial amulet not counted as a nerf?

It wasn’t even good before they removed celestial, and I was addressing the situation in wvw where cele still exists. I should have been clearer, but in the hypothetical situation where there is free stat selection, cele is inherently there.

Regardless, even if cele was still around in pvp, d/d ele wouldn’t be able to keep up with scrapper, berserker, druid, chronomancer, or herald for a bruiser role (and herald is actually dps)!

BlackBeard.2873:

Chaith.8256:

BlackBeard.2873:

I mean, its so bad that previous “god walking amongst mere mortals” build – cele d/d ele – isn’t even good anymore, without receiving any nerfs.

Removing Celestial amulet not counted as a nerf?

It wasn’t even good before they removed celestial, and I was addressing the situation in wvw where cele still exists. I should have been clearer, but in the hypothetical situation where there is free stat selection, cele is inherently there.

Regardless, even if cele was still around in pvp, d/d ele wouldn’t be able to keep up with scrapper, berserker, druid, chronomancer, or herald for a bruiser role (and herald is actually dps)!

Some stats could be banned if they proved to be too much, but with caps placed on the max toughness, vit, healing you can have with diminished returns being put into place in pvp then hopefully we could prevent those issues from happening. Bunkers could still be a thing but they wouldn’t be as insane as people are making them out to be with this system.

Second part of your post is all balance related. D/D ele could keep up if vanilla wasn’t trash compared to every espec in the game. Hopefully soon we will see the core specs become relevant again in a balance perspective. But in the meantime, we may as well put systems in place to help encourage build diversity which on it’s own will allow the game to start healing itself. Then profession balance will finish said healing and create a very healthy setup for a competitive pvp game.

Chaith.8256:

Ario.8964:

…amulets in the game about 4 are being used in the current meta.

Clerics, Menders, Carrion, Marauder, Paladin, Wanderer, Rabid for the meta Condition war I’ve seen.

Other than Marauder for the power damage carries, most every other profession’s meta build uses their own unique amulet.

Well I dun goofed… that’s my bad Chaith.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Allowing people to choose stats for each gear piece individually would turn pvp into wvw

Look at wvw then think again if that would be wise. There are a lot of builds there that would disintegrate the meta and it is not even counting the condi cancer all through the fine tuning of stats….it could work since food and other op runes/sigils/ascended equipment wouldn’t exist in pvp so go figure

But dont you think that if they allowed free stat choices it would then make balancing between pvp and wvw much much easier. Right now ANET balances class skills/utilities using the artificially restrictive stat spreads of the Amulet system we have in place (plus the limited rune and sigil choices). This creates far too many “unintended” consequences in WvW.

Spartacus.3192:

But dont you think that if they allowed free stat choices it would then make balancing between pvp and wvw much much easier. Right now ANET balances class skills/utilities using the artificially restrictive stat spreads of the Amulet system we have in place (plus the limited rune and sigil choices). This creates far too many “unintended” consequences in WvW.

Flawed logic. They don’t really balance around wvw at all, except when it comes to things that really kill the game-mode (like stability changes). Most of the rediculousness of wvw receives 0 attention because “wvw isn’t supposed to be fair.”

However, the point that there are many cancerous specs in wvw that completely kill the fun of solo and small-scale combat due to being braindead easy to play, nearly impossible to kill, and quite effective at killing, provides a preview of what would happen with free choice in stats.

Spartacus.3192:

But dont you think that if they allowed free stat choices it would then make balancing between pvp and wvw much much easier. Right now ANET balances class skills/utilities using the artificially restrictive stat spreads of the Amulet system we have in place (plus the limited rune and sigil choices). This creates far too many “unintended” consequences in WvW.

you’re looking at it entirely the wrong way- you’ve got a solution and you’re looking for a problem

the major culprit are the elite specs, they are so much better than the core ones that you have to pick them in almost all builds, and also nearly all builds also pick the line that boosts the class mechanic discipline, trickery, ect(reminder that anet said that they wanted elites to change a play style of a class, not be a upgrade). This means that 2/3 lines are always the same so the diversity is non existent, so ether nerf them all so that they become a choice and not mandatory or make the class mechanic boosting line in to a ‘vanila’ elite spec so that we have to choose between 2:

foste.3098:

What if the trait line that enhances your profession mechanic was turned in to a elite specialization (discipline, trickery, soul reaping, beast mastery, illusions, tools, invocation, virtues, arcane). This way they can giving us some build diversity (before another expansion), you ether stick with the vanila elite specs (and therefor the base class name) and 2 other core ones or the HoT elite spec (and change to the different class name) and 2 other core ones.
Of course there would have to be some rebalancing done to make the ‘new’ vanila elite competitive in power to the HoT elite, but we can all agree that the game is in need of balance as is so it woild not be a big deal.

The reason i bring this idea up is because thees specializations are used in almost every build anyway (most warrior builds take discipline, every thief pick trickery, every guardian build pick up virtues, infact only mesmer, engineer and ele do not pick theirs currently) and by making them elite the players would be forced in to a choice, and non HoT players will have access to a competitive build. This is assuming they balance them according to the power level of HoT elite specs, and every future elite spec.

I have no problem if elites are better then full non elite builds. But further elite need to be in line with older ones and an elite should work with multiple other lines and combinations which means there must not be another mandatory line like ele water or warrior defence …

Ario.8964:

1) Remove all amulets from pvp and allow people to choose stats for each gear piece individually.

This would suffice. You can go full damage, but you can’t go full tank – and that is my biggest disappointment in spvp.

Toughness+vitality+healing power;
Toughness+vitality+power;
Power+healing power+toughness+vitality;
Expertise+condition damage+vitality;
Condition damage+healing power+vitality;
Condition damage+vitality+toughness;

And much more stats combinations would allow certain builds to be played, as those builds are useless in the current meta, because they can’t get stats they need.

I already suggested the spilt in weapons/armor/amulet
But with fixed stats/combinations in each, which will narrow down combinations.
As result you are more flexible, but can´t do something like pick three defensive stats.
And yes stats stack.

Weapon 1050:
Power
Condition damage
Precision
Ferocity

Armor 1050:
Vitality
Healing
Concentration
Precision

Amulet (560/560):
Power/Toughness
Power/Healing
Power/Ferocity
Power/Condition
Power/Expertise
Power/Vitality
Expertise/Toughness
Expertise/Vitality
Expertise/Healing
Ferocity/Healing
Ferocity/Toughness

Wolfric.9380:

I have no problem if elites are better then full non elite builds. But further elite need to be in line with older ones and an elite should work with multiple other lines and combinations which means there must not be another mandatory line like ele water or warrior defence …

I actually enjoy playing most of the vanilla stuff over the elite specs. So my view would differ from yours in that I want to see especs brought to down to vanilla level and then future especs not go above that level.

I do agree mandatory trait lines need to be looked at. Some effects need to be baseline (slightly nerfed versions though) and some lines need buffs.

Regon Phoenix.8215:

Ario.8964:

1) Remove all amulets from pvp and allow people to choose stats for each gear piece individually.

This would suffice. You can go full damage, but you can’t go full tank – and that is my biggest disappointment in spvp.

Toughness+vitality+healing power;
Toughness+vitality+power;
Power+healing power+toughness+vitality;
Expertise+condition damage+vitality;
Condition damage+healing power+vitality;
Condition damage+vitality+toughness;

And much more stats combinations would allow certain builds to be played, as those builds are useless in the current meta, because they can’t get stats they need.

Even with the system I proposed full tanks would still probably not exist. There would have to be caps on the amount of defensive stats you could take. Say maximum toughness is x, max vitality is x, and max healing is x. Now they would also have to be high enough to not allow people going for tank to be able to invest into heavy offense as well and break balance again.

Wolfric.9380:

I already suggested the spilt in weapons/armor/amulet
But with fixed stats/combinations in each, which will narrow down combinations.
As result you are more flexible, but can´t do something like pick three defensive stats.
And yes stats stack.

Weapon 1050:
Power
Condition damage
Precision
Ferocity

Armor 1050:
Vitality
Healing
Concentration
Precision

Amulet (560/560):
Power/Toughness
Power/Healing
Power/Ferocity
Power/Condition
Power/Expertise
Power/Vitality
Expertise/Toughness
Expertise/Vitality
Expertise/Healing
Ferocity/Healing
Ferocity/Toughness

Yeah something like that could work or they could give us the stats we have in wvw and then delete some combos that are too much. However I don’t think it’d be too much of a problem if the right caps were put in on defensive stats to prevent people from being immortal.