Guild Wars 2

The masses fight about the pros and cons of downed system, when what should be talked about is what the Downed state truly affects, the Rally system.

It is without a resounding doubt that most players are unable to swallow the hard pill called the downed state. A loud cry from most of the community beg for it to be removed, the other applaud its extremely innovative and fresh breath it has done to the online world of PVP. I respect both parties. This is not my game, i just play it.

However lets analyze some facts about downed state:

Downed state player has ability skill set different from players build and classes.
(e.g. Player has no utility knockback in skill slots but when downed, he has one ;
If one class utility (number 2 downed) is single target, and another is aoe.. it is imbalanced. enough said. If a mesmer can stealth and create a clone and blink in one ability, but a thief can only blink … it is imbalanced. enough said. if a necro has single target fear but a guard…… if an elementalist has no…. )

Downed state player hp is normalized and different from players build
(E.g. warrior hundred blades 3 second downs a player from 100% to downed. Warrior hundred blades again (hypothetically , ignore the 8 sec. cd) downed state glass cannon enemy, drops from 100% to 50 % … warrior scratches head wondering why it takes longer to kill an enemy in downed state than in up state)

The above examples , are NOT important but identify one thing, downed state is imbalanced. But here is whats the saddest part, it detracts the biggest issue of spvp, and wvw… Players are being RALLIED in your down state system.

You cannot introduce rally, without a counter , yes the fight is not over if he is downed, but amazingly, he can also be brought back to life WITHOUT rezzing. wait what?!

Biggest cause and effect this brings is : Proper tournament / wvw organized pvp team play is inhibited . (e.g. a smaller team that is more organized cannot circumvent a larger group even though utilizing better tactics. simple scenario, 3 v 5 , 3 players down 3 , going for last 2, one of their teammates drop, and gets pelted by 3 downed foes , enemy rallies, fight becomes 2 v 5) You cannot stomp because, of down state abilities, enemy kback or boon stripping your stability, their bodies are too far apart, etc etc.

The downed state is imbalanced yes, but your rally system, the direct result of downed state, is inhibiting competitive Player vs Player.

You have to introduce the demoralize system , a direct response to your rally system. Its effect is this. If in 1v1, no change, you drop to zero you are downed. In larger numbers, subsequent “down” beyond number 1, triggers the demoralize system for your team resulting into instant death to downed state member.

Example: 5v5, (team A vs Team , TeamA downs 1 member of TeamB , 5v4 (+1 downstate) , Team A downs 2nd member of Team B , 5v3) demoralize system kicks in, 1st down state player is immediately killed . (5v3 +1 downed state, 1 already dead)

Second effect of demoralize system: ALL downed ability 2 from every class is REPLACED with " Hopeful Rally" ability. 15 second cd, able to be used immediately on down , 3 second non- interruptible channeling ability. If teammate is downed during hopeful rally, you are not instantly killed.

Finally downed state players are no longer just mashing buttons or interrupting fools, but have to ACTIVELY watch the fight progression and ACTIVELY defend themselves for a rally, instead of praying for someone to be killed fully.

For PVE , it can be identical. Stop abusing players who kill themselves just to heal up again, and teach players to actively channel abilities to keep themselves alive in downed state , instead of just spamming 1 while monsters are hitting teammates.

TLDR: downed state imbalances is not the MAIN issue , Rally system is. Demoralize system is actually a Rally system that works backwards for the aggression team. Down State System is a TRULY amazing and innovative breath of fresh air.

One more change I’d like to add to the down state.

A less lame camera angle while in down state, can we get a far away zoom? instead of a close-up that makes me unable to see what’s going on…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/How-to-balance-fix-the-downed-state for my thoughts on the whole downed state debacle

I agree entirely. The downed state has way too many faults and rally/class downed state imbalances are a huge driving force.

I just wish we’d here a dev say why they think this will help esports. Its so counterintuitive.

I liked downed state.

The current system basically means co-ordinated teams are using stability to it’s full effectiveness, and it works and provides skillful play.

The only current imbalance is some downed states being better or worse than others.

i.e mesmer 6k rogue spawn (which is too strong) and ele downed state.

To fix these, all that would need to be done is reduce the CD on mist form so it could be casted instantaneously, and if the damage was reduced on the mesmer’s rogue to say, 3k, then downed state would be balanced enough in my eyes for tournament play.

You have to understand that a lof of the skills and cd’s you see and use every day are built around the current downed system, and if you change the downed system mechanics you’re changing the whole current meta game, and you’ll probably see a lot more dps and lot less stability builds. Where dps is fine alone, dps, reviving and downing adds a lot more skill than just pure damage.

“If in 1v1, no change, you drop to zero you are downed. In larger numbers, subsequent “down” beyond number 1, triggers the demoralize system for your team resulting into instant death to downed state member.”

So you’d recommend there be a change in downed state when there’s lots of players? But in 1v1 it stays the same? So you want 2 different downed state, and one specifically when there’s how many people like 2+ or 3+ or 4+?

What’s the point in having 2 different downed state in one tournament. It makes for no fluidity and isn’t transparent enough to formulate decent e-sports tournaments. You’re basically destroying current builds and turning everyone into dps monsters. It’d be who can kill the other players first, not who can revive/down.

Your proposed system is pretty poor compared to the current one in place. The latest system promotes skill in different area, not dps. If you want a pure dps game, I’d recommend something else.

Not two different down states in one tournament but a down state that isn’t broken in big group battles.

The down state is great but as far as I’m concerned the rally is broken. No one should get downed and rally with 50% health three times in 5 seconds because some one is constantly dying. It’s “demoralizing”.

I actually think you’d see more issues in 1v1s with downed states.

If both players are downed in 1v1 arena, it’ll come down to who’s downstate is more effective. Rangers would probably win the majority with the pet res, and ele woudl be suprising in 1v1 downed state battles also with mist making you 75% full hp.

Mesmer rogue would still be silly in this state also as you physically can’t rally even if you port away, especially not with the 6k hit every 10 seconds.

Thinking about it, if there were 1v1 arena’s, downstated would be pretty kittened up.

Hsulf.9370:

I liked downed state.

The current system basically means co-ordinated teams are using stability to it’s full effectiveness, and it works and provides skillful play.

The only current imbalance is some downed states being better or worse than others.

i.e mesmer 6k rogue spawn (which is too strong) and ele downed state.

To fix these, all that would need to be done is reduce the CD on mist form so it could be casted instantaneously, and if the damage was reduced on the mesmer’s rogue to say, 3k, then downed state would be balanced enough in my eyes for tournament play.

You have to understand that a lof of the skills and cd’s you see and use every day are built around the current downed system, and if you change the downed system mechanics you’re changing the whole current meta game, and you’ll probably see a lot more dps and lot less stability builds. Where dps is fine alone, dps, reviving and downing adds a lot more skill than just pure damage.

“If in 1v1, no change, you drop to zero you are downed. In larger numbers, subsequent “down” beyond number 1, triggers the demoralize system for your team resulting into instant death to downed state member.”

So you’d recommend there be a change in downed state when there’s lots of players? But in 1v1 it stays the same? So you want 2 different downed state, and one specifically when there’s how many people like 2+ or 3+ or 4+?

What’s the point in having 2 different downed state in one tournament. It makes for no fluidity and isn’t transparent enough to formulate decent e-sports tournaments. You’re basically destroying current builds and turning everyone into dps monsters. It’d be who can kill the other players first, not who can revive/down.

Your proposed system is pretty poor compared to the current one in place. The latest system promotes skill in different area, not dps. If you want a pure dps game, I’d recommend something else.

My question is why did you let them get their rouge phantasm up in the first place. They have a nifty little red arrow above them that tells you the real one. Kill them before they can use it. Its on a long timer before it is able to be used.

Zachariel.5463:

My question is why did you let them get their rouge phantasm up in the first place. They have a nifty little red arrow above them that tells you the real one. Kill them before they can use it. Its on a long timer before it is able to be used.

You are aware mesmers can port right which gives them the time necessary to cast the rogue? You’re also aware that no one else can do that much damage in a downed state? And yes I’m fully aware when the mesmer “ports” the second one is the real one. The latter should be common knowlege by now.

Please, if you think that ability is remotely balanced in comparrison to an elementalists downed state, for example, I think you’re looking through rose tinted classes and play a mesmer.

I will add the rogue isn’t so bad in team fights, it’s just 1v1 scenarios on points which can make that extra 6k damage very fustrating.

Remember guys, downed state, fine or not, ultimately is not our decision to have keep or gone. It is truly innovative, albeit broken.

The issue like some of you actually realize is the combination of a broken down state AND more importantly RALLY , that is what we as a community need to draw the dev’s attention too !

Zachariel, like you understand downed state when faced against a coordinated team , can utilize stability, and other forms of tactics to counter certain issues.

Here is some food for thought , these issues would NOT exist if downed state is not even present.

You cannot play rock paper scissors and say ok no paper , and you play on team rock . The scissors will start whining..

Hsulf (stupid reply button is random again), Reason I asked is because that timer for the Rogue is can be counted as 1 and a half clones on downed. Also should that mesmer be lucky enough to get it off…turn around and kill it. There is a delay with this one before it attacks and does more damage if it is facing the players back. It also has the same health of the beserker (so one or two hits kills it). Yes that is prob enough time for the mesmer to get reinforcements but that is another mechanic. Kill the mesmer or delay you long enough that you miss your chance. Nothing is linear in this game.

And to answer your accusation, yes I play a mesmer, as well as a Necro, Thief, Guardian, Elementalist, and Warrior (avoid pvp with my ranger). If I want to learn to counter a class, the best way is to play it and learn.

It’s just a little too strong mate that’s all. Not only do mesmers get a mini port away they get a high dps move also, which yes I can avoid, or turn around so it does less damage, but if I down you on 3k health I’m going to have to go heal up depending in cd’s to finish you, that’s not counting the other pahnatsms you have up at the same time as the rogue.

If someone is downed their dps should be minimal IMO. Mesmers arguably with a couple of phantasms up, as long as phantasm build, will do just as much dmg if downed than up, which isn’t the way it should be.

Who knows, maybe they leave mesmer with the 6k rogue, just seems silly their dps is 100% more than any other class in that state, and they have a port.

Less of an accusation mate, didn’t want it to come across too harshly, just I could tell you played mesmer defending an ability which is definitely too strong at the moment. I do agree your previous down mechanic was awful in beta. But now it’s on the op side dmg wise at least.

Kazzuki.5704:

Zachariel, like you understand downed state when faced against a coordinated team , can utilize stability, and other forms of tactics to counter certain issues.

Here is some food for thought , these issues would NOT exist if downed state is not even present.

You cannot play rock paper scissors and say ok no paper , and you play on team rock . The scissors will start whining..

Yay reply button is working again…

Downed state is here to stay..and I agree with people when they complain that Ele def needs a better downed state.

From reading many people’s posts about downed state (and yes sadly I have read them all from the day they opened the forums) they dislike how some classes have different things and wish it to be streamlined and linear. Like I’ve already said, this game is anything but linear. Each of the downed states (minus ele’s as theirs makes me want to scream in frustration when i play them) has been molded around their class. Some have more utility then others. Take mesmers for instance. If you pay enough attn you can know which one is real, and can spawn a rogue that if they back stab you hit pretty hard but die fast. Warriors…if you don’t stomp them fast enough they will get up and all that time they were throwing rocks at you lowering your health makes it easier to kill you before you can kill them (granted most the time I never made it to the point where i can consistently use that skill as I tend to avoid running off on my own as this is a team play game).

Now I understand peoples frustration as in every other game, you down a player they are dead well not in this game. Its another mechanic that you have to take into account. Some put their builds around the downed system as there is a trait that allows you to do 50% more damage while downed (which will give you those 6k backstabbing phantasms) or when I run my mesmer I go as a combat medic and trait to have a feedback bubble when rezing someone.

Hsulf.9370:

It’s just a little too strong mate that’s all. Not only do mesmers get a mini port away they get a high dps move also, which yes I can avoid, or turn around so it does less damage, but if I down you on 3k health I’m going to have to go heal up depending in cd’s to finish you, that’s not counting the other pahnatsms you have up at the same time as the rogue.

If someone is downed their dps should be minimal IMO. Mesmers arguably with a couple of phantasms up, as long as phantasm build, will do just as much dmg if downed than up, which isn’t the way it should be.

Who knows, maybe they leave mesmer with the 6k rogue, just seems silly their dps is 100% more than any other class in that state, and they have a port.

Less of an accusation mate, didn’t want it to come across too harshly, just I could tell you played mesmer defending an ability which is definitely too strong at the moment. I do agree your previous down mechanic was awful in beta. But now it’s on the op side dmg wise at least.

The only way they got that 6k (or should have gotten it) was from the increase 50% damage while downed trait. The phantasm damage boost should not affect this phantasm in my opinion (as that would be double dipping a bit) if it does and to my knowledge it doesn’t but have no consistent way to check. Yes they have a port but its a delay tactic, do you kill that mesmer or do you go cap that point they had their happpy kitty on before you came along and decided to be the school yard bully? What is the higher priority. It takes longer for that mesmer to res himself than it does for you to cap a point.

Zachariel.5463:

The only way they got that 6k (or should have gotten it) was from the increase 50% damage while downed trait. The phantasm damage boost should not affect this phantasm in my opinion

The extra damage is not using the downed trait but it only comes from phantasm specd mesmers, so it’s the opposite to this quote above. The 5 – 6k is standard on toughness specd light armour users, from phantasm specd mesmers and has been since bw3.

The rogue does double damage from behind, + phantasm spec = 6k.

Please compare this to the other classes dps while downed and state how it’s fair, then I may see your point of view objectively.

Hsulf.9370:

Zachariel.5463:

The only way they got that 6k (or should have gotten it) was from the increase 50% damage while downed trait. The phantasm damage boost should not affect this phantasm in my opinion

The extra damage is not using the downed trait but it only comes from phantasm specd mesmers, so it’s the opposite to this quote above. The 5 – 6k is standard on toughness specd light cloth users, from phantasm specd mesmers and has been since bw3.

Hmm, never have seen this phantasm do that much damage. 4k yes…6k no

I’d actually be happy with a range of 3-4k.

But still, if you put every class in a downed state and attacked one person, and you put a mesmer in a downed state by itself attacking one person, I’m pretty sure the mesmer + rogue would win dps wise vs all the other classes by himself in a dps race. Hell this isn’t practical but it’s proving a point and this is why it needs a change.

It dissapeared again….

@Hsulf

You also have to take into account if the player they sent the rogue after was a glass cannon build or a tanky build. I think on average it probbably does do 3-4k but like all the phantasms it has the ability to crit and it does do more damage when facing a players back. But is also the easiest to kill of the phantasms.

Hell I had one die from a jump and butflop from a warrior (number 2 sword ability). I told him in say that if he wanted a kitten all he had to do was ask.

I am not a fan of this suggestion. Rally in and of itself is not the problem, it even makes sense that you rally.

The problem is that you can completely beat a team 4 on 4, get three of them downed and one of you downed, but because their team can delay your finishing longer they can finish your one and despite it all you now have a 4 on 3 with you on the losing end of it. IMO, only one person should rally for a defeat and successive downs should add a considerably higher penalty.

Does it not feel ironic that you can make a decision to not help a teammate that has been downed, yet he can magically resurrect? Yet there is no reverse action that causes him to die ?

Rally system is the direct cause why many fights in WvW results in a disgusting mass zerg affair which prevents smaller groups from roaming , simply because one cannot overcome the blaring disadvantage of a system that gives absolute advantage to zerging.

Well, if your discussion is going to be over WvWvW, then you ought to go to that forum section and talk about it there.

As to your question, I do not find that the least bit ironic. It makes sense, he fights an enemy to the bitter end, his enemy dies, and you get a burst of adrenaline that pushes you through. Makes sense to me. And why would there be a reverse action? An instant death button? That sounds terrible.

GW2 doesn’t have an attrition resource like many other games have. So because of this, health takes on that role. As you fight, your ability is to manage your hp as if it were energy. Just like a game, when your energy runs down and you’re helpless, you’re not quite dead yet. You generally have an hp bar that protects you a little bit before death. Since that doesn’t exist, it makes perfect sense that there is a rally system to protect you from running dead on energy.

I agree that an entire team rallying off of one kill is excessive, however, the request for a “reverse action” is absurd.

Like I said before, they need to penalize multiple down states more heavily and switch to only one person being rallied off a kill. Preferably whoever has been downed the longest.

Diage, i understand where you are coming from , but I cannot agree that if you feel the notion of passively being able to resurrect teammates without direct action , without an opposing reaction .. is balance . And, if this viewed is shared by the creators , then the stance of which guild wars 2 development team means to take is already biased.

If we dont draw it in the context of fighting, lets say a team game of dodgeball , but say if a member gets hit, he goes into a penalty game not dead and requires another ball hit to be out. All is fair so far. Heres the kicker , if at ANY point any member of the opposing team is out , everyone in the penalty box is saved. But on the contrary, if you penalty box the whole of the enemy team already , but the people from the penalty box are still shooting one of your team and successfully double out him, your entire team revives. At NO punishing cost. Food for thought.

I did not mean to bring in WvW , but as firm believer of “perceived balance”, i feel it is stupid to be selective of where the pvp lies and not the whole picture. We play Guild wars 2, not guild wars spvp. 5v5 also happens in WvW… so does capping points.

If you are feeling an adrenaline rush because u downed the enemy, you should feel demoralize as more and more of your teammates are being downed no? By argueing only about blaring imbalances of downed state , or introducing flimsy only one person gets rallied(how do they even choose? /random100? oh u died first? wait your the team leader? if your bunker spec u rez first? no you have the most points so far, you rez first…etc), how do you then draw your conclusion to a plausible fix .

Introducing Balance, one needs to also enter it in a way that does not belay the current meta game format system, and makes plausible sense to the community. That is also why balancing is tricky, and most developers take the easy way out like whackamole nerfing. I believe a company like arenanet who takes time to even have extremely beautiful sky textures, understands this , but unfortunately it can be clearly seen that there is some level of pride at hand in the baby called downed state.

It is often the voice of the community that muscles the upper brass of a company to make changes, albeit rudely , but sometimes i feel a clear pointed debate with distinct points can spin some amazing ideas that may be taken and created into something tangible for everyone.

Diage if your baseline is to write me off, to tell me go to another forum, then do not reply more , for i am not here to force points but am trying hard to create a rich post of viewpoints from the community that one day might affect the game we all play and love, guild wars 2. But i feel you are one of the few that truly understand that there is something wrong with the rallying in pvp, and i respect that truly. What can we do to help arenanet , my friends?!

Heh, aggressive response.

Anyways, first off, being demoralized does not go to death.

Your response with dodgeball is interesting because it plays into my suggestion more heavily. In dodgeball, you get hit, you go out. However, if a teammate catches a ball, the first one out gets to come back on. That is exactly my suggestion. Simply limit the number of people who can rally to one per death.

The advantage of this is it still maintains the same mentality and game play without creating a dramatic overpowered shift because one team was able to stomp just one person and get their whole team back. Further, penalizing repeat downs is also beneficial since it will help to prevent builds that are focused around constantly rezzing people (I understand that there is already a mechanic that penalizes you for repeat downs, I propose making that more severe.)

In contrast to your idea, it is considerably simpler and makes logical sense. To argue that someone should immediately die because they are demoralized is as strong of an argument as mine about adrenaline. And even if they were to choose which to fix, in implementation, yours requires a whole new system be implemented.

Whether this was their intention or not, the downed state is a magnificent beast in its own right. There is no energy in this game, so we end up losing the attrition factor that energy usually brings with it. It was instead replaced with cooldowns. The consequence of this was the loss of any form of “backup.” When you had energy as your reserve, you were able to survive strongly with energy, as soon as you ran out, you were not dead, you simply didn’t have any energy. You are now very easily killed, but not really dead. To me, the introduction of the self heal, the basic auto attack, and large health pools give way to the attrition factor in GW2 being the health bar. For this to work out best, we need a “fail safe,” a second chance to fall back on when you’ve taken heavy pressure and your resource is gone. In convention, it was your health bar, in here it is downed state. I love this way of looking at it and puts downed state and their entire game on an interesting position above most other games. Unforunately, because of capture points and short fights, we don’t get to see what truly could of been in regards to health being the primary attrition factor it could have been.

Point being, it isn’t right for you to take that away from other players based on their poor decisions. It is an important part in the process of victory and defeat. I agree whole-heartedly that an entire team rallying off of one kill is insane at the least, but to throw someone into instant death as an attempt to balance it is just as insane.