Guild Wars 2

People posting doesn’t mean anything…

There are a good number of people who monitor and posts of the forums hoping for things to be better and trying to contribute to proper growth. Yet don’t even play right now.

The problem with PvP is that there is no metagame . There are too many do it all builds with slight variation . Why are MOBAs so successful ? There is a clear division of roles of heroes that have clear advantages and weaknesses .

Here you have a warrior who tanks , does damage , is fast , stuns , all at the same time …. This is a problem .
The casters are spamm spamm spamm spamm spamm ( cough necro cough ) .
The scepter/dagger elemental is fun to watch as it requires a solid combo to perform its kill move , but thieves are not fun to either watch or play against as stealth is boring in this game .
Rangers , you cant control the class ability , and everything is so weak when it comes to offense that you are forced to play a bunker passive role with pew pew dodge pew pew ( and i play ranger and this is why i quit PvP ) , and never recieves attention like warriors or other classes do to fix the gameplay and options issue . At least the guard bunker is very cool to watch with its timed knockdowns and blocks .
There are no real support classes !!.

And finally , the biggest problem is the artificial nature of the PvP mode . You are forced to capture circles this severely limiting innate class advantages . prime example : thief design is godmode in WvW because of innate mobility and the ability to choose fights , but …. either OP or bleh in pvp ( but this is due to balance not deign ) .

Bottom line : bad builds , artificially limited mode balance spilling into other gameplay areas and no guts to make significant changes to a very badly designed class concept .

Chokolata.1870:

And finally , the biggest problem is the artificial nature of the PvP mode . You are forced to capture circles this severely limiting innate class advantages . prime example : thief design is godmode in WvW because of innate mobility and the ability to choose fights , but …. either OP or bleh in pvp ( but this is due to balance not deign ) .

Bottom line : bad builds , artificially limited mode balance spilling into other gameplay areas and no guts to make significant changes to a very badly designed class concept .

This ^

Conquest mode leads to a very unnatural playstile, forcing into some builds that lead to poor diversity.
spvp and wvw roaming have completely different builds, and that’s fine being two completely different things. If we had some different game modes (i’ll never stop saying that, give us deathmatch, killing for killing’s sake please) we would have a very different game. Relatively small maps would completely kill strategy while being able to focus on something different than 1 close rest mid gg hold on for 10 minutes.

We will never be an esport if we lack these simple basics. Anet should really put some more people working on different game modes, i know the next monday a blog post will be done about it and i can’t wait to see how anet addresses this problem, but i sadly have to say that after more than a year of pvp, i’m not that optimistic..

gesho.9468:

it is, but is it good pvp?

(for LoL)

The day anybody makes such a big play in GW2 is the day we might be moving on towards “esports”. GW2 has some combat going for it but thats all, the game format is linear and boring with little creativity, the team play of GW2 is incredibly lacking and revolves more around solo players doing solo things in proximity of allies.

It is not just rewards people want, rewards are a very “MMO” player perspective approach. Pvpers play for fame and for competition. The only reward I need to play competitively is the recognition received for doing amazing things.

Yes, GW1 was rewarding for tournaments, but somewhere after getting 25,000 reward points I probably didnt care anymore, I continued to play for the high of winning a monthly tournament and the kitten that came along with it knowing that I competed against excellent players and outsmarted them.

GW2 simply needed a better game mode that was not conquest, the primary objective needed to be more complex with more freedom and not linear. It then needed proper tournament structure, because at the end of the day, if you are a top player and you care about ladder rank you are doing it wrong. Ladders never truly evaluate player skill, its all about the tournaments, but if a game does not even have tournaments then nobody cares about it from a competitive aspect. 3rd party tournaments are cool but they needed to be official and structured like in GW1, or the MOBA Seasons we often see. And finally, balance. Could have been significantly better, day in day out I read about how “they only won because they had more spam builds” and if this is the biggest analysis of a top tier PAX qualifier match, then the game is broken.

Romek.4201:

No Milo your are wrong. Most people left because its not rewarding, no incentives and no targets to go for.
Just be in a leaderbaord to be there is not enough and noone play just to play it because thats why it get boring ya know?

And the fact that there is only one game mode and that we get new “content” (maps) once every blue moon.

I wouldn’t call a game with its tournament queues taking 2-3 minutes on average as “dead”.
Maybe you could expect a higher player base and a higher pool of players for the match making system to draw from, but it’s far from “dead”.
As far as the rewards go, most of the PvPers don’t do it for the rewards but because it is the most amusing content in the game for us.
Of course, I’d be happy with a more rewarding PvP. The fact that we can now purchase toxic spores with glory means that Anet is working toward it.
Also, even though some people in this thread seem to think of tournaments as “casual”, it is the most intimidating part of the game for most people.

QL just got 14k viewers for a 14 year old game @ dreamhack finals.. BUT ESPORTS BRAH

the downfall began with the necrobuff – most competive players left short time after this cause it was not more fun to play this game

and after this they even made something more op and brainless – the warrior

atm we have a game noone rly have fun anymore and until arenanet step up and revert this changes the downfall will not stop

just tried lol. cant imagine sone going to lol after gw2.

Romek.4201:

the downfall began with the necrobuff – most competive players left short time after this cause it was not more fun to play this game

and after this they even made something more op and brainless – the warrior

atm we have a game noone rly have fun anymore and until arenanet step up and revert this changes the downfall will not stop

I kinda agree with this assessment although I don’t think of this as the main reason.
As a necromancer, I was somewhat happier with the pre-buff necros than their current state. What we asked for was mostly survivability and attrition, but Anet gave us a nasty condition burst instead!
And to fix the warrior, they went completely the opposite of their policy by making those dudes one of the best anti-condition classes in PvP!
And with rangers came the petting zoo…! No strings attached.
Power creep after power creep.

Even though these haven’t stopped most of us from pursuing our interest in PvP, but it has surely caused a lot of frustration.

Romek.4201:

No Milo your are wrong. Most people left because its not rewarding, no incentives and no targets to go for.
Just be in a leaderbaord to be there is not enough and noone play just to play it because thats why it get boring ya know?

I quit over a year ago and stumbled on this post checking back to see if anything had changed. Milo is right, I and all of my friends (roughly two dozen) quit because it was not fun, not because it was unrewarding.

I had hoped by now there would of been some more modes (TDM, Arena, Duels) other than conquest, which is terrible. Clearly this game is the same as i left it.

/bye

OK GUISE LISSEN

- STOP WRITE POST COS LOT PAGES + PPL NNED TO CALM DOWN
-LISSEN GOODE

Jackie.1829:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZnfp0Xqnb8

(for LoL)
The day anybody makes such a big play in GW2 is the day we might be moving on towards “esports”.

remove hype, hugging, tournament backdrop and cameras (that is, leave pvp part of it) and you’ll realize you’ve seen just as exciting games in gw2 many times. have you gotten beaten at 498 points by enemy rushing to the boss? or 499-499 with three contested points being settled on two downed states throwing junk at each other?

80k twitch view got many blinded for no good reason. i’ll be stretching some, but LOL to me seems like 2d flat game, slow enough to have a feel of pixilated chess turn based game, where most of expertise is memorizing skills of various heroes. some might call this skill, id call it a grind. pvp skills is something else imo.

How was the sPvP better in GW2 a year ago than it is now?
Just because a bunch of high-end teams matched up against each-other and everybody else were so scared to even try the tournaments because the results were usually so ridiculous that you couldn’t even learn anything from it.
Now, there are still lots of AAA match ups AND there are opportunities for people in the mid+ tiers to compete against each-other and improve until they can reach higher tiers.
Previously, tournaments for B and C players were nothing but frustration because you can hardly learn anything if you only face teams worlds better than you. Learning is gradual. Now GW2 gives everyone the chance to compete against same-level players and improve gradually until they reach and compete against the masters when they are almost ready.

I doubt 5 bunker-teams running around do make anything better in this game. Besides that it’s completely boring, doesn’t require any skill and contains no challenge, it is the worst meta this game ever had.
The competition is not existing, because nearly all teams refuse to play these braindead cheesy-builds, which completely faceroll everything outside the meta.

The meta created an anti-fun-pvp since the necro-patch. A-Net thought buffing classes to an insane level makes it fun. It didn’t. Everything left in this game is spam. Either is it dodging 24/7 due to permanent-vigor or pressing all your weapon-skills, because there is no energy-management and no consequences of not hitting them/using them correctly.

However, A-Net still want to make the game as easy as possible, but don’t get the difference between skill-floor and skill-ceiling.

Ye, kinda is dead right now..

But wait we have the ELS tournaments every week with 300 viewers, 100-500 matches and a lot of gems…..

LOL

Still meta is spammy and horrible, still a lot of 4v5, still no real competition..

Don’t worry people they are working on it.

We need more hugging to make GW2 an legit esport..
I would love to see Denial Esports win the finals and Helseth hug Vanish..

This is esport material…

Baldric.6781:

Arena.net would be really stupid if it used most of its resources to fix spvp. Yeah, that seems a good plan, let’s put money in pvp so we can try to lure some pvper’s back, players that had lost our trust. So maybe we can have a decent playerbase and maybe we can become an esport and maybe get some of the money invested in fixing spvp back…
Or they could release more pve content and make money. A hard choice as you can see..

And by the way there is rewards in spvp, and pve players farmed a lot of those rewads, achievements and ranks, and they didn’t become spvp players did they ? Yeah, that’s the thing, most pve players don’t like pvp, it’s trying to feed meat to a rabbit, it doesn’t work.

There is no way this game will be anything more than a sidekick for pve, get over with it, if u invested a lot of time in this, well man, kitten happens in life and it could be a lot worse.

They are probably scared of that scenario, so they don’t dedicate more resources to it, thinking it’d be a black hole anyway. It’s a vicious circle. Which is why the right approach to PvP reform isn’t a gradual improvement process spread over years, but a loudly and widely broadcasted revolution of this whole aspect of the game. This is the only way how they could hope to rebuild trust. Not just with hardcore PvPers, who “have left anyway”, but even within your (more casual) community that is still actually playing.
Me for example, someone who is still relatively active in a different domain of the game (WvW), has lost every single scrap of trust I had in ANet to deliver an engaging sPvP experience, not for ideological reasons, I simply don’t mentally care anymore. I’m visiting these subforums on a monthly basis, let alone keep updated about PvP-centric news. Some very gradual, specific improvements and additions just fly over people’s heads.

You need oomph. You need publicity. A grand re-release just works. Final Fantasy and tons of other MMO got successfully re-released after much criticism and disappointing numbers. We just need something like that for the PvP-side of things with GW2.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The meta created an anti-fun-pvp since the necro-patch. A-Net thought buffing classes to an insane level makes it fun. It didn’t. Everything left in this game is spam. Either is it dodging 24/7 due to permanent-vigor or pressing all your weapon-skills, because there is no energy-management and no consequences of not hitting them/using them correctly.

However, A-Net still want to make the game as easy as possible, but don’t get the difference between skill-floor and skill-ceiling.

Right on. The time of balance by buffing has passed, it’s time to bring things down to a sane level.

Skill floor / skill ceiling is an issue that has bugged me for the longest time now. Anet talks a good game and gives the impression that they want to promote active gameplay based on tactical and active skill use. You know, “easy to access, hard to master” type of stuff. Yet what ends up happening is that they introduce builds like spirit ranger and hambow warrior, which, to be generous, require the motor skill of a sedated moose to master. They are zero-depth builds with a minuscule skill ceiling, which is not exactly appealing to players with a competitive mindset. Or for anyone else for that matter, judging by the decline of the PvP population on EU at least.

Still, I’ll be a silly optimist and say that based on the preview, the December 10th patch takes things in the right direction. Diamond skin is a glaring eyesore, but here’s hoping it does not go through in its preview state. However, the past year has shown that there’s often a huge disconnect between what Anet says and what Anet ends up doing. So I’m not holding my breath until the patch is actually here and genuinely takes the game in a more skill-based direction.

gesho.9468:

just tried lol. cant imagine sone going to lol after gw2.

Well, i used to a strong gw2 supporter, really, it was like the dream game for me (at its early times), and i used to dislike mobas alot, actually i still dont like moba’s playstyle…. yet…. i quit gw2 like a month ago and i’m playing LoL now :|

cuge.5398:

Well, i used to a strong gw2 supporter, really, it was like the dream game for me (at its early times), and i used to dislike mobas alot, actually i still dont like moba’s playstyle…. yet…. i quit gw2 like a month ago and i’m playing LoL now :|

good luck to you. i posted my lol impressions above

80k twitch view got many blinded for no good reason. i’ll be stretching some, but LOL to me seems like 2d flat game, slow enough to have a feel of pixilated chess turn based game, where most of expertise is memorizing skills of various heroes. some might call this skill, id call it a grind. pvp skills is something else imo.

Aereniel.7356:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The meta created an anti-fun-pvp since the necro-patch. A-Net thought buffing classes to an insane level makes it fun. It didn’t. Everything left in this game is spam. Either is it dodging 24/7 due to permanent-vigor or pressing all your weapon-skills, because there is no energy-management and no consequences of not hitting them/using them correctly.

However, A-Net still want to make the game as easy as possible, but don’t get the difference between skill-floor and skill-ceiling.

Right on. The time of balance by buffing has passed, it’s time to bring things down to a sane level.

Skill floor / skill ceiling is an issue that has bugged me for the longest time now. Anet talks a good game and gives the impression that they want to promote active gameplay based on tactical and active skill use. You know, “easy to access, hard to master” type of stuff. Yet what ends up happening is that they introduce builds like spirit ranger and hambow warrior, which, to be generous, require the motor skill of a sedated moose to master. They are zero-depth builds with a minuscule skill ceiling, which is not exactly appealing to players with a competitive mindset. Or for anyone else for that matter, judging by the decline of the PvP population on EU at least.

Still, I’ll be a silly optimist and say that based on the preview, the December 10th patch takes things in the right direction. Diamond skin is a glaring eyesore, but here’s hoping it does not go through in its preview state. However, the past year has shown that there’s often a huge disconnect between what Anet says and what Anet ends up doing. So I’m not holding my breath until the patch is actually here and genuinely takes the game in a more skill-based direction.

They wont bring things down at all dude. All they do is listen to the forums badies on the class forums. The “Anet hates my class!” idiots. So what happened with their balance post will happen again. They make suggestions including nerfing vigor and things. Baddies QQ, anet reverses the balancing.

This game is in a terrible state because of listening to bad players on the forums who dont understand the game enough to see beyond some trait they are using being nerfed.

gesho.9468:

cuge.5398:

Well, i used to a strong gw2 supporter, really, it was like the dream game for me (at its early times), and i used to dislike mobas alot, actually i still dont like moba’s playstyle…. yet…. i quit gw2 like a month ago and i’m playing LoL now :|

good luck to you. i posted my lol impressions above

80k twitch view got many blinded for no good reason. i’ll be stretching some, but LOL to me seems like 2d flat game, slow enough to have a feel of pixilated chess turn based game, where most of expertise is memorizing skills of various heroes. some might call this skill, id call it a grind. pvp skills is something else imo.

I would have agree with you a month ago, but now i must say that sadly this games let players prove much more skill than gw2, mainly situation awareness and poistioning, what i dont like is that there isnt a real teamfight, its more like a teamgank.
But still…. sadly i think there isnt any mmo with a good pvp atm.

dont think its because they care bout bad players. Its mor about they dont have the resources or the balls to split spvp complete from wvw and pve.

They cant just nerf a class now – the outcry would be loud in wvw or pve.

look on this wvw build from all this wannabe GvG guild they all use hammermonkeys and guardians + whatever. And everything bunkerish

they cant nerf this – ppl would die like flies in wvw when face the aoe from next zerg

they have to split it – because this balancing around 3 complete different gamemodes is stupid.

What Anet should avoid is power creeps… but they have failed so far trying to prevent that. The balance currently doesn’t need any buffs. You want to offer build variety? Lower the effectiveness of the currently glaringly OP stuff and they will be on par with the rest. Then we’ll have build variety.
Currently Anet has fallen into a vicious loop:

1. skill A is too powerful…
2. buff skill B to counter…
3. skill B got too powerful…
4. buff skill C to compensate…
5. skill C got too powerful…
6. buff skill A more to compensate… back to 1

It’s certainly not as simple as this but you get the picture.

gesho.9468:

remove hype, hugging, tournament backdrop and cameras (that is, leave pvp part of it) and you’ll realize you’ve seen just as exciting games in gw2 many times. have you gotten beaten at 498 points by enemy rushing to the boss? or 499-499 with three contested points being settled on two downed states throwing junk at each other?

Yea, cause throwing junk at each other to win a match is the epitome of big plays. Hey, dw, you cant understand what you cannot do. Ignorance is bliss.

But if you really understand tpvp, you know that every action executed is simply the most logical thing to do. 450-250? Okay you know you need to contest all 3 nodes, there is no alternative. The node play is always straight forward, either you are better at the combat so you win, or you are worse so you lose. Sometimes a team is tactically better but usually its straight forward.

So yes, while I am sure GW2 tpvp games have come “close” before and been “tense” that was not what I was pointing out. What I was pointing out was a big play, a display of intelligence and execution that turns around a match entirely. Something you will never get in tpvp, even if a player wins a 1v2 to secure a match, that wasnt “intelligent” it was just better combat execution. There is a significant difference between being smart and being good. To play GW2 you do not need to be smart, just good at your class then run to the obvious nodes. There is little capacity to outsmart the enemy which is why by extension this games skill cap was not high enough to develop into esports.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

So basically, in my point of view the most important thing is to reward PvP to attract more players. It would be perfect if you could earn a lil bit more than spending your time in PvE if you win a lot. Than so much more people would start playing PvP and learn to love it. But Anet purely focuses on PvE, scared of loosing their playerbase over there. So PvP will stay that edge appearance of GW2. It will never become a famous esport title, because it never had the chance to. The combatsystem and the game mode(without admitting there should be more) has everthing it needs to have to become large, but the whole periphery around it is some of the worst in gaming history. :-(

I’ll argue the game mode is what held GW2 Arena back the most. Basically the one and only mode, which is of questionable popularity. Along with it’s predecessor having more than the single game mode. I was part of the crowd that expected GW1 game modes with GW2 combat system.

Gw2 has some game mechanics that are horrific for the competitive atmosphere.

Lots of passive crap, the spammability of evades/condi/boons/everything, AIs and lack of skillful micromanaging, AoEs, and stealthing (no matter what people say in response on the forums, I feel the stealthing mechanics in this game are atrocious and unbalanced).

Then animations and the rainbow clusterbomb that happens on your screen/UI clutter.

New rewards are cool and all, but this game will still not be respected among the “hardcore” gaming community till anet tackles these combat problems.

Jackie.1829:

Yea, cause throwing junk at each other to win a match is the epitome of big plays. Hey, dw, you cant understand what you cannot do. Ignorance is bliss.

But if you really understand tpvp, you know that every action executed is simply the most logical thing to do. 450-250? Okay you know you need to contest all 3 nodes, there is no alternative. The node play is always straight forward, either you are better at the combat so you win, or you are worse so you lose. Sometimes a team is tactically better but usually its straight forward.

So yes, while I am sure GW2 tpvp games have come “close” before and been “tense” that was not what I was pointing out. What I was pointing out was a big play, a display of intelligence and execution that turns around a match entirely. Something you will never get in tpvp, even if a player wins a 1v2 to secure a match, that wasnt “intelligent” it was just better combat execution. There is a significant difference between being smart and being good. To play GW2 you do not need to be smart, just good at your class then run to the obvious nodes. There is little capacity to outsmart the enemy which is why by extension this games skill cap was not high enough to develop into esports.

Your above assumptions very well demonstrate your motivation. No one said lord rush happened from 499-250. And before throwing junk, there must have been a pretty hard fight which got both players downed. But if one already has his mind set, why twist the experience, I give you lol wholeheartedly, you don’t have to convince me.

When you fight gw2, it does feel like for real. And not just any fight, but your dream fight, where you are a supermen, assassin, mad scientist and magician, you can fly and you can port. You can do anything you could ever dreamed for.

But wait, you prefer pixilated 2d chess better? What can I say, go for it buddy. As they say: “That which is falling should also be pushed”.

btw, watch vocabulary. If you choose your spells like you choose your words – then yeah, flat game suits you better.