Guild Wars 2

You know a lot of people love to complain that core specs are so much weaker then the elite specs. They also claim that elite specs should be “on the same level as core specs”. So in other words it should be viable to play as a core spec. I’m questioning that statement to be honest for 2 main reasons.

1. The elite spec would be the shared 3~4th strongest traitline. That means that by default 2 core spec trait lines are stronger then the elite spec trait line. You could argue that it has to be but then it means that the core & elite trait lines are incompatible which is also undesirable.

1. The skills offered by the elite spec would be weaker then the skills of the core spec. in gw2 we have skills that suit better depending on the scenario. The easiest example is the discrepancy between the different game modes. Some skills are better in PvE and some are better in PvP. The same can be said within a game mode. A projectile reflection is far more usefull against a longbow ranger then it is against a scrapper. The elite spec through it’s design offers an extra set skills. So even if those skills are on the same level as their core counterpart. It would mean that core specs are less desirable then elite specs because elite specs have a higher amount of skills. The only way for an elite spec to be on the same level as a core spec would be that these skills are never better in any scenerio so the elite spec skills should be weaker to achieve this.

It just seems silly to me to invalidate 3 years worth of work. I would have no problems with elites being a bit stronger if the old trait lines all fit in workable builds along with the elite which they 100% do not. Most classes have multiple trait lines that no one uses in spvp anymore because they don’t synergise much at all with the builds that work with the elite. That’s dumb imo.

They need to first start with detaching the weapon from the trait lines.

There needs to be a reason to run without an elite spec, but my opinion is that elit specs should be balanced against each other. Right now, this is impossible, since there is only one per class. In the future, though…

From what I understand, your point is that the elite specs has access to more traits (6 traitlines) and more skills (1 more weapon and skill category) and is therefore stronger.

This is not really true. First, all builds (core or elite) have access to 3 traitlines, so they have the same number of traits to choose from. A better way to say it, is that when you make your build, you choose 3 lines, and sometimes one of them happens to be an elite spec line.

The only somewhat true part is that once you have chosen your traitlines, you have more skills to pick if you slotted an elite spec. But this is greatly minimized (or should be) by synergies. The key is that the elite spec should bring a new role and playstyle to the class. So it should be (one of) the best choice(s) whenever you want to play this role, but not the best choice if you want another role.

Two examples:

• the chronomancer line is mostly a support and defensive line. If you play a shatter mesmer, the shield is not as good as the torch and the wells force you in place which you usually can’t (too squishy). The thing you get from the traitline don’t significantly increase your damage nor your defenses. Therefore, shatter mesmer is better with the core spec. On the other hand, a bunker build is unviable with core mesmer but works with chronomancer. (note that currently, many shatter mesmer still play with chronomancer just because of F5, and that is bad design)
• the dragon hunter is meant to be a selfish version of the (usually very selfless) guardian. Therefore an offensive/roamer medi-guard will find a lot of good tools in the DH line, and the longbow and some very damaging traps fit the job very well. On the other hand, a bunker guard should find better choices in the core traitlines and would not have much use for a longbow when staff and mace give so much support. Here again, this does not work that well, since the new virtues give much more survivability as well as higher support, and the traitline has good synergies with bunker role (Hunter’s Fortification, Hunter’s Determination). As a result many bunker guard use DH.

So my point is that there are many ways to design the new specs so that they have a clear role and are not always the best in all situations. It has nothing to do with having the traits and skills weaker than the core, but simply making sure they have a clear focus and are not CLEARLY STRONGER than core ones. And at the end, if some bunker guards choose DH to get some additional survivability at the expanse of some support, I am perfectly fine with it. I just want to ensure that the elite specs has a clear opportunity cost, which is not always the case currently.

Note however, that I think the new weapons and skills should be given to both core and elite specs.

Pyriall.1683:

They need to first start with detaching the weapon from the trait lines.

Yes, either that or undo the trait merge. A lot of the traits I’d need for my D/D thief are merged with traits only usable by D/P.
We also had the cooldown of our skills increased in June unless we use special traits which then allow us to have the old normal cooldown. Problem; they are in slots and/or merged with traits no one ever uses – so all of us use the same heal skill.

@Tim.6450,

The elite trait lines are stronger by design, how do I know? They’re being referred to as an “Elite” and have a restriction which limits the player to play with only one of them at a time.

We feel the power creep now because this is the first “Elite” trait line. Next expansion when we’ll have 2 elites trait lines, I don’t think the new elite will be a power creep over the current one, Just a different way to play your profession.

Because we supposed to pay for extra content only and not for a power creep, we need to address the gap between core professions and elite professions, the solution is simple.

*Make the old profession mechanic trait line an “Elite” trait lines, because you can’t run 2 elites trait lines this change will break most if not all, meta builds.

*Making the old profession mechanic trait line to be classified also as an “Elite”, is enough to bring back pre-hot builds and reduce the effectiveness of current elite builds.

• Like you I think that the elite trait lines, while very strong, by themselves are not as powerful as most think. It’s the synergy with the old profession mechanic trait lines which makes the builds very superior compared to non elite builds.

*Just think about druid without the BM trait line, Reaper without the soul reaping trait line, DH without the virtues traitline etc….

*I do think that any new profession content that comes with expansion like weapons and skills, should be locked behind the “elite spec” as its more of a content issue rather than a balance issue. Some of the Meta builds even don’t use the new weapons and utilities some use a combination of both old and new. I rarely see a player with running around with all the new toys as an effective build. For that reason, the old profession mechanic trait line, even when classified as an “Elite”, will not lock any content from players specing into HOT elite builds, but will deny the strong trait synergy between two very strong trait lines.

Pyriall.1683:

They need to first start with detaching the weapon from the trait lines.

This is what surprised me most regarding the specializations. The new options are mutually exclusive of a self-defined combination of trait lines. Makes little sense to me that a weapon is locked behind traits, which while having good synergy, shouldn’t really be a requirement, just as how the current weapon-trait options work with the core specs/weapons.

I was more or less expecting the option of getting the new fancy mechanic/weapon as a separate UI panel, picking at most one elite spec at a time, but having the new trait lines be entirely optional; this way, players without the spec unlocked couldn’t use the weapon or trait line, but builds wouldn’t be forced into selecting the elite spec’s trait choices.

brannigan.9831:

It just seems silly to me to invalidate 3 years worth of work. I would have no problems with elites being a bit stronger if the old trait lines all fit in workable builds along with the elite which they 100% do not. Most classes have multiple trait lines that no one uses in spvp anymore because they don’t synergise much at all with the builds that work with the elite. That’s dumb imo.

It does not invalidate 3 years of work since you still have 2 pick other traitlines. Also multiple traitlines that aren’t used, has been a bane for a long time before HoT.

Pyriall.1683:

They need to first start with detaching the weapon from the trait lines.

On the contrary, it only creates more power creep. More equal choices == power creep. It would make elite specs less desirable though.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

There needs to be a reason to run without an elite spec, but my opinion is that elit specs should be balanced against each other. Right now, this is impossible, since there is only one per class. In the future, though…

I would aggree but the current design of elite specs does not allow it. The only thing I could think of is too make elite specs a bit more of a plus-min game by making it remove a weapon type and a utility set. However it would mean some traits are useless which does not sound like a good idea as well.

Silverkey.2078:

From what I understand, your point is that the elite specs has access to more traits (6 traitlines) and more skills (1 more weapon and skill category) and is therefore stronger.

This is not really true. First, all builds (core or elite) have access to 3 traitlines, so they have the same number of traits to choose from. A better way to say it, is that when you make your build, you choose 3 lines, and sometimes one of them happens to be an elite spec line.

The only somewhat true part is that once you have chosen your traitlines, you have more skills to pick if you slotted an elite spec. But this is greatly minimized (or should be) by synergies. The key is that the elite spec should bring a new role and playstyle to the class. So it should be (one of) the best choice(s) whenever you want to play this role, but not the best choice if you want another role.

That would be true if we have “pure” roles. However our roles are muddled by a need of being selfsufficient. A lot of builds have acces to damage migitation, cc, healing, … .

Silverkey.2078:

So my point is that there are many ways to design the new specs so that they have a clear role and are not always the best in all situations.

The problem with that is again overspecialisation is not a good thing in this game.

Silverkey.2078:

It has nothing to do with having the traits and skills weaker than the core, but simply making sure they have a clear focus and are not CLEARLY STRONGER than core ones.

Most actually are not stronger then core specs. It simply that elite specs has acces to “full” core specs (it misses one trait line in most cases most likely their 3th weakest one ). So it is not the skills are stronger, you can just pick the ones that suit your build better.

Silverkey.2078:

And at the end, if some bunker guards choose DH to get some additional survivability at the expanse of some support, I am perfectly fine with it. I just want to ensure that the elite specs has a clear opportunity cost, which is not always the case currently.

Most have oppurtunity costs but it is not that high by design. The loss of a trait line is quite low because you can choose which one. In terms of skills , you only gain more options.

Note however, that I think the new weapons and skills should be given to both core and elite specs.

No, this just results in more power creep.

LughLongArm.5460:

@Tim.6450,

The elite trait lines are stronger by design, how do I know? They’re being referred to as an “Elite” and have a restriction which limits the player to play with only one of them at a time.

We feel the power creep now because this is the first “Elite” trait line. Next expansion when we’ll have 2 elites trait lines, I don’t think the new elite will be a power creep over the current one, Just a different way to play your profession.

I don’t think this is the reason why elite specs are stronger by design. I believe that the extra options give it the edge.

LughLongArm.5460:

Because we supposed to pay for extra content only and not for a power creep, we need to address the gap between core professions and elite professions, the solution is simple.

• Make the old profession mechanic trait line an “Elite” trait lines, because you can’t run 2 elites trait lines this change will break most if not all, meta builds.

This would work with the classes that didn’t tie the new mechanics to the old ones, like druid or thief. But it would be stupid with reaper or warrior since the reaper still maintains the concept of life force and the own line does not offer much of support in that department. Same for warrior and adrenaline. Thoses classes would get elite traits that are almost duplicates of their previous ones like “class mechanic has a 20% lower cooldown”. So much for a new way to play. Also there is already a cost in trait lines due to being forced in the specialisation line.

LughLongArm.5460:

• Making the old profession mechanic trait line to be classified also as an “Elite”, is enough to bring back pre-hot builds and reduce the effectiveness of current elite builds.

I think it would require a redesign of some elite lines are in need then.

LughLongArm.5460:

• Like you I think that the elite trait lines, while very strong, by themselves are not as powerful as most think. It’s the synergy with the old profession mechanic trait lines which makes the builds very superior compared to non elite builds.

Like you I think it is a synergy aspect because you have more options you can take the ones that synergises best. However I don’t think that is the class mechanic line by default for instance tempest did not run arcane, chronobunker did not run illusions and reaper’s best synergy is with spite and not soul reaping.

LughLongArm.5460:

*Just think about druid without the BM trait line, Reaper without the soul reaping trait line, DH without the virtues traitline etc….

It scares me to think that elite trait line specs would be reduced to mechanic traitline v2.

LughLongArm.5460:

*I do think that any new profession content that comes with expansion like weapons and skills, should be locked behind the “elite spec” as its more of a content issue rather than a balance issue. Some of the Meta builds even don’t use the new weapons and utilities some use a combination of both old and new. I rarely see a player with running around with all the new toys as an effective build.

I think they do this split to keep a better eye on balance and future skills. By keeping weapons and skills locked behind elite specs, they don’t have to think about synergy between those locked skills. Which makes it easier to balance and gives the developpers more options for new skills and traits since potential synergy is less of an option.

LughLongArm.5460:

For that reason, the old profession mechanic trait line, even when classified as an “Elite”, will not lock any content from players specing into HOT elite builds, but will deny the strong trait synergy between two very strong trait lines.

So you are trying to limit the option of better synergy by locking out a trait line. I can get that however I don’t think that locking the mechanic line is the best choice. Sometimes some renments of the old class mechanic are kept needing these lines intact.

Its not really possible unless you make elite specs grossly UNDERPOWERED because just by their nature they will always be “better” because they add new abilities and weapons

Most builds people run with core specs only REALLY need like 2 of the 3 specializations to work the other line is usually interchangeable with other core specializations based on situation so naturally people just replace the 3rd unimportant spec with an elite spec to gain the added utility gained from it

So basically elite specs will always be “better”, this is just how its going to be, its just a wierd system atm because we only have ONE elite, but once anet releases more elite specs it will make more sense and will work very well imo

They put themselves in a position where they can’t win:

If they make an elite spec that’s too weak to be used, then everyone playing that profession will be unhappy they didn’t get anything new. So they have to make the elite specs OP, killing build variety and pushing those without the expansion to quit. And considering the poor expansion sales, that’s a disaster.

This is one of the reasons they should have gone the Magic: the Gathering route (Type II, or whatever it’s called these days): where periodically, so many skills/traits are replaced that you have to play a new build.

You’d have to drop the full-priced expansion model to do this though.

Hi @Tim, I appreciate your detailed answer.
I don’t agree with you on several points:

1)It is a fact that most if not all meta builds share the same principle of A. Elite trait line B. Old profession mechanic trait line C. Optional trait line, the only trait line that actually creates differences between builds.
The fact that you actually stated that some elite builds cannot be effective without the old profession mechanic trait line, only proves I’m right. If reaper cant can’t create a build without soul reaping, it’s a big design flaw, reapers like all elites supposed to be viable with any 2 other trait lines , ofc you can have better options than others but all trait line are supposed to be good. When you have two mandatory pillar trait lines (elite and old mechanic) it’s very bad for build diversity as you have only one trait line as optional.

2) Don’t forget the passive bonus to mechanic was spitted so you get 50% as passive and the other 50% with taking the old profession mechanic trait line, so even without this trait line you get a boost your core mechanic, compared to vanilla G2.

3)I can’t say for 100% for all profession, but I haven’t seen a reaper build without soul reaping(Most good condi reapers I c are reaper/soul reaping/curses amd power builds use reaper/soul reaping/spite), its is good they have good synergy with other trait lines,. I’m sure, this change will break meta builds and will create evenly powerful core builds.

Lord Kuru.3685:

They put themselves in a position where they can’t win:

If they make an elite spec that’s too weak to be used, then everyone playing that profession will be unhappy they didn’t get anything new. So they have to make the elite specs OP, killing build variety and pushing those without the expansion to quit. And considering the poor expansion sales, that’s a disaster.

This is one of the reasons they should have gone the Magic: the Gathering route (Type II, or whatever it’s called these days): where periodically, so many skills/traits are replaced that you have to play a new build.

You’d have to drop the full-priced expansion model to do this though.

I don’t think it’s just those without HoT who quit. I want to play my D/D thief and can’t – this pixel guy is the reason why I’m playing this game – I’m not interested in any fancy staff or anything. If you’d given me some “OP” utility skills, alright, I might have gone that way, but only if it matched my playstyle.
I think what effectively happened now is that they replaced their old players with new players as the old ones are pretty alienated. And yes, it’s hard to win this – I agree.

To the OP, here is why elite specs are in the wrong direction. The problem began with the 6/23/2015 patch, right before HoT release so pay attention:

• Pre 6/23/2015, GW2 had finally reached an acceptable level of balance in player vs. player. People enjoyed the “feel” of conquest during the era of the cele/rifle engi, dd cele ele and all other viable builds in play. When the big condi/specialization patch hit, three years of working on a balance for a given game model was turned upside down. Three years of working on balancing the trait system, condis with the old system and the given dynamic in pvp was thrown out the window. Specializations and conditions stacking changed everything. This essentially reverted GW2’s evolution of balance back to year one. I had many friends leave and never come back after the 6/23/2015 patch. Point being: People do not like changes that sour up a game’s working balance. If big changes are to be made, they need to be well tested first and if they end up being sour, they need to be tended to and fixed immediately, not a year down the road.
• HoT was then released on top of the above problem. There was little to no time or effort taken to polish out the 6/23/2015 patch first before an ill tested HoT laid on top of it, forming now complex balance issues. The first week or two of HoT, everyone was excited. Then they figured out that balance/options/viability between build structures in pvp was, broken, slim and virtually non existant but what was mostly disappointing is that even with the new content, the game was actually less fun to play. A game that once felt bolded, underlined and italicized was beginning to feel like a child’s first attempt at writing cursive. Many players who stuck around even after the 6/23/2015 patch had began telling me “I’ve had enough of this”. Once again, many friends left a couple weeks in to the HoT patch, never to return to GW2. Point being: People do not like changes that sour up a game’s working balance. If big changes are to be made, they need to be well tested first and if they end up being sour, they need to be tended to and fixed immediately, not a year down the road.

Honestly I could care less about if elite specs were intended to be superior to core specs. My main concerns are two things:

• #1 – It’s quantity over quality nowadays with these patches since HoT release.
• #2 – The elite specs are so good that they force you in to the role that elite spec is designed for. For example: A Druid must be a healer with low DPS to play it’s new traitline role and succeed. A Dragonhunter must use a longbow and traps to succeed. Ect.. Ect.. The functions of the elite specializations are too prominent and I don’t mean they are OP. I mean they force a prominence in the characters role that can’t be avoided. This is boring and no fun.

So if you want me to address your post directly, I’d say the HoT specializations need to be toned down and core specializations need reworking and some of them slight buffs. This way we have actual options in different build structures again. I mean really now… every class has six specializations. Each specialization offering three minor traits and nine major traits. How many of them are even worth looking at?

to answer the thread title,

yes, in the absence of more elite specs.

this system is not designed to only have 1 elite spec per class. its my understanding that anet wants to have us choose between 1 of perhaps 3 or 4 (or more) elite specs at some point in the distant future. thats why it can only be slotted into the 3rd spec line, so that we can only have 1 of these freakin OP specs at a time. but it feels really bad for the game to be completely dominated by single specs for each class, and it will continue to feel bad prolly until the next expansion or the one after, or whenever they decide to release more elites that are properly tuned to this new balance level. and thats crap.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

To the OP, here is why elite specs are in the wrong direction. The problem began with the 6/23/2015 patch, right before HoT release so pay attention:

• Pre 6/23/2015, GW2 had finally reached an acceptable level of balance in player vs. player. People enjoyed the “feel” of conquest during the era of the cele/rifle engi, dd cele ele and all other viable builds in play. When the big condi/specialization patch hit, three years of working on a balance for a given game model was turned upside down. Three years of working on balancing the trait system, condis with the old system and the given dynamic in pvp was thrown out the window. Specializations and conditions stacking changed everything. This essentially reverted GW2’s evolution of balance back to year one. I had many friends leave and never come back after the 6/23/2015 patch. Point being: People do not like changes that sour up a game’s working balance. If big changes are to be made, they need to be well tested first and if they end up being sour, they need to be tended to and fixed immediately, not a year down the road.
• HoT was then released on top of the above problem. There was little to no time or effort taken to polish out the 6/23/2015 patch first before an ill tested HoT laid on top of it, forming now complex balance issues. The first week or two of HoT, everyone was excited. Then they figured out that balance/options/viability between build structures in pvp was, broken, slim and virtually non existant but what was mostly disappointing is that even with the new content, the game was actually less fun to play. A game that once felt bolded, underlined and italicized was beginning to feel like a child’s first attempt at writing cursive. Many players who stuck around even after the 6/23/2015 patch had began telling me “I’ve had enough of this”. Once again, many friends left a couple weeks in to the HoT patch, never to return to GW2. Point being: People do not like changes that sour up a game’s working balance. If big changes are to be made, they need to be well tested first and if they end up being sour, they need to be tended to and fixed immediately, not a year down the road.

Honestly I could care less about if elite specs were intended to be superior to core specs. My main concerns are two things:

• #1 – It’s quantity over quality nowadays with these patches since HoT release.
• #2 – The elite specs are so good that they force you in to the role that elite spec is designed for. For example: A Druid must be a healer with low DPS to play it’s new traitline role and succeed. A Dragonhunter must use a longbow and traps to succeed. Ect.. Ect.. The functions of the elite specializations are too prominent and I don’t mean they are OP. I mean they force a prominence in the characters role that can’t be avoided. This is boring and no fun.

So if you want me to address your post directly, I’d say the HoT specializations need to be toned down and core specializations need reworking and some of them slight buffs. This way we have actual options in different build structures again. I mean really now… every class has six specializations. Each specialization offering three minor traits and nine major traits. How many of them are even worth looking at?

Standing ovation.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

To the OP, here is why elite specs are in the wrong direction. The problem began with the 6/23/2015 patch, right before HoT release so pay attention:

• Pre 6/23/2015, GW2 had finally reached an acceptable level of balance in player vs. player. People enjoyed the “feel” of conquest during the era of the cele/rifle engi, dd cele ele and all other viable builds in play. When the big condi/specialization patch hit, three years of working on a balance for a given game model was turned upside down. Three years of working on balancing the trait system, condis with the old system and the given dynamic in pvp was thrown out the window. Specializations and conditions stacking changed everything. This essentially reverted GW2’s evolution of balance back to year one. I had many friends leave and never come back after the 6/23/2015 patch. Point being: People do not like changes that sour up a game’s working balance. If big changes are to be made, they need to be well tested first and if they end up being sour, they need to be tended to and fixed immediately, not a year down the road.
• HoT was then released on top of the above problem. There was little to no time or effort taken to polish out the 6/23/2015 patch first before an ill tested HoT laid on top of it, forming now complex balance issues. The first week or two of HoT, everyone was excited. Then they figured out that balance/options/viability between build structures in pvp was, broken, slim and virtually non existant but what was mostly disappointing is that even with the new content, the game was actually less fun to play. A game that once felt bolded, underlined and italicized was beginning to feel like a child’s first attempt at writing cursive. Many players who stuck around even after the 6/23/2015 patch had began telling me “I’ve had enough of this”. Once again, many friends left a couple weeks in to the HoT patch, never to return to GW2. Point being: People do not like changes that sour up a game’s working balance. If big changes are to be made, they need to be well tested first and if they end up being sour, they need to be tended to and fixed immediately, not a year down the road.

Honestly I could care less about if elite specs were intended to be superior to core specs. My main concerns are two things:

• #1 – It’s quantity over quality nowadays with these patches since HoT release.
• #2 – The elite specs are so good that they force you in to the role that elite spec is designed for. For example: A Druid must be a healer with low DPS to play it’s new traitline role and succeed. A Dragonhunter must use a longbow and traps to succeed. Ect.. Ect.. The functions of the elite specializations are too prominent and I don’t mean they are OP. I mean they force a prominence in the characters role that can’t be avoided. This is boring and no fun.

So if you want me to address your post directly, I’d say the HoT specializations need to be toned down and core specializations need reworking and some of them slight buffs. This way we have actual options in different build structures again. I mean really now… every class has six specializations. Each specialization offering three minor traits and nine major traits. How many of them are even worth looking at?

Though I agree with the surplus of patches and 0 breathing room to balance said patches at once, the condi patch isn’t a blow (I personally liked it) as much as Anet’s poor PvP infastructure.

• Candy UI preventing players to queue outside of HotM
• No Rank pvp for like 5 months due to a “test season” that never improved anything.
• An entire class or two being completely unviable for half a year
• Once a year balance patch
• Bugs that’s been here since launch
• Utilities & traits that’s never used since launch
• We got Steonghold instead of the 1v1/2v2/3v3 gamemode the community wanted.

I understand Anet is on a budget here but they could have seriously spend 400k+ from thier pvp tournaments to really fix some needed in-game issues. It’s poor pvp infastructure all the way… all that said… the current meta is the best yet IMO.

Lord Kuru.3685:

They put themselves in a position where they can’t win:

If they make an elite spec that’s too weak to be used, then everyone playing that profession will be unhappy they didn’t get anything new. So they have to make the elite specs OP, killing build variety and pushing those without the expansion to quit. And considering the poor expansion sales, that’s a disaster.

This is one of the reasons they should have gone the Magic: the Gathering route (Type II, or whatever it’s called these days): where periodically, so many skills/traits are replaced that you have to play a new build.

You’d have to drop the full-priced expansion model to do this though.

I don’t think that’s true, if you were to design elite specs to be balanced to their counterpart you could lure new players by the newness of the elite spec while maintaining balance. That’s always been their advertised design goal with elites unlike the name. The elite specs are overpowered in the horizontal aspectby design but thought that since you choose only 1 heal, 3 utilities ,… it wouldn’t turn out so bad. However they forgot that more option result in better options creating a power creep. It’s the fallacy of pure horizontal progression.

LughLongArm.5460:

Hi @Tim, I appreciate your detailed answer.
I don’t agree with you on several points:

1.1)It is a fact that most if not all meta builds share the same principle of A. Elite trait line B. Old profession mechanic trait line C. Optional trait line, the only trait line that actually creates differences between builds.

3)I can’t say for 100% for all profession, but I haven’t seen a reaper build without soul reaping(Most good condi reapers I c are reaper/soul reaping/curses amd power builds use reaper/soul reaping/spite), its is good they have good synergy with other trait lines,. I’m sure, this change will break meta builds and will create evenly powerful core builds.

Aura share tempest doesn’t use arcane and scrappers doesn’t use tools. These two I know for certain are true. Also the old mesmer tank did not use illusions as well. Looking at metabattle.com for other classes, I see revenant,mesmer breaking this mold. Considering meta I haven’t been able to determine a meta due to unranked but I do consider revenant and scrapper to be strong contenders for meta which places it at what 2 out of 5. As close to 50% as you can get.

LughLongArm.5460:

1.2) The fact that you actually stated that some elite builds cannot be effective without the old profession mechanic trait line, only proves I’m right. If reaper cant can’t create a build without soul reaping, it’s a big design flaw, reapers like all elites supposed to be viable with any 2 other trait lines , ofc you can have better options than others but all trait line are supposed to be good. When you have two mandatory pillar trait lines (elite and old mechanic) it’s very bad for build diversity as you have only one trait line as optional.

It’s not what I intended to say with reaper, what I intended to say with reaper was that it kept a lot of it’s old mechanics (damage absorbtion, life force, entry cd, natural degen) while the new mechanic is the changed skill set. Soul reaping enhances a lot of theses old aspects (lower degen, lower entry cooldown,… ). While the other trait lines affect the new stuff. So if reaper trait line were to enhance it’s own mechanics what would it have to address? The same stuff as soul reaping which makes the new playstyle concept a bit lowered.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

• #2 – The elite specs are so good that they force you in to the role that elite spec is designed for. For example: A Druid must be a healer with low DPS to play it’s new traitline role and succeed. A Dragonhunter must use a longbow and traps to succeed. Ect.. Ect.. The functions of the elite specializations are too prominent and I don’t mean they are OP. I mean they force a prominence in the characters role that can’t be avoided. This is boring and no fun.

Isn’t this the point of specialisation: to go more prominent in a certtain direction? Does releasing more elite specialisations not solve this?

Trevor Boyer.6524:

So if you want me to address your post directly, I’d say the HoT specializations need to be toned down and core specializations need reworking and some of them slight buffs. This way we have actual options in different build structures again. I mean really now… every class has six specializations. Each specialization offering three minor traits and nine major traits. How many of them are even worth looking at?

Could you specify your design goals? I mean you say what has to happen but not the why. Unless you mean making the elite specialisation less specialised which makes me question your methods.Nerfing the skills will not make the design aspect of a specialisation change: Druid would still have celestial avatar. A lot of people want elite specs on the lvl of core specs but it is a design goal I can’t see happening while maintaining healthy elite specs as they are designed now. Which is the essence of my post are the design goals of “elites on the same level as core” and " healthy elite specs" compatible with the design of elite specialisations?

tl;dr Anet apologist is trying to say that elite specs are not that much better than core specs and even if they are better its all for a good cause

topkek

“Pre 6/23/2015, GW2 had finally reached an acceptable level of balance in player vs. player. "

All classes had 2 or 3 viable builds with different role into it.

They said we will change traits and attributes on traits line to improve more viable build.

The result: Most viable build got wrekt. Each class got only 1 viable build, no more of 2 or 3 differents one.

Warrior: Pre patch – Shoutbow, Hambow, Banner Regen – summer patch : Berzeker Rampage.

Ele : Pre patch – fresh air ele, staff ele celestial/zerker, dd ele – summer patch : dd ele

Guardian: Pre patch – bunker guard, meditation dps guard, burn guard – summer patch : burn guard

The attributes on traits was giving us more options than cookie cutter amulet only stat system. Since we can’t customize it, we have less options to make viable build. Less options should give you better balanced… but with HOT we had the less balanced META ever.

Now people say this meta is the best one, but I don’t agree. The best meta was after turret engi nerf and before june patch 2015. The second best was after dhuumfire nerf before april 2014 patch.

Best meta means: where you have a lot of viable build for all classes that are balanced versus meta.

Jourdelune.7456:

Now people say this meta is the best one

Who said that???

I just rage quit cause I can’t stand being stealthed by my allies every other second as they can, contrahery to me, spam stealth and because every guy I had to 5% health just healed himself full. I was fighting against an Tempest with my ordinary ranger this afternoon and we were unable to kill each other – honestly; can I please have the game back that I played a year ago? This is all beyond brainless.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

To the OP, here is why elite specs are in the wrong direction. The problem began with the 6/23/2015 patch, right before HoT release so pay attention:

• Pre 6/23/2015, GW2 had finally reached an acceptable level of balance in player vs. player. People enjoyed the “feel” of conquest during the era of the cele/rifle engi, dd cele ele and all other viable builds in play.

No they didn’t. People complained just as much about balance then as they do now. dd cele ele was OP

Tim.6450:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

• #2 – The elite specs are so good that they force you in to the role that elite spec is designed for. For example: A Druid must be a healer with low DPS to play it’s new traitline role and succeed. A Dragonhunter must use a longbow and traps to succeed. Ect.. Ect.. The functions of the elite specializations are too prominent and I don’t mean they are OP. I mean they force a prominence in the characters role that can’t be avoided. This is boring and no fun.

Isn’t this the point of specialisation: to go more prominent in a certtain direction? Does releasing more elite specialisations not solve this?

The point is not that the elite specialization supports a certain role and thus requires you to play that role while using that spec. The problem is that the elite spec is so better than core, that you are forced into playing that role – every other role is subpar in comparison.
Previously, the core prof usually had several useful roles you could play (depending on the profession and current balance). Elite spec pushes you towards one role, eliminating all choices.

Originally, builds were rarely defined by only a single traitline choice. Now, with elites, the elite becomes the primary defining factor of the build.

And no, adding more elite specs won’t help with that – they will still replace core choices. They will still be primary defining option, overshadowing all others.

Tim.6450:

brannigan.9831:

It just seems silly to me to invalidate 3 years worth of work. I would have no problems with elites being a bit stronger if the old trait lines all fit in workable builds along with the elite which they 100% do not. Most classes have multiple trait lines that no one uses in spvp anymore because they don’t synergise much at all with the builds that work with the elite. That’s dumb imo.

It does not invalidate 3 years of work since you still have 2 pick other traitlines. Also multiple traitlines that aren’t used, has been a bane for a long time before HoT.

Pyriall.1683:

They need to first start with detaching the weapon from the trait lines.

On the contrary, it only creates more power creep. More equal choices == power creep. It would make elite specs less desirable though.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

There needs to be a reason to run without an elite spec, but my opinion is that elit specs should be balanced against each other. Right now, this is impossible, since there is only one per class. In the future, though…

I would aggree but the current design of elite specs does not allow it. The only thing I could think of is too make elite specs a bit more of a plus-min game by making it remove a weapon type and a utility set. However it would mean some traits are useless which does not sound like a good idea as well.

Silverkey.2078:

From what I understand, your point is that the elite specs has access to more traits (6 traitlines) and more skills (1 more weapon and skill category) and is therefore stronger.

This is not really true. First, all builds (core or elite) have access to 3 traitlines, so they have the same number of traits to choose from. A better way to say it, is that when you make your build, you choose 3 lines, and sometimes one of them happens to be an elite spec line.

The only somewhat true part is that once you have chosen your traitlines, you have more skills to pick if you slotted an elite spec. But this is greatly minimized (or should be) by synergies. The key is that the elite spec should bring a new role and playstyle to the class. So it should be (one of) the best choice(s) whenever you want to play this role, but not the best choice if you want another role.

That would be true if we have “pure” roles. However our roles are muddled by a need of being selfsufficient. A lot of builds have acces to damage migitation, cc, healing, … .

Silverkey.2078:

So my point is that there are many ways to design the new specs so that they have a clear role and are not always the best in all situations.

The problem with that is again overspecialisation is not a good thing in this game.

Silverkey.2078:

It has nothing to do with having the traits and skills weaker than the core, but simply making sure they have a clear focus and are not CLEARLY STRONGER than core ones.

Most actually are not stronger then core specs. It simply that elite specs has acces to “full” core specs (it misses one trait line in most cases most likely their 3th weakest one ). So it is not the skills are stronger, you can just pick the ones that suit your build better.

Silverkey.2078:

And at the end, if some bunker guards choose DH to get some additional survivability at the expanse of some support, I am perfectly fine with it. I just want to ensure that the elite specs has a clear opportunity cost, which is not always the case currently.

Most have oppurtunity costs but it is not that high by design. The loss of a trait line is quite low because you can choose which one. In terms of skills , you only gain more options.

Note however, that I think the new weapons and skills should be given to both core and elite specs.

No, this just results in more power creep.

LughLongArm.5460:

@Tim.6450,

The elite trait lines are stronger by design, how do I know? They’re being referred to as an “Elite” and have a restriction which limits the player to play with only one of them at a time.

We feel the power creep now because this is the first “Elite” trait line. Next expansion when we’ll have 2 elites trait lines, I don’t think the new elite will be a power creep over the current one, Just a different way to play your profession.

I don’t think this is the reason why elite specs are stronger by design. I believe that the extra options give it the edge.

LughLongArm.5460:

Because we supposed to pay for extra content only and not for a power creep, we need to address the gap between core professions and elite professions, the solution is simple.

• Make the old profession mechanic trait line an “Elite” trait lines, because you can’t run 2 elites trait lines this change will break most if not all, meta builds.

This would work with the classes that didn’t tie the new mechanics to the old ones, like druid or thief. But it would be stupid with reaper or warrior since the reaper still maintains the concept of life force and the own line does not offer much of support in that department. Same for warrior and adrenaline. Thoses classes would get elite traits that are almost duplicates of their previous ones like “class mechanic has a 20% lower cooldown”. So much for a new way to play. Also there is already a cost in trait lines due to being forced in the specialisation line.

LughLongArm.5460:

• Making the old profession mechanic trait line to be classified also as an “Elite”, is enough to bring back pre-hot builds and reduce the effectiveness of current elite builds.

I think it would require a redesign of some elite lines are in need then.

LughLongArm.5460:

• Like you I think that the elite trait lines, while very strong, by themselves are not as powerful as most think. It’s the synergy with the old profession mechanic trait lines which makes the builds very superior compared to non elite builds.

Like you I think it is a synergy aspect because you have more options you can take the ones that synergises best. However I don’t think that is the class mechanic line by default for instance tempest did not run arcane, chronobunker did not run illusions and reaper’s best synergy is with spite and not soul reaping.

LughLongArm.5460:

*Just think about druid without the BM trait line, Reaper without the soul reaping trait line, DH without the virtues traitline etc….

It scares me to think that elite trait line specs would be reduced to mechanic traitline v2.

LughLongArm.5460:

*I do think that any new profession content that comes with expansion like weapons and skills, should be locked behind the “elite spec” as its more of a content issue rather than a balance issue. Some of the Meta builds even don’t use the new weapons and utilities some use a combination of both old and new. I rarely see a player with running around with all the new toys as an effective build.

I think they do this split to keep a better eye on balance and future skills. By keeping weapons and skills locked behind elite specs, they don’t have to think about synergy between those locked skills. Which makes it easier to balance and gives the developpers more options for new skills and traits since potential synergy is less of an option.

LughLongArm.5460:

For that reason, the old profession mechanic trait line, even when classified as an “Elite”, will not lock any content from players specing into HOT elite builds, but will deny the strong trait synergy between two very strong trait lines.

So you are trying to limit the option of better synergy by locking out a trait line. I can get that however I don’t think that locking the mechanic line is the best choice. Sometimes some renments of the old class mechanic are kept needing these lines intact.

Whether that type of situation (limited diversity and many trait lines rarely being used) existed before does not excuse it being every worse now. Elite being too strong is a problem because it makes builds even less diverse then they were before which wasn’t diverse to begin with. Its not a hard concept to grasp. You might be ok with most classes using 3 or 4 trait lines at most in a tiny selection of workable builds but many people are not.

It is if you didn’t by HOT

Silverkey.2078:

Snip.

I agree 95% with this man.

In my opinion making elite specs balanced would benefit both 1) Players who didn’t buy HoT – 2) Players who did buy HoT – 3) ArenaNet itself. Allow me to explain:

1) The first group will have a decent chance to play this game without being killed by someone with an elite spec regardless of personal skill.

2) The second group will also benefit from this, because it will make the game more competitive again, and allow for more diversity. Right now you have to run an elite spec to win, so that’s not good for purchasers either.

3) This is also good for ArenaNet itself, because a lot of people have quit the game because the meta is dumb and elite specs are overpowered… they wish a level playing field.

Sirendor.1394:

3) This is also good for ArenaNet itself, because a lot of people have quit the game because the meta is dumb and elite specs are overpowered… they wish a level playing field.

I can attest that. Many long time players in my guild bought the expansion, and got so disappointed with the balance. Some left very early, others left after the end of the first season and the balance patch. And I myself really don’t enjoy PvP post-Hot nearly as much as before.

Is a company selling things desirable?

brannigan.9831:

Whether that type of situation (limited diversity and many trait lines rarely being used) existed before does not excuse it being every worse now. Elite being too strong is a problem because it makes builds even less diverse then they were before which wasn’t diverse to begin with. Its not a hard concept to grasp. You might be ok with most classes using 3 or 4 trait lines at most in a tiny selection of workable builds but many people are not.

I’m NOT ok with it BUT I prefer it over useless elite specs.

Sirendor.1394:

In my opinion making elite specs balanced would benefit both 1) Players who didn’t buy HoT – 2) Players who did buy HoT – 3) ArenaNet itself. Allow me to explain:

1) The first group will have a decent chance to play this game without being killed by someone with an elite spec regardless of personal skill.

2) The second group will also benefit from this, because it will make the game more competitive again, and allow for more diversity. Right now you have to run an elite spec to win, so that’s not good for purchasers either.

3) This is also good for ArenaNet itself, because a lot of people have quit the game because the meta is dumb and elite specs are overpowered… they wish a level playing field.

I’m not talking that it isn’t the preferred option but I simply don’t believe that you can balance elite spec skills and traits on the level of core specs without it being OP due to the extra diversity granted by elite specs. That and being elite specs on the level of core means you have to the shared 3th weakest traitline.

Astralporing.1957:

The point is not that the elite specialization supports a certain role and thus requires you to play that role while using that spec. The problem is that the elite spec is so better than core, that you are forced into playing that role – every other role is subpar in comparison.

Strange the poster mentioned otherwhise. Also being forced to play a role, I see chronoshatters these days please tell me they are the same role as past chronobunkers. I’ve seen hammer heralds vs malyx heralds, same role? So you can’t say elite specs themselves force a role.

Astralporing.1957:

Previously, the core prof usually had several useful roles you could play (depending on the profession and current balance). Elite spec pushes you towards one role, eliminating all choices.

Previous metas did the same in the past as well. Nothing new.

Astralporing.1957:

Originally, builds were rarely defined by only a single traitline choice. Now, with elites, the elite becomes the primary defining factor of the build.

Builds are not defined by their elite specs. Meta shifted just to that role which as I said again is nothing new.

Astralporing.1957:

And no, adding more elite specs won’t help with that – they will still replace core choices. They will still be primary defining option, overshadowing all others.

But you can get new synergies between core and elite, which (could) result in all core choices chosen. Of course not all combinations work but that is nothing new.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Is a company selling things desirable?

It is but it is not the perspective I’m looking for. I just think to get elite specs on the level of core specs you need to get a weak elite spec trait and skill wise, which I would consider undesariable.

The problem with elite specs is you don’t really sacrifice anything to take the line. Sure you don’t get access to a third core trait line, but the added mechanics and the elite spec traits and skills completely overshadow that.

Anet also can’t just keep buffing core profession skills and traits because that just adds more power creep. All the necro changes did was buff Reaper more than base necro.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Is a company selling things desirable?

Company lowering quality of their goods for profit may be desirable to that company (at least shortterm), but it’s not really desirable for customers, is it?

Tim.6450:

It is but it is not the perspective I’m looking for. I just think to get elite specs on the level of core specs you need to get a weak elite spec trait and skill wise, which I would consider undesariable.

You still can do that – someone said it in another thread: The elites are a different way to play a class – you can still make the traitlines as weak as any other and still offer something new.
Problem with that is that one has to take the traitline even if one doesn’t intend to use the weapon tied to it to get the utility. For thief (class I know the best) the utility alone is pretty interesting and offers stuff the vanilla game doesn’t. I’ve been told that this kind of was how things were handeled in GW1 (didn’t play it) – so if I were a vanilla thief and wanted to remain so, I’d still have an Initiative to buy HoT just to get the utility. What has happened now is getting people who usually don’t play pvp into pvp. As soon as their faceroll classes will be nerfed they’re gone. If the Elites won’t be nerfed, then all of what has been before is gone for good and you’ll have ~9 builds until eternity or until the next expansion comes out.
I’d say that even the trait merge was something that killed diversity and that needs to be reworked – I’m pretty sure that as it is now it will never bring back what we had before June = diversity.
So, HoT was a bit short sighted – they really saved on the wrong things – but alas, that’s my opinion, maybe I’m wrong.

Jourdelune.7456:

Now people say this meta is the best one, but I don’t agree. The best meta was after turret engi nerf and before june patch 2015. The second best was after dhuumfire nerf before april 2014 patch.

Best meta means: where you have a lot of viable build for all classes that are balanced versus meta.

This is what arena net needs to be focusing on.

Tim.6450:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

So if you want me to address your post directly, I’d say the HoT specializations need to be toned down and core specializations need reworking and some of them slight buffs. This way we have actual options in different build structures again. I mean really now… every class has six specializations. Each specialization offering three minor traits and nine major traits. How many of them are even worth looking at?

Could you specify your design goals? I mean you say what has to happen but not the why. Unless you mean making the elite specialisation less specialised which makes me question your methods.Nerfing the skills will not make the design aspect of a specialisation change: Druid would still have celestial avatar. A lot of people want elite specs on the lvl of core specs but it is a design goal I can’t see happening while maintaining healthy elite specs as they are designed now. Which is the essence of my post are the design goals of “elites on the same level as core” and " healthy elite specs" compatible with the design of elite specialisations?

With all due respect, Tim
You are seriously over complicating this
Clearly game balance is the design goal

Also, your initial post and your posts up until now, indicate that you feel elite specs should be superior to all core specializations. The fact that you don’t understand what is wrong with this, and that you voice this opinion publicly in the forum, makes me wonder if you are one of two things: (A) someone who has never actually played pvp in Guild Wars 2 or (B) a master troll who knows how to keep a discussion going!

Either way, you are creating many views for the devs to notice
~ Thank you