Guild Wars 2

In my mind, dodge rolling should be meaningful and well timed in execution -its the main thing that separates the men from the boys in tpvp. But it seems like every other class has so much access to evades and vigor these days, that it makes dodge rolling spamable and meaningless.

I hate the feeling I get when my enemies get a random dodge off that saves them from a huge burst or cc skill that should have punished them severely (like an eviscerate on warrior or a 3 clone mind wrack on mesmer), but it’s even worse when you fight an ele or bm ranger with nearly unlimited access to vigor and they roll around every 1-2 seconds so you’re not even able to count out their endurance and landing a meaningful skill on them becomes like winning the lottery.

So what do you all think? Should vigor/evades be toned down, or do you think its fine where its at? -Its late, I might just be cranky right now, but this is really getting on my nerves tonight for some reason lol.

Well, it wouldn’t be Spam Wars 2 if you couldn’t spam evades, dodges, boons, AoEs and particle effects.

I do agree with you here.

yes i agree

there is no such things as “a lucky roll that saves them from all my burst omg”
when you want to burst someone, immobilize him or count his dodges, or bait a dodge with a fake-cast

dodge and vigor are fine.

Yea, evades in general are at times a bit over the top and it’s not just dodge rolls (I’m looking at you, rangers). It’s a pretty big balance issue, especially considering how important evades are. Vigor as well. Mesmers get a free vigor on crit trait for a measly FIVE points up their most important tree. Sigil of energy is used relatively ubiquitously for a kitten good reason.

Worst of all it appears like not a lot of thought has been put into it from a-net. I wouldn’t consider cutting the invulns on dodge just yet but I would definitely think about hampering access to vigor as well as the strength of it in general (that isn’t to even mention protection, why that thing hasn’t been nerfed is beyond me)

well, basically it is more like a prediciton you make. As most classes play with energy-sigils + vigor + evade skills (to name a few: updraft, whirlwind, phase-retreat, serpents strike etc.). Basically most classes have 3 dodges every 10 seconds + 1 evade skill/block skill.

Altough there is something called immobilize. The perfect counter to it, which makes it in my eyes balanced overall.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

well, basically it is more like a prediciton you make. As most classes play with energy-sigils + vigor + evade skills (to name a few: updraft, whirlwind, phase-retreat, serpents strike etc.). Basically most classes have 3 dodges every 10 seconds + 1 evade skill/block skill.

Altough there is something called immobilize. The perfect counter to it, which makes it in my eyes balanced overall.

I can’t think of an immob that doesn’t have a clear, dodgeable animation. While they may be an effective “counter” in larger scale fights, in 1v1s-3v3s they’re hardly as effective given their short duration

Yea, dodge, vigor, evades, teleports, stealth, ym are fine.
Perfectly. Fine.

Inb4 l2p

necromancers disagree

ahuba.6430:

necromancers disagree

Haha. It was pretty obvious that someone would write this.

In response to the OP: Yes there are some classes that have too much access to dodges. It isn’t just dodgerolls. Certain classes that can exploit the defensive mechanics in this game for what essentially amounts 30+% invulnerability up time between blocks, evades, invulns, etc. That is far too much considering other classes are severely limited in this regard. If everyone had the same access it would be less of an issue I suppose, but it seems like too much at any rate.

Imo, dodging should not make you invulnerable in any way or form. It is just an 11th skill that makes you invincible for a short period of time. If you look at the game design in general, you’ll see that dodging is the core problem of the gameplay in both pve and pvp, because it simplifies gameplay into who got the most dps and most invulnerability within a timeframe without any regards to position play. There is no such thing in GW2, only jumps, retreats and circling around your enemy hoping to get behind him as much as possible so he misses an attack.

By design, dodging should reduce the collider of your character, so you are harder to hit, but not let you evade all damage. GW2’s gameplay is not about dps, control, and support, but dps and dodge.

Two classes stand out to me in this regard: Rangers and Thieves. Evades and dodges … and teleports to some degree is imho for these two ott.

ahuba.6430:

necromancers disagree

1 miss 4 out of 5 Epidemics because of random dodge rolls. Epidemic doesn’t affect the target (I mean, 0 dmg, no boon stripping or any effects on him), and should be unaffected by his dodge. It is already annoying enough to have line of sight.

Poxxia.1547:

Two classes stand out to me in this regard: Rangers and Thieves. Evades and dodges … and teleports to some degree is imho for these two ott.

Thow Mesmer in there too. Is isn’t the dodge mechanic alone, but the collective defensive mechanics available. Mesmer has generally been considered a top tier class all along and one of the very large contributing factors is the fact MH sword = 20+% uptime on distortion. Another is that S/X,St has 2 quasi-stunbreakers on short CD weapon skills.

Guardian is similarly problematic due to the combination of defensive controls and blocking in addition to high protection and vigor up times (though at least it requires some skillful play with a guard instead of burst every 10-15 seconds and you cant get hurt).

Really the classes that are currently strong in Tourney play all have some means of over utilizing defensive mechanics compared to the ones that are not. I suppose you could argue that engi doesn’t fit that description, but that is the only debatable exception that I see.

This is definitely a problem, and I’ve mentioned it in several threads as well.
A few classes only need to spend 5-10 trait points to have almost permanent vigor (guardians, elementalists, rangers, thieves.). Running two Sigils Of Energy is also very common as well.
This means that it’s just as efficient to spam your dodges, than to actually wait for your opponents stronger attacks. Anyone who claims otherwise are imo just being naive.

It’s not every other class. It’s the classes with build in evade in their abilities that probably made you make this thread… such as thieves and rangers.

Swim.6830:

It’s not every other class. It’s the classes with build in evade in their abilities that probably made you make this thread… such as thieves and rangers.

and Mesmers and Guardians and Eles

Ostricheggs.3742:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

well, basically it is more like a prediciton you make. As most classes play with energy-sigils + vigor + evade skills (to name a few: updraft, whirlwind, phase-retreat, serpents strike etc.). Basically most classes have 3 dodges every 10 seconds + 1 evade skill/block skill.

Altough there is something called immobilize. The perfect counter to it, which makes it in my eyes balanced overall.

I can’t think of an immob that doesn’t have a clear, dodgeable animation. While they may be an effective “counter” in larger scale fights, in 1v1s-3v3s they’re hardly as effective given their short duration

In 1v1s, and 2v2s, sure. But in 3v3s, immobilizes should be capitalized in order to land bursts.

Surprise shot and chains of light are decent examples of solid spike setup immobilizes that are hard to dodge. Flurry, infiltrator’s strike, devourer venom, signet of earth all immobilize pretty reliably too. Flurry, devourer and the signet aren’t used, though.

Zodian.6597:

In my mind, dodge rolling should be meaningful and well timed in execution -its the main thing that separates the men from the boys in tpvp.

Zodian.6597:

I hate the feeling I get when my enemies get a random dodge off that saves them from a huge burst or cc skill that should have punished them severely (like an eviscerate on warrior or a 3 clone mind wrack on mesmer)

placing such emphasis on the skill of well timed dodging, and then discounting that same skill when it so happens to avoid your burst skills. lol

sorry, the hypocrisy was too much. had to point it out.

Getting back on topic though, I have no real issue with dodging and high vigor up time. Dodging is an active way for players to defend themselves, and given the amount and rate of burst attacks flying around a match it seems to make for more interesting play than everyone just turtle-bunkering and relying on passive defenses.

Attack skills that evade or negate damage are questionable though and seem counterintuitive to PvP in general. IMO, the crux of PvP akittens simplest, it’s core, is the same as that of boxing: punch and counter-punch. Attacking your opponent is intended to be a risk/reward choice in which you knowingly open yourself up to the possibility of being countered for the opportunity of possibly wounding your foe and tilting the fight in your favor, putting the emphasis on skillful attacking and counter-attacking. Building evades and invulns into attack skills completely disrupts that logic by removing half of the play. Is it advantageous to bypass the risk in pursuit of the reward? Of course! Hence why S/d Thieves are gaining popularity, Mesmers won’t leave home without a main-hand sword, and BM Rangers will never kill anything since it’s not required as they just spam evades with little intention of actually dealing damage or posing a threat while waiting for their pet to kill you (this being the worst offender IMO as they don’t even try to disguise the passivity of their build and it’s corresponding play style – virtually the complete antithesis of what I would consider PvP).

You, evil people, don’t deny the skill of spam wars 2 .

I STRONGLY encourage everybody to try the new Dragon Ball Arena when the foodbuff bug has been fixed.
In there you have absolutely no vigor or other sources of endurance regeneration other than the standard.
If you have been playing PvP for as long as me or even longer, you will quickly notice how much you’re actually dependant on vigor in regulalr pvp.
In Dragon Ball you actually have to use your dodges wisely, and I often find myself spamming the dodge key, because I just randomly used them as gap closers or for similar sillyness.

KrisHQ.4719:

I STRONGLY encourage everybody to try the new Dragon Ball Arena when the foodbuff bug has been fixed.
In there you have absolutely no vigor or other sources of endurance regeneration other than the standard.
If you have been playing PvP for as long as me or even longer, you will quickly notice how much you’re actually dependant on vigor in regulalr pvp.
In Dragon Ball you actually have to use your dodges wisely, and I often find myself spamming the dodge key, because I just randomly used them as gap closers or for similar sillyness.

unnecessary. just play a Necro. you’ll either learn to choose your dodges wisely or rage quit.

hackks.3687:

Zodian.6597:

In my mind, dodge rolling should be meaningful and well timed in execution -its the main thing that separates the men from the boys in tpvp.

Zodian.6597:

I hate the feeling I get when my enemies get a random dodge off that saves them from a huge burst or cc skill that should have punished them severely (like an eviscerate on warrior or a 3 clone mind wrack on mesmer)

placing such emphasis on the skill of well timed dodging, and then discounting that same skill when it so happens to avoid your burst skills. lol

sorry, the hypocrisy was too much. had to point it out.

imo most people just use dodge when it’s up. They don’t wait for the burst skill or count cooldowns. It’s almost like “oh no this guys in range” evade evade. You can tell when someone is using it in a reactionary/skillful way because they will often use it after a skill animation has begun (like avoiding a bulls rush – 100b combo, you have to dodge just milliseconds before the bulls rush hits you), instead of just using it as a gap closer/to kite aimlessly and getting lucky.

No hypocrisy was intended, I do realize how my statements could be taken that way lol. Lucky rando dodges have been and always will be present in PvP (even i’m guilty of this bad habit at times), but at the moment they are hardly punished. -Sorry I wasn’t more clear about this in the original post, it was late and I don’t think a read it back to myself to realize how silly I sounded lol.

Yes, it is too accessible. Between constant vigor uptime, energy sigils, traits that either give energy back or increase endurance regen, and attacks that actually evade, it can get kind of stupid for bunker builds.

Zodian.6597:

hackks.3687:

Zodian.6597:

In my mind, dodge rolling should be meaningful and well timed in execution -its the main thing that separates the men from the boys in tpvp.

Zodian.6597:

I hate the feeling I get when my enemies get a random dodge off that saves them from a huge burst or cc skill that should have punished them severely (like an eviscerate on warrior or a 3 clone mind wrack on mesmer)

placing such emphasis on the skill of well timed dodging, and then discounting that same skill when it so happens to avoid your burst skills. lol

sorry, the hypocrisy was too much. had to point it out.

imo most people just use dodge when it’s up. They don’t wait for the burst skill or count cooldowns. It’s almost like “oh no this guys in range” evade evade. You can tell when someone is using it in a reactionary/skillful way because they will often use it after a skill animation has begun (like avoiding a bulls rush – 100b combo, you have to dodge just milliseconds before the bulls rush hits you), instead of just using it as a gap closer/to kite aimlessly and getting lucky.

No hypocrisy was intended, I do realize how my statements could be taken that way lol. Lucky rando dodges have been and always will be present in PvP (even i’m guilty of this bad habit at times), but at the moment they are hardly punished. -Sorry I wasn’t more clear about this in the original post, it was late and I don’t think a read it back to myself to realize how silly I sounded lol.

I knew it wasn’t intended, but the devil’s advocate in me just couldn’t let it go without pointing it out, even though you were raising a valid point. no offense intended

Shar.3402:

there is no such things as “a lucky roll that saves them from all my burst omg”
when you want to burst someone, immobilize him or count his dodges, or bait a dodge with a fake-cast

dodge and vigor are fine.

Unless the enemies use an evade/teleport build. Then they just won’t care about immobilizes, avoiding your attack by rolling on the spot.

And I think the abilities actually easy to dodge are really few.

For instance: there is no way you can tell which attack a warrior with longbow is using: they are all almost the same (only one different is arcing arrow, burning arrows are shot in a slightly different way, but it’s hard to tell), and they take 0.25 seconds to cast. Not predictable: the only way they can be dodged is with luck.

And another thing: not dodging means having your endurance bar full for some time. That means wasting your endurance regeneration bonus: when your endurance is full, your regeneration is the same as all other builds. 0. That is a waste, so we may find out is more advisable to dodge at every occasion we would otherwise take damage. Just an idea.

hackks.3687:

KrisHQ.4719:

I STRONGLY encourage everybody to try the new Dragon Ball Arena when the foodbuff bug has been fixed.
In there you have absolutely no vigor or other sources of endurance regeneration other than the standard.
If you have been playing PvP for as long as me or even longer, you will quickly notice how much you’re actually dependant on vigor in regulalr pvp.
In Dragon Ball you actually have to use your dodges wisely, and I often find myself spamming the dodge key, because I just randomly used them as gap closers or for similar sillyness.

unnecessary. just play a Necro. you’ll either learn to choose your dodges wisely or rage quit.

LMAO exactly this.

I’ve been playing a decent amount of necro and I’ve realized that deathshroud alone is a terrible defensive option in comparison to actual damage mitigation like evades, invul and mobility (ANET IF YOU ARE READING THIS GIVE NECROS A REAL TELEPORT….DS#2). Regardless even with the lack of dodges and oh kitten buttons I’m finding it a lot of fun.

P.S. I now understand how frustrating it is when someone randomly dodges your corrupt boon especially when you aren’t even NEAR them OR ATTACKING them.

P.P.S. Asura necro d/d is the most gangster thing in guild wars 2.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Swim.6830:

It’s not every other class. It’s the classes with build in evade in their abilities that probably made you make this thread… such as thieves and rangers.

and Mesmers and Guardians and Eles

You misunderstand. Guardians don’t have an ability that evades in itself. Same for Eles.

He was probably talking about vigor

redslion.9675:

He was probably talking about vigor

Aye, but I don’t see how that is overpowered considering some of the other boons and available buffs in the game…

Swim.6830:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Swim.6830:

It’s not every other class. It’s the classes with build in evade in their abilities that probably made you make this thread… such as thieves and rangers.

and Mesmers and Guardians and Eles

You misunderstand. Guardians don’t have an ability that evades in itself. Same for Eles.

Ele: updraft

It’s nowhere near ranger evasion just correcting you.

So how do you tell between purposeful dodges and lucky ones?

Dodging is fine. Don’t get trigger happy with your bursts.

Neare.9703:

So how do you tell between purposeful dodges and lucky ones?

Dodging is fine. Don’t get trigger happy with your bursts.

lol exactly!
I wonder how the OP can discern the difference between lucky and purposeful dodges

Maybe if someone have shown to randomly spam dodge before and manages to dodge an important skill.

Or maybe is referring to classes that can chain dodges and evades almost endlessly.

The only professions that can spam evades endlessly are : mesmer with phase retreat and s/d thieves

I hate to say this, but as a necro I can always see how easily accessible dodges are for other classes. getting vigor on my necro is a dream and requires 60s utilities and special conditions. on my mesmer I just need to crit something with myself or a phantasm or activate a 10s cooldown weapon skill. a good degree of classes have great access to mobility, and for some it offers them little risk when engaging a fight or landing blows. While I do understand that certain classes should have this to improve their defenses, Its to the point that some of them are almost unbeatable unless they make every mistake possible.

Arheundel.6451:

The only professions that can spam evades endlessly are : mesmer with phase retreat and s/d thieves

SB/SB thieves too x)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qehdmw1xRjo

jayvux.4128:

Arheundel.6451:

The only professions that can spam evades endlessly are : mesmer with phase retreat and s/d thieves

SB/SB thieves too x)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qehdmw1xRjo

I’m pretty sure you forgot ranger.

This is something I have argued a number of times before, though met a lot of resistance towards getting this issue addressed.

The issue is also a bit more complex as it is largely integrated with the cast time of many high impact skills and maintaining time to kill for the non-outlier builds.

Personally I would increase endurance cap to 150%, increase recharge time to 15s and nuke sigil of energy. This would decrease the sustain of active defense making conservation more important. From there I would then remake a large number animations for high impact skills so that they are more reasonably reacted to as opposed to trying to maintain as many invincibility frames as possible and hoping to catch some of them.

If more endurance generation is needed add it in sources that can be countered. Such as skills that grant vigor when they connect. Counter of a counter I know but we aren’t talking about stat based counters, we are talking about playstyle.

Poxxia.1547:

Two classes stand out to me in this regard: Rangers and Thieves. Evades and dodges … and teleports to some degree is imho for these two ott.

Ranger has 2 evades, one with a slight delay time, and both on a 10+ sec cd.

Rangers have no burst. No, really, a 6k hit from a pet that can be kited 24/7 with swiftness is not burst.

Rangers outlast, and if you don’t give them the tools to outlast, they are useless. Because they don’t do any damage besides conditions — which take time to kill vs. thief.

Yeah this is one thing you definitely notice even more playing as a warrior/necro.

pot.6805:

Yeah this is one thing you definitely notice even more playing as a warrior/necro.

At least as a warrior you can bring the horn and get vigor+weakness. 10 sec vigor 20 sec cd ability, for about 50% vigor uptime. 6 sec aoe weakness they will be buffing soon. The warhorn also clears cripple/immobilize/chill.

Zenith.7301:

Poxxia.1547:

Two classes stand out to me in this regard: Rangers and Thieves. Evades and dodges … and teleports to some degree is imho for these two ott.

Ranger has 2 evades, one with a slight delay time, and both on a 10+ sec cd.

Rangers have no burst. No, really, a 6k hit from a pet that can be kited 24/7 with swiftness is not burst.

Rangers outlast, and if you don’t give them the tools to outlast, they are useless. Because they don’t do any damage besides conditions — which take time to kill vs. thief.

First: I play a ranger (along with other classes) … even if my main is now a guardian.
I consider S/D viable, and hence I can count 3: Hornet sting on 8s CD, Serpent’s strike on 15s CD and Stalker’s Strike on 10s CD (8s with Off-hand Training, which I consider a viable trait for BM when playing condi’s).
Not to mention how good HS+ML is at escaping for a skill on such short CD.

I think you hint at S/D-thieves … and I consider them more silly than rangers atm, so using them as measure for the viability of us, is not exactly the best imho.

Pets can idd be kited, but we can equally apply quite a bit of cripple. I don’t usually have that issue with pets hitting my target with the build I use atm, though. But apart from that: It is a whole different discussion. The fact, that we are tied to a rather stupid AI, doesn’t justify, that we have access to an excessive amount of evades … imho.

if we want to reduce the effectiveness of active defenses, then more high dps abilities must also be converted into skillshots with the AoE changes actually coming in. otherwise all we are arguing for is a reduction of TTK since damage is also ridiculously easy to deal in this game without the current access to defense.

dodge mechanic is fine!
there are enough skills to counter dodge and weapondodges
knockdown, knockback, immobilize, updraft, stund, daze…

also dont understand the thief and ranger have to much dodge qq!
its a THIEF and its a RANGER
thief is stealth or dodge for dont die and ranger have to dodge for dont die fast
if you whant to remove this dodge on them, then you should better write “remove this classes”
or do you whant have freekill rangers and thiefs? dont know?

its not so hard to kill a bm ranger with 2 dps builds fast
also the s/d thief can be killed in teamfight when u give him a well
immobilize, updraft, whatever

KarlaGrey.5903:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qehdmw1xRjo

Yea, dodge, vigor, evades, teleports, stealth, ym are fine.
Perfectly. Fine.

Inb4 l2p

Yeah people in high end tpvp use thieves to bunker now, just like in the video.

Zenith.7301:

pot.6805:

Yeah this is one thing you definitely notice even more playing as a warrior/necro.

At least as a warrior you can bring the horn and get vigor+weakness. 10 sec vigor 20 sec cd ability, for about 50% vigor uptime. 6 sec aoe weakness they will be buffing soon. The warhorn also clears cripple/immobilize/chill.

I can tell you haven’t played a warrior much in pvp. You will feel so naked in spvp without having a shield. I had no stun and no block and the vigor did not make up for that. Warhorn is a wvw weapon only for me and many other warriors.

Yes.

What’s next ? someone forgot protection, i believe.

Some professions need the extra vigor though, as part of their defense mechanism. Reduce it, and you need to give the professions that rely on it something in exchange, which would result in a lot of reworking. I wouldn’t talk what is in abundance and what not, as it is too huge a subject.

The answer:
Remove all damage sources in the game, THEN remove vigor as it won’t be necessary anymore, and we have a fine flower power game with no violence, just epic frolicking in the fields.