Guild Wars 2

stof.9341:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

That would have been a good point if most sources of conditions were not no-CD auto attacks or persistent ground AoEs.

The fact is that condition damage specs are the only viable specs right now because there are so many ways to counter/avoid direct damage.

If condition damage did not do the ridiculous amount of damage it does now nothing would die. It has gotten to this state because of a fundamental flaw within the game. That is that there are no skillshots in this game, as a result high direct damage leads to QQ (eg. Oh no! Eviscerate does too much damage! Heartseaker does too much damage!). What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

as a player who normally plays fighting games or action games likeDark Souls, i hate it when i want to dodge but I’m out of endurance. i think we should get far more dodges.

those other games make this work by doing stuff like:
At the end of a dodge you are even more vulnerable. (ie. you can’t block, you are easily backstabbed, et,)

dodging has a tradeoff, it uses a resource that could otherwise be spent on offense. (eg. dodge cancels use super meter)

i’d like to see gw2 move away from the mmo style cooldown model and instead adopt a more action style model where your abilities can always be used, but you don’t always want to use them because there is some risk or cost.

that’s a bit far fetched, so something less ambitious:
everyone gets reduced damage if their endurance is less than 100%. damage is reduced even more if you have less than 50%.

there, you now have an incentive to not dodge randomly and keep your endurance maxed. optimally you will only dodge if you really need to avoid something big.

or another idea that’s more fun:
you can spend 100 endurance to boost your next skill somehow. (ie. “ex attacks” from fighting games.) the boosted skill gains new properties, such as invul time, better damage, more projectiles, lower cooldown, etc.

Geff.1930:

What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

In high condition dmg builds:

Burn = ~700 dmg/sec
Bleed = ~120 dmg/sec/stack

Eviscerate = instant cast 300 range leap

Now if you’ve played recently against a warrior with boon hate and were playing a boon heavy build then you know Eviscerate will take anywhere from 6k to 10k of your HP in a single shot.

So now, can you please tell me how a single tick of burn damage or even 10 ticks of bleed damage equates to 6-10k worth of damage in a single second?

Lordrosicky.5813:

So what people are starting to realise is that:

1, Dodging is awesome. It makes you invulnerable.
2, Vigor is AMAZING – more dodges = more invulnerablity and it turns out invuln is pretty good. – double the up time on being invulnable with this boon seems good right?
3, Turns out weapon skills which do damage AND evade attacks are pretty good as well. You know, being invulnerable is pretty good. Espicially when these skills have low/no cd.
4, Turns out that getting basically 2 seconds of invuln on weapon swap is good too. Amazing to think this!
5, Turns out when you stack perma vigor with endurance on weapon swap and evasion attack skills then you have a build which is really lame to fight against.

So now players have realised that should be about 6 months till anet realise and 6 more months till some minor patch. Ever wonder why this game is so dead pvp wise? Nobody watches it and nobody plays it. Fighting against thieves and rangers with 50%+ evade up time turns out it isn’t fun. Wow. Who woulda thought it.

Balance is one thing, having frustrating and lame game mechanics is entirely another. I am sure some players have fun on their powerful builds evading ALL attacks but turns out this isn’t fun to fight against. Lame game mechanics kill games 100x faster than balance does. Because if a game isn’t fun then people aren’t going to stick around. And let’s be honest, the little balance issues can be ignored if the game is fun akittens core. Perma-evasion isn’t fun. Especially when they kill you whilst perma evading – which they can because thieves/ranger pets still hit hard.

I am not saying s/d thieves or bm rangers are OP. That doesn’t matter. I AM saying they aren’t fun in the slightest to fight against. The amount of evasion you get with perma vigor, energy sigils and evasion attacks is absurd. Energy sigils are the least important of these.

O but they intend to buff weakness so more people use it? Well necros wont. The necro skill for weakness is very poor and slow to hit. Also the small issue of having to hit a perma evading class (who all have condi cleanse too btw) to put the weakness on them.

Then there is the laughable necro GM trait which gives a tiny amount of weakness when you crit. The crit chance is only 25% (lol) AND most crucially any condition necro who would benefit from this has weapons with awful rates of fire. I worked out weakness up time (with no cleanses) would still be not alot.

tl;dr – Perma evasion isn’t fun. But don’t expect any changes soon. This game is fail

I imagine if you were winning the fight you wouldn’t be having a problem with evasion.

But I do find it hilarious you think this game does poorly in terms of viewers and people playing based entirely on Evasion of the Ranger (which wasn’t used for a very long time in TPvP) and Thieves, which only just recently got buffs to S/D which caused them to really start using that ability that allowed Evasion……But yes.. That must be why its doing so poorly grin

Just come out and say what you’re wanting to say..You’re a Necro, you lost to a Thief and/or Ranger in a 1v1, and its time to cry about it.

I think the whole thing about using condition vs. evasion can be summed up in one sentence:

Conditions need to hit first before they take effect.

Seriously. Weakness can’t be a counter to dodging because they’ll just dodge the weakness. In any instance where they don’t dodge the weakness, they can then cleanse the weakness.

Geff.1930:

stof.9341:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

That would have been a good point if most sources of conditions were not no-CD auto attacks or persistent ground AoEs.

The fact is that condition damage specs are the only viable specs right now because there are so many ways to counter/avoid direct damage.

If condition damage did not do the ridiculous amount of damage it does now nothing would die. It has gotten to this state because of a fundamental flaw within the game. That is that there are no skillshots in this game, as a result high direct damage leads to QQ (eg. Oh no! Eviscerate does too much damage! Heartseaker does too much damage!). What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

But you don’t see? There is little to no skill shots because the onus is on the receiver that has to dodge the high powered attacks.

If there was far far far fewer ways to dodge, ANet would have made the strong attacks harder to land in the first place to make the game less lethal.

Shar.3402:

there is no such things as “a lucky roll that saves them from all my burst omg”
when you want to burst someone, immobilize him or count his dodges, or bait a dodge with a fake-cast

dodge and vigor are fine.

I dare you to immobilize an S/D Acrobatics Thief for longer than 1 millisecond, THEN I dare you to count his dodges.

Geff.1930:

stof.9341:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

That would have been a good point if most sources of conditions were not no-CD auto attacks or persistent ground AoEs.

The fact is that condition damage specs are the only viable specs right now because there are so many ways to counter/avoid direct damage.

If condition damage did not do the ridiculous amount of damage it does now nothing would die. It has gotten to this state because of a fundamental flaw within the game. That is that there are no skillshots in this game, as a result high direct damage leads to QQ (eg. Oh no! Eviscerate does too much damage! Heartseaker does too much damage!). What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

Speaking of which, I QQ all the time about conditions being too easy to apply by most classes. There is no way in hell a Ranger should be able to stack 25 stacks of bleed in under 5 seconds just using a Ranged Autoattack WHILE having burn (the most overpowered condition in the game imo), when a Necromancer can’t even come close to 25 bleeds popping every single one of his utilities/weapon skills (and then it gets cleansed). It’s incredibly unbalanced when you really look at it.

I realized how truly strong conditions were on specific classes a long time ago when I found out why I couldn’t run an extreme glass cannon relying entirely on skill to avoid physical damage.

Take dodging out of autoattacks, put a much higher cooldown on skills that have a dodge component in them or provide invulnerability

Bam dodging now working as it’s intended

As it is now some builds just have ridiculous uptimes on invulnerability.

Jzaku.9765:

Take dodging out of autoattacks, put a much higher cooldown on skills that have a dodge component in them or provide invulnerability

Bam dodging now working as it’s intended

As it is now some builds just have ridiculous uptimes on invulnerability.

Putting an evade on a skill with no cooldown will cause issues like that.

Xsorus.2507:

I imagine if you were winning the fight you wouldn’t be having a problem with evasion.

But I do find it hilarious you think this game does poorly in terms of viewers and people playing based entirely on Evasion of the Ranger (which wasn’t used for a very long time in TPvP) and Thieves, which only just recently got buffs to S/D which caused them to really start using that ability that allowed Evasion……But yes.. That must be why its doing so poorly grin

Just come out and say what you’re wanting to say..You’re a Necro, you lost to a Thief and/or Ranger in a 1v1, and its time to cry about it.

This game is fail because its dumbed down garbage where everyone can be a super confusing immortal mega ninja. Looking at your signature i see why you are defending such a horrible mess of randomly assorted skills and traits that allow this many disgusting builds to exist after 10 months time.

It’s all one big blurry poo flinging contest with wannabe ninja chimps locked in a circular cage.

Lopez.7369:

Yes. Either vigor needs to be nerfed or access to vigor needs to be nerfed. Rangers and thieves in particular completely trivialize dodging, with non-necromancer classes not too far behind.

Its rather that these two professions have access to a range of abilities that also cause Evade. For example, Pistol Whip. While the flurry is going the Thief will evade attacks. And he has a bunch more abilities like that on various weapons. Same goes for the Ranger.

This is two professions having access to far above normal amounts of Evasion. Argue wether or not its balanced, but this isnt an issue of regular dodging or vigor.

Let me clarify my post then: Thieves and rangers are particularly absurd, but vigor is too accessible in general.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Shar.3402:

there is no such things as “a lucky roll that saves them from all my burst omg”
when you want to burst someone, immobilize him or count his dodges, or bait a dodge with a fake-cast

dodge and vigor are fine.

I dare you to immobilize an S/D Acrobatics Thief for longer than 1 millisecond, THEN I dare you to count his dodges.

More than that

YOU CAN EVADE AND TELEPORT WHILE IMMOBILIZED

hence, even that is useless against a thief and is more difficult to use against a ranger.

Getting immobilized as a moa when trying to hold a point is awesome.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Geff.1930:

stof.9341:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

That would have been a good point if most sources of conditions were not no-CD auto attacks or persistent ground AoEs.

The fact is that condition damage specs are the only viable specs right now because there are so many ways to counter/avoid direct damage.

If condition damage did not do the ridiculous amount of damage it does now nothing would die. It has gotten to this state because of a fundamental flaw within the game. That is that there are no skillshots in this game, as a result high direct damage leads to QQ (eg. Oh no! Eviscerate does too much damage! Heartseaker does too much damage!). What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

Speaking of which, I QQ all the time about conditions being too easy to apply by most classes. There is no way in hell a Ranger should be able to stack 25 stacks of bleed in under 5 seconds just using a Ranged Autoattack WHILE having burn (the most overpowered condition in the game imo), when a Necromancer can’t even come close to 25 bleeds popping every single one of his utilities/weapon skills (and then it gets cleansed). It’s incredibly unbalanced when you really look at it.

I realized how truly strong conditions were on specific classes a long time ago when I found out why I couldn’t run an extreme glass cannon relying entirely on skill to avoid physical damage.

The only way to stack 25 bleed stacks on a Ranger in under 5 seconds is to rely on your pet for some of those bleeds..

which will tic for 60 at most.

Terrahero.9358:

Lopez.7369:

Yes. Either vigor needs to be nerfed or access to vigor needs to be nerfed. Rangers and thieves in particular completely trivialize dodging, with non-necromancer classes not too far behind.

Its rather that these two professions have access to a range of abilities that also cause Evade. For example, Pistol Whip. While the flurry is going the Thief will evade attacks. And he has a bunch more abilities like that on various weapons. Same goes for the Ranger.

This is two professions having access to far above normal amounts of Evasion. Argue wether or not its balanced, but this isnt an issue of regular dodging or vigor.

If a Pistol Whip thief is giving you trouble… its you man.. its you….

Xsorus.2507:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Geff.1930:

stof.9341:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

You can dodge conditions. It’s very easy, you just need to dodge the attack that applies the bleed/burn/poison.

That would have been a good point if most sources of conditions were not no-CD auto attacks or persistent ground AoEs.

The fact is that condition damage specs are the only viable specs right now because there are so many ways to counter/avoid direct damage.

If condition damage did not do the ridiculous amount of damage it does now nothing would die. It has gotten to this state because of a fundamental flaw within the game. That is that there are no skillshots in this game, as a result high direct damage leads to QQ (eg. Oh no! Eviscerate does too much damage! Heartseaker does too much damage!). What people don’t realize is that a 10 stack bleed or a high condition build burn does more damage than eviscerate in the same amount of time it takes for eviscerate to land. Ofcourse, they don’t see the big numbers on screen and therefore do not QQ.

Speaking of which, I QQ all the time about conditions being too easy to apply by most classes. There is no way in hell a Ranger should be able to stack 25 stacks of bleed in under 5 seconds just using a Ranged Autoattack WHILE having burn (the most overpowered condition in the game imo), when a Necromancer can’t even come close to 25 bleeds popping every single one of his utilities/weapon skills (and then it gets cleansed). It’s incredibly unbalanced when you really look at it.

I realized how truly strong conditions were on specific classes a long time ago when I found out why I couldn’t run an extreme glass cannon relying entirely on skill to avoid physical damage.

The only way to stack 25 bleed stacks on a Ranger in under 5 seconds is to rely on your pet for some of those bleeds..

which will tic for 60 at most.

Even without the pet, I can make due with Sharpening Stone and Traps. Besides, I don’t use Lynx anyway, I prefer Swamp Drake (Quite underrated, I dare say. I’ve seen it solo glass cannon Thieves and Mesmers)

Dodge is one of, if the the MAIN reason this game is so skill based. It would be absolutely disastrous to the quality and success of this game in PvP and as a whole if dodge were to be removed or messed with as you suggest.

Classes with addition endurance regen through vigor/traits require it as part of their PvP survivability balance, this is blatantly obvious. Please take a moment to actually consider how quickly and easily you would simply demolish those rangers/ele’s in your example as a full shatter Mesmer if you remove their main source of defense. This eventuality would not be balanced, nor fun.

You will get used to timing your attacks and baiting dodges as your skill improves, don’t stress too soon.

Brew Pinch.5731:

Dodge is one of, if the the MAIN reason this game is so skill based. It would be absolutely disastrous to the quality and success of this game in PvP and as a whole if dodge were to be removed or messed with as you suggest.

When dodging is both readily available (as it is for the professions that are being discussed here) and incentivized with additional benefits (heal, damage to opponents, condi remove, protection, etc) there is nothing “skill based” about burining a dodge every few seconds. It detracts from the skill requirement when it is made so accessible, because it simply becomes a rotational use. The biggest offenders have to use a dodge every so often, even when not targeted, in order to be playing at optimum efficiency. This is not skill.

Brew Pinch.5731:

Classes with addition endurance regen through vigor/traits require it as part of their PvP survivability balance, this is blatantly obvious. Please take a moment to actually consider how quickly and easily you would simply demolish those rangers/ele’s in your example as a full shatter Mesmer if you remove their main source of defense. This eventuality would not be balanced, nor fun.

You are suggesting that not only is the additional dodging necessary, but that it is balanced/well done? Shatter Mesmer is still one of the offenders on this as they can have 2 semi-stunbreakers on weapon skills in addition to 20% up time. This lets them invenst prettymuch entirely into offense in terms of atts without being completely unsurvivable. This is neither balanced, nor well done, nor necessary. If you go full offense on any class you should squish like a freakin grape.

Brew Pinch.5731:

You will get used to timing your attacks and baiting dodges as your skill improves, don’t stress too soon.

Fantastic. A “L2P” argument. No one is stressing “too soon”. 10 months+ after release is an appropriate time to be irritated with a persistent problem like this.

Well, put all the argument aside, please tell us how to survive as an Eles while we are not as healthy as Warrior, not as tanky as Guardian, not as mobile as thief nor as burst dam kittenter. We are squishy as a Fish, deal dams as wet noodle, with Health pool as low as a joke whilst being forced into meele. So please tell us Eles how to survive with the idea??

Ele really isn’t one of the problem classes. Most eles get by just fine with just the vigor on crit trait and do not excessivly stack other forms of endurance regen (such as the sigils or other traits) and do not have multiple low cd passive evade skills. Why does everyone get so defensive about thier class even when an argument is not even dirrected at it. Jeez

While it is true that classes like thief and ranger rely on evades for defense (in contrast to a warrior’s high base stats or an ele’s many heals) it does not mean that the current state of endurance refill stacking + low (or no) cd evades is balance OR even fun to play against/play (matter of opinion blah blah). It’s too strong; the ways a class can gain endurance need to be limited along and skills the passivly evade need to be put on longer CDs. Of coarse it would then be fine to buff other aspects of skills that passivly evade in order to make them more than skills that are mashed off CD when your edurance is low.

Nerf vigor (both the boon and access to it), edurance on swap mods, and passive evade skills plox.

Stealth.9324:

Well, put all the argument aside, please tell us how to survive as an Eles while we are not as healthy as Warrior, not as tanky as Guardian, not as mobile as thief nor as burst dam kittenter. We are squishy as a Fish, deal dams as wet noodle, with Health pool as low as a joke whilst being forced into meele. So please tell us Eles how to survive with the idea??

I bet Ele will survive also without the dodge spamming-vigor.
It’s not like he has the best heals and condition removals in the game, a fair amount of evades on the weapon set and some nasty defensive skill (see Auras).

evade evade evade evade evade evade evade

sorrow.2364:

Stealth.9324:

Well, put all the argument aside, please tell us how to survive as an Eles while we are not as healthy as Warrior, not as tanky as Guardian, not as mobile as thief nor as burst dam kittenter. We are squishy as a Fish, deal dams as wet noodle, with Health pool as low as a joke whilst being forced into meele. So please tell us Eles how to survive with the idea??

I bet Ele will survive also without the dodge spamming-vigor.
It’s not like he has the best heals and condition removals in the game, a fair amount of evades on the weapon set and some nasty defensive skill (see Auras).

Tbh much of the heal and cond removals comes from dodging.. in water :P
But people dont think it through that much.Less dodging for everyone would also mean easier time landing the ele burst like phoenix/firegrab and perhaps dt with using other ccs than updraft!! Plus as you said eles defence isnt exclusive to dodging so massive nerfs to that aspect wont affect it as much as it would affect some other classes that eles have problem with like bombs engie with perma vigor /elixir r refilling ednurance and bm ranger!

Siric.3589:

Ele really isn’t one of the problem classes. Most eles get by just fine with just the vigor on crit trait and do not excessivly stack other forms of endurance regen (such as the sigils or other traits) and do not have multiple low cd passive evade skills. Why does everyone get so defensive about thier class even when an argument is not even dirrected at it. Jeez

While it is true that classes like thief and ranger rely on evades for defense (in contrast to a warrior’s high base stats or an ele’s many heals) it does not mean that the current state of endurance refill stacking + low (or no) cd evades is balance OR even fun to play against/play (matter of opinion blah blah). It’s too strong; the ways a class can gain endurance need to be limited along and skills the passivly evade need to be put on longer CDs. Of coarse it would then be fine to buff other aspects of skills that passivly evade in order to make them more than skills that are mashed off CD when your edurance is low.

Nerf vigor (both the boon and access to it), edurance on swap mods, and passive evade skills plox.

I am not being defensive, but any form of nerf is unwelcomed, if not at all whether it is directed or not. Everyone keep talking about balancing, but most likely ask nerf this, nerf that. How is it be fun to anyoneHow is it made everyone better How is it gonna help to make the game to be competitive?? Nerf Vigor, that is not a small nerf, it is a MASSIVE nerf. WAR Stun 100B now can 1 hit people, Thief BS kill in 1s,Mesmer burst down in less than 5s, etc… Pretty much the battle will ends in less than 5s. How is that entertaining to watch?? While I agree with you right now, some class takes ages to take down other class, but I also don’t see the point where everything ends so quickly either. My suggestion is to leave Vigor as it is, but take 1 or Evade from Weaponset and give every class got access to Vigor one way or another. Vigor is not the problem, the evade built in weapon set is the CORE of the problem.

Ele’s have good heals and other effects on dodge roll yes, but there is also internal CDs on it. The vigor on crit is enough for them to make full use of their on dodge abilities. Look at most good ele players, they either run battle or hydromancy/geomancy sigils. Some very tanky tripple cantrip players run enery sigils but it is not NEEDED to get the effectiveness out of evasive arcanum, they run energy sigils because of how broken spam dodge rolling is and they are trying to be as defenisive as possible.

Again, most top eles don’t run energy sigils and ele’s dont have abusive passive evade skills so I am failing to see how talking about nerfing abusive endurance/evasion mechanics hurts eles. If anything it is a huge buff as it will be MUCH easier to land fire combos in both S/D and D/D.

As for nerfs, nerfs are needed to avoid power creep. If you don’t understand why it is better for balance to nerf rather than buff the rest of the board then you should invest some time into reading and thinking about game balance. Vigor is an issue both in strengh and in access to it by some classes. What is worse? I would tend to think the easy access some classes have to vigor is the bigger problem, but it’s hard to tell without testing (that’s what the devs are here for…). Top end players will not just start falling over to 100b warriors because they don’t have infinate endurance you’re exagerating. What will happen is classes will need to save evades for things like 100b rather than spamming them to dodge anytime something shoots them an awkward look.

While it is true from what you said, but it goes both way. Other class also has easier time to land their burst as well. At this state, yes, we don’t need to run sigil of Energy since it is not needed, leave space for some diversity. But assume, Vigor got nerfed, then Eles will be forced to use Energy, leave no room for other choice. Then since Eles is the only class that can abuse this sigil the most, there will definitely be more QQ post about Eles being OP for being the class that has many dodges plus healing, ask for more nerf. How does it help?Then how does nerf Vigor will stop Thief spam skill 3 and Ranger S/D spam their skill to evade attack?? They don’t give Vigor at all?? Will it solve the problem at hand?Frankly put, no.

Reread some of my post, I may have gone off on a slight vigor tangent but I stated earlier that ranger, thief, and messmer(possibly) evades need to be nerfed heavily, energy runes should be removed, and lastly vigor needs adjusted.

Let me rephrase my opinion on vigor. Vigor, in it’s current form, is too strong for how easy it is to access it on most classes. Ele’s are not the main abusers of this as thier trait atleast isn’t a freebie 5 point minor trait. Either vigor should be a much more rare boon that takes heavy investment to get or it should be nerfed a bit OR a combination of both. There are many ways to skin the vigor cat. /end vigor rant.

Vigor is an issue but I do agree it should be the last to be adjusted. Enegry sigils and evasive skills are the bigger issue.

Dodging as a Necromancer is precious. very rarely is vigor ever applied, and if it is the cooldown for it is 60s or given by a friend. Sigil of Energy sometimes are something that are very nice to me because of it. Give us vigor, and we probably would have an easier time out on the field. But, sadly its already been stated by devs that this will not be happening, leaving Necro as the only class with such limited access. (If anyone is wondering how we get it, its via Well of Power. basically need to convert bleeding and chilled to vigor)

As a ranger vigor im fine with being nerfed, but you start removing our evasive skills, you’re removing the very survivability rangers will have, do keep in mind our pet dmg is getting nerfed next patch and if this were to take effect as well? Rangers would never want to run in a pvp match again as they’ll simply be sitting ducks.

Also keep in mind rangers don’t get stealth they can use half-hazardly and we on’t get clones that keep a target off of us like a mesmer. We have our weapons, everyone gets their own way of evading/dodging attacks. Rangers need the evasion on weapon sets, it’s just crucial to survivability else we’ll be sitting ducks.

It’s not enough our entire elite can be gutted by a thief in one attack and by mesmers as well with one utility, not to mention our entangling roots you can simply walk through with the immob clearing.

We don’t get access to boons like any other class, we don’t get stealth , and we don’ get clones. WE have regen and evasion. We don’t even have the dmg burst as our coefficients aren’t the same as any other class because of our pet, which again, is getting nerfed.

Vigor , i never traited in as a ranger and I have to use dodge effectively or I’m screwed against good players.

So… youy will have warriors’survivability, then?XD

(well, you’d still have protection…)

I’m fine with nerfing protection, when you start taking away evasion on weapon sets for us, you’re gutting a mechanic we NEED. That’s all. Also warriors get blocks , evasion on weapon sets too , what’s your point here? I’m fine with nerfing boons because we hardly have access to most ANYWAY, but talk of taking away our evasion on weapon sets is the issue.

Also, warriors are getting major buffs this balance patch which will help warriors handle conditions better and stay on targets better, rangers aren’t.

Evasion skills don’t need to be removed. The CD’s need to be increased and the skills themselves made more impactful. A good example of a well degisned evasive skill is ele’s updraft. Its a kockback, swiftness, and evade, but on a long CD. Eles dont spam this skill to evade when endurance is low, they use it for setting up combos and for coutnering burst ect.

It shouldn’t be the case that rangers have 50% endurance regen, High Vigor upkeep, sigilis of energy, and low cd evasive skills. As it is right now evasive skills are used in the small window that you’re not dodge roll spamming. Rather than evasion skills being used in reaction to a read you get off your oppenent they are just used to fill the gaps that you cant dodge.

And nerfing vigor / sigil of energy would eliminate that , it wold make those low cd’s justifiable and they would be forced to use them strategically – you also have to trait for those low CD’s. Also dagger is all defense , no offensive damage at all and most rangers are bunker anyway, lol.

You immobilize/chill a ranger, he’s a much easier ranger,

Ask any mesmer
Ask any engineer
Ask any warrior
Ask any elementalist
Ask any necro

You take away our low cd evasion, you’re just going to ruin the class as our coefficients don’t put people into defensive mode like other class damage does. With pet nerf, it’s already going to make it to where people will be able to tank the pet, ignore them and go straight for the ranger which is what the crybabies want.

Siric.3589:

Evasion skills don’t need to be removed. The CD’s need to be increased and the skills themselves made more impactful. A good example of a well degisned evasive skill is ele’s updraft. Its a kockback, swiftness, and evade, but on a long CD. Eles dont spam this skill to evade when endurance is low, they use it for setting up combos and for coutnering burst ect.

It shouldn’t be the case that rangers have 50% endurance regen, High Vigor upkeep, sigilis of energy, and low cd evasive skills. As it is right now evasive skills are used in the small window that you’re not dodge roll spamming. Rather than evasion skills being used in reaction to a read you get off your oppenent they are just used to fill the gaps that you cant dodge.

If you want them to change the CD and nerf everything to do with our tank, give us more damage to make up for the lose of tank.

Reason we need the heavy tanking skills is we DO NO DAMAGE…..

Sol.4310:

If you want them to change the CD and nerf everything to do with our tank, give us more damage to make up for the lose of tank.

Reason we need the heavy tanking skills is we DO NO DAMAGE…..

for a bunker, bm ranger sustain is quite OP. High evasion, OK pet damage, and good healing make the bm ranger quite OP.

I can draw a decent bunker guard but I cannot draw a decent bm ranger with a warrior

When the balance patch comes, I can agree with your statement

Sol.4310:

Siric.3589:

Evasion skills don’t need to be removed. The CD’s need to be increased and the skills themselves made more impactful. A good example of a well degisned evasive skill is ele’s updraft. Its a kockback, swiftness, and evade, but on a long CD. Eles dont spam this skill to evade when endurance is low, they use it for setting up combos and for coutnering burst ect.

It shouldn’t be the case that rangers have 50% endurance regen, High Vigor upkeep, sigilis of energy, and low cd evasive skills. As it is right now evasive skills are used in the small window that you’re not dodge roll spamming. Rather than evasion skills being used in reaction to a read you get off your oppenent they are just used to fill the gaps that you cant dodge.

If you want them to change the CD and nerf everything to do with our tank, give us more damage to make up for the lose of tank.

Reason we need the heavy tanking skills is we DO NO DAMAGE…..

I dont want them to nerf everyting to do with soley RANGER tank. This whole tread has nothing to do with 1 specfic class, rather evasion spam builds in general. If any class is lacking after the balance so be it, bring it back up by other means. Play another class until then. You don’t see players in moba’s not change champion pools after major balance, why would it be different here? To not change unbalanced, poorly designed, mechanics just because a class xyz might be weak for a patch or two is absurd.

Sol.4310:

If you want them to change the CD and nerf everything to do with our tank, give us more damage to make up for the lose of tank.

Reason we need the heavy tanking skills is we DO NO DAMAGE…..

No. It’s because tanking is overpowered, so there is no point to run something which is less performing.

Buffing damage to compensate the tank build nerf will make another OP build raise. Balance doesn’t exactly works like that.

Ranger damage isn’t overall bad. Point is that tanking is better, period.

This post is rather stupid you can’t remove the hard dodge, you say rangers have to little of a CD on there skills, well take look at engineer’s they can lay a smoke bomb that lasts 5 seconds that’s more then all our dodge chains. Go take look at it’s cool down.

Take look at mesmers they can jump around like no tomorrow.

Sol.4310:

This post is rather stupid you can’t remove the hard dodge, you say rangers have to little of a CD on there skills, well take look at engineer’s they can lay a smoke bomb that lasts 5 seconds that’s more then all our dodge chains. Go take look at it’s cool down.

Take look at mesmers they can jump around like no tomorrow.

The difference between mesmers, engis, and ranger is that mesmers and engi’s take proper timing to pull off their invulns/cc, ranger can just spam evades with his eyes closed and be essentially immune to damage forever.

Zodian.6597:

Sol.4310:

This post is rather stupid you can’t remove the hard dodge, you say rangers have to little of a CD on there skills, well take look at engineer’s they can lay a smoke bomb that lasts 5 seconds that’s more then all our dodge chains. Go take look at it’s cool down.

Take look at mesmers they can jump around like no tomorrow.

The difference between mesmers, engis, and ranger is that mesmers and engi’s take proper timing to pull off their invulns/cc, ranger can just spam evades with his eyes closed and be essentially immune to damage forever.

I wouldnt call that OP. If the ranger is dodging forever they are doing no damage.

However, Anet already solved that problem by introducing pets. The pet kill me more often than the player. Ranger can kite forever and add cripple and other traps to make their pet in a better position to attack me while they practically miss most of the shots and take less than 1/5 of my health. No, its not because I am a horrible player but rangers have too much sustain. I play a melee class which means I cannot kite a pet. There will be a few seconds in which the pet have a chance to attack due to skill root. The pet does too much damage

The joke is that the ranger is across the map dodging and doing little damage with the pet is gnawing another player face off.

The build you guys are talking about is used for holding the home point or 1v1, its designed for that job. So if you want to take it down take a spec that is built for beating it.

E.g. boon stealing thief, most rangers only have limited amount of boons Vigor/Regen steal them and you take away fairly large amount of our regen, most will run SoR or RoA you can steal our RoA and you can kill SoR really fast.

Only bad players die to our pet. Here is a tip, almost every single BM/Bunker ranger only has 3 seconds of chill and 6 seconds of cripple and that’s on the same weapon set. That’s about all the CC we have on a BM build, now we don’t have perma swiftness we only have 25% speed boost so if you have swiftness our pet should never hit you unless your shocking with condition remove and don’t understand how to kite someone.

And unless your setup to take a BM/Bunker on don’t try wait for your team mate and murder him cause they won’t win 2v1.

Most Phant mesmers will beat a BM/Bunker 1v1, a good engineer will beat the BM/Bunker 1v1 or kick him off the point and cap it which is what you want right.

Only classes I know that have problems are Necro’s and thats not all necro’s I’ve seen some really good ones take down bm/bunker 1v1, well warriors and they getting buff next patch so what hell you complaining about.

Everyone want’s rangers to be a easy kill again and be uttly useless again in TPvP.

Fact is most of you need to learn the ranger class better find it’s weak points and abuse them….

Sol.4310:

The build you guys are talking about is used for holding the home point or 1v1, its designed for that job. So if you want to take it down take a spec that is built for beating it.

E.g. boon stealing thief, most rangers only have limited amount of boons Vigor/Regen steal them and you take away fairly large amount of our regen, most will run SoR or RoA you can steal our RoA and you can kill SoR really fast.

Only bad players die to our pet. Here is a tip, almost every single BM/Bunker ranger only has 3 seconds of chill and 6 seconds of cripple and that’s on the same weapon set. That’s about all the CC we have on a BM build, now we don’t have perma swiftness we only have 25% speed boost so if you have swiftness our pet should never hit you unless your shocking with condition remove and don’t understand how to kite someone.

And unless your setup to take a BM/Bunker on don’t try wait for your team mate and murder him cause they won’t win 2v1.

Most Phant mesmers will beat a BM/Bunker 1v1, a good engineer will beat the BM/Bunker 1v1 or kick him off the point and cap it which is what you want right.

Only classes I know that have problems are Necro’s and thats not all necro’s I’ve seen some really good ones take down bm/bunker 1v1, well warriors and they getting buff next patch so what hell you complaining about.

Everyone want’s rangers to be a easy kill again and be uttly useless again in TPvP.

Fact is most of you need to learn the ranger class better find it’s weak points and abuse them….

exactly this.

ah and this game have btw
knockdown, knockback, updraft, immobilize, daze, stuns and interrupts.
maybe start use them vs dodge builds and o wonder, they will die fast

why the hell you should be able to spam your attack skills without brain
but at same time the ranger should not be able to dodge them with brain, because he have to react?!
most here should better practise and start use there dmg skills at right time and start fake some dmg combos to distract the much dodge classes!
i know some rly good shatter mesmers who know how to fake and shatter the bm right, so he cant know rly when the shatter dmg is coming.
at least the ranger win the 1vs1, but it takes long time and heal use vs good mesmer is need then.
and when help for mesmer is comming the ranger can start run away because 2vs1 is not fun with “evade spam”. its also not fun with well evade use.

at least i think, the problem is the players, not the build
better practise vs builds you loose much, instead of QQ at forums.
its better time use.
i just think most of the ppls just dont know the ranger skills…
i have also much ppls in my fl in high ranked pvp which dont know the ranger skills well.

and this op qq is always the same stupid kitten…
let the meta do the job… its allrdy enough counters for bm ranger found.

here are most time the same ppls whining about what is so bad at this game…
and o wonder, i dont find them at the ladder (well bad point, but maybe they should be at min ~place 500, when they are speak about what is op and what not)

and why never see a topic what is good at this game?!
because what is rly good at this game is the kittening fast fighting and
to be able to dodge.
all whiner should go for round based rpgs, there is no “dodge spam” and no “attack spam”

well “dodge spam” and “attack spam” is also just in soloq and hot join in gw2…
and most QQ ppls are from hot join, wvw or soloq… always same when i try to find such guys at ladder

sry hard words. but just hate this “the build is op” kittenstorm when ppls loose vs other players…
never any one start to think about “oh the other player maybe is better player?”
“no never, his build is lame, he is just a bob with noob build”…

Oidmetala.8426:

ah and this game have btw
knockdown, knockback, updraft, immobilize, daze, stuns and interrupts.
maybe start use them vs dodge builds and o wonder, they will die fast

I see, we have it all wrong here. Please tell me where to sign up for the knockdowns, knockbacks, immobilizes, dazes, and stuns that cannot be dodged AND prevent the use of the dodges on weapon skills both.

Don’t try to make something of this conversation that it is not. CC is a killer for everything in this game. It is actually less effective (particularly daze) on the types of builds being discussed here. If you don’t understand that and can’t make meaningful input to the discussion rather than raging at the people having a civilized, intelligent discussion, then take your ball and go home.

i dont need a intelligent input for such a stupid topic…
because its a learn to play problem you dodge qq guys have here

and maybe…
you waste only time on “intelligent discussion”
instead playing and training how to play this game

just talking guys, not playing guys here…
always the same names qq about anything
dont get it
this qq was start after release and much no need nerfs was comming for your
kittenstorm topics

Oidmetala.8426:

i dont need a intelligent input for such a stupid topic…
because its a learn to play problem you dodge qq guys have here

and maybe…
you waste only time on “intelligent discussion”
instead playing and training how to play this game

just talking guys, not playing guys here…
always the same names qq about anything
dont get it
this qq was start after release and much no need nerfs was comming for your
kittenstorm topics

Thanks for making such a well thought out counter point.

Where do people get the notion that because a build can be killed, or has limited counters, that said build is therefore balanced and/or healthy for the game? Any of the evasion spam builds (not just bunker BM ranger) hurt the game. They diminish the impact a good, well time, properly executed dodge roll should have on this game by spamming thier dime-a-dozen evades off cool down with little reguard for other players actions; and when a good player who does pay attention and not just spam get thier hands on the build the results are even more broken.

This isn’t a L2P or a class discussion. If you can explain to us how spamming dodge rolls being effective is good for the game, then by all means do. But you wont be able to, the best argument you will be able to put up will likely be something to do with class ABCD being too weak without spam evades, it doesn’t matter in the scope of this discusion. Classes can be buffed, letting unhealthy mechanics stay in the game for the sake of keeping a class from being unviable for 1-2 months is a terrible way to think about game balance.

Counter to Vigor is Weakness. Use it.

so bunker beastmaster hurts the game…
well i dont see much bm rangers hurt the game when i play with my team on ladder rank ~100… (no im leaved my bm ranger, im back on bunker guardian because ranger is not so good fot the team at tourny, thats my mind and my team dont whant a ranger in team any more)

im so kittening happy when i see a team which waste a slot for a bm ranger.
and im so more happy when this bm ranger do the homepoint, i like the teamfights then.

this bm ranger build is nothing without the much dodge…
and dodge is rangers only strengh in this game, but he is joke at all other things
its like dodge attacks are the only good skills rangers have, what a joke
and its sounds here always like he can spam them all the time, thats not true

also this bm build is nothing in teamfight
and when you cant ninja neutralize enemy point as bm ranger you are also useless, because you cant kill nearly all enemy builds fast enough.
ah and when you get the neutralize vs bomb engi at your homepoint as bm ranger, you are again useless for the team. and you get it always vs bomb engi at the low point maps like forest, because you cant stay on point with this burning dmg

so, i dont know why so much ppls qq so hard because bm rangers like the trapper qq at past…
bm ranger is a 1vs1 bunker with a single target pet…
and in teamfight its the most big joke build.
i prefer bunker ele more then bunker ranger…

its one of the big fun moments, when a bm ranger try to kill our dmg ele in mid, when we defend our homepoint because enemy team dont attack mid after first loose…
hes like start circle run in element water and laugh loud on ts, well not so easy but nearly

ranger is a joke in this game, and ppls dont get it atm.
yes, you should not go 1vs1 him with much builds, thats true…
let him stay afk is good enough for the win, because he can only what u hate so much… evade
and when he is on your homepoint send a dps ele back is enough for troll him hard…
he will never get the point then.
for sure its important to keep an eye on enemy bm ranger when he is playing for your homepoint, but when your thief, ele, mes do it a bit he is outplayed…

you should think about what happen when ranger maybe become any dps build viable in future…
then he need this dodges because a dmg dealer ranger die so fast and dodge is hes survive mechanic, like water element, mistform, rtl, maybe port at ele;
port and stealth at thief; knockback and block at engi; port, blurred frenzy and f4 on mesmers, f1 and ulti at necro… and and
think game designer have think well about it!

i have played long time my offensive trapper on tourny when ppls was think ranger is freekill… it was same ranger qq after more ppls started to use the build like now with bm ranger
and then without nerf was need, trapper was gone, because ppls learned to kill him.
and now all whant back the freekill rangers or what you talking about here???
(how i remember this trapper qq topics, it was same fail)

i have 1,7k tournys with my ranger and 1,3k with my guaridan because ranger is joke on tourny.
think i know what i speak about when
i say ranger evade is no problem and not to strong

also s/d thief qq… i dont understand it…
i just take a scepter with my guardian now and use chains of light vs this dodges…
its so good skill for the team…
just say when i have it rdy and ask our dmg dealers when they are rdy for some knockdown, interrupt, stun and burst
yes in theory “thief just have to port out” but for this it work rly often atm for us.
in a teamfight the ppls have much time not always there “to strong evades” rdy
and a ranger at teamfight, well its an other topic
but he is for sure last targent, because, well he have no dmg
and he is fast to kitten after win the teamfight

this are the only 2 much dodge builds… and they are not op when you know to handle it, its like with every class.
also they die fast on condis, yes ranger too

dodge is for sure not to strong… at teamfight its hard to see all important animations for the right dodge time
and when u start random use it, you will die fast enoug…

and dodge role like its atm is important,
because dmg skills are also on low cooldown
and i like fast games!

well again for dodge haters, there are much round based role plays u can start to play…
but sure, there u cant spam your dmg combos too.
i think about this “intelligent” discussions
you should ask yourself, whats more bad, spam the dmg skills or spam the evade skills?
to spam the evade skills you have to react what the dmg spam player do