Guild Wars 2

That wall of text above isn’t worth reading. Trust me.

sorrow.2364:

That wall of text above isn’t worth reading. Trust me.

yes thats true
its nothing for soloq and hot join players

Oidmetala.8426:

HUGE WALL OF TEXT

So in all of ramble you didn’t once state why spam evading is healthy for the game or why its good to diminish the importance of a well time dodge roll by having the ablity to spam evades. All you did was call certain builds bad and talk about how much you kill them with your uber pro team. Again, just because you can kill something doesn’t mean it is balanced or healthy for the game.

@siric
oh, for sure, better you read again
maybe you find it where i have write why its important for the game

and i dont sayed our team is super pro
you talking rat.
i write rank because, its more important whats strong at pvp when its a
premade vs premade game in high ranked pvp

instead whats good on soloq or dont know what you guys talking abaout!

here again for you
“and dodge role like its atm is important,
because dmg skills are also on low cooldown
and i like fast games!”

and how u kitten think we can spam dodge on this game…
i prefer more dynamic and longer fights instead staying around like stones and cast spells… wtf man

So your logic is that because players can always use offensive skills that they should also be able to use defensive skills with little to no cd(evades/dodge). I see. Lets just put heal skills on 0 CD too so we have dynamic long team fights.

Oidmetala.8426:

…you talking rat.
…dont know what you guys talking abaout!
… wtf man

You have some holes in your logic, but you are right that these builds aren’t over the top in high level play. Here is the problem…

Balance can’t be based solely on high end games, because then the game becomes unfun for the majority of players that are not high level players.

People stop playing unfun games making the population smaller than it already is.

No one (or a very small number of people) watches tournaments for games that they don’t play.

If the population of GW2 continues to get smaller que times continue to get longer making the game even more unfun. Again, more people leave.

You are answering the wrong question when you say that the dodge spam builds are not OP. That is irrelevant. They are boring and enable passive gameplay that lowers the amount of skill required to be effective in general play (at high levels this is debatable but not in the majority of games which are more important to the game’s survival).

If you doubt that balancing for the majority of players rather than strictly the high end is important, then lets have a quick history lesson.

Bloodline Champions – By comparison to this game was flawlessly balanced for high level 3v3 play. It failed miserably in terms of mass market appeal and a lot of people never even heard of it.

League of Legends – Never approached anything remotely resembling balance at high levels and never can (too many variables), but is close enough in general play that tons of people love to play it and it is very successful for what it is with successful tournaments, casters, etc.

Not trying to pile on you bro. We just have a difference of opinion, and hopefully this illuminates my side for you.

Oidmetala.8426:

yes thats true
its nothing for soloq and hot join players

No, because it is only a barely-readible ranger rant with from poor to no logic behind it bringing pretty much nothing into the discussion.

I don’t care, as I think none do, how you think that evades are not important in high level play and how weak and joke-ish rangers are if you don’t give any kind of explaination or reasoning of what you say. Your personal experience isn’t really a reasoning. You’re just a random forum folk nobody knows like everybody here.
To my eyes, you can be also the most casual player in this world who enjoys to go rampant and elitist in the forums.

Also you completely missed the point of the whole topic, since it isn’t really tied to ranger in particular, but how vigor is easy to access to most profession and how dodge went from a precious resource to a spammable and noob-friendly defensive mechanic.

That’s why your huge wall of text isn’t worth reading.

sorrow.2364:

Oidmetala.8426:

yes thats true
its nothing for soloq and hot join players

No, because it is only a barely-readible ranger rant with from poor to no logic behind it bringing pretty much nothing into the discussion.

I don’t care, as I think none do, how you think that evades are not important in high level play and how weak and joke-ish rangers are if you don’t give any kind of explaination or reasoning of what you say. Your personal experience isn’t really a reasoning. You’re just a random forum folk nobody knows like everybody here.
To my eyes, you can be also the most casual player in this world who enjoys to go rampant and elitist in the forums.

Also you completely missed the point of the whole topic, since it isn’t really tied to ranger in particular, but how vigor is easy to access to most profession and how dodge went from a precious resource to a spammable and noob-friendly defensive mechanic.

That’s why your huge wall of text isn’t worth reading.

so at first i dont play bm ranger at tpvp, i dont care any more what anet do with this class, because ranger will be patched into ground for only reason all hate this class and dont know how to handle it. so my post is not to defend ranger how you think

where i have write evades are not important in high level play?
i have write evade is important and its most important for the ranger because its only good skills he have.
and thats why i think ranger is not so good in a tourny team, because its easy to play out. just dont give him the 1vs1 he whant. pet is only dmg and need to long for kill most builds… in this time the team have win the midfight what whould be nice
or they lost it and enemy team come back and kill this ranger at there home.

yes im random forum folk, and im happy about that to dont waste so much time like the guys you know meanwhile.
i prefer to play instead talk so much in forums.
but kitten topics like this makes me hate, and how you talk like knowing all classes and builds well and the game mechanic, no sry, but never
well look at eu ladder u find me there… so im not random hot join guy like you for this point…

and i dont missed the fail theme of this topic..
you guys whant less dodge for play your burst classes with less brain use…
you whant nobody can dodge your standard dmg combo… so u dont have to think how to attack enemy players… you dont whant to use the brain and think about what skills enemy player can use and dont look when the enemy player used his skills for attack with the burst at right time

Sol.4310:

The build you guys are talking about is used for holding the home point or 1v1, its designed for that job. So if you want to take it down take a spec that is built for beating it.

my problem is that it beating specs when it shouldnt

Only bad players die to our pet. Here is a tip, almost every single BM/Bunker ranger only has 3 seconds of chill and 6 seconds of cripple and that’s on the same weapon set. That’s about all the CC we have on a BM build, now we don’t have perma swiftness we only have 25% speed boost so if you have swiftness our pet should never hit you unless your shocking with condition remove and don’t understand how to kite someone.

when a good portion of your skilld root you in place and area is small. People get hit by pets more often than you think. Rangers have enough condition removal to make my weakness ineffective.
Note: I beat shatter mesmer by stacking weakness

And unless your setup to take a BM/Bunker on don’t try wait for your team mate and murder him cause they won’t win 2v1.

Most Phant mesmers will beat a BM/Bunker 1v1, a good engineer will beat the BM/Bunker 1v1 or kick him off the point and cap it which is what you want right.

Everyone want’s rangers to be a easy kill again and be uttly useless again in TPvP.

Fact is most of you need to learn the ranger class better find it’s weak points and abuse them….

No, i just want pet damage nerfed.

Bunker BM ranger is beating builds when it should draw instead.

Oidmetala.8426:

so at first i dont play bm ranger at tpvp, i dont care any more what anet do with this class, because ranger will be patched into ground for only reason all hate this class and dont know how to handle it. so my post is not to defend ranger how you think

where i have write evades are not important in high level play?
i have write evade is important and its most important for the ranger because its only good skills he have.
and thats why i think ranger is not so good in a tourny team, because its easy to play out. just dont give him the 1vs1 he whant. pet is only dmg and need to long for kill most builds… in this time the team have win the midfight what whould be nice
or they lost it and enemy team come back and kill this ranger at there home.

yes im random forum folk, and im happy about that to dont waste so much time like the guys you know meanwhile.
i prefer to play instead talk so much in forums.
but kitten topics like this makes me hate, and how you talk like knowing all classes and builds well and the game mechanic, no sry, but never
well look at eu ladder u find me there… so im not random hot join guy like you for this point…

and i dont missed the fail theme of this topic..
you guys whant less dodge for play your burst classes with less brain use…
you whant nobody can dodge your standard dmg combo… so u dont have to think how to attack enemy players… you dont whant to use the brain and think about what skills enemy player can use and dont look when the enemy player used his skills for attack with the burst at right time

No, man. No.
Nobody cares about what you are and what rank you have in the ladder, since having a high rank in the ladder does not mean you have a thinking brain and that you can see the situation without any bias.
One can just play its OP or FotM profession all the day long, getting tousands of tournament wins and, still, say “this game is perfectly fine, no need for balance as long as I play my profession”. So, better you keep playing instead of delighting us with such a pearl of worthlessness and forum rage.

The topic brings a real issue of this game, which is how vigor is easily available to most the professions and how dodging is cheap, which encourage spamming more than timing.
The topic isn’t more about rangers, as you understood, which makes dodging and evading one of their main defensive mechanics, than about Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers and Engineers who all gets perma vigor up allowing to spam dodges on demand. The title of the topic isn’t “nerf rangers”, neither “remove evades from rangers” or “rangers OP”.
The title is “Is dodge rolling too accessible?”, which pretty much sums up what the OP want us to discuss about.

About the latter part of your posts, your logic is kinda broken.
I don’t see how burst profession need to use twice the brain because dodge-tank professions can just spam their evades like no tomorrow. We don’t want burst professions to have easy life, we just want that evade-tanks needs to work as hard as burst professions to get the same results.

oh sorrow, but you have start with this..
well to bad

yes im play always just my op guardian and random dodge at midfight.
i dont finish ppls, also i dont clean condis from my team or safe them with aegis, i dont bubble enemys away from them, i also dont immobilize, rez or give any support to them… also i dont care about the point to dont get a neutralize.

no i just dodge around with my never ending vigor op guardian and never die.
vigor is so kittening op man… and this with only get vigor when i crit with my 5% chance as guardian

but yes, better we have not much dodge, because hgh engi and all the aoe should hit nearly all the time…
lol man i rly dont get what you whant to have, its like talking with a baby
you whant to say all bunker players are noobs or whats the reason of this topic?
maybe you are necro and whant more dodge too?

when you whant less dodge at all, then give me a real reason because why
and say me what to do against this much aoes and burst attacks then,
because they allrdy hit rly much time and they hit hard. i have not perma dodge rdy and i also use this 2 op energy runes.. just lol…
maybe we play different games, then sry for my messages
but you know when you are get a target above your little had, you should be happy about all dodges you have

i also dont talk about ranger, i talk about that vigor and dodge time is well balanced in this game, there is no change need.
and when i was speak about ranger then,
that ranger and thief are the only one who can dodge rly much, the other classes dont have “dodge spam”

just dont know why you dont start to play one of this mighty vigor specs

btw its a good idea with just play the main class 1000 tournament games…
you should do that, because its maybe enough to be able to handle nearly each situation with you class and feel safe with it

also dont get whats the real problem at this topic, because when all have vigor rdy, why its not fine then?

atm all classes are tournamet viable
only hard to go with is warrior

ah and i also whant more build viable, but less vigor or dodge at all is just lol…
also nerfs are fail… because nerfs are the reason why ppls stop to play this game…
buff bad builds whould make the game interesting

if anet is stupid enough to do a dodge or less vigor change,
then i look for next game where i can have fast and dynamic fights
dont need a slow stand around game

and pls stop read or understand my messages just like 50% sorrow…
your answers me things i have never write-.-
maybe my engl or your engl is to bad

Oidmetala.8426:

also dont get whats the real problem at this topic, because when all have vigor rdy, why its not fine then?

Necromancers are still looking for their vigor boon.

Are we passing around Vigor now? Can my fellow necromancers get a taste?

Oidmetala.8426:

oh sorrow, but you have start with this..
well to bad

yes im play always just my op guardian and random dodge at midfight.
i dont finish ppls, also i dont clean condis from my team or safe them with aegis, i dont bubble enemys away from them, i also dont immobilize, rez or give any support to them… also i dont care about the point to dont get a neutralize.

no i just dodge around with my never ending vigor op guardian and never die.
vigor is so kittening op man… and this with only get vigor when i crit with my 5% chance as guardian

but yes, better we have not much dodge, because hgh engi and all the aoe should hit nearly all the time…
lol man i rly dont get what you whant to have, its like talking with a baby
you whant to say all bunker players are noobs or whats the reason of this topic?
maybe you are necro and whant more dodge too?

when you whant less dodge at all, then give me a real reason because why
and say me what to do against this much aoes and burst attacks then,
because they allrdy hit rly much time and they hit hard. i have not perma dodge rdy and i also use this 2 op energy runes.. just lol…
maybe we play different games, then sry for my messages
but you know when you are get a target above your little had, you should be happy about all dodges you have

i also dont talk about ranger, i talk about that vigor and dodge time is well balanced in this game, there is no change need.
and when i was speak about ranger then,
that ranger and thief are the only one who can dodge rly much, the other classes dont have “dodge spam”

just dont know why you dont start to play one of this mighty vigor specs

btw its a good idea with just play the main class 1000 tournament games…
you should do that, because its maybe enough to be able to handle nearly each situation with you class and feel safe with it

also dont get whats the real problem at this topic, because when all have vigor rdy, why its not fine then?

atm all classes are tournamet viable
only hard to go with is warrior

ah and i also whant more build viable, but less vigor or dodge at all is just lol…
also nerfs are fail… because nerfs are the reason why ppls stop to play this game…
buff bad builds whould make the game interesting

if anet is stupid enough to do a dodge or less vigor change,
then i look for next game where i can have fast and dynamic fights
dont need a slow stand around game

and pls stop read or understand my messages just like 50% sorrow…
your answers me things i have never write-.-
maybe my engl or your engl is to bad

It’s mine.

loseridoit.2756:

Sol.4310:

The build you guys are talking about is used for holding the home point or 1v1, its designed for that job. So if you want to take it down take a spec that is built for beating it.

my problem is that it beating specs when it shouldnt

Only bad players die to our pet. Here is a tip, almost every single BM/Bunker ranger only has 3 seconds of chill and 6 seconds of cripple and that’s on the same weapon set. That’s about all the CC we have on a BM build, now we don’t have perma swiftness we only have 25% speed boost so if you have swiftness our pet should never hit you unless your shocking with condition remove and don’t understand how to kite someone.

when a good portion of your skilld root you in place and area is small. People get hit by pets more often than you think. Rangers have enough condition removal to make my weakness ineffective.
Note: I beat shatter mesmer by stacking weakness

And unless your setup to take a BM/Bunker on don’t try wait for your team mate and murder him cause they won’t win 2v1.

Most Phant mesmers will beat a BM/Bunker 1v1, a good engineer will beat the BM/Bunker 1v1 or kick him off the point and cap it which is what you want right.

Everyone want’s rangers to be a easy kill again and be uttly useless again in TPvP.

Fact is most of you need to learn the ranger class better find it’s weak points and abuse them….

No, i just want pet damage nerfed.

Bunker BM ranger is beating builds when it should draw instead.

Beating spec’s it shouldn’t means you got out played.

Getting rooted and dying to the condition/pet burst means you wasted your condition remove stupidly.

We will see how the pet damage nerf goes, wont change the fact people don’t kite or remove the right conditions. “Stop Sitting On The Point” rangers excel at close combat……..

Sol.4310:

Beating spec’s it shouldn’t means you got out played.

Getting rooted and dying to the condition/pet burst means you wasted your condition remove stupidly.

We will see how the pet damage nerf goes, wont change the fact people don’t kite or remove the right conditions. “Stop Sitting On The Point” rangers excel at close combat……..

ummm, no…. you dont know my spec

so you cannot comment on balance if you do not know it

I have 2 condition removals every 15 secs. I was not outplayed. I outplayed the opponent. At most they can only take away 1/5 of my health which is less than my heal.

The pet is the thing that killed me. No, I am fighting an OP spec. Of course, I will be killed. I draw guardians. I do not draw Ranger.

In fact, I have a better chance of killing a bunker guard than drawing a bunker bm ranger

loseridoit.2756:

Sol.4310:

Beating spec’s it shouldn’t means you got out played.

Getting rooted and dying to the condition/pet burst means you wasted your condition remove stupidly.

We will see how the pet damage nerf goes, wont change the fact people don’t kite or remove the right conditions. “Stop Sitting On The Point” rangers excel at close combat……..

ummm, no…. you dont know my spec

so you cannot comment on balance if you do not know it

I have 2 condition removals every 15 secs. I was not outplayed. I outplayed the opponent. At most they can only take away 1/5 of my health which is less than my heal.

The pet is the thing that killed me. No, I am fighting an OP spec. Of course, I will be killed. I draw guardians. I do not draw Ranger.

In fact, I have a better chance of killing a bunker guard than drawing a bunker bm ranger

I don’t mean to impose on your skill or anything like that I meant what I as a general comment, what I’m trying to get at is not all builds will counter all builds. You might have a solid spec and be good player, but there is no such thing as 1 build beats them all. There are fair few builds out there for classes that beat the BM/Bunker, none of this draw stuff.

So why not run them builds or them classes as they are the counter. If you can’t do it with your current build don’t try.

Also, if your drawing with someone on point fight your not being every effective to your team at all…. If anything your wasting your time fighting that point when you could be supporting your team and taking a different point.

Sol.4310:

\

I don’t mean to impose on your skill or anything like that I meant what I as a general comment, what I’m trying to get at is not all builds will counter all builds. You might have a solid spec and be good player, but there is no such thing as 1 build beats them all. There are fair few builds out there for classes that beat the BM/Bunker, none of this draw stuff.

So why not run them builds or them classes as they are the counter. If you can’t do it with your current build don’t try.

Also, if your drawing with someone on point fight your not being every effective to your team at all…. If anything your wasting your time fighting that point when you could be supporting your team and taking a different point.

my build is quite different. It bring group condition removal, aoe cc and enough dps to down any enemy.

I have to test it out with a premade team to understand my build in team effectiveness. however, I should be able to stand a chance on most 1 vs 1 encounters. To give you an idea of the horrible bm ranger i fought against and still lost, I traited my shield to reflect and most of them dont realize they are killing themselves until the end of the channel…..

my problem with the build is that damage is too high to be a bunker. I want the player to work at downing the enemy rather than the pet does it for them.

Oh well, I hope anet rework the class because they do not scale well against multiple enemies

Well I believe next patch they are nerfing the pet damage, which I’m fine with I don’t run BM build very often in TPvP, I hate having to camp home point all game.

So after that balance change hopefully things will change.

Oidmetala.8426:

oh sorrow, but you have start with this..
well to bad

yes im play always just my op guardian and random dodge at midfight.
i dont finish ppls, also i dont clean condis from my team or safe them with aegis, i dont bubble enemys away from them, i also dont immobilize, rez or give any support to them… also i dont care about the point to dont get a neutralize.

no i just dodge around with my never ending vigor op guardian and never die.
vigor is so kittening op man… and this with only get vigor when i crit with my 5% chance as guardian

but yes, better we have not much dodge, because hgh engi and all the aoe should hit nearly all the time…
lol man i rly dont get what you whant to have, its like talking with a baby
you whant to say all bunker players are noobs or whats the reason of this topic?
maybe you are necro and whant more dodge too?

when you whant less dodge at all, then give me a real reason because why
and say me what to do against this much aoes and burst attacks then,
because they allrdy hit rly much time and they hit hard. i have not perma dodge rdy and i also use this 2 op energy runes.. just lol…
maybe we play different games, then sry for my messages
but you know when you are get a target above your little had, you should be happy about all dodges you have

i also dont talk about ranger, i talk about that vigor and dodge time is well balanced in this game, there is no change need.
and when i was speak about ranger then,
that ranger and thief are the only one who can dodge rly much, the other classes dont have “dodge spam”

just dont know why you dont start to play one of this mighty vigor specs

btw its a good idea with just play the main class 1000 tournament games…
you should do that, because its maybe enough to be able to handle nearly each situation with you class and feel safe with it

also dont get whats the real problem at this topic, because when all have vigor rdy, why its not fine then?

atm all classes are tournamet viable
only hard to go with is warrior

ah and i also whant more build viable, but less vigor or dodge at all is just lol…
also nerfs are fail… because nerfs are the reason why ppls stop to play this game…
buff bad builds whould make the game interesting

if anet is stupid enough to do a dodge or less vigor change,
then i look for next game where i can have fast and dynamic fights
dont need a slow stand around game

and pls stop read or understand my messages just like 50% sorrow…
your answers me things i have never write-.-
maybe my engl or your engl is to bad

Man, you are talking about perma vigor given to professions like Guardian, Mesmers and Elementalists like they don’t have any other defensive mechanic.

It’s kinda ok when a Thief, which doesn’t really have any other defensive mechanics, have more dodges than other professions. But it is sad when Elementalists, with all their boons, damage mitigation skills and heals have their ridicolous access to vigor too. Same we can say about Mesmers (with their 20% invulnerability uptime thanks to BF), stealth, clones and boons or Guardians.

If you don’t see the problem, you might want to try out the Necromancer.

Nerf is not the reason of why people stop playing this game. Nerfs are the reason of why people keep playing it. Just imagine if Thieves did not get their nerfs. Hell, we would still see instagibs thieves all around tournaments, hotjoins and WvWvW. Nerfs are needed as are buffs. Your vision of balance is incredibly spoilt.

Fast dynamic doesn’t mean spamming dodges. Spamming dodges mean just… spamming dodges. It is harmful to the competitive side of this game.
The game needs to reward well timed dodges, not people who just get their endurance bar always empty and when dodges are that easy to access, they usually reward the latter kind of players.

Poxxia.1547:

Zenith.7301:

Poxxia.1547:

Two classes stand out to me in this regard: Rangers and Thieves. Evades and dodges … and teleports to some degree is imho for these two ott.

Ranger has 2 evades, one with a slight delay time, and both on a 10+ sec cd.

Rangers have no burst. No, really, a 6k hit from a pet that can be kited 24/7 with swiftness is not burst.

Rangers outlast, and if you don’t give them the tools to outlast, they are useless. Because they don’t do any damage besides conditions — which take time to kill vs. thief.

First: I play a ranger (along with other classes) … even if my main is now a guardian.
I consider S/D viable, and hence I can count 3: Hornet sting on 8s CD, Serpent’s strike on 15s CD and Stalker’s Strike on 10s CD (8s with Off-hand Training, which I consider a viable trait for BM when playing condi’s).
Not to mention how good HS+ML is at escaping for a skill on such short CD.

I think you hint at S/D-thieves … and I consider them more silly than rangers atm, so using them as measure for the viability of us, is not exactly the best imho.

Pets can idd be kited, but we can equally apply quite a bit of cripple. I don’t usually have that issue with pets hitting my target with the build I use atm, though. But apart from that: It is a whole different discussion. The fact, that we are tied to a rather stupid AI, doesn’t justify, that we have access to an excessive amount of evades … imho.

Hornet Sting has a delay that makes it inherently inferior for evading. It’s a disengaging skill.

And we haven’t got quite a bit of cripples. You have a chill on axe, and a cripple on offhand dagger. A very short cripple on melee auto.

The axe projectiles are really slow and easy to dodge, so that chill barely lands on someone competent, and crippling talon is similarly slow, and for snares that have easily 10+ sec cd’s, opponents have a fair amount of condition removal in case they do not dodge them.

The pet is easily half a BM ranger’s damage, and effectively more if we’re talking about classes with massive condition removal like eles, so when a pet gets so easily kited, you pretty much do nothing..

You’re also looking at the effectiveness of these evades on a regen bunker, when these evades don’t come close to helping the mediocre state of glass cannon or offensive rangers (which don’t exist outside longbow noobs in wvw sitting behind a zerg).

BM bunker rangers exist because it’s the only viable spec outside trapper, which is also a defensive condition build.

Power build rangers are extinct because they don’t have a way of dealing with boons — they can’t steal them and they don’t have sick raw damage like warrior to mow through boons. Power builds are completely dead for a ranger since their direct damage coefficients are halved because of the pet existing, while condition damage is not halved.

Zenith.7301:

Poxxia.1547:

Zenith.7301:

Poxxia.1547:

Two classes stand out to me in this regard: Rangers and Thieves. Evades and dodges … and teleports to some degree is imho for these two ott.

Ranger has 2 evades, one with a slight delay time, and both on a 10+ sec cd.

Rangers have no burst. No, really, a 6k hit from a pet that can be kited 24/7 with swiftness is not burst.

Rangers outlast, and if you don’t give them the tools to outlast, they are useless. Because they don’t do any damage besides conditions — which take time to kill vs. thief.

First: I play a ranger (along with other classes) … even if my main is now a guardian.
I consider S/D viable, and hence I can count 3: Hornet sting on 8s CD, Serpent’s strike on 15s CD and Stalker’s Strike on 10s CD (8s with Off-hand Training, which I consider a viable trait for BM when playing condi’s).
Not to mention how good HS+ML is at escaping for a skill on such short CD.

I think you hint at S/D-thieves … and I consider them more silly than rangers atm, so using them as measure for the viability of us, is not exactly the best imho.

Pets can idd be kited, but we can equally apply quite a bit of cripple. I don’t usually have that issue with pets hitting my target with the build I use atm, though. But apart from that: It is a whole different discussion. The fact, that we are tied to a rather stupid AI, doesn’t justify, that we have access to an excessive amount of evades … imho.

Hornet Sting has a delay that makes it inherently inferior for evading. It’s a disengaging skill.

And we haven’t got quite a bit of cripples. You have a chill on axe, and a cripple on offhand dagger. A very short cripple on melee auto.

The axe projectiles are really slow and easy to dodge, so that chill barely lands on someone competent, and crippling talon is similarly slow, and for snares that have easily 10+ sec cd’s, opponents have a fair amount of condition removal in case they do not dodge them.

The pet is easily half a BM ranger’s damage, and effectively more if we’re talking about classes with massive condition removal like eles, so when a pet gets so easily kited, you pretty much do nothing..

You’re also looking at the effectiveness of these evades on a regen bunker, when these evades don’t come close to helping the mediocre state of glass cannon or offensive rangers (which don’t exist outside longbow noobs in wvw sitting behind a zerg).

BM bunker rangers exist because it’s the only viable spec outside trapper, which is also a defensive condition build.

Power build rangers are extinct because they don’t have a way of dealing with boons — they can’t steal them and they don’t have sick raw damage like warrior to mow through boons. Power builds are completely dead for a ranger since their direct damage coefficients are halved because of the pet existing, while condition damage is not halved.

Players won’t understand. Most people want it to be easy, its the reason why so many plays are still rolling there face across the keyboard.

E.g. how to play a d/d ele first get your face place it on your keyboard start rolling look back up after 5 mins count the bodies…..

That used to work when people were still fresh at classes but everyone has gotten smarter, so the face roll tactic doesn’t work.

Flaming starts in 3… 2…. 1…….

Sol.4310:

Well I believe next patch they are nerfing the pet damage, which I’m fine with I don’t run BM build very often in TPvP, I hate having to camp home point all game.

So after that balance change hopefully things will change.

i kinda want the ranger to get a damage buff.

My shield reflect arrows which means they will kill themselves faster.

Really, the whole profession need a look at. They dont bring enough offensive support to the table to make them useful in group settings

I think the OPness come from all traits that give extra effects to dodge rolling.

Zenith.7301:

Poxxia.1547:

Zenith.7301:

Poxxia.1547:

Two classes stand out to me in this regard: Rangers and Thieves. Evades and dodges … and teleports to some degree is imho for these two ott.

Ranger has 2 evades, one with a slight delay time, and both on a 10+ sec cd.

Rangers have no burst. No, really, a 6k hit from a pet that can be kited 24/7 with swiftness is not burst.

Rangers outlast, and if you don’t give them the tools to outlast, they are useless. Because they don’t do any damage besides conditions — which take time to kill vs. thief.

First: I play a ranger (along with other classes) … even if my main is now a guardian.
I consider S/D viable, and hence I can count 3: Hornet sting on 8s CD, Serpent’s strike on 15s CD and Stalker’s Strike on 10s CD (8s with Off-hand Training, which I consider a viable trait for BM when playing condi’s).
Not to mention how good HS+ML is at escaping for a skill on such short CD.

I think you hint at S/D-thieves … and I consider them more silly than rangers atm, so using them as measure for the viability of us, is not exactly the best imho.

Pets can idd be kited, but we can equally apply quite a bit of cripple. I don’t usually have that issue with pets hitting my target with the build I use atm, though. But apart from that: It is a whole different discussion. The fact, that we are tied to a rather stupid AI, doesn’t justify, that we have access to an excessive amount of evades … imho.

Hornet Sting has a delay that makes it inherently inferior for evading. It’s a disengaging skill.

And we haven’t got quite a bit of cripples. You have a chill on axe, and a cripple on offhand dagger. A very short cripple on melee auto.

The axe projectiles are really slow and easy to dodge, so that chill barely lands on someone competent, and crippling talon is similarly slow, and for snares that have easily 10+ sec cd’s, opponents have a fair amount of condition removal in case they do not dodge them.

The pet is easily half a BM ranger’s damage, and effectively more if we’re talking about classes with massive condition removal like eles, so when a pet gets so easily kited, you pretty much do nothing..

You’re also looking at the effectiveness of these evades on a regen bunker, when these evades don’t come close to helping the mediocre state of glass cannon or offensive rangers (which don’t exist outside longbow noobs in wvw sitting behind a zerg).

BM bunker rangers exist because it’s the only viable spec outside trapper, which is also a defensive condition build.

Power build rangers are extinct because they don’t have a way of dealing with boons — they can’t steal them and they don’t have sick raw damage like warrior to mow through boons. Power builds are completely dead for a ranger since their direct damage coefficients are halved because of the pet existing, while condition damage is not halved.

Completely agree, that the delay on HS makes it inferior for pure evading when cornered. But if used in a different manner it can do much more than disengaging.
So yeah, the axe and dagger is dodgeable … personally I can find other things I would rather dodge. It is the same as saying a lot of other things can be dodged .. if you have infinite endurance. I don’t have that .. do you?

Understand me correctly: I more than anything wants a change to rangers into rangers being more versatile. I used to play shutdown-ranger or spirit-trapper. Builds I really miss in this game. How can you blame me for taking the BM-perspective btw … I find trapper to be inferior to engineer (well, at least it was … not sure abt now)? I am just saying, that the evades on S/D for both thief and rangers result in a mindless style of playing. I couldn’t agree more abt power-speccs, but more than that, I miss spirits.

I am thinking if traps and spirits could be implemented in a way similar to engineers. I have completely moved away from ranger more or less due to it’s limitations; I would switch the gimmickness of S/D for something more enjoyable and complex.

I should perhaps note, that I ended up finding a BM-build that I liked more, than the traditional A/T+S/D.

I do btw not find BM-rangers to be the biggest offender in any way … on the contrary, they are easy to lock down. But I find S/D to be a tad cheesy … that’s it

Well, engineer is better for aoe condi application. Trapper ranger has better cc than grenadier engineer — spike trap, aoe fear from wolf, knockdown from wolf, and haste on pet swap. Long lasting water field that removes conditions.

The engineer might be better just because he’s more specialized, and quite frankly engineer condi application needs nerfing or the other classes need better condi application and variety.

Engineers have better baseline access to confusion than mesmers, and bring some of the best burning to boot.

Zenith.7301:

Well, engineer is better for aoe condi application. Trapper ranger has better cc than grenadier engineer — spike trap, aoe fear from wolf, knockdown from wolf, and haste on pet swap. Long lasting water field that removes conditions.

The engineer might be better just because he’s more specialized, and quite frankly engineer condi application needs nerfing or the other classes need better condi application and variety.

Engineers have better baseline access to confusion than mesmers, and bring some of the best burning to boot.

One note: HS might be a disengaging tool, but as I said, it has many uses (as you are most likely aware of), but even so: Even if we disengage, our hardest hitting tool is still hitting away (talking from BM-perspective ofc).

sorrow.2364:

Man, you are talking about perma vigor given to professions like Guardian, Mesmers and Elementalists like they don’t have any other defensive mechanic.

It’s kinda ok when a Thief, which doesn’t really have any other defensive mechanics, have more dodges than other professions. But it is sad when Elementalists, with all their boons, damage mitigation skills and heals have their ridicolous access to vigor too. Same we can say about Mesmers (with their 20% invulnerability uptime thanks to BF), stealth, clones and boons or Guardians.

If you don’t see the problem, you might want to try out the Necromancer.

Nerf is not the reason of why people stop playing this game. Nerfs are the reason of why people keep playing it. Just imagine if Thieves did not get their nerfs. Hell, we would still see instagibs thieves all around tournaments, hotjoins and WvWvW. Nerfs are needed as are buffs. Your vision of balance is incredibly spoilt.

Fast dynamic doesn’t mean spamming dodges. Spamming dodges mean just… spamming dodges. It is harmful to the competitive side of this game.
The game needs to reward well timed dodges, not people who just get their endurance bar always empty and when dodges are that easy to access, they usually reward the latter kind of players.

This is a very competent statement, and it pleases me.

loseridoit.2756:

Sol.4310:

\

I don’t mean to impose on your skill or anything like that I meant what I as a general comment, what I’m trying to get at is not all builds will counter all builds. You might have a solid spec and be good player, but there is no such thing as 1 build beats them all. There are fair few builds out there for classes that beat the BM/Bunker, none of this draw stuff.

So why not run them builds or them classes as they are the counter. If you can’t do it with your current build don’t try.

Also, if your drawing with someone on point fight your not being every effective to your team at all…. If anything your wasting your time fighting that point when you could be supporting your team and taking a different point.

my build is quite different. It bring group condition removal, aoe cc and enough dps to down any enemy.

I have to test it out with a premade team to understand my build in team effectiveness. however, I should be able to stand a chance on most 1 vs 1 encounters. To give you an idea of the horrible bm ranger i fought against and still lost, I traited my shield to reflect and most of them dont realize they are killing themselves until the end of the channel…..

my problem with the build is that damage is too high to be a bunker. I want the player to work at downing the enemy rather than the pet does it for them.

Oh well, I hope anet rework the class because they do not scale well against multiple enemies

The fact that you think the BM ranger is bad because he kept shooting you while reflect up is rather funny….He probably just didn’t notice it because if he’s a BM ranger and using a shortbow, He probably is doing less then 200 damage a shot to himself…

Your build is probably just bad for fighting BM Rangers, that’s generally how Builds are…they have counters….

P/D thief is a good example, Its incredibly powerful against some builds, put it against a D/P thief though, and it’ll get jacked.

A player spamming dodges is very bad..but a player unable to capitalize on opponents who waste dodges…he’s even worst.

That’s funny, my main method of transportation on my Thief was dodge roll.

Xsorus.2507:

loseridoit.2756:

Sol.4310:

\

I don’t mean to impose on your skill or anything like that I meant what I as a general comment, what I’m trying to get at is not all builds will counter all builds. You might have a solid spec and be good player, but there is no such thing as 1 build beats them all. There are fair few builds out there for classes that beat the BM/Bunker, none of this draw stuff.

So why not run them builds or them classes as they are the counter. If you can’t do it with your current build don’t try.

Also, if your drawing with someone on point fight your not being every effective to your team at all…. If anything your wasting your time fighting that point when you could be supporting your team and taking a different point.

my build is quite different. It bring group condition removal, aoe cc and enough dps to down any enemy.

I have to test it out with a premade team to understand my build in team effectiveness. however, I should be able to stand a chance on most 1 vs 1 encounters. To give you an idea of the horrible bm ranger i fought against and still lost, I traited my shield to reflect and most of them dont realize they are killing themselves until the end of the channel…..

my problem with the build is that damage is too high to be a bunker. I want the player to work at downing the enemy rather than the pet does it for them.

Oh well, I hope anet rework the class because they do not scale well against multiple enemies

The fact that you think the BM ranger is bad because he kept shooting you while reflect up is rather funny….He probably just didn’t notice it because if he’s a BM ranger and using a shortbow, He probably is doing less then 200 damage a shot to himself…

Your build is probably just bad for fighting BM Rangers, that’s generally how Builds are…they have counters….

P/D thief is a good example, Its incredibly powerful against some builds, put it against a D/P thief though, and it’ll get jacked.

Same goes for S/D thief. S/D thief gets rocked by something he can’t target and has the best blind field ingame.

S/D is just faster killing bunkers, and that’s why it is being used. But a good D/P thief with shadow arts can pretty much take anyone on and have a chance at winning, while hardcountering any glass cannon or non-bunker builds with possibly phantasm mesmer as an exception.

The problem with thieves is that they’ve got pretty low cooldowns on their best abilities due to the initiative system, and stealth is broken outside point capture as a defensive measure. It allows you to pretty much stop someone’s offense while giving you a backstab that in WvW can crit bunkers for 5-6k and easily 9k on non-bunkers.

And due to the nature of initiative you can use your burst and stealth much more often than other people can use their defensive skills and burst rotations.

dodge rolling is OK, evade on weapon is too much. spam them evades

evade evade evade evade evade

Of course you don’t want dodge rolling nerfed, because a dodge roll nerf would hurt you as well, you want to have your cake and eat it all too. It’s ok, you’re a bad player and I forgive you.

sorrow.2364:

Every profession except Warrior and Necromancer have pretty much permanent access to vigor.

- Engineers: vigor on swiftness, random from elixirs, 50% endurance regen via trait
- Elementalist: Renewing Stamina (perma vigor almost), vigorous scepter, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Mesmer: Critical Infusion (just like Renewing Stamina) plus multiple invulnerabilities via skills
- Ranger: faster endurance regen, primal reflexes and Vigorous Renewal, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Thief: everybody knows
- Guardian: Vigorous Precision (just like Critical Infusion adn Renewing Stamina)

Only Necromancers have no access to any form of active damage mitigation mechanics and ArenaNet doesn’t want to give them some tools because they don’t want them to become OP.
Well, yeah…

Don’t know about necros, but warrior warhorn gives vigor, and so does the trait vigorous stance. Not to mention greatsword skill #3 is an evade.

Also, there are only 2 skills that are dodges as an ele, updraft (off hand dagger) and burning retreat (Staff), so they only have 1 extra evade in combat.

Maybe a new condition should punish dodge rolling?

Siric.3589:

Evasion skills don’t need to be removed. The CD’s need to be increased and the skills themselves made more impactful. A good example of a well degisned evasive skill is ele’s updraft. Its a kockback, swiftness, and evade, but on a long CD. Eles dont spam this skill to evade when endurance is low, they use it for setting up combos and for coutnering burst ect.

It shouldn’t be the case that rangers have 50% endurance regen, High Vigor upkeep, sigilis of energy, and low cd evasive skills. As it is right now evasive skills are used in the small window that you’re not dodge roll spamming. Rather than evasion skills being used in reaction to a read you get off your oppenent they are just used to fill the gaps that you cant dodge.

yisss long cd high impact pls +1+1+1

also vigor on crit traits are ridiculously op.

The new condition coming on the 25th, Torment, I think will tone these high evasion builds down

Have you guys seen this video? High-evasive SB/SB thief _
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qehdmw1xRjo